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    All Forums | Investments

    Jim Kramer on Hardball friday

    LeRinkRat
    thegambler711
    claycourtlesson
    Gridophiles
    depeche2
    ...
    Participants:
    Search
    Views: 553
    Posts: 22
     
    LeRinkRat
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 12:26 AM ET #1

    now I usually fade Blady's stock picks BUT he really made some good points about this being the most scary bear market of his lifetime. he predicts that mortgage insurers like MBIA, AMBAC, PMI and MGIG could soon be broke form covering bank and mortgage broker losses and says that if that happens, the DOW could lose 2000 points in a day.
     
    says that all of the Fed and Treasuries "emergency actions" are too little too late, which I agree with.
     
    wonder if there is a Financial "short" ETF like the QID for the QQQQ's and the SDS for the SPY?
    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    now I usually fade Blady's stock picks BUT he really made some good points about this being the most scary bear market of his lifetime. he predicts that mortgage insurers like MBIA, AMBAC, PMI and MGIG could soon be broke form covering bank and mortgage broker losses and says that if that happens, the DOW could lose 2000 points in a day.
     
    says that all of the Fed and Treasuries "emergency actions" are too little too late, which I agree with.
     
    wonder if there is a Financial "short" ETF like the QID for the QQQQ's and the SDS for the SPY?
     
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 12:47 AM ET #2

    and here's the business news that pops up today on my ISP's web page.......
     

    Ambac Downgraded, Cities Seen at Risk

    2008-01-19 06:45:38
    By STEPHEN BERNARD and LESLIE WINES AP Business Writers


    NEW YORK (AP) — A downgrade of bond insurer Ambac Financial Group Inc. is likely to have far-reaching effects, making it more difficult for cities to issue new bonds and forcing further write-downs at financial services companies, analysts said Friday.

    After Ambac scrapped plans to raise $1 billion in capital, Fitch Ratings cut the company's crucial financial strength rating to "AA" from "AAA."

    The downgrade likely means Ambac will not underwrite any more business, said John Flahive, director of fixed income for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. Market prices of existing bonds insured by Ambac and MBIA Inc. were trading lower before the downgrade, and Flahive suggested any downgrade could accelerate the decline.

    Ambac and chief competitor MBIA together insure $700 billion in municipal bonds, and MBIA's "AAA" rating is also under threat. The company issued $1 billion in bonds this week to preserve the rating, though that may not be enough to satisfy the ratings agencies. MBIA said in a statement Friday it intends to keep working toward maintaining its "AAA" rating.

    Since late last year, when the agencies first raised the prospect, analysts have suggested any move to cut Ambac or MBIA below "AAA" could be disastrous. The concern is that downgrades will lead to a reduction in the value of portfolios at dozens of financial institutions, said Donald Light, a senior analyst at Celent LLC.

    "Bond insurers are the lynchpin holding together valuations of portfolios of all kinds of financial institutions," Light said.

    That scenario has already played out at least once, as Merrill Lynch & Co. reduced the value of a portfolio by $3.1 billion because of investments connected to ACA Capital Holdings Inc. ACA, with a much smaller book of business than Ambac or MBIA, was downgraded to junk status by Standard & Poor's last month.

    But while downgrades threaten to send financial services firms further into a tailspin, it will also create huge problems for municipalities.

    Prior to Ambac's downgrade, T.J. Marta, a fixed-income analyst at RBC Capital Markets, said a downgrade of the company would lead to downgrades of all the municipal bonds it insured. Subsequently, it will become more difficult for cities, counties and other local entities to issue debt for building projects, Marta said.

    Several types of municipal issuers will be most vulnerable if they can no longer secure insurance. These are borrowers like small private schools and hospitals that are not backed by a regular tax base or revenue stream. Typically, these entities have had to secure insurance to gain credibility with the public and sell their debt.

    At the very minimum the troubles of the insurers will drive up borrowing costs of cities and other local entities at a time when many are strained by weaker tax revenue, said John Atkins, a fixed-income analyst at IDEAGlobal.com.

    The failures of some bond insurers could open the door for those who do not get downgraded, as municipalities look to minimize borrowing costs.

