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On-line poker rigged discussion (again)

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Captain
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Posted: #1
Let me start by saying what I believe:
 
1) There are NO poker bots
2) There are a lot of bad players on-line and in turn there are going to be more bad beats
3) You see a lot more hands on-line so it will seem like there are more bad beats
 
Now this is what I am starting to possibly suspect:
 
If you cash out a decent amount of money, there seems to be a losing streak that follows.  I don't know maybe it's me and I get tight because I have just decreased my bankroll but I have suspected this before and have just experienced again today.  I had cashed out a good amount on Friday, was away on the weekend and started playing again today.  I usually play sit 'n gos, mostly 1 table  - 9 player or 2 player - 18 table.  Two situtation that stick out are actually the last two tourney's I played and I am done for at least a few days.
 
1) 18 player sit 'n go top 4 pays - down to five players
 
  - sitting  UTG in 2nd place (about 4700 in chips) with JJ,
  - I raise 5xBB ($1000)
  - fold around to BB who calls (our chip leader with about 5000 in chips)
  - flop comes 3 9 J, rainbow
  - BB bets $600, I reraise another $1000 and he pushes all-in and of course I call
  - he got 9h 8d, middle pair and I of course have trip Jacks
  - turn is 9
  - river is 9
 
His quad 9s bet my boat and I go out on the bubble
 
First who calls in the BB with 98 off suite facing a 5x raise
Second who pushes all-in against a raise from the preflop raise with MIDDLE PAIR
 
2) 18 player sit 'n go top 4 pays - down to six players
 
 - I limp in on the button with Kd Jd, two previous limpers, SB calls, BB checks
 - flop comes Ad, 6d, 10s (nut flush and gut shot draws for me)
 - SB check, BB checks, next position bets 2x BB, fold by next position, call by me and fold by both blinds
 - turn comes 5d for me to make my nut flush
 - buddy bets 6xBB, I reraise all-in and he calls with 7d 8d for lesser flush
 - river comes 4d for him to hit his straight flush to be my nut flush
 
Now I don't blame this guy for calling but to go out like that in back to back tourney, on or close to the bubble is unbelievable.
 
 
Any comments are appreciated for the record I don't think I played either hand poorly, although I could have reraise preflop in the second situation.
 
 
 
 
Captain
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Posted: #2
My point being that these bad beats seem to happen a lot more after a withdrawal.  Anyone else experience this.
 
Legend
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Posted: #3
I was in a funk the last few weeks on-line.  Losing with dominating hands and to 2-outers.  I just kept playing and finally had a nice day last Saturday (mainly because my hands held up....I didn't play that much different).
 
Here is another anecdote:  Friend of mine withdrew a big chunk of money from bodog, but left in some to play SNG's as well as MTT's with.  FIRST NIGHT after withdrawing he decides to sit down at a 3/6 NL table (buy in for $200).  15 minutes in, he gets A-Q in middle position and opens for a raise.  SB and BB call.  Flop is Q-Q-9 rainbow.  SB bets half pot.  BB folds.  My buddy makes a significant raise.  SB goes all in and has my buddy covered.  He calls of course.  Guy has Q-4 and rivers a 4 for to make his boat.  Pretty interesting.
 
I play almost all SNG's.  I just don't trust the cash games.  Personally, it is my opinion that you see a lot more flops which will stimulate action on line.  Flush and straight draws.  Lots of aces flop so you have confrontations with kickers making the difference.   That sort of thing.  I'm not saying it favors any player.....only that it's ironic how often you see "action" flops on-line.  I saw an article that supposedly did study where aces flopped almost 6%-8% more often then statistically should happen....based on a large sample size.  To me, that's significant.
 
So I don't think poker sites are favoring any one player....just that the cards tend to stimulate a decent amount of action.
 
 
Prospect
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Posted: #4
 
Rookie
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Posted: #5
You're wrong about 1. there most certainly are poker bots especially on new sites where there is not much traffic. I've known of tables with one player and 8 bots. You can abuse them, call them cocksuckers, cheats, liars and they never ever respond. They also fold in unison like a fucking cheerleading troop on cocaine.
 
As for rigged software, no one knows the answer to this. I have noticed nothing out of the ordinary either before during or after cashouts. I personally believe it is random until someone comes up with convincing evidence which they haven't done yet. There is a tenth of the reason for a poker site to be rigged compared to a casino site as you are not playing against the house and I think casino sites are random (again no one knows).
 
Prospect
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Posted: #6
Quote Originally Posted by forkboy:

My point being that these bad beats seem to happen a lot more after a withdrawal.  Anyone else experience this.
 
Yes.  I have made withdrawals 4-5 times since sept. and every time afterwards I have run into more than usual bad beats.  Now why is this?  I don't think I play different, it just seems those strong hands (AA, KK) do not hold up.  I had the same thing happen my flush losing to a straight flush.  I flopped an ACE high flush and the guy caught runner runner to make a straight flush.  I know this stuff happens and "that's poker" but it does seem strange that it happens more after a withdrawal.
 
