Brand new to sportsbetting here, and it looks like a typical spread bet can have the following characteristics, if not more:
A team/side/opponent who is the Favorite
A team/side/opponent who is the Underdog
A spread (to be applied to the Underdog's score)
Odds for both Favorite and Underdog (different systems exist here, such as American, Fractional/UK and Decimal/European)
A few questions here:
Will odds for the Favorite always negate the odds for the Underdog? Meaning if you add the odds together you'll get zero (0)? So if the odds for the Favorite or -110 (American system), will the Underdog's odds always be +110? If not, why?
Is there a mathematical relationship between the spread and the odds? Or is the spread determined manually based on subective opinion and the odds determined using a different (unrelated) manner?
Is there a way to convert between the different odds system? For instance if I know the American system odds for Team A in Event E are -110, is there a way to convert that to the Fractional/UK or Decimal/European systems?
Thanks in advance for any-and-all help here!
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To remove first post, remove entire topic.
Brand new to sportsbetting here, and it looks like a typical spread bet can have the following characteristics, if not more:
A team/side/opponent who is the Favorite
A team/side/opponent who is the Underdog
A spread (to be applied to the Underdog's score)
Odds for both Favorite and Underdog (different systems exist here, such as American, Fractional/UK and Decimal/European)
A few questions here:
Will odds for the Favorite always negate the odds for the Underdog? Meaning if you add the odds together you'll get zero (0)? So if the odds for the Favorite or -110 (American system), will the Underdog's odds always be +110? If not, why?
Is there a mathematical relationship between the spread and the odds? Or is the spread determined manually based on subective opinion and the odds determined using a different (unrelated) manner?
Is there a way to convert between the different odds system? For instance if I know the American system odds for Team A in Event E are -110, is there a way to convert that to the Fractional/UK or Decimal/European systems?
1. No, the numbers will always be different because the bookmaker keeps the "juice" which is usually 10% of the bet. You will see -110 for both sides of a bet.
2. Not and exact relationship but it is pretty close. It will be adjusted for various reasons. Usually a home team's odds to win will be higher than a road teams at the same spread.
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1. No, the numbers will always be different because the bookmaker keeps the "juice" which is usually 10% of the bet. You will see -110 for both sides of a bet.
2. Not and exact relationship but it is pretty close. It will be adjusted for various reasons. Usually a home team's odds to win will be higher than a road teams at the same spread.
Answer to #1 is no. If you add the odds together you'll usually NOT get zero. Reason being you must factor in the "vig" or the bookie's profit. It also depends on the sport you are wagering. Money Line (ML) is used in sports like Baseball, Hockey, Tennis, etc. Very rarely do odds on these sports equal "zero" because you'll not have opponents exactly equal. For example, if you bet the ML in baseball you might see the favorite at -135 and the underdog at +125. This is commonly referred to as a "Dime" line. Theoretically the bookie wishes to take equal action on both sides and keep 10% as his profit for booking the action.
Conversely other sports like Basketball and Football use a "Point Spread" (but also offer a ML). As action progresses towards the start of a contest the spread adjusts to keep the wagering as equal as possible on both sides. For example the opening spread in a basketball game may be the favorite -3 points. If the bookie sees too much action coming in on the favorite he will adjust the spread to -4 which SHOULD attract more wagers on the underdog. In this scenario the +110 & -110 remains constant (as you suggested above).
If you are wagering on Basketball or Football or any sport that employs a Point Spread you should look for bookies that offer "Reduced Juice". Instead of paying -110 you can find -108 or -105. Doesn't sound like much but over the course of a season can separate the Winners from the Losers.
Hope that helps.
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
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Answer to #1 is no. If you add the odds together you'll usually NOT get zero. Reason being you must factor in the "vig" or the bookie's profit. It also depends on the sport you are wagering. Money Line (ML) is used in sports like Baseball, Hockey, Tennis, etc. Very rarely do odds on these sports equal "zero" because you'll not have opponents exactly equal. For example, if you bet the ML in baseball you might see the favorite at -135 and the underdog at +125. This is commonly referred to as a "Dime" line. Theoretically the bookie wishes to take equal action on both sides and keep 10% as his profit for booking the action.