    "Survivors will get long-term benefit from the near-term volatility," said Steve Stelmach, an analyst at Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co.

    Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway could be one company that gets a boost. Buffett launched a new bond insurance business in December that has a "AAA" credit rating and a solid balance sheet. Buffett's new company also has the benefit of having no questionable loans on its books.

    Late Friday, Fitch also downgraded 420 classes of asset-backed securities transactions supported by a financial guaranty policy provided by a subsidiary of Ambac.

    Reply
    and here's the business news that pops up today on my ISP's web page.......
     

    Ambac Downgraded, Cities Seen at Risk

    2008-01-19 06:45:38
    By STEPHEN BERNARD and LESLIE WINES AP Business Writers


    NEW YORK (AP) — A downgrade of bond insurer Ambac Financial Group Inc. is likely to have far-reaching effects, making it more difficult for cities to issue new bonds and forcing further write-downs at financial services companies, analysts said Friday.

    After Ambac scrapped plans to raise $1 billion in capital, Fitch Ratings cut the company's crucial financial strength rating to "AA" from "AAA."

    The downgrade likely means Ambac will not underwrite any more business, said John Flahive, director of fixed income for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. Market prices of existing bonds insured by Ambac and MBIA Inc. were trading lower before the downgrade, and Flahive suggested any downgrade could accelerate the decline.

    Ambac and chief competitor MBIA together insure $700 billion in municipal bonds, and MBIA's "AAA" rating is also under threat. The company issued $1 billion in bonds this week to preserve the rating, though that may not be enough to satisfy the ratings agencies. MBIA said in a statement Friday it intends to keep working toward maintaining its "AAA" rating.

    Since late last year, when the agencies first raised the prospect, analysts have suggested any move to cut Ambac or MBIA below "AAA" could be disastrous. The concern is that downgrades will lead to a reduction in the value of portfolios at dozens of financial institutions, said Donald Light, a senior analyst at Celent LLC.

    "Bond insurers are the lynchpin holding together valuations of portfolios of all kinds of financial institutions," Light said.

    That scenario has already played out at least once, as Merrill Lynch & Co. reduced the value of a portfolio by $3.1 billion because of investments connected to ACA Capital Holdings Inc. ACA, with a much smaller book of business than Ambac or MBIA, was downgraded to junk status by Standard & Poor's last month.

    But while downgrades threaten to send financial services firms further into a tailspin, it will also create huge problems for municipalities.

    Prior to Ambac's downgrade, T.J. Marta, a fixed-income analyst at RBC Capital Markets, said a downgrade of the company would lead to downgrades of all the municipal bonds it insured. Subsequently, it will become more difficult for cities, counties and other local entities to issue debt for building projects, Marta said.

    Several types of municipal issuers will be most vulnerable if they can no longer secure insurance. These are borrowers like small private schools and hospitals that are not backed by a regular tax base or revenue stream. Typically, these entities have had to secure insurance to gain credibility with the public and sell their debt.

    At the very minimum the troubles of the insurers will drive up borrowing costs of cities and other local entities at a time when many are strained by weaker tax revenue, said John Atkins, a fixed-income analyst at IDEAGlobal.com.

    The failures of some bond insurers could open the door for those who do not get downgraded, as municipalities look to minimize borrowing costs.

    "Survivors will get long-term benefit from the near-term volatility," said Steve Stelmach, an analyst at Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co.

    Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway could be one company that gets a boost. Buffett launched a new bond insurance business in December that has a "AAA" credit rating and a solid balance sheet. Buffett's new company also has the benefit of having no questionable loans on its books.

    Late Friday, Fitch also downgraded 420 classes of asset-backed securities transactions supported by a financial guaranty policy provided by a subsidiary of Ambac.

     
    thegambler711
    thegambler711
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    Posts: 1104
    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 2:12 AM ET #3

    Quote Originally Posted by LeRinkRat:

    now I usually fade Blady's stock picks BUT he really made some good points about this being the most scary bear market of his lifetime. he predicts that mortgage insurers like MBIA, AMBAC, PMI and MGIG could soon be broke form covering bank and mortgage broker losses and says that if that happens, the DOW could lose 2000 points in a day.
     
    says that all of the Fed and Treasuries "emergency actions" are too little too late, which I agree with.
     
    wonder if there is a Financial "short" ETF like the QID for the QQQQ's and the SDS for the SPY?

