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Would you lay down this hand????

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Posted: #1
I cashed out $3K 3 days ago after a good week.
Had $500 in the account and sat down in a 2-4 NL table yesterday.
Looked down at Ah, Kd and raised $12 out of the button with 1 caller in front of me.
 
Flopped Jh, Jd, 4c.
Caller checked to me and I bet the pot.
Caller called and here comes the turned card which is the Ad.
Caller checked and I bet $50 which he called...at this point, I put him on a A4...when he made the called after the flopped or a A trash card.
It was hard to imagine he would have a J in his hand since the guy never re-raised me after the flopped but he could be trapping me.  
River card came out Js and he bet all-in.
 
So the board looked like this, Jh, Jd, 4c, Ad, Js.
 
and I am holding Ah, Kd.
If he had the quad Js...wouldn't he checked since I've been betting before the flopped and every card?
Another questions I asked myself is...is this guy stealing the pot or made it seem like he is stealing the pot even though he got the nuts?
 
I am holding Ah, Kd...only hand that could beat me is quad Jacks and the guy bet all-in.
 
Do I fold or do I call???? He has me cover on the all-in.
 
 
 
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Posted: #2
Call.
 
Most likely a split pot
 
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Posted: #3
so what happened?
 
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Posted: #4
How much for the all in? If it's internet poker and probably not deep stack then there's no way you can really avoid calling here. As you say, he may have been slowplaying the Jacks and bets the river because he was scared you would just check it down with the third jack hitting and is putting you on the Ace which he knows you can't fold. He could be stealing and as you say he could be looking like he's stealing. That's the thing about internet play, there is such a variety of ways they can play these hands and so many hands that they can play it is often very difficult to put them on a hand.
 
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Posted: #5
Ya like the previous poster said, it looks like he could've been slow playing Jacks and bets the river in fear that you might check.  If I were in your position and he checked the river I would've as well (exactly what he was afraid of had he had a Jack).  Depending how much he was pushing all-in it could be a steal very ballsy considering you bet pre-flop, the flop and the turn.  I see a steal here unlikely, they would've probably tried to steal the pot by coming over the top earlier.

And personally here I'd probably call depending on how much it was.  You're only beat by a Jack and have quite a bit in the pot.  If you truly suspect that he's trying to steal you'd be more inclined to call.  Considering you're only beat by 1 card a call isn't really a terrible play. 

How did the hand turn out?  I'm guessing from the title you threw it away?


 
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Posted: #6
WOW, i think i wouldve folded that on the turn even after hitting the ace. No way he has a4, no way at all, he definitly wouldve raised that on the flop to see where he is at. It was a rainbow flop and they didnt connect in anyway, what do you posisbly think he is calling with? comon now. I really dont see any way he doesnt have the jack, unless he got crazy with a hand like qq or kk or something. Did you not notice something was fishy when he was check calling you the whole way but there was no draw on the board. A4 is not a good enough hand to slowplay, nothing really on that board besides a jack is possible to slowplay unless you can see their cards.
 
I can tell you the exact reason he went all in on the river instead of checking with the nuts. How about because the board was so weak, he thought you might check behind him. I know i wouldnt play the hand in this way but if i got in this spot, with quads, you pretty much have to bet the river because likely with no draws or anything out there you either were bluffing or had a hand good enough to call his all in.
 
Also, the way you played the hand, it was reletively obvious what you had. You raise to 12 preflop, nothing there, then follow up with a pot bet on the flop with jj4 bet, if he has the jack he obviously knows you dont, and that pot bet is not normaly how people play their overpairs, but it is not out of the question of course. However then you bet 50 into the 70ish pot which seems more like a value bet and that would mean,  AK/AQ region of hands. If he is a strong player, which i think he could be because if he did htink you had ak then that was a very good push on the river.
 
In my opinion, that was definitly a folding situation.
 
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Posted: #7
When the river card came and it was a J, by him putting me all in, I knew he had quads. My weakness in this situation tells me I couldn't fold to the only hand that I knew could of beat me and that was quad Js.
 
I've been in situation before where I folded K high flush because the other player put me all in on the river card. One time that this happen and he showed me his bluff...he didn't even have a flush nor a A high flush for that matter. I folded a K high flush because of the all in move on the river, even though the only other flush that could beat me at that time was A high.
 
Spoon..certain players who don't raised or bet after the flopped and turned because they sense the other players aggressive style and let their opponent do the betting. In this case, I was the aggressor. A value bet into a $70 pot is not $50...generally, a value bet is 1/3 of the pot in my book. It's one of those please call me kind of bet. A overbet is in my book as a please don't call me bet. A $50 bet into a $70 pot is one of those bets that is either or.
 
So as you can see, because I was bluff on that one time in a big pot and folded K high flush ....that recollection made me called the all-in bet on the river on this particular hand because the only hand that could of beat me was quad Js. Like one other person pointed out here, if I was playing a live cash game, I would of find a read on my opponent to fold the boat I had...instead, playing online made me vulnerable in a situation like this. But when a situation like this arises...it's hard not to pay the other guy off..I don't know alot of people who would fold a boat. Unless that are totally convince 100% sure and not look the other guy up.
 
 
 
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Posted: #8
So he had the jack?
 
there is no standard for what a value bet is, and it doesnt have to be 1/3 of the pot by any means. Obviously, but apparently not to you, a value bet, is a bet to get value. If you think the person will put in all of their chips, then you can value bet all in, you are getting the most value out of your bet. In most situations will you be pot bettign or overbetting as a value bet but it can be that way. Many advanced player play based off what they think their opponent has, if you thought that he had a4, im sure you thought he was going to call a turn bet, his hand did improve afterall, and so betting 50 was what you saw as the most you could bet and still have him call. That is a value bet.
 