Conversely other sports like Basketball and Football use a "Point Spread" (but also offer a ML). As action progresses towards the start of a contest the spread adjusts to keep the wagering as equal as possible on both sides. For example the opening spread in a basketball game may be the favorite -3 points. If the bookie sees too much action coming in on the favorite he will adjust the spread to -4 which SHOULD attract more wagers on the underdog. In this scenario the +110 & -110 remains constant (as you suggested above).
If you are wagering on Basketball or Football or any sport that employs a Point Spread you should look for bookies that offer "Reduced Juice". Instead of paying -110 you can find -108 or -105. Doesn't sound like much but over the course of a season can separate the Winners from the Losers.
Thanks a million @GoldenGoose, a few quick followup questions to ease my tiny pea brain, if you don't mind!
In your first paragraph above you say: "For example, if you bet the ML in baseball you might see the favorite at
-135 and the underdog at +125. This is commonly referred to as a
"Dime" line. Theoretically the bookie wishes to take equal action on
both sides and keep 10% as his profit for booking the action."
I'm struggling to understand the math here. So in that example, if I understand ML correctly, that means that if I wanted to bet on the Favorite I'd need to bet $135 to win $100 (for a total of $235). And if I wanted to bet on the Underdog I'd need to bet $100 to possibly win $125 (for a total of $225).
So let's say Better B1 bets on the Favorite: they pay the bookie $135; conversely Better B2 bets on the Underdog and pays the bookie $100. The bookie now has $235 "in his/her pocket".
Say the Favorite wins, so B1 needs to be paid $235 and both the bookie and B2 lose all their money.
Say the Underdog wins, so B2 needs to be paid $225, B1 gets nothing, and the bookie retains $10 ($10 / $235 = ~4.2%).
But I'm still not seeing where the bookie makes a 10% vig/juice/commission in either situation, can you help me out here (I'm sure I'm just not understanding something fundamental here!)?
Also, just as important, does this imply that the bookie always breaks even when the Favorite wins, and only makes money when the Underdog wins?
Thanks again!
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Thanks a million @GoldenGoose, a few quick followup questions to ease my tiny pea brain, if you don't mind!
In your first paragraph above you say: "For example, if you bet the ML in baseball you might see the favorite at
-135 and the underdog at +125. This is commonly referred to as a
"Dime" line. Theoretically the bookie wishes to take equal action on
both sides and keep 10% as his profit for booking the action."
I'm struggling to understand the math here. So in that example, if I understand ML correctly, that means that if I wanted to bet on the Favorite I'd need to bet $135 to win $100 (for a total of $235). And if I wanted to bet on the Underdog I'd need to bet $100 to possibly win $125 (for a total of $225).
So let's say Better B1 bets on the Favorite: they pay the bookie $135; conversely Better B2 bets on the Underdog and pays the bookie $100. The bookie now has $235 "in his/her pocket".
Say the Favorite wins, so B1 needs to be paid $235 and both the bookie and B2 lose all their money.
Say the Underdog wins, so B2 needs to be paid $225, B1 gets nothing, and the bookie retains $10 ($10 / $235 = ~4.2%).
But I'm still not seeing where the bookie makes a 10% vig/juice/commission in either situation, can you help me out here (I'm sure I'm just not understanding something fundamental here!)?
Also, just as important, does this imply that the bookie always breaks even when the Favorite wins, and only makes money when the Underdog wins?
You're not missing anything. You understand the concept. While it's true the bookie can sometimes make no vig on a small ML when the underdog wins in the above example (on Dime Lines), he does make money either way on larger ML lines.
As the odds increase you begin to see a larger gap in the listed odds. For instance, a baseball game might have the favorite at -200 and the underdog at +180. Bookie guaranteed to make $20 in this scenario.
A lot of times when contests are expected to be close you might see a small favorite at -115 and the underdog -105. Bookie is guaranteed to make a vig no matter who wins IF the action is equal on both sides.
You've just learned one of the most important concepts in sports handicapping...
Shop around with three or four books and ALWAYS get your best line!!!
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
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You're not missing anything. You understand the concept. While it's true the bookie can sometimes make no vig on a small ML when the underdog wins in the above example (on Dime Lines), he does make money either way on larger ML lines.