    SKF? UltraShort Financials ProShares

     

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by LeRinkRat:

    now I usually fade Blady's stock picks BUT he really made some good points about this being the most scary bear market of his lifetime. he predicts that mortgage insurers like MBIA, AMBAC, PMI and MGIG could soon be broke form covering bank and mortgage broker losses and says that if that happens, the DOW could lose 2000 points in a day.
     
    says that all of the Fed and Treasuries "emergency actions" are too little too late, which I agree with.
     
    wonder if there is a Financial "short" ETF like the QID for the QQQQ's and the SDS for the SPY?

    SKF? UltraShort Financials ProShares

     

     
    claycourtlesson
    claycourtlesson
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 2:16 AM ET #4

    Make it easy on yourself.
     
    Short as many shares of Citicorp (C) as you can right now, and then cover when it hits 10-12.
     
    That is pretty much almost a guaranteed lock to happen during this calendar year.
    Reply
    Make it easy on yourself.
     
    Short as many shares of Citicorp (C) as you can right now, and then cover when it hits 10-12.
     
    That is pretty much almost a guaranteed lock to happen during this calendar year.
     
    Gridophiles
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 10:12 AM ET #5

    Rink,
     
    Certainly shorting this market makes a lot of sense right now, and imo, should probably be a part of your portfolio.  Just remember, no investment strategy works forever, and shorting this market has worked for a very long time. 
     
    Some things you should keep in mind however: we have yet had one month of negative growth.  Not saying we won't, but markets look about six months forward, so how much has already been priced in?  I certainly don't have a clue. 
     
    What does concern me however is that in typical recessions, if we are in one, aren't the financials the first to recover? I can't see most of them getting heathly for a very long time, and that scares the hell out of me for this market and the United States in general.  Probably the time to stop shorting the financials will be when the government bails out the mortgage insurers (smells of Chrysler to me), and they will, those simply can not fail or we're all screwed.  I also see tons of M&A's this year in the financial area, which may actually help prop them up somewhat.
     
    One other quick point, be very careful with those ProShares Ultra ETF's.  Those suckers move quick, and in this market it's nothing to lose 10% (or gain) in the matter of a couple hours.  Just speaking from personal experience from being on the wrong side this year.
     
    End of the day, you do what you feel is right, and for me, doing what is right are the things that let me sleep well at night.  Cramer is no smarter than you, wasn't he calling for 14,500 in the Dow a couple months back?  He just knows how to manipulate stocks for his own benefit, at the expense of you and me.
    Reply
    Rink,
     
    Certainly shorting this market makes a lot of sense right now, and imo, should probably be a part of your portfolio.  Just remember, no investment strategy works forever, and shorting this market has worked for a very long time. 
     
    Some things you should keep in mind however: we have yet had one month of negative growth.  Not saying we won't, but markets look about six months forward, so how much has already been priced in?  I certainly don't have a clue. 
     
    What does concern me however is that in typical recessions, if we are in one, aren't the financials the first to recover? I can't see most of them getting heathly for a very long time, and that scares the hell out of me for this market and the United States in general.  Probably the time to stop shorting the financials will be when the government bails out the mortgage insurers (smells of Chrysler to me), and they will, those simply can not fail or we're all screwed.  I also see tons of M&A's this year in the financial area, which may actually help prop them up somewhat.
     
    One other quick point, be very careful with those ProShares Ultra ETF's.  Those suckers move quick, and in this market it's nothing to lose 10% (or gain) in the matter of a couple hours.  Just speaking from personal experience from being on the wrong side this year.
     
