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Interesting Story about Union Retirement...

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Posted: #26

Auto Workers were making close to $40/hour, including their ridiculous health benefits... before the Sh!tstorm hit in 2008.   That's close to $90k / year, folks.

Unsustainable. 

 

 
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Posted: #27
Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

If cuts are allowed, retired truck driver Glenn Nicodemus, 63, could see his monthly benefits fall from around $3,300 a month to as little as $1,180. He retired in March after nearly 40 years on the road, and his only other source of income is $1,700 a month in Social Security benefits.
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Retired at 63.  How many people are able to do that nowadays?  I probably won't  My dad worked for the State of MN and retired at 70.  It's called reality.  

 

darn you, youre out of your friggin mind, "work till 70"? Sorry, theres plenty of money in this country, the problem is that .001% of America have it all. Germany, the most unionized country in the world, with free healthcare, free college, the most paid sick and vacation time- by law.....Has the strongest economy in the world- And EVBERYBODY has a life..

 

 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by NumbersCruncher:

 

darn you, youre out of your friggin mind, "work till 70"? Sorry, theres plenty of money in this country, the problem is that .001% of America have it all. Germany, the most unionized country in the world, with free healthcare, free college, the most paid sick and vacation time- by law.....Has the strongest economy in the world- And EVBERYBODY has a life..

 

yep. Homogeny works.
 
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Posted: #29
Quote Originally Posted by Skipbone:

yep. Homogeny works.


YES, YES, YES!!! (I so wish I could make the letters 10 times the size)



I thought I was the only one to Get it....

BUT!!! If you bring that up there is a whole list of names that you become. The Fact you are only bringing up Facts is irrelevant.
 
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Posted: #30
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

Anybody in their right mind should prefer a 401(k) to a pension.   Take care of your own money,..... and keep it.

Ask yourself a basic question ; would I want to place the fortunes of my retirement in the hands of a corporation,  or city government, etc.

Go ask the folks that worked at GM, Chrysler, city of Detroit, ... 

 

For those that say a pension was part of their compensation package ; bologna.. They only received those packages because they had a greedy a$$ Union behind them, and helped negotiate ridiculous health benefits to boot.

The contracts are unsustainable,  people !!!!  There's a reason why those companies and cities did not succeed !!!

 



First off pal, dont blame under funded pension plans on the unions and workers.  You are the typical type of guy who wants to blame the wrong person for this problem.  The company could have just said we dont offer retirement plans and told the workers that from day one.  They are the ones who agreed to the pension plans and are the ones who didnt do what was right.  Instead they used these workers for their best working years and then say sorry, we cant give you what we told you we would give you, for working all those years and putting profits in our pockets.
As far as 401k, a lot of people dont want to be bothered or dont know how to invest, thus the reason they liked to work for a company that would handle their retirement plans for them.  Everybody cant be as smart and great as the great rush.

Like i said to Hutch, if you were supposed to collect 1000 bucks in your paycheck every week, but was only 400 in at the end of the week, would you blame yourself and tell the company thats okay.  I friggin doubt it, you would be mad as hell.

All these big companies used their workers like person their whole lives, now they dont want to pay up.  They should have told all of them, there was no pensions from the start, that way the workers could have worked out a better plan for their retirement years

Shame on you for falling for the BS of blaming the workers for this, really shame on you. 

You are typical of whats wrong with the people in our country, so worried about somebody else getting something, you hope they fail, yet you keep your mouth shut about about how the big corporations have ruined our country and economy by sending all the jobs overseas to pay people slave wages to work for them.

Outstanding Rush, you are one swell guy
 
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Posted: #31
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

Auto Workers were making close to $40/hour, including their ridiculous health benefits... before the Sh!tstorm hit in 2008.   That's close to $90k / year, folks.

Unsustainable. 

 



Thats the workers fault?  get real.  The company didnt have to offer any of that, if they didnt want to.   You had better open your eyes and start realizing who is screwing over our country and it sure as hell isnt the working person.

