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    Thoughts on CLV

    garbagetime
    firesox
    szhcik
    vanzack
    DogbiteWilliams
    Participants:
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    Views: 538
    Posts: 12
     
    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2022 - 11:33 PM ET #1

    This past week, with Tampa Bay in seeming freefall after four losses in five games, the Bucs and 45-year-old Tom Brady prepared to welcome the first-place Ravens for the Thursday night game. I saw the initial line on the game, Tampa Bay +1.5 points, move immediately to Tampa Bay +2.5 points and, sure that it wouldn’t move on to the key number of +3, I got my Bucs bet down in a hurry.

    Not that I knew anything; I never do. As Yogi Berra purportedly said, I don't even suspect anything. Tampa Bay simply fit my bounceback system after losing 21-3 away to a poor Carolina team, and the early money flowing toward Baltimore seemed like the kind of recency-bias-fueled overreaction that my contrarian nature feasts on.

    But soon after, the money started flowing the other way, and by the time the game kicked off, Tampa Bay was a solid 2-point favorite. And just like that, I had achieved 4.5 points of closing line value (CLV).

    CLV is another of those wagering theories that I don’t subscribe to. The idea is simple enough. The market opens as the bookmaker’s best guess as to how to match action on either side. By the time the market closes, all of the information gathered since the market opened has been baked into the closing line — the closing odds reflect everything known or believed about the game in question. If it has moved in your direction, great: You thought Tampa Bay had value as a 2.5-point underdog, so you made a way better bet than the schmucks who waited to bet Tampa Bay until they were a 2-point favorite.

    In this one particular case, all of us schmucks lost — Tampa Bay played about a 30-minute game, led 10-3 at the half, and settled for field goals twice late after having first downs at the Baltimore 13- and 9-yard lines. Tampa Bay failed to get the back-door cover and lost, 27-22.

    So, what of CLV? Many people like to brag about being an early adopter, the betting version of “being into these guys before they were popular,” and swear that consistently “beating the market” means more wins over time. Certainly, if getting there early means being on the better side of a key number — getting a team at -2.5 rather than -3.5 — you’ll win a few that you would have lost otherwise, assuming you picked the right side to begin with.

    But that’s the rub, isn’t it? People who picked Baltimore at -2.5 were as right as the ones who waited and got them +2. That particular result was a finger in the eye to the people who believe that you’re a hopeless sheep if you make NFL bets “after all the value is gone” (on the day of the game). I’m thinking here of the authors of “The Logic of Sports Betting,” who say in the preface that if you don’t bet NFL games the second the odds are released, “your process is a losing one.”

    This is a regular drumbeat in the betting world. The sixth tip in the Washington Post’s “Six tips for becoming a sharper sports bettor” in April 2022: “Focus on closing line value.” Concluded the author, “Over time, you should win a higher rate of bets that have closing line value than those that don’t, which is the point of smarter betting.” Got that? You *should*. No guarantees, though.

    As an aside, this followed tip 5, “Place your bets early in the week, not at the last minute.” Why bet early? Well, during the previous season — no, seriously, the tip was based on what the author had observed during one season’s worth of games — opening lines at, say, -2.5 and -6.5 didn’t often get worse, and frequently improved. “It’s a fine strategy to blindly bet any opening or look-ahead line at those numbers,” read the conclusion, “provided the price is -110 or better.”

    Bet blindly. I dare you.

    As a contrarian, I feel better about a bet when the odds move against me. I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I realize that what I thought of as brilliance on Monday has become conventional wisdom by the time the game kicks off. No thanks.

     

    Reply
    To remove first post, remove entire topic.

    This past week, with Tampa Bay in seeming freefall after four losses in five games, the Bucs and 45-year-old Tom Brady prepared to welcome the first-place Ravens for the Thursday night game. I saw the initial line on the game, Tampa Bay +1.5 points, move immediately to Tampa Bay +2.5 points and, sure that it wouldn’t move on to the key number of +3, I got my Bucs bet down in a hurry.

    Not that I knew anything; I never do. As Yogi Berra purportedly said, I don't even suspect anything. Tampa Bay simply fit my bounceback system after losing 21-3 away to a poor Carolina team, and the early money flowing toward Baltimore seemed like the kind of recency-bias-fueled overreaction that my contrarian nature feasts on.

    But soon after, the money started flowing the other way, and by the time the game kicked off, Tampa Bay was a solid 2-point favorite. And just like that, I had achieved 4.5 points of closing line value (CLV).

    CLV is another of those wagering theories that I don’t subscribe to. The idea is simple enough. The market opens as the bookmaker’s best guess as to how to match action on either side. By the time the market closes, all of the information gathered since the market opened has been baked into the closing line — the closing odds reflect everything known or believed about the game in question. If it has moved in your direction, great: You thought Tampa Bay had value as a 2.5-point underdog, so you made a way better bet than the schmucks who waited to bet Tampa Bay until they were a 2-point favorite.