    End of the day, you do what you feel is right, and for me, doing what is right are the things that let me sleep well at night.  Cramer is no smarter than you, wasn't he calling for 14,500 in the Dow a couple months back?  He just knows how to manipulate stocks for his own benefit, at the expense of you and me.
     
    depeche2
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 12:02 PM ET #6

    Kramer was saying buy buy buy in October at 14K.  Now the doofus says sell sell sell 3 months later at 12K.  Fade this loser.
    Reply
    Kramer was saying buy buy buy in October at 14K.  Now the doofus says sell sell sell 3 months later at 12K.  Fade this loser.
     
    claycourtlesson
    claycourtlesson
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 12:04 PM ET #7

    I agree, Depeche.
     
    Jim Cramer is a farking icehole who does nothing but tell entertaining lies.  Always has, always will.  Anyone listening to him for anything outside entertainment theatre is foolish.
    Reply
    I agree, Depeche.
     
    Jim Cramer is a farking icehole who does nothing but tell entertaining lies.  Always has, always will.  Anyone listening to him for anything outside entertainment theatre is foolish.
     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 12:49 PM ET #8

    Exactly..

    Good comments.

    Cramerica is a joke, 2k down on the DOW in one day? That would be more than when 9-11 happened.

    The problem is nobody ever calls this joker on his claims, nor holds him responsible for what he does say.
    Reply
    Exactly..

    Good comments.

    Cramerica is a joke, 2k down on the DOW in one day? That would be more than when 9-11 happened.

    The problem is nobody ever calls this joker on his claims, nor holds him responsible for what he does say.
     
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Jan. 20, 2008 - 1:44 PM ET #9

    I agree with you guys that "down 2000 in one day" is a gross overstatement (as usual) by baldy BUT I think he is correct about the overall market, esp the financials, being vulnerable to "Get Me the Fuck OUT" selling in the near future. a lot of these "Hedge Hogs" have to be close to their lenders calling their loans.
     
    thanx for the info on the SKF, thegambler. going to add to my primary watch list.
    Reply
    I agree with you guys that "down 2000 in one day" is a gross overstatement (as usual) by baldy BUT I think he is correct about the overall market, esp the financials, being vulnerable to "Get Me the Fuck OUT" selling in the near future. a lot of these "Hedge Hogs" have to be close to their lenders calling their loans.
     
    thanx for the info on the SKF, thegambler. going to add to my primary watch list.
     
    accventures
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    Posted: Jan. 21, 2008 - 10:37 AM ET #10

    blood in the streets, everybody saying go short........it's getting very close to a point of getting long.
    Reply
    blood in the streets, everybody saying go short........it's getting very close to a point of getting long.
     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Jan. 21, 2008 - 11:56 AM ET #11

    unless any of you actually understand what MBI ABK AGO SCA do...no one knows the effects of one of them defaulting


    Reply
    unless any of you actually understand what MBI ABK AGO SCA do...no one knows the effects of one of them defaulting


     
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Jan. 21, 2008 - 6:52 PM ET #12

    Stock Markets Plunge Worldwide

    2008-01-21 12:45:12
    By TOBY ANDERSON AP Business Writer

    LONDON (AP) — Stocks fell sharply worldwide Monday following declines on Wall Street last week amid investor pessimism over the U.S. government's stimulus plan to prevent a recession.

    U.S. markets were closed for Martin Luther King Jr. Day, but the downbeat mood from last week's market declines there circled through Europe, Asia and the Americas. Britain's benchmark FTSE-100 slumped 5.5 percent to 5,578.20, France's CAC-40 Index tumbled 6.8 percent to 4,744.15, and Germany's blue-chip DAX 30 plunged 7.2 percent to 6,790.19.

    In Asia, India's benchmark stock index tumbled 7.4 percent, while Hong Kong's blue-chip Hang Seng index plummeted 5.5 percent to 23,818.86, its biggest percentage drop since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

    Canadian stocks fell as well, with the S&P/TSX composite index on the Toronto Stock Exchange down 4 percent in early afternoon trading. In Brazil, stocks plunged 6.9 percent on the main index of Sao Paulo's Bovespa exchange.

    Investors dumped shares because they were skeptical that an economic stimulus plan President Bush announced Friday would shore up the economy that has been battered by problems in its housing and credit markets. (I wonder why? ) The plan, which requires approval by Congress, calls for about $145 billion worth of tax relief to encourage consumer spending.

