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    Rebutting the Palin choice

    Matador
    KOAJ
    skydragon58
    HutchEmAll
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    Matador
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 11:40 AM ET #1

    Again, apologies as this thread rightfully belongs in the Politics forum, but it is posted here by necessity and through no fault of my own. Some of the political regulars do peruse the PB from time to time. If they do so today, they will be amply rewarded with yet another of Matador's lucid and perspicacious bolts of wisdom.

    First of all, I'd like to express my admiration for the McCain campaign's shrewdness both in the genius of the selection, and in the particulars of the build up. They certainly figure to attain their objective of squelching Obama's bounce, which could have gotten out of control by Monday without effective counter programming. The timing and staging are spot on, and while there may be long term issues with the Palin selection, a Pawlenty selection would have been met with a collective yawn at a crisis point when a strong pushback is desperately needed.

    At any rate, here are three basic strategies:

    1. Stress Palin's staunch conservatism. "Staunch" is the key buzzword here; it carries very strong negative connotations.

    2. Ethics. Palin faces investigation in her own state. Without expressing a judgment about actual guilt or innocence, connect her with Ted Stevens, and extend the connection to Republican corruption in general, particularly financial scandals involving other staunch Republicans, like Tom Delay for instance.

    3. Contrast her with Hillary Clinton. Paint her as an obvious political choice cynically aimed at stripping away Hillary voters. This is an angle to attack her inexperience indirectly. The inexperience angle needs to be finessed since of course Obama faces a similar challenge in regard to how he is perceived, but taking the "I know Hillary Clinton, and Governor, you're no Hillary Clinton" tact is an end run around the problem.

    There is more, but this is a just a discussion starter.

    Interestingly, just as I finish up typing, I am watching MSNBC and Rep. Wasserman Schultz is making exactly these arguments (number two and three at least). She even used the exact words: "You're no Hillary Clinton." So the campaign agrees with me. Sounds like they're on the ball and in good hands.......


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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    Again, apologies as this thread rightfully belongs in the Politics forum, but it is posted here by necessity and through no fault of my own. Some of the political regulars do peruse the PB from time to time. If they do so today, they will be amply rewarded with yet another of Matador's lucid and perspicacious bolts of wisdom.

    First of all, I'd like to express my admiration for the McCain campaign's shrewdness both in the genius of the selection, and in the particulars of the build up. They certainly figure to attain their objective of squelching Obama's bounce, which could have gotten out of control by Monday without effective counter programming. The timing and staging are spot on, and while there may be long term issues with the Palin selection, a Pawlenty selection would have been met with a collective yawn at a crisis point when a strong pushback is desperately needed.

    At any rate, here are three basic strategies:

    1. Stress Palin's staunch conservatism. "Staunch" is the key buzzword here; it carries very strong negative connotations.

    2. Ethics. Palin faces investigation in her own state. Without expressing a judgment about actual guilt or innocence, connect her with Ted Stevens, and extend the connection to Republican corruption in general, particularly financial scandals involving other staunch Republicans, like Tom Delay for instance.

    3. Contrast her with Hillary Clinton. Paint her as an obvious political choice cynically aimed at stripping away Hillary voters. This is an angle to attack her inexperience indirectly. The inexperience angle needs to be finessed since of course Obama faces a similar challenge in regard to how he is perceived, but taking the "I know Hillary Clinton, and Governor, you're no Hillary Clinton" tact is an end run around the problem.

    There is more, but this is a just a discussion starter.

    Interestingly, just as I finish up typing, I am watching MSNBC and Rep. Wasserman Schultz is making exactly these arguments (number two and three at least). She even used the exact words: "You're no Hillary Clinton." So the campaign agrees with me. Sounds like they're on the ball and in good hands.......