I doubt if you were one of those auto workers, you wouldn t be typing jack shitttttt right now
 
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Posted: #32

Quote Originally Posted by cd329:



First off pal, dont blame under funded pension plans on the unions and workers.  You are the typical type of guy who wants to blame the wrong person for this problem.  The company could have just said we dont offer retirement plans and told the workers that from day one.  They are the ones who agreed to the pension plans and are the ones who didnt do what was right.  Instead they used these workers for their best working years and then say sorry, we cant give you what we told you we would give you, for working all those years and putting profits in our pockets.
As far as 401k, a lot of people dont want to be bothered or dont know how to invest, thus the reason they liked to work for a company that would handle their retirement plans for them.  Everybody cant be as smart and great as the great rush.

Like i said to Hutch, if you were supposed to collect 1000 bucks in your paycheck every week, but was only 400 in at the end of the week, would you blame yourself and tell the company thats okay.  I friggin doubt it, you would be mad as hell.

All these big companies used their workers like person their whole lives, now they dont want to pay up.  They should have told all of them, there was no pensions from the start, that way the workers could have worked out a better plan for their retirement years

Shame on you for falling for the BS of blaming the workers for this, really shame on you. 

You are typical of whats wrong with the people in our country, so worried about somebody else getting something, you hope they fail, yet you keep your mouth shut about about how the big corporations have ruined our country and economy by sending all the jobs overseas to pay people slave wages to work for them.

Outstanding Rush, you are one swell guy

 

Sorry, CD, but you are missing the bigger picture.   Companies are not the ones doing the negotiating or making deals with the Employees.   It's those damn Unions !!! 

 
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Posted: #33

Quote Originally Posted by cd329:



Thats the workers fault?  get real.  The company didnt have to offer any of that, if they didnt want to.   You had better open your eyes and start realizing who is screwing over our country and it sure as hell isnt the working person.

I doubt if you were one of those auto workers, you wouldn t be typing jack shitttttt right now

The company didn't have a choice ?? Don't you get it with those Damn Unions and ridiculous compensation packages they "Forced" (i.e. negotiated??) for the companies' employees. The Great Recession only exposed them for what they truly were the Company.  A bad deal for employees, stakeholders, and bondholders ; you can thank O'bama for that last one.

Looking Forward, Go look at the compensation packages (hourly wage + pensions + health benefits) that  NEW  auto employees are offered.  Much more reasonable, and auto companies have been expanding and hiring more employees to increase production (yeah !!)

But, I'm sure you'll agree that Unions will increase their clout in the not-too-distant-future, forcing the Companies to take it up the A$$ again, struggle financially, lay-off works, etc.  and the cycle repeat itself . 

....  If you care so much for the employee (like we all should care for all people equally), you'd get this....

You DEMS are such emotional creatures.  Step back, take a look at what works/doesn't work, and apply Logic.

 
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Posted: #34
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

The company didn't have a choice ?? Don't you get it with those Damn Unions and ridiculous compensation packages they "Forced" (i.e. negotiated??) for the companies' employees. The Great Recession only exposed them for what they truly were the Company.

  There you go.........the unions are the problem. No way should anyone get paid a decent wage & have some health insurance. Why do we need a middle class? We should all be happy being servants to our govt.
 
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Posted: #35
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

Auto Workers were making close to $40/hour, including their ridiculous health benefits... before the Sh!tstorm hit in 2008.   That's close to $90k / year, folks.

Unsustainable. 

 

hyundai cars are 30k now. it is sustainable to pay those wages and health care when you charge that $$$ for a crap car

 
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Posted: #36

detroit auto makers went bankrupt because of a bad product, not because of the pensions they promised.  you cant sell a half behind product for the same price of a foreign product that is made better and lasts just as long.  pontiac gave up.  ford sucks in my opinion.  i always was an american car buyer until about 5 years ago.  i now have german made and japanese made cars.  for the price you cant beat them.  before anyone bashes me for not buying american, some foreign cars are made in the usa

 

i work for a worlwide company. i am union. i pay my dues every month.  i make a good living because of the union contract, and every 5 years a new contract comes along, its gets a little worse everytime.  but without the union, the greedy company that i slave at that only cares about its stockholders and driving the price up higher every Q, they would pay us min wages with crap health ins.

i know how much the fat cats in the union are making, but im also making probably double what i would if it was a non- union job.  what some dont know is 401k plans started out for exec's and top management to hide their money and avoid high tax brackets.  then some smart college grad told them their 401k plans will do away with pensions if offered to the general work force.  50 years ago there were so many different unions,  now only a handful but the ones left are strong. 