    "We've taken our lead from the Asian markets who have not been impressed by the U.S. There's debate if there's going to be a recession in the U.S. I don't think there's much chance of that though," said Richard Hunter an analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown Stockbrokers Ltd. in London.

    Concerns about the outlook for the U.S. economy, a major export market for Asian companies, has sent the region's markets sliding in 2008. Just last Wednesday, the Hang Seng index sank 5.4 percent.

    "It's another horrible day," said Francis Lun, a general manager at Fulbright Securities in Hong Kong. "Today it's because of disappointment that the U.S. stimulus (package) is too little, too late and investors feel it won't help the economy recover."

    Japan's benchmark Nikkei 225 index slid 3.9 percent to close at 13,325.94 points, its lowest close in more than two years. China's Shanghai Composite index plunged 5.1 percent, partly on worries about mainland Chinese banks' exposure to risky U.S. mortgage investments. (starting to see a trend?)

    "People are certainly nervous about a potential recession in the U.S. spilling over to the rest of the world," said David Cohen, Director of Asian Economic Forecasting at Action Economics in Singapore.

    "Maybe there's still some wariness about politicians are able to come up with a compromise and act sufficiently quickly" on a stimulus package, Cohen said. "I think the impact would be marginal anyway."

    Investors took cues from the negative reaction to the president's plan on Wall Street on Friday, when the Dow Jones industrial average slid 0.5 percent to 12,099.30, bringing its loss for the year so far to nearly 9 percent.

    Traders also have shrugged off assurances from Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke that the U.S. central bank is ready to act aggressively — which means a likely big interest rate cut later this month — to help the sagging economy.

    Some analysts predict that Asia won't suffer dramatically from a U.S. recession because increased trade and investment within Asia has made the region less reliant on the United States than in the past. Excluding Japan, 43 percent of Asia's exports go to other nations in the region, Lehman Brothers calculates, up from 37 percent in 1995.

    But on Monday, uncertainty and pessimism reigned.

    In Tokyo trading, exporters got hit hard, partly because of the yen's recent strength against the dollar. Toyota Motor Corp. lost 3.3 percent and Honda Motor Co. sank 3.4 percent.

    Shares of Bank of China dropped 6.4 percent in Hong Kong after the South China Morning Post newspaper reported that the bank is expected to announce a "significant write-down" in U.S. subprime mortgage securities, citing unidentified sources. In Shanghai, the bank's stock declined 4.1 percent.

    India's the benchmark Sensex index fell 1,353 points, or 7.4 percent — its second-biggest percentage drop ever — to 17,605.35 points. At one point, it was down nearly 11 percent.

    The decline hit companies across the board, with power utility Reliance Energy Ltd. falling 16.4 percent. Major software company Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. slid 7.6 percent

    "A gloomy U.S. climate has affected the global markets. Even if those markets recover, it will take sometime for the recovery to reach India because today's fall has been so drastic," said Jayant Pai, of the Mumbai investment company IL&FS Ltd.

    Still, Pai and others suggested that the declines could lead to a buying opportunity. (THAT'S a "three roller")

    "The sell-off today takes us close to the bottom," she said. (maybe a grossly oversold short term trading bottom BUT I wouldn't book it. would just be a rally in a bear market)

    Since the start of the year, Japan's Nikkei index has declined 13 percent, while Hong Kong's blue-chip index is down more than 14 percent. Even China's Shanghai index — which nearly doubled last year — has fallen 6.6 percent over the same period and nearly 20 percent from its all-time closing high on Oct. 16.

     

    anyone STILL think we couldn't have a monster US market down day?

    Reply

    Stock Markets Plunge Worldwide

    2008-01-21 12:45:12
    By TOBY ANDERSON AP Business Writer

    LONDON (AP) — Stocks fell sharply worldwide Monday following declines on Wall Street last week amid investor pessimism over the U.S. government's stimulus plan to prevent a recession.