     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 11:51 AM ET #2

    fwiw - axelrod is already quoted as saying he didnt expect a bounce (the spin begins)

    pawlenty is a yawn and romney is a cringe (for enough to matter). palin, cantor, jindal are the only WOW choices

    1 - staunch conservative is a good connotation for conservatives... the opposite of mccain

    2 - if they want to talk about her investigation, i'm sure someone can find more evidence of Biden's plagarism out there. non issue...if it was, mccain wouldnt have picked her

    3 - what experience is more valuable, junior senator or state governor?
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    fwiw - axelrod is already quoted as saying he didnt expect a bounce (the spin begins)

    pawlenty is a yawn and romney is a cringe (for enough to matter). palin, cantor, jindal are the only WOW choices

    1 - staunch conservative is a good connotation for conservatives... the opposite of mccain

    2 - if they want to talk about her investigation, i'm sure someone can find more evidence of Biden's plagarism out there. non issue...if it was, mccain wouldnt have picked her

    3 - what experience is more valuable, junior senator or state governor?
     
    skydragon58
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 11:54 AM ET #3

    Alaska=Biggest pork state there is and through some pretty unethical means. Not that all of our government offials aren't unethical but Alaska offiacials are really bad. Everyone needs to write in Ron Paul.
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    Alaska=Biggest pork state there is and through some pretty unethical means. Not that all of our government offials aren't unethical but Alaska offiacials are really bad. Everyone needs to write in Ron Paul.
     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 11:55 AM ET #4

    Alaska offiacials
    -------
    i think it was mostly ted stevens
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    Alaska offiacials
    -------
    i think it was mostly ted stevens
     
    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:00 PM ET #5

    It's 3 ALL the way.  Without a doubt.  You don't bring in a woman with limited experience to win over the staunch conservatives....they don't need any winning over.  KOAJ is a staunch conservative....does he need to be won over so he doesn't vote for Obama?   
     
    It's a ploy for the voters who will decide this election....the Hillary backers that aren't completely sold on Obama.
     
    BTW, my dad is into politics HUGE (he spend mucho time talking to the MN congress as he works for the state and he's heavily involved in legislation).  He made a great point to me last night:  Some of these Hillary backers are crazy women.....almost militant in demeanor...and they don't like to be told what to do.  That's part of the reason for the kid gloves treatment and part of the reason Hillary has been a little neutral toward telling them to get on the Obama train....and part of the reason she said, "if they need to cast their vote to clear their conscious, I understand that." 

    Makes some sense to me.

    But don't kid yourselves, this is a ploy for those middle ground Hillary backers.....100%.
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    It's 3 ALL the way.  Without a doubt.  You don't bring in a woman with limited experience to win over the staunch conservatives....they don't need any winning over.  KOAJ is a staunch conservative....does he need to be won over so he doesn't vote for Obama?   
     
    It's a ploy for the voters who will decide this election....the Hillary backers that aren't completely sold on Obama.
     
    BTW, my dad is into politics HUGE (he spend mucho time talking to the MN congress as he works for the state and he's heavily involved in legislation).  He made a great point to me last night:  Some of these Hillary backers are crazy women.....almost militant in demeanor...and they don't like to be told what to do.  That's part of the reason for the kid gloves treatment and part of the reason Hillary has been a little neutral toward telling them to get on the Obama train....and part of the reason she said, "if they need to cast their vote to clear their conscious, I understand that." 

    Makes some sense to me.

    But don't kid yourselves, this is a ploy for those middle ground Hillary backers.....100%.
     
    skydragon58
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:01 PM ET #6

    I don't know KOAJ. I know he is horrible but from what I have read, they are all really bad. Now I shall spell officials correctly. LOL. It's hell when the eye sight goes and the typing never went well to begin with.
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    I don't know KOAJ. I know he is horrible but from what I have read, they are all really bad. Now I shall spell officials correctly. LOL. It's hell when the eye sight goes and the typing never went well to begin with.
     
    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:02 PM ET #7

    I should say MN Senate and House of Representatives. 
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    I should say MN Senate and House of Representatives. 
     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:02 PM ET #8

    But don't kid yourselves, this is a ploy for those middle ground Hillary backers.....100%.
    ----------
    agreed but being that mccain could do it with a conservative woman with executive experience is what makes it a home run
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    But don't kid yourselves, this is a ploy for those middle ground Hillary backers.....100%.
    ----------
    agreed but being that mccain could do it with a conservative woman with executive experience is what makes it a home run
     
    Matador
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:04 PM ET #9

    1 - staunch conservative is a good connotation for conservatives... the opposite of mccain

    Yes, but conservatives would vote for him no matter what. It has a negative connotation for most of the swing constituencies in swing states.