    In this one particular case, all of us schmucks lost — Tampa Bay played about a 30-minute game, led 10-3 at the half, and settled for field goals twice late after having first downs at the Baltimore 13- and 9-yard lines. Tampa Bay failed to get the back-door cover and lost, 27-22.

    So, what of CLV? Many people like to brag about being an early adopter, the betting version of “being into these guys before they were popular,” and swear that consistently “beating the market” means more wins over time. Certainly, if getting there early means being on the better side of a key number — getting a team at -2.5 rather than -3.5 — you’ll win a few that you would have lost otherwise, assuming you picked the right side to begin with.

    But that’s the rub, isn’t it? People who picked Baltimore at -2.5 were as right as the ones who waited and got them +2. That particular result was a finger in the eye to the people who believe that you’re a hopeless sheep if you make NFL bets “after all the value is gone” (on the day of the game). I’m thinking here of the authors of “The Logic of Sports Betting,” who say in the preface that if you don’t bet NFL games the second the odds are released, “your process is a losing one.”

    This is a regular drumbeat in the betting world. The sixth tip in the Washington Post’s “Six tips for becoming a sharper sports bettor” in April 2022: “Focus on closing line value.” Concluded the author, “Over time, you should win a higher rate of bets that have closing line value than those that don’t, which is the point of smarter betting.” Got that? You *should*. No guarantees, though.

    As an aside, this followed tip 5, “Place your bets early in the week, not at the last minute.” Why bet early? Well, during the previous season — no, seriously, the tip was based on what the author had observed during one season’s worth of games — opening lines at, say, -2.5 and -6.5 didn’t often get worse, and frequently improved. “It’s a fine strategy to blindly bet any opening or look-ahead line at those numbers,” read the conclusion, “provided the price is -110 or better.”

    Bet blindly. I dare you.

    As a contrarian, I feel better about a bet when the odds move against me. I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I realize that what I thought of as brilliance on Monday has become conventional wisdom by the time the game kicks off. No thanks.

     

     
    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 1, 2022 - 11:33 PM ET #2

    And I say all this as someone who earlier this season lost a +2.5 bet that would have pushed had I waited for the +3 that arrived at the last minute AND pushed a bet at -3 because I didn’t take the -2.5 early enough in the week. These results, and all others, are random. You’re guessing whenever you make a bet. And CLV’s true believers are asking you to not only guess who you think the right side is, but also to guess a week before the game whether the odds will get better or worse. Again, no thanks.

    CLV wins you bragging rights over all the other suckers provided you guessed right, but most of the time it’s like every other thing that betting types and touts go on and on about. It doesn’t matter.

    Reply

    And I say all this as someone who earlier this season lost a +2.5 bet that would have pushed had I waited for the +3 that arrived at the last minute AND pushed a bet at -3 because I didn’t take the -2.5 early enough in the week. These results, and all others, are random. You’re guessing whenever you make a bet. And CLV’s true believers are asking you to not only guess who you think the right side is, but also to guess a week before the game whether the odds will get better or worse. Again, no thanks.

    CLV wins you bragging rights over all the other suckers provided you guessed right, but most of the time it’s like every other thing that betting types and touts go on and on about. It doesn’t matter.

     
    firesox
    firesox
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    Posted: Nov. 2, 2022 - 1:41 AM ET #3

    Thanks for your thoughts. Clv has become a cult. It is only useful to see if your process is profitable long term. Short term, or in individual cases it means nothing. I also know that many syndicates and large betting groups actually PREFER not to have clv because it affects their potential liquidity if books know their bets destabilize the market line too much. Focus on your process and everything will work out. Plenty of value to be found on a sunday morning

    Reply

    Thanks for your thoughts. Clv has become a cult. It is only useful to see if your process is profitable long term. Short term, or in individual cases it means nothing. I also know that many syndicates and large betting groups actually PREFER not to have clv because it affects their potential liquidity if books know their bets destabilize the market line too much. Focus on your process and everything will work out. Plenty of value to be found on a sunday morning

     
    szhcik
    szhcik
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    Posts: 7992
    Posted: Nov. 2, 2022 - 5:18 AM ET #4

    none no thoughtswhatsoever..can be brilliant...

    Sweet home ALABAMA
    Reply

    none no thoughtswhatsoever..can be brilliant...

     
    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 6, 2022 - 11:22 AM ET #5

    Fcuk me, I took Las Vegas earlier in the week at -1.5 and now it's -2.5. Hope CLV is good for a win today.

    Reply

    Fcuk me, I took Las Vegas earlier in the week at -1.5 and now it's -2.5. Hope CLV is good for a win today.

     
    garbagetime
    garbagetime
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    Posted: Nov. 15, 2022 - 1:53 PM ET #6

    So anyway, after losing with Tampa and the Raiders with CLV, this weekend I had Colts +4 (after they had opened +6) and Green Bay +4 (after they had opened +5.5), and both bets won. Just sayin'.