    U.S. markets were closed for Martin Luther King Jr. Day, but the downbeat mood from last week's market declines there circled through Europe, Asia and the Americas. Britain's benchmark FTSE-100 slumped 5.5 percent to 5,578.20, France's CAC-40 Index tumbled 6.8 percent to 4,744.15, and Germany's blue-chip DAX 30 plunged 7.2 percent to 6,790.19.

    In Asia, India's benchmark stock index tumbled 7.4 percent, while Hong Kong's blue-chip Hang Seng index plummeted 5.5 percent to 23,818.86, its biggest percentage drop since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

    Canadian stocks fell as well, with the S&P/TSX composite index on the Toronto Stock Exchange down 4 percent in early afternoon trading. In Brazil, stocks plunged 6.9 percent on the main index of Sao Paulo's Bovespa exchange.

    Investors dumped shares because they were skeptical that an economic stimulus plan President Bush announced Friday would shore up the economy that has been battered by problems in its housing and credit markets. (I wonder why? ) The plan, which requires approval by Congress, calls for about $145 billion worth of tax relief to encourage consumer spending.

    "We've taken our lead from the Asian markets who have not been impressed by the U.S. There's debate if there's going to be a recession in the U.S. I don't think there's much chance of that though," said Richard Hunter an analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown Stockbrokers Ltd. in London.

    Concerns about the outlook for the U.S. economy, a major export market for Asian companies, has sent the region's markets sliding in 2008. Just last Wednesday, the Hang Seng index sank 5.4 percent.

    "It's another horrible day," said Francis Lun, a general manager at Fulbright Securities in Hong Kong. "Today it's because of disappointment that the U.S. stimulus (package) is too little, too late and investors feel it won't help the economy recover."

    Japan's benchmark Nikkei 225 index slid 3.9 percent to close at 13,325.94 points, its lowest close in more than two years. China's Shanghai Composite index plunged 5.1 percent, partly on worries about mainland Chinese banks' exposure to risky U.S. mortgage investments. (starting to see a trend?)

    "People are certainly nervous about a potential recession in the U.S. spilling over to the rest of the world," said David Cohen, Director of Asian Economic Forecasting at Action Economics in Singapore.

    "Maybe there's still some wariness about politicians are able to come up with a compromise and act sufficiently quickly" on a stimulus package, Cohen said. "I think the impact would be marginal anyway."

    Investors took cues from the negative reaction to the president's plan on Wall Street on Friday, when the Dow Jones industrial average slid 0.5 percent to 12,099.30, bringing its loss for the year so far to nearly 9 percent.

    Traders also have shrugged off assurances from Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke that the U.S. central bank is ready to act aggressively — which means a likely big interest rate cut later this month — to help the sagging economy.

    Some analysts predict that Asia won't suffer dramatically from a U.S. recession because increased trade and investment within Asia has made the region less reliant on the United States than in the past. Excluding Japan, 43 percent of Asia's exports go to other nations in the region, Lehman Brothers calculates, up from 37 percent in 1995.

    But on Monday, uncertainty and pessimism reigned.

    In Tokyo trading, exporters got hit hard, partly because of the yen's recent strength against the dollar. Toyota Motor Corp. lost 3.3 percent and Honda Motor Co. sank 3.4 percent.

    Shares of Bank of China dropped 6.4 percent in Hong Kong after the South China Morning Post newspaper reported that the bank is expected to announce a "significant write-down" in U.S. subprime mortgage securities, citing unidentified sources. In Shanghai, the bank's stock declined 4.1 percent.

    India's the benchmark Sensex index fell 1,353 points, or 7.4 percent — its second-biggest percentage drop ever — to 17,605.35 points. At one point, it was down nearly 11 percent.

    The decline hit companies across the board, with power utility Reliance Energy Ltd. falling 16.4 percent. Major software company Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. slid 7.6 percent

    "A gloomy U.S. climate has affected the global markets. Even if those markets recover, it will take sometime for the recovery to reach India because today's fall has been so drastic," said Jayant Pai, of the Mumbai investment company IL&FS Ltd.