    2 - if they want to talk about her investigation, i'm sure someone can find more evidence of Biden's plagarism out there. non issue...if it was, mccain wouldnt have picked her

    If plagiarism is the best they can attack Biden with after 30 years in the Senate, that's pretty weak. Hell, they had Obama red-handed on plagiarism and the country yawned. Allegations of official malfeasance are a much thornier problem.

    3 - what experience is more valuable, junior senator or state governor?

    Again, this is where finesse comes in. At worst, it hampers McCain's ability to hammer Obama on the issue. It becomes an issue that cuts both ways.




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    1 - staunch conservative is a good connotation for conservatives... the opposite of mccain

    Yes, but conservatives would vote for him no matter what. It has a negative connotation for most of the swing constituencies in swing states.

    2 - if they want to talk about her investigation, i'm sure someone can find more evidence of Biden's plagarism out there. non issue...if it was, mccain wouldnt have picked her

    If plagiarism is the best they can attack Biden with after 30 years in the Senate, that's pretty weak. Hell, they had Obama red-handed on plagiarism and the country yawned. Allegations of official malfeasance are a much thornier problem.

    3 - what experience is more valuable, junior senator or state governor?

    Again, this is where finesse comes in. At worst, it hampers McCain's ability to hammer Obama on the issue. It becomes an issue that cuts both ways.




     
    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:04 PM ET #10

    Ahhh, now it's the exective experience that's so important, even if it's not much at all. 
     
    I though you said she would be a pseudo-senator in her role as VP.
     
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    Ahhh, now it's the exective experience that's so important, even if it's not much at all. 
     
    I though you said she would be a pseudo-senator in her role as VP.
     
     
    Matador
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:08 PM ET #11

    Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

    I
     

     Some of these Hillary backers are crazy women.....almost militant in demeanor...and they don't like to be told what to do. 


    That is a very good and subtle point......
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    Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

    I
     

     Some of these Hillary backers are crazy women.....almost militant in demeanor...and they don't like to be told what to do. 


    That is a very good and subtle point......
     
    Matador
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:22 PM ET #12

    One more detail on the Hillary comparison front: She is an ex-beauty pageant contestant. That emphasizes the very obvious point that she is much younger and VERY MUCH more attractive than Hillary. While good looks probably would have worked to Romney's advantage, and certainly figures to help Palin among most of the electorate, in a perverse way that night not play very well with the over 40 feminist crowd.
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    One more detail on the Hillary comparison front: She is an ex-beauty pageant contestant. That emphasizes the very obvious point that she is much younger and VERY MUCH more attractive than Hillary. While good looks probably would have worked to Romney's advantage, and certainly figures to help Palin among most of the electorate, in a perverse way that night not play very well with the over 40 feminist crowd.
     
    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:25 PM ET #13

    Not sure I agree, Matador.  "She's just not quite ugly enough" doesn't seem to me the type of reaction she would get from the Hillary crowd....as long as she's easy to identify with (regular gal), I think that is much more important.  And being that she's been labeled a "hockey mom," that probably is a good thing for her.
     
    But we'll certainly know more once we find out more about her.
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    Not sure I agree, Matador.  "She's just not quite ugly enough" doesn't seem to me the type of reaction she would get from the Hillary crowd....as long as she's easy to identify with (regular gal), I think that is much more important.  And being that she's been labeled a "hockey mom," that probably is a good thing for her.
     
    But we'll certainly know more once we find out more about her.
     
    Greyhound
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 12:33 PM ET #14

    "but it is posted here by necessity and through no fault of my own"   
     
     
     
     
     
    Who forced you to go on that racist rant and then start creating aliases?       
     
     
       This inmate is innocent
     
     
    I'll give you credit for one thing though.      I don't have to look up the meaning of many words but I had to look up this one.
     