 

how many companys took gov't bailouts, and paid their ceo's millions in bonus.  its not the greed of the unions that destroy good paying blue collar jobs.  its corporate greed that is the evil.  they want all the pie not just a piece

 
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Posted: #37
Quote Originally Posted by THEMUGG:

  There you go.........the unions are the problem. No way should anyone get paid a decent wage & have some health insurance. Why do we need a middle class? We should all be happy being servants to our govt.

6 figures with overtime to install bumpers on a car is a joke. 
 
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Posted: #38
And like I said, as soon as someone starts expressing outrage about the fact that a company stiffed us for 15k, I will get upset about a company screwing an individual. Please tell me how this is different.  Our company was promised things in writing in terms of paying invoices. They just went bankrupt and ignored their obligations. Where is my recourse?  
 
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Posted: #39
Quote Originally Posted by cd329:

Hutch, lets make this real simple, you cant ask a person to work their whole lives at a company with the belief that if they take lower wages during their working years, they will earn a pension in retirement.  That is just plain wrong on every level.  Like others have said, if the company is going to offer this stuff, then its on them to figure out exactly how it needs to be funded.  After a person puts in their best working years with the belief, that they will have a pension when they retire, suddenly fund out from the company, sorry we cant pay you what we said we would pay you.  Thats total BS.  So i guess all these people need to just go start over in the working world, even thou their best years are behind them now and will be tough to compete for jobs with the better in shape younger workers. On top of that, they probably wont have enough working years left to actually fund any type of retirement.
So you want to sit here and blame the worker?  Get real, this is all on the company.  I have no problem, if a company doesnt want to offer a pension plan or health insurance or any other benefits but they need to tell the worker from day one about that, so that worker can decide if they still want to work for that company or start a career at another job.
So sick of reading all the stories put out by big business blaming the workers, when the truth is, its the greedy companies fault.

Am sure if you worked for a company instead of yourself and your weekly paycheck was supposed to be 1000 bucks a week, but every week when you picked up your check, it was only for 400 and the company said sorry we cant pay you the 1000 we promised to pay you for your work.  I doubt you would okay with that and be blaming yourself for the company not being able to pay you.

You just cant have companies telling employees what they will earn and then never actually paying up, after using them for their whole working lives.

But a company can tell my company they won't pay up when they promised to pay us and used us to supply employees to help run their business?

Please tell how my situation is different than Joe Public who is getting stiffed on their pension by a company. 
 
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Posted: #40
Quote Originally Posted by Raisethis2:

Sounds like Hutch needs a Snickers Bar. 

First: There are risks being in business. I own one, I know. Regarding the company that went bankrupt, you should have told them to bite off. Sue me. 

Regarding defined benefits pensions and this case in particular. In a Union situation you give up cash on the barrel head today, for the promise a pension provides. The company has a moral obligation to properly fund their pension liabilities to ensure the dollars are there to meet the obligations and the promises they make during Collective Bargaining. 

The person above who indicated that government failed in their responsibility to adequately police these plans is exactly right. I'd go further to suggest we know which political party has most opposed placing such regulations on businesses. 

Now, the chickens have come home to roost. This and similar moral and ethical breakdowns regarding pension obligations ( both private and public) will occur at an extremely accelerated pace in the years to come. Don't think for a minute that people of the baby boomer generation will sit idle while this happens. They will  (rightly so) feel compelled to receive an honorable retirement and won't settle for struggling. Similarly, young people who are required to pay into Social Security KNOWING that the benefits they receive will be a fraction of what they pay will not be pleased watching what happens to their parents, friends and neighbors. 

This will wind up in the government's lap. 

I predict major tax increases on people in the 1% class in the very near future with those dollars collected earmarked directly toward retirement causes. There has to be some re-distributon of wealth or The American dollar will cease to exist. 