    Still, Pai and others suggested that the declines could lead to a buying opportunity. (THAT'S a "three roller")

    "The sell-off today takes us close to the bottom," she said. (maybe a grossly oversold short term trading bottom BUT I wouldn't book it. would just be a rally in a bear market)

    Since the start of the year, Japan's Nikkei index has declined 13 percent, while Hong Kong's blue-chip index is down more than 14 percent. Even China's Shanghai index — which nearly doubled last year — has fallen 6.6 percent over the same period and nearly 20 percent from its all-time closing high on Oct. 16.

     

    anyone STILL think we couldn't have a monster US market down day?

     
    wallstreetcappers
    wallstreetcappers
    Covers Linesmen
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Feb, 2003
    Posts: 58424
    Posted: Jan. 21, 2008 - 6:57 PM ET #13

    Quote Originally Posted by KOAJ:

    unless any of you actually understand what MBI ABK AGO SCA do...no one knows the effects of one of them defaulting




    Yeah the "sky is falling" potential is HUGE, especially since if the market for buying and selling municipal debt goes SOUTH it will hurt a TON of people. I just dont think that a collapse will happen..it isnt like MUNI debt has turned into garbage..like the Orange County fiasco years ago..this is public companies extending themselves and not being able to cover the cash needs..similar to over-margining situations in the past with the markets.

    Rat...if the US markets were at 14k, yeah we could get hammered, but we are already WELL off highs, while other markets were not nearly as hit like we were..

    Maybe I am wrong but I dont see a -500 down day tomorrow.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KOAJ:

    unless any of you actually understand what MBI ABK AGO SCA do...no one knows the effects of one of them defaulting




    Yeah the "sky is falling" potential is HUGE, especially since if the market for buying and selling municipal debt goes SOUTH it will hurt a TON of people. I just dont think that a collapse will happen..it isnt like MUNI debt has turned into garbage..like the Orange County fiasco years ago..this is public companies extending themselves and not being able to cover the cash needs..similar to over-margining situations in the past with the markets.

    Rat...if the US markets were at 14k, yeah we could get hammered, but we are already WELL off highs, while other markets were not nearly as hit like we were..

    Maybe I am wrong but I dont see a -500 down day tomorrow.
     
    Gridophiles
    Gridophiles
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Nov, 2006
    Posts: 477
    Posted: Jan. 21, 2008 - 7:05 PM ET #14

    Quote Originally Posted by KOAJ:

    unless any of you actually understand what MBI ABK AGO SCA do...no one knows the effects of one of them defaulting


     

    KOAJ,

    Which is why you have to believe the government will eventually have to bail them out.  Don't you think?   To do so now would shore up this market more then any rate cuts or stimulus package ever could, imo.

     

     

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by KOAJ:

    unless any of you actually understand what MBI ABK AGO SCA do...no one knows the effects of one of them defaulting


     

    KOAJ,

    Which is why you have to believe the government will eventually have to bail them out.  Don't you think?   To do so now would shore up this market more then any rate cuts or stimulus package ever could, imo.

     

     

     
    KOAJ
    KOAJ
    Covers Linesmen
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Oct, 2005
    Posts: 66698
    Posted: Jan. 21, 2008 - 7:23 PM ET #15

    grid - i usually NEVER support the govt bailing out the financial markets but this time is different...they need to take the guarantors out and make them private. the uncertainty is whats killing this market right now

    wall - muni debt is still good debt but the problem is much bigger...our entire economy is built on oversupplied cheap money which is leveraged 10x over into synthetic shit. at some point, the risk of repayment outweighs everything else so then lenders stop lending

    in august quant models which are stress tested against the worst possible scenarios saw multiple 5 standard deviation events within a week...thats never supposed to happen in any circumstance, not within 10000 years (so i read in one article)

    i know ive been talking about it for months, but you all should read Financial Armegeddon...the blog and the book

    gl tomorrow
    Reply
    grid - i usually NEVER support the govt bailing out the financial markets but this time is different...they need to take the guarantors out and make them private. the uncertainty is whats killing this market right now

    wall - muni debt is still good debt but the problem is much bigger...our entire economy is built on oversupplied cheap money which is leveraged 10x over into synthetic shit. at some point, the risk of repayment outweighs everything else so then lenders stop lending

    in august quant models which are stress tested against the worst possible scenarios saw multiple 5 standard deviation events within a week...thats never supposed to happen in any circumstance, not within 10000 years (so i read in one article)

    i know ive been talking about it for months, but you all should read Financial Armegeddon...the blog and the book

    gl tomorrow
     
    LeRinkRat
    LeRinkRat
    Legend
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2001
    Posts: 85256
    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 1:59 AM ET #16

    our entire economy is built on oversupplied cheap money which is leveraged 10x over into synthetic shit.
     