     

    Definitions of perspicacious on the Web:

    • acutely insightful and wise; "much too perspicacious to be taken in by such a spurious argument"; "observant and thoughtful, he was given to ...
    • clear-eyed: mentally acute or penetratingly discerning; "too clear-eyed not to see what problems would follow"; "chaos could be prevented only by clear-sighted leadership"; "much too perspicacious to be taken in by so spurious an argument"
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    • Of acute discernment; having keen insight; mentally perceptive; Having the power of seeing clearly; quick-sighted; sharp-sighted
      en.wiktionary.org/wiki/perspicacious
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    "but it is posted here by necessity and through no fault of my own"   
     
     
     
     
     
    Who forced you to go on that racist rant and then start creating aliases?       
     
     
       This inmate is innocent
     
     
    I'll give you credit for one thing though.      I don't have to look up the meaning of many words but I had to look up this one.
     
     

    Definitions of perspicacious on the Web:

    • acutely insightful and wise; "much too perspicacious to be taken in by such a spurious argument"; "observant and thoughtful, he was given to ...
    • clear-eyed: mentally acute or penetratingly discerning; "too clear-eyed not to see what problems would follow"; "chaos could be prevented only by clear-sighted leadership"; "much too perspicacious to be taken in by so spurious an argument"
      wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    • Of acute discernment; having keen insight; mentally perceptive; Having the power of seeing clearly; quick-sighted; sharp-sighted
      en.wiktionary.org/wiki/perspicacious
     
    Paulsy
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 1:25 PM ET #15

    Quote Originally Posted by Matador:

    One more detail on the Hillary comparison front: She is an ex-beauty pageant contestant. That emphasizes the very obvious point that she is much younger and VERY MUCH more attractive than Hillary. While good looks probably would have worked to Romney's advantage, and certainly figures to help Palin among most of the electorate, in a perverse way that night not play very well with the over 40 feminist crowd.

    Are you saying the over 40 feminists are ugly? Do tell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matador:

    One more detail on the Hillary comparison front: She is an ex-beauty pageant contestant. That emphasizes the very obvious point that she is much younger and VERY MUCH more attractive than Hillary. While good looks probably would have worked to Romney's advantage, and certainly figures to help Palin among most of the electorate, in a perverse way that night not play very well with the over 40 feminist crowd.

    Are you saying the over 40 feminists are ugly? Do tell

     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 2:03 PM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by Matador:

    1 - staunch conservative is a good connotation for conservatives... the opposite of mccain

    Yes, but conservatives would vote for him no matter what. It has a negative connotation for most of the swing constituencies in swing states.

    2 - if they want to talk about her investigation, i'm sure someone can find more evidence of Biden's plagarism out there. non issue...if it was, mccain wouldnt have picked her

    If plagiarism is the best they can attack Biden with after 30 years in the Senate, that's pretty weak. Hell, they had Obama red-handed on plagiarism and the country yawned. Allegations of official malfeasance are a much thornier problem.

    3 - what experience is more valuable, junior senator or state governor?

    Again, this is where finesse comes in. At worst, it hampers McCain's ability to hammer Obama on the issue. It becomes an issue that cuts both ways.






    1 - not in the bag. mccain isnt a conservative. the only way most vote for him is out of fear of having obama in the white house

    2 - there's more, im sure but that one is common knowledge

    3 - i think the words will be "not prepared to lead" as opposed to "inexperienced"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matador:

    1 - staunch conservative is a good connotation for conservatives... the opposite of mccain

    Yes, but conservatives would vote for him no matter what. It has a negative connotation for most of the swing constituencies in swing states.

    2 - if they want to talk about her investigation, i'm sure someone can find more evidence of Biden's plagarism out there. non issue...if it was, mccain wouldnt have picked her

    If plagiarism is the best they can attack Biden with after 30 years in the Senate, that's pretty weak. Hell, they had Obama red-handed on plagiarism and the country yawned. Allegations of official malfeasance are a much thornier problem.

    3 - what experience is more valuable, junior senator or state governor?

    Again, this is where finesse comes in. At worst, it hampers McCain's ability to hammer Obama on the issue. It becomes an issue that cuts both ways.






    1 - not in the bag. mccain isnt a conservative. the only way most vote for him is out of fear of having obama in the white house

    2 - there's more, im sure but that one is common knowledge

    3 - i think the words will be "not prepared to lead" as opposed to "inexperienced"
     
    WussieMan
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 2:27 PM ET #17

     the only way most vote for him is out of fear of having obama in the white house...