Also, what the fuck does a completely different situation versus a completely different player have to do with the hand you described.  If just because you got bluffed by an allin bet one time, you made this call, then you need some serious help with your poker game.
 
Playing in a live game would not have helped you either unless this guy just learned the game or something. Not every single person has an obvious tell all of the time. Im pretty sure you still wouldve made that same, terrible, call if you were playing live. Versus an uknown opponent, how are you possibly going to make a basis for judgement when you dont even have anything to compare to. What im saying is, you dont know how he acts when he has a big hand or a just shit so what he does could mean anything.
 
"I dont know a lot of people who would fold a boat." How far out of context do you want to take it...obviously you wont be folding a boat on a regular basis but in this situation a boat isnt as strong as if the board is like qj108q.
 
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Posted: #9
and just for the record, 2 hands beat you, AA as well as Jx
 
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Posted: #10
Spoon, I paid the guy off. I chose to discussed about this hand because I knew he had quad Js but decided to look him up. My gut told me to fold the hand but my emotion took the best of me because I was already betting before the flopped, after the river and on the turned. To improve on my poker game, I replay the hand I lose and see what I can do differently in the future but the same exact hand will create a different situation as far as possibility are concern.
 
I'll tell you this....I got beat holding a boat 3 times in my poker cash game life and 2 of those times the guy made a straight flush on the river and 3rd quad Js on the river. I won plenty of hands not folding a boat in my poker life so to say not folding a boat when there are only 2 hands out there that can beat you is what I called "scare little poker bitch". I believe that will give a new meaning to tight assholes which something you are not...at least I hope not.
 
It was a wrong moved on my part and I will continue to lose hands like the one above cause I will never fold a boat in any situation. AGain....I will not fold a boat in any situation regardless of the circumstances. I have folded KK and AA after the flopped numerous of times and folded a set after the flopped when the guy put me all in and have no regrets. But folding a boat on the river regardless how much the guy bet is something I will have plenty of regrets if that ever happen for me personally.
 
If you can fold the hand I had on the river because the guy went all in..than you my friend are one of those many so-called professional. I am not, but have made plenty of money calling or check-raising on the river with a boat.
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: #11
I dont get this at all. So you knew he had the jack, and called? You couldnt beat him obviously so why did you call, just let the hand go. Obviously a boat is a big hand but as i said, its not that big when the board is the way it was. Im really just baffled here because, in theory, when you know they have you  beat, you either fold or raise depending on how badly you think they have you, but not call?
 
It doesnt matter if youve never been beat holding a full house or if youve been  beat every single time youve had a boat, you play the situation. Your past winnings with boats should have no influence on how you played that hand, of course not everytime that is the board you should be folding the ace but in that situation, you have to fold.
 
no comment on "scared little bitch poker"
 
The amount the guy bet shouldnt have been the reason you fold, the betting pattern that he was going with was what you shouldve based your decision off. This guy is check calling, can be seen as mildly weak, then all of a sudden he decides he likes his hand for all his chips?
 
Obviously im no pro (yet ), but i do consider myself an advanced player and all im trying to say is that, for casual play, go ahead and play that way, it probably wont matter, but if you are more serious about it then you cant just go off calling EVERY time you have a full house.
 
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Posted: #12
It was a wrong moved on my part and I will continue to lose hands like the one above cause I will never fold a boat in any situation. 
 
Well, it depends on the kinds of boat you are holding.  If there are three eights of the board, I think it's easier to fold because one one card can beat you.  but if there are two eights on the board, your opponent must have pocket eights which is rare.  Also, I'm always cautious when I have an underboat because I opponent could always hit their kicker.
 
That's why I always tell people who start playing N/L holdem to try and use BOTH of their hole cards to make a hand.  Two reasons:  1.  you will make a lot more money by using both hole cards(why sets are a lot better than trips)  2.  If your going to use one card, you will split the pot most of the time.
 
If I have A 7 and the flop is 8 6 5.  I rarely chase for the straight.  If my opponent holds 9 7 or 10 7, I could be in trouble.  On the other hand, if they don't have a seven when a 9 or 4 comes, you will not get paid off.   
 
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Posted: #13

I hear ya fellas...online poker is another beast I will not tackle. I'll stick to cash games...but the bad luck didn't really started happening til I cash out. What a jinx..getting beat going all in with pocket AA against 55 after I re-raised the guy 2 times when he flopped a set of 5s and also losing an all-in with a boat.

 
 
 
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Posted: #14
Quote Originally Posted by texancapper:

I will not fold a boat in any situation regardless of the circumstances.
 
Absolutism will not win you very much money at the poker table.
 
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Posted: #15
 all boats are not created equal, unless if you have the absolute nut full house there are always higher boats that can beat you, if you have Q T, board is Q Q T 9 8, no hand can beat you and hopefully someone goes nuts with a straight. I have found that low pocket pairs can kill you, because with say pocket 4's, flop is 4 9 T, then J, J on the turn and river well you have your full house but J, 9, J T are hands that people will play if limits are low. and what do you do when you flop a full house with 4,5 flop is 4 4 5 then Q Q on turn and river, and someone with A Q decided to stay in because you slow played the boat. some boats aren't worth a shit
 
 
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Posted: #16
Have to agree with the guys, texancapper.  I see your point that you would be leaving money on the table folding full houses, but you have to play the situation.  I've lots boatloads on underfulls as Godfather described and have learned to occasionally fold them based on the situation.  There are just no absolutes in poker since it's a people game.
 
 
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