Pacquiao's Physical Attributes

Manny lost punching power...? After reading a few posts regarding Manny's performance against Rios, I wonder if I viewed the same fight or members that post don't take into account the essential facts. Anyone knowing boxing knows as a fighter considered past his prime starts losing physical attributes, but power is near the last to go. If a fighter loses a great amount of speed, then naturally less force will take place. Manny didn't appear slow.
Manny is barely a natural lightweight (his majority of fights were flyweight [112lbs], bantamweight [118lbs], and featherweight [126lbs]). His very rare incredible physical attributes have allowed him to fight higher weights.
Pacquiao did not fight lightweight [135lbs] until just prior to turning thirty years of age. Manny has had eight bouts since moving to welterweight (not including the De La Hoya bout). His first welterweight bout he fought Cotto (just prior, Cotto lost a vicious bout against Mararito and the "hand wraps of plaster" allegations that appear to be true, and he fought a twelve round war against Clottey who lacked offensive skills but appeared indestructible even despite injuring his knee badly very early in the fight) and destroyed the under-matched Cotto to a degree that many people wanted it stopped after the ninth round. Manny won a 12th round TKO.
His next seven fights all went 12 rounds, except when he was KO'd by Marquez with one punch, despite he was starting to gain momentum. Manny’s history shows him fighting at just over a hundred pounds starting out, but despite his freakish athletic attributes there remains a weight where a fighter is considered at his best and natural weight. At 126lbs he was beyond freakishly strong, at 135lbs he was extremely dominant despite having the worst boxing fundamentals and technique (one handed and terrible footwork). At 142lbs I feel he still has enough power to be dominant. Now, at 147lbs, he still has power but his larger opponents he has fought are champions or contenders that are use to that type power. Unfortunately, big money fights were at weight classes not suited for his best (especially a fighter who relies heavily on physical attributes and offense, rather than a ring technician or defense first fighter). Big money matches are a dilemma for many fighters that have to fight at non-optimal weights.
In summary, Manny does not have freakish or even great punching power for a welterweight [147lbs]. Manny still appears fast with quick reflexes and hard punching thrown in combinations. The record shows Manny has been a very good welterweight. People want to see the Manny that destroyed Hatton, Oscar, Diaz and Morales (rematch and trilogy; Morales the great ring technician beat the one-handed slugger). Those fights were (besides Oscar) were at 130lbs, 135lbs and 142lbs. Even the Oscar fight was stopped as Oscar could not adjust to the speed, but Oscar was on his feet and never dazed despite such a once sided beating.

For the astute fan there is nothing new or of great insight here, just a breakdown to new comers and the common members who post outrageous unjustified claims as they KNOW-IT-ALL!
Thanks to Cover’s members who write credible informative posts.

Nice one FIXZER  this is what we need in boxing forum ....

I understand your point. Rios is a big frame for a lightweight (has never suffered a KO or stoppage), and someone's ability to take punches usually doesn't depend on their size (weight). As I mentioned a fighter's history, Pacquiao is coming off two straight losses (against Bradley that was a bad decision), against Marquez and the way he was hit always has an effect. Manny was clearly using speed and combinations to the body as well. I believe this fight he was looking to win impressively by utilizing his speed advantage and using caution (unlike when he was trying to finish Marquez and got caught perfect for a KO). Although these types of knockouts are surprising and look devastating, after a fight or so after a loss like that most fighters regain their form. It is those vicious long round beatings that leave a short career and long term brain damage to boxers. One last thought, just because a fighter moving up in weight doesn't carry the type of power over opponents that was previous is not synontmouos with a fighter moving up and his ability to take a bigger punch. Thanks for the input as I felt someone might bring up this point.

wallet: You raised a very important question regarding moving up in weight. So, in no way am I making assumptions regarding your knowledge or abilities, but a further explanation to any readers that might find it useful or entertaining.

Handicapping is a science/art, but being able to adjust and determine what information has relevance and how much relevance to place on a particular piece of information (or what is weighted ranking). A simple analogy to your question is a common one taught in many decision making (or structured analysis) books or courses. The analogy "When Joe wears black pants he always wears a white shirt." This allows a follow-up question such as "Joe was wearing a white shirt and his pants were (what color?)..", and the immediate assumption is black. He could be wearing any color because the statement is not reversible....

... Our natural biases in life have us jump to conclusions before even considering a structured analysis and alternatives. Analysis means to separate something in to its constituent elements (or making complex issues in to their simplest forms). Then when you structure each element it allows us 1) helps the mind make sense out of complexity 2) allows us to compare and weigh each element vs another 3) helps us focus our analysis 4) structuring focuses one element at a time 5) simplify and separating elements allows less bias to take precedence in our analysis 6) using structure methods strips our bias and shows us less perception and more reality and 7) once methods are applied and data is simple and accurate, and has been analyzed using methods, our intuition is now our strength in determining what the methods lacked instead of our intuition leading us from the start into compounding errors.

My apologies for the extensive rambling, I'm quite sure most handicappers and other are aware of what I posted. Sometimes I follow-up in great detail, but only in the means of co-operative spirit. After a long career handicapping, setting lines, and money management (bankroll, separating it by sport, or middling games, having as many sportsbooks to get the best lines, when to bet and risk vs reward on how long your money is tied up, percentage of BR wagers, and so on...).

Middling games with points spreads is something you would prefer to have a separate bankroll for especially if you middle money lines that give you an automatic win but predicting which way the money will go is a major part. In the early 2000s, many sportsbooks had boxing lines like -220/+180 and others -300/+250 (-320 to win 30 one way, or an auto win split and you receive on 15 (5%, which is automatic win unless the fight gets cancelled, a NC or a draw, etc., all these risks and more to take in to account). Normally only major boxing events (allowing more money to be wagered and most sportsbooks offering lines; offshore mainly) so you had to bet early, and later if needed. You also had to put up a huge amount to win a small amount so the only factors were the sportsbooks paying you, and if that was not an issue then having a substantial amount of your money tied-up for three months might not be best suited if your bankroll was short and other options were more lucrative.

The Ramble is over... for now ()!

Thanks MIXED_NUTS! Anyone else has any thoughts regarding my views Pacquiao, Rios or how moving up in class might effect your punching power, but is not synonymous with being able to take a punch. Yes, a smaller frame guy who can't carry a punch is looking for trouble from bigger guys with bigger punches, and maybe half the times those two criteria go together, but because of the way the fight goes. For instance, a guy moving up with now weak punching power, is going to take more abuse as he is not able to keep a fighter (especially with a strong punch) from dominating. The only way is speed and movement. In the end, the little guy is beat up because his lack of power had no respect by the opponent, and therefore he is taking more punches and harder shots than usual. A punchers chin is not determined by his size, but when moving up another physical factor plays a major role. Height and reach. Little guy moving up is going to be fighting taller fighters with bigger reach and greater ability to lean back and avoid punches, therefore another factor negating power especially when you punch upwards instead of straight on. The bigger opponent fighting downward will have the edge in power as he is bring punches down in a natural motion.

Just a few more thoughts. I welcome and appreciate any response, even those who disagree (Devil's Advocate is a great debating way to learn and also create new theories when the mind is challenged.)

Someone noted that many past boxing handicappers don't post here anymore and I can see why now with a few very discouraging members, and a few others making false claims. It really hurts a forums credibility and I just would like a shout out (reply), from those interested in returning if changes can be made to moderate unrelated and fictitious statements. I'm sure they tried, but it seems the support was not provided. I will post this on a new thread so any previous members that read but don't post might be willing to give it another attempt. Thanks for the support.