    too bad Clinton let the Wall Street Weasels repeal the Glass Stiegel Act which seperated lender-mortgage banking from investment banking. I'm sure that he and Hillary were well rewarded
     
    "leveraged 10X over" is the key to the whole coming collapes. just like in 1929, when people could own stocks for pennies on the dollar and the margin calls killed the market, the highly leveraged "Hedge Hogs" with ways around current 50% margin requirements (25% for day traders) by the use of offshore money and various derivitives, will soon be getting their loans called and be liquidating.
    Reply
    our entire economy is built on oversupplied cheap money which is leveraged 10x over into synthetic shit.
     
    too bad Clinton let the Wall Street Weasels repeal the Glass Stiegel Act which seperated lender-mortgage banking from investment banking. I'm sure that he and Hillary were well rewarded
     
    "leveraged 10X over" is the key to the whole coming collapes. just like in 1929, when people could own stocks for pennies on the dollar and the margin calls killed the market, the highly leveraged "Hedge Hogs" with ways around current 50% margin requirements (25% for day traders) by the use of offshore money and various derivitives, will soon be getting their loans called and be liquidating.
     
    KOAJ
    KOAJ
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    Joined: Oct, 2005
    Posts: 66698
    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 6:18 AM ET #17

    rink - most of the hedge guys i talk to have been straddled everything in the past 6 months...hundreds and hundreds of options on a ton of sticks up and down the dial. trust me those guys will do well, for the most part...

    ive looked at some of their filings also (13F)...its public knowledge

    also...most people ive spoken with in the last 4-6 months wanted short
     ideas or ways to avoid bad longs
    Reply
    rink - most of the hedge guys i talk to have been straddled everything in the past 6 months...hundreds and hundreds of options on a ton of sticks up and down the dial. trust me those guys will do well, for the most part...

    ive looked at some of their filings also (13F)...its public knowledge

    also...most people ive spoken with in the last 4-6 months wanted short
     ideas or ways to avoid bad longs
     
    KOAJ
    KOAJ
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    Joined: Oct, 2005
    Posts: 66698
    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 7:03 AM ET #18

    look for a 50bp intraday cut today in fed rates
    Reply
    look for a 50bp intraday cut today in fed rates
     
    depeche2
    depeche2
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    Posts: 67006
    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 9:52 AM ET #19

    Kramer talks outside both ends of his mouth and just says whatever sounds right at the moment.  He's an instafade.
    Reply
    Kramer talks outside both ends of his mouth and just says whatever sounds right at the moment.  He's an instafade.
     
    KOAJ
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 10:03 AM ET #20

    d2 - normally he is but with this he's dead on just like with last august he was dead on in yelling about the fed
    Reply
    d2 - normally he is but with this he's dead on just like with last august he was dead on in yelling about the fed
     
    LeRinkRat
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 10:09 AM ET #21

    talk about your "flip-floppesr", NOW Cramer is on NBC's "Today" show saying "it's a great time to buy stocks yielding 5%" because "there is very little risk"
    Reply
    talk about your "flip-floppesr", NOW Cramer is on NBC's "Today" show saying "it's a great time to buy stocks yielding 5%" because "there is very little risk"
     
     
    LeRinkRat
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    Posted: Jan. 22, 2008 - 10:12 AM ET #22

    oh, and we're a "safe haven". Ya RIGHT!!! the US$ is in the SEWER and we're a "safe haven"
    Reply
    oh, and we're a "safe haven". Ya RIGHT!!! the US$ is in the SEWER and we're a "safe haven"
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