Prospect
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Posted: #7
Usually after a day or so of this I will take some time off, maybe 4-5 days.  I just try to get away and not have the bad beats on my mind when I resume playing.  I tend to do better, but also those hands seem to hold up.  I always think there will be some doubt about online poker because we don't really know 100% about any of these sites. 
 
Veteran
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Posted: #8
when I came in 2nd in a $15,000 guarenteed tourney paid about $3300 I couldn't win shit after.  It got to the point where I changed sites.  However compare it to sports gambling when your on a winning streak than withdraw some cash I sometimes start losing right after as well.  Maybe no different in poker, we might be due to lose.
 
Captain
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Posted: #9
I can say I'm on the same boat when it comes to withdrawing a decent amount, and then going on a cold streak for a while.  I actually stopped playing online because of it
 
Captain
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Posted: #10
Well this is just F*CKING BS.  I starting playing again today and I kid you not, I have played three sit 'n gos:
 
First Tourny: 
 - Knock out Raising with pockets 9's (7xBB raise), one caller (middle stack just has me covered)
- Flop comes 4 2 8, rainbow, caller checks I bet the pot and caller reraises all-in (I call, if he has trips hats  off to him)
- caller has Q 3 offsuite (what the F*ck), turn is a 7, river is a Q and I am gone
 
Second Tourny
- Raise back and forth preflop and I go all-in with pocket Kings
- caller has pocket 5's again has me covered but not by much
- flops a 5 and I am gone
 
Third Tourny
- First damn hand of the Tourny, I am in BB with pocket 10's (good start maybe my luck has changed), UTG calls BB, Button raise 4xBB, I raise 10xBB, call by UTG and Button
- flop comes 8 J 10 rainbow, I am not messing around because what has happened I bet out the pot
- UTG raise all-in, button folds, I call
- UTG has f*cking Q9 off suite for the straight and of course the board doesn't pair on the turn or the river so I am done
 
Am I cursed?  are people idiots? or maybe there are poker bots.  I mean these calls are unbelievable, 89 off in my first thread, Q3 off, Q9 against raise and reraise.  It's not like I am playing $3 sit ' gos either.  This is five straight tourny in a row after a big withdrawal.  It is one thing to lose but this is huge BS.
 
 
Captain
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Posted: #11
Let me just clarify also that I am not a friggin loose cannon at the table, throwing out a bunch of bluffs and shit, so that these guys are calling thinking I am full of it.
 
Rookie
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Posted: #12
forkboy, just wondering why you think (or used to think) that there is no such thing as poker bots.
 
Captain
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Posted: #13
thaute,
 
I just think that poker bots would be suicide for the on-line poker industry.  I mean they are already guarnteed a profit with the rake and they make crazy money everyday from that rake, which everybody accepts.  Why put in poker bots risk being found out by some computer guru and losing all your business, maybe fraud charges, maybe jail etc?  The people that create, manage and own these sites are business people and sure the business and especially internet world can be shady  but why risk crazy profit and jail time for more crazy profit.  I am obviously a gambler as all of us on Covers.com are but that is not a gamble most of us would take I would think. 
 
So I guess by asnwering your question I have answered my own about on-line being rigged, why do it? 
 
I am also feeling better because I just finished in the money so my hex is gone for the time being and I am not as conspiracy minded right now.
 
Just my two cents
 
Rookie
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Posted: #14
New sites use bots because they don't have enough traffic and they want to draw new players in. You know the score, you go to a new site and there are no players so you leave. It is not illegal and there is nothing in their terms and conditions to say they can't do it- they deny it of course if you ask them. And no one could prove it conclusively either. When WSex started their rake free site the joint was full of bots. I don't mind playing them actually, they are usually pretty dumb and predictable, making value bets, playing tight, a reraise on the flop is often enough to steal the pot from them. Plus you can let rip at them and they wont ever reply. It's therapeutic to call a "person" a box after every hand.
 
This is the order in which these issues concern me with online poker.:
 
1. Collusion
2. Bots
3. Rigged software
 
 
Captain
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Posted: #15
Why would a site create bots to lose? To attract customers, I doubt it?  Maybe on occasion but lose regularly and take them for a profit that would be giving money away, hardly a way to get a new site off the ground.  As for bots winning it is called fraud and it is illegal
 
Fraud: (from Dictionary.com)
 
deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
 
Rookie
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Posted: #16
They don't create them to lose, they probably play tight enough to break even or better against the average player with the long term aim of creating traffic.
 
A dictionary and a court of law are two different things. There are plenty of actions that are deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage which are perfectly legal. I know because people do it to me all the time and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
 
MVP
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Posted: #17
I cash out a lot and i dont feel that after i cash out i lose more.  I feel its the same and just a bad run here and there.
 