     

     

     


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     the only way most vote for him is out of fear of having obama in the white house...

     

     

     


     
    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 2:34 PM ET #18

    3 - i think the words will be "not prepared to lead" as opposed to "inexperienced"
    _______

    That's an awfully tight rope to walk.  Every time this has come up, the two have been linked.  Trying to separate them now would be quite the accomplishment (not putting it past them at all, however). 

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    3 - i think the words will be "not prepared to lead" as opposed to "inexperienced"
    _______

    That's an awfully tight rope to walk.  Every time this has come up, the two have been linked.  Trying to separate them now would be quite the accomplishment (not putting it past them at all, however). 

     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 2:49 PM ET #19

    Quote Originally Posted by WussieMan:

     the only way most vote for him is out of fear of having obama in the white house...

     

     

     




    its not a black thing, its a socialist thing

    google michael steele, i would vote for him tomorrow...heck i would even campaign for him
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    Quote Originally Posted by WussieMan:

     the only way most vote for him is out of fear of having obama in the white house...

     

     

     




    its not a black thing, its a socialist thing

    google michael steele, i would vote for him tomorrow...heck i would even campaign for him
     
    KOAJ
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 2:50 PM ET #20

    Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

    3 - i think the words will be "not prepared to lead" as opposed to "inexperienced"
    _______

    That's an awfully tight rope to walk.  Every time this has come up, the two have been linked.  Trying to separate them now would be quite the accomplishment (not putting it past them at all, however). 



    does robert byrd have experience?

    is robert byrd prepared to lead?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

    3 - i think the words will be "not prepared to lead" as opposed to "inexperienced"
    _______

    That's an awfully tight rope to walk.  Every time this has come up, the two have been linked.  Trying to separate them now would be quite the accomplishment (not putting it past them at all, however). 



    does robert byrd have experience?

    is robert byrd prepared to lead?
     
    jmw59
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 3:37 PM ET #21

    Free Matador for CFB season!
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    Free Matador for CFB season!
     
    LiskCPanthers
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 3:38 PM ET #22

    Of course the Media will bash the Republican party, this should not be a shocker to anyone.
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    Of course the Media will bash the Republican party, this should not be a shocker to anyone.
     
     
    HutchEmAll
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    Posted: Aug. 29, 2008 - 3:45 PM ET #23

    KOAJ-

    I get the difference...it's just that many of the sound bites mention experience along with it.  IF the dems were smart, they would throw those into the face of the republicans.  Republicans would say, "I meant fitness to lead," and the dems would say, "well, you said lack of experience," and play the sound bites.  Then ask them why they picked a VP with similar level of experience.   Trust me, the sound bites are out there....dems are just too stupid to take advantage. 
     
    Here is how hard it is:
     
    On "Morning Joe" on MSNBC in April, McCain, a former Navy fighter pilot, responded with derision to Obama's call for leaving a limited strike force in Iraq. "I think somebody ought to ask what in the world he's talking about, especially since he has no experience or background at all in national security affairs," McCain told host Joe Scarborough.
     
    Wow, is that tough. 
     
    Even though she's a VP, the opportunity is there.  And they won't take it.  Obama camp is taking the high road this election and we'll see where that gets him.
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    KOAJ-

    I get the difference...it's just that many of the sound bites mention experience along with it.  IF the dems were smart, they would throw those into the face of the republicans.  Republicans would say, "I meant fitness to lead," and the dems would say, "well, you said lack of experience," and play the sound bites.  Then ask them why they picked a VP with similar level of experience.   Trust me, the sound bites are out there....dems are just too stupid to take advantage. 
     
    Here is how hard it is:
     
    On "Morning Joe" on MSNBC in April, McCain, a former Navy fighter pilot, responded with derision to Obama's call for leaving a limited strike force in Iraq. "I think somebody ought to ask what in the world he's talking about, especially since he has no experience or background at all in national security affairs," McCain told host Joe Scarborough.
     
    Wow, is that tough. 
     
    Even though she's a VP, the opportunity is there.  And they won't take it.  Obama camp is taking the high road this election and we'll see where that gets him.
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