    Reply

    So anyway, after losing with Tampa and the Raiders with CLV, this weekend I had Colts +4 (after they had opened +6) and Green Bay +4 (after they had opened +5.5), and both bets won. Just sayin'.

     
    vanzack
    vanzack
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    Posts: 60107
    Posted: Nov. 15, 2022 - 2:32 PM ET #7

    Quote Originally Posted by firesox:

    Thanks for your thoughts. Clv has become a cult. It is only useful to see if your process is profitable long term. Short term, or in individual cases it means nothing. I also know that many syndicates and large betting groups actually PREFER not to have clv because it affects their potential liquidity if books know their bets destabilize the market line too much. Focus on your process and everything will work out. Plenty of value to be found on a sunday morning

    Can you please post more often?

    Serious.

    peace_5

    Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by firesox:

    Thanks for your thoughts. Clv has become a cult. It is only useful to see if your process is profitable long term. Short term, or in individual cases it means nothing. I also know that many syndicates and large betting groups actually PREFER not to have clv because it affects their potential liquidity if books know their bets destabilize the market line too much. Focus on your process and everything will work out. Plenty of value to be found on a sunday morning

    Can you please post more often?

    Serious.

    peace_5

     
    vanzack
    vanzack
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    Posts: 60107
    Posted: Nov. 15, 2022 - 2:33 PM ET #8

    And thank you for starting this thread @garbagetime.

    Great topic.  Wish Covers had more of this.

    peace_5

    Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
    Reply

    And thank you for starting this thread @garbagetime.

    Great topic.  Wish Covers had more of this.

    peace_5

     
    vanzack
    vanzack
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    Posted: Nov. 15, 2022 - 2:39 PM ET #9

    My quick thoughts....

     

    CLV is a double edge sword.  If you believe that the NFL betting markets are an efficient marketplace, then CLV matters.  That being said, you have to be sharp enough to be on the RIGHT SIDE of the line move ahead of the CL.

    But if you believe that NFL betting markets are not efficient - or even not totally efficient - then CLV is noise.

    I do disagree with the OP premise of taking one off examples where a half point "doesnt matter".  These half points and full points matter a great deal over the course of time, and are critical to long term profits.

    But when you make decisions based on line moves, or tea leaves in the line moves - then I am off of that train.  Process is what matters.  Your process should determine a number, and you should fire at that number.  If the line moves against you, be prepared to bet more.  If the line moves towards you, you got a good number.

    Great discussion.

    peace_5

    PS.... I think the reason this thread didnt get much action since Nov 1 is most people in the NFL forum read "CLV" as the Browns.  I did until I read it, and I am glad I did.

    Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
    Reply

    My quick thoughts....

     

    CLV is a double edge sword.  If you believe that the NFL betting markets are an efficient marketplace, then CLV matters.  That being said, you have to be sharp enough to be on the RIGHT SIDE of the line move ahead of the CL.

    But if you believe that NFL betting markets are not efficient - or even not totally efficient - then CLV is noise.

    I do disagree with the OP premise of taking one off examples where a half point "doesnt matter".  These half points and full points matter a great deal over the course of time, and are critical to long term profits.

    But when you make decisions based on line moves, or tea leaves in the line moves - then I am off of that train.  Process is what matters.  Your process should determine a number, and you should fire at that number.  If the line moves against you, be prepared to bet more.  If the line moves towards you, you got a good number.

    Great discussion.

    peace_5

    PS.... I think the reason this thread didnt get much action since Nov 1 is most people in the NFL forum read "CLV" as the Browns.  I did until I read it, and I am glad I did.

     
    firesox
    firesox
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    Posted: Nov. 15, 2022 - 6:05 PM ET #10

    @vanzack

     I will do my best thumbs_up I'm always interested in threads that discuss handicapping.

    Reply

    @vanzack

     I will do my best thumbs_up I'm always interested in threads that discuss handicapping.

     
    firesox
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    Posted: Nov. 15, 2022 - 6:12 PM ET #11

    I have found that the nfl market is not the efficient goliath that people hype it up to be. You can get ahead of most line moves just by studying the weather and injury reports. The other line moves come when a respected group pounds a side as if they already know the result, but if you trust your numbers, you can fade that steam easily

    Reply

    I have found that the nfl market is not the efficient goliath that people hype it up to be. You can get ahead of most line moves just by studying the weather and injury reports. The other line moves come when a respected group pounds a side as if they already know the result, but if you trust your numbers, you can fade that steam easily

     
     
    DogbiteWilliams
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    Posted: Nov. 16, 2022 - 6:09 PM ET #12

    @vanzack

     Yes, I also thought "CLV" referred to the Browns.

    Reply

    @vanzack

     Yes, I also thought "CLV" referred to the Browns.

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