Legend
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Posted: #18
It definitely feels streaky to me.  Just the nature of the beast.  I think what people fail to realize is that even though they think they're playing a lot, they are not.  So it is all the short run.  A lot of things can happen in the short run.  Hard to really judge much until you've played ohhh, say 50,000 hands (cash game).  That could take 1,000 hours of play.  Probably very few people ever really play long-run.  And those that get there, are usually winners.
 
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Posted: #19
Hutch and Forkboy, which sites were this?
 
Legend
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Posted: #20
cute-
 
I play on bodog.  Mostly SNG's and the MTT's with the huge overlays. 
 
Here is something that a buddy of mine sent me from his play last night:  
 
"Playing in the 10K rebuy last night.  Towards end of 1st hour I have A 4 suited in the cutoff and limp in.  Flop comes Q 4 4.  Guy ahead of me bets pot, I reraise 2X pot. He reraises all in, I call, he flips Q 5 and rivers a Q to 2 out me.  I rebought.  In the meantime this same guy has 2 2 and busts a guy with K K when he catches a 2 on the flop.  Then he gets all in with Q Q against a guy with K K and busts him when he catches a Q on the river.  In the meantime I build my stack to about 3200 (from 1000).  Right after the 1st break (about 20 min after he 2 outed me the 1st time).  I am in BB with 7 9.  Blinds are 50/100.  Guy UTG raises to 200 and gets a couple calls.  So 700 in pot.  I am getting 7-1 to call the extra 100 so I do.  Flop comes 7 7 Q.  HMM guess what happens.  I check that same guy bets, I raise, he reraises all in, I call.  He flip A Q and hits another f-ing Q on the river to knock me out.  Then he says “ha ha that’s what you get for playing 7 9”.  I went ballistic – I wanted to reach through the computer and choke his ass.  Instead I explained that I’d call with any two cards getting 7-1 for an extra 100 of my 3K + stack.  Then I called him out for being a bodog shill.  In my mind that’s the only way you can explain him hitting 4 two outers in a span of 20 minutes while making bad plays.  I can’t explain it any other way – too fishy."
 
And this is after he had a couple weeks of reasonably successful play (mostly MTT's). 
 
One thing people have to realize is that you can get your money in as a 4:1 favorite consistently and you're STILL going to end up losing 1 in 5 hands at least....sometimes more.  And to go deep in a big tournament, you're going to need to win a decent amount of all in plays....some of them pre-flop.
 
But when you look at the examples above, it makes you scratch your head.
 
And I've run into similar situations.  Whenever I have a good couple of nights, I seem to run cold for 2-3 nights after that.  Granted, luck and probability are part of cards.....it just seems like it runs in streaks if you ask me.  And I have played about 45,000 hands....just FYI.
 
 
 
 
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Posted: #21
its garbage, the hands dont hold up like they should and there is wayyyy too many monster vs monster hands going at it to increase rake. Also when it is tourney time the bigger stack sucks out when behing like 75% of the time to speed the tourney up, its a joke. I play live a ton and shit like that happens of course but not nearly as frequent. the more hands per hour theory doesnt work either cuz i see more suckouts and bad beats in 100 hands online than 100 live, its just not realistic poker
 
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Posted: #22
Depeche has got it right as usual. There are huge swings of bankroll in poker and you need about 40k hands to start getting a clearer picture of what to expect in terms of win rates and the shit you are likely to see when you play this game.
 
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Posted: #23
Quote Originally Posted by Fadeville:

Depeche has got it right as usual. There are huge swings of bankroll in poker and you need about 40k hands to start getting a clearer picture of what to expect in terms of win rates and the shit you are likely to see when you play this game.
 
The internet is bogus, period
 
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Posted: #24
Quote Originally Posted by ChanceP:

 
The internet is bogus, period
 
Well that's that then. Thanks for that piece of information.
 
 
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Posted: #25
Playing on-line poker is insanity.  I joined a site, and my very first hand I flopped a straight flush.  Was winning winning winning.  They suck you in.  Then you start losing, aces and kings constantly get cracked by 9-4 off suit after you flop a set or an up and down straight or are four to the flush.  If you don't think that it's rigged, you are very naive.  There is zero regulation.  Who's monitoring these sites?  On this same sight,  I had Q-10 in my hand.  Flop comes Q 10 2.  I go all in.  A "guy" with pocket 7's calls me and catches a 7 on the river.  Now, I play a lot of cash games, and even the worst that I play with fold 7's there.  Here's the best part, I go to another table, and the same "guy" shows up a minute later and hits me with another absurd suckout.  Never again will I play online.  Live cash games and tournaments for me.  And that's it.  A friend of mine still plays online and he says whenever he makes a withdrawal, he goes on a losing streak, and suffers bad beat after bad beat after runner runner suckout.
 
GOOD LUCK!
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