As the odds increase you begin to see a larger gap in the listed odds. For instance, a baseball game might have the favorite at -200 and the underdog at +180. Bookie guaranteed to make $20 in this scenario.
A lot of times when contests are expected to be close you might see a small favorite at -115 and the underdog -105. Bookie is guaranteed to make a vig no matter who wins IF the action is equal on both sides.
You've just learned one of the most important concepts in sports handicapping...
Shop around with three or four books and ALWAYS get your best line!!!
Thanks again @TheGoldenGoose and I appreciate your vote of confidence, but I'm still not feeling like I'm grasping all of this. Would you mind just checking my math on one last thing?!
In your last example you said Favorite is -200 and Underdog is +180 but that the bookie makes $20 no matter what...
Better B1 bets $200 on Favorite (to win a possible $100)
Better B2 bets $100 on Underdog (to win a possible $180)
Bookie now has $300 from those 2 betters
If Underdog wins, so bookie pays B2 $280 and keeps the $20 you mentioned, but...
If Favorite wins, bookie pays B1 $300 and now has nothing (so no $20...)
In your scenario, how does the bookie win if Favorite wins?
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Thanks again @TheGoldenGoose and I appreciate your vote of confidence, but I'm still not feeling like I'm grasping all of this. Would you mind just checking my math on one last thing?!
In your last example you said Favorite is -200 and Underdog is +180 but that the bookie makes $20 no matter what...
Better B1 bets $200 on Favorite (to win a possible $100)
Better B2 bets $100 on Underdog (to win a possible $180)
Bookie now has $300 from those 2 betters
If Underdog wins, so bookie pays B2 $280 and keeps the $20 you mentioned, but...
If Favorite wins, bookie pays B1 $300 and now has nothing (so no $20...)
In your scenario, how does the bookie win if Favorite wins?
What if the bookie limited his action on the contest to 48% of the total money coming into him wagering on the Favorite and 52% of the total coming into him wagering on the Underdog?
Is he then guaranteed to make money either way on this contest?
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
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Favorite -200 Underdog +180
What if the bookie limited his action on the contest to 48% of the total money coming into him wagering on the Favorite and 52% of the total coming into him wagering on the Underdog?
Is he then guaranteed to make money either way on this contest?
OK may we're at the root of my confusion: what does it mean for the bookie to "limit his action on a contest to 48%", do you mind giving me an example? I think thats the key to me understanding all of this...
Thanks again!
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OK may we're at the root of my confusion: what does it mean for the bookie to "limit his action on a contest to 48%", do you mind giving me an example? I think thats the key to me understanding all of this...
A good bookie is "connected". He has places to dump extra money coming in on one side. This is called "laying off" action. By doing so he can guarantee himself a vig profit on any contest.
A bad bookie gets greedy and holds all the action. This is why you hear of bookies going bust. They get too greedy and refuse to lay off any action.
Let's use the above example of a -200 favorite and +180 underdog. Assume the -200 favorite is the Dodgers playing at home against the +180 underdog visiting Phillies. The bookie in Los Angeles gets swamped with action on his home team Dodgers. All he needs to do is pick up the phone and call his connection in Philadelphia who is probably swamped with wagers on his home team Phillies. They decide how much action to lay off to each other and both are protected from a disaster.
Do the math on the above example of the 48% favorite action / 52% underdog action and you'll see how the bookie makes his vig profit no matter who wins the contest.
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
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A good bookie is "connected". He has places to dump extra money coming in on one side. This is called "laying off" action. By doing so he can guarantee himself a vig profit on any contest.
A bad bookie gets greedy and holds all the action. This is why you hear of bookies going bust. They get too greedy and refuse to lay off any action.
Let's use the above example of a -200 favorite and +180 underdog. Assume the -200 favorite is the Dodgers playing at home against the +180 underdog visiting Phillies. The bookie in Los Angeles gets swamped with action on his home team Dodgers. All he needs to do is pick up the phone and call his connection in Philadelphia who is probably swamped with wagers on his home team Phillies. They decide how much action to lay off to each other and both are protected from a disaster.
Do the math on the above example of the 48% favorite action / 52% underdog action and you'll see how the bookie makes his vig profit no matter who wins the contest.
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