Unreal. There are risks to being an employee. For the love of God, the law is that you can fire anyone at anytime as long as it's not for an illegal reason. 

Please tell me why there is outrage when an individual gets screwed by a company, but it is "just the risk of business" when a company gets screwed by a company?  Another company screwed me and my partner out of 15k...out of pocket.  The double standard blows my mind. 
 
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Posted: #41
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

 

Sorry, CD, but you are missing the bigger picture.   Companies are not the ones doing the negotiating or making deals with the Employees.   It's those damn Unions !!! 



Seriously are you on drugs?  The unions can ask for the sky, that doesnt mean the company has to say yes.  You need to wake up here and realize who has done the screwing.  Companies agreed to giving workers pensions, so it was there job, to make sure they funded those pensions or like i said dont offer pensions to the workers.  Sorry but companies cant use these workers and then say sorry we didnt fund your pension.  Thats total BS and like i said in my example, which guys like you will always side step.  If a company told you, that you would earn 1000 bucks every week, but every week there was only 400 in your check, am 100 percent sure you would be one very mad person.  Now fast forward that example to workers working their whole lives with the belief that they will have a pension in retirement, only to find out they dont.  I doubt very much you would be happy about this and just let the company off the hook if you were one of the workers.

Like i have said, if a company doesnt want to provide pensions, then tell the worker that before they take the job , not 30 years later.

And please stop using the unsustainable fox news crap line.  If the company was offering pensions, then they should have used those years the workers worked at the company, to figure out how to fund the pension.  What these companies are doing to peoples pensions, is exactly like somebody robbing you on the street with a gun
 
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Posted: #42
Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


But a company can tell my company they won't pay up when they promised to pay us and used us to supply employees to help run their business?

Please tell how my situation is different than Joe Public who is getting stiffed on their pension by a company. 



Your right its wrong.  I dont care what kind of company or public job. If you are promised a wage, benefit, insurance, payment or whatever, then after you perform your job or service you should be paid for that service or job.  This BS of using people and then saying we cant pay you, is total BS and people need to start being locked up, then maybe all these company CEO'S making millions and millions of dollars will stop pissing on the little guy
 
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Posted: #43

Quote Originally Posted by cd329:



Seriously are you on drugs?  The unions can ask for the sky, that doesnt mean the company has to say yes.  You need to wake up here and realize who has done the screwing.  Companies agreed to giving workers pensions, so it was there job, to make sure they funded those pensions or like i said dont offer pensions to the workers.  Sorry but companies cant use these workers and then say sorry we didnt fund your pension.  Thats total BS and like i said in my example, which guys like you will always side step.  If a company told you, that you would earn 1000 bucks every week, but every week there was only 400 in your check, am 100 percent sure you would be one very mad person.  Now fast forward that example to workers working their whole lives with the belief that they will have a pension in retirement, only to find out they dont.  I doubt very much you would be happy about this and just let the company off the hook if you were one of the workers.

Like i have said, if a company doesnt want to provide pensions, then tell the worker that before they take the job , not 30 years later.

And please stop using the unsustainable fox news crap line.  If the company was offering pensions, then they should have used those years the workers worked at the company, to figure out how to fund the pension.  What these companies are doing to peoples pensions, is exactly like somebody robbing you on the street with a gun

..  Negotiations break down, Unions asks workers to go on strike, company agrees to the arm-twisting and gets screwed in process.  How many times have we seen this play out before in our lifetimes!! .  C'mon CD.  Wake the hell up !!!

 Not my fault you don't understand the full picture here pal.  

 

 
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Posted: #44
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

The company didn't have a choice ?? Don't you get it with those Damn Unions and ridiculous compensation packages they "Forced" (i.e. negotiated??) for the companies' employees. The Great Recession only exposed them for what they truly were the Company.  A bad deal for employees, stakeholders, and bondholders ; you can thank O'bama for that last one.

Looking Forward, Go look at the compensation packages (hourly wage + pensions + health benefits) that  NEW  auto employees are offered.  Much more reasonable, and auto companies have been expanding and hiring more employees to increase production (yeah !!)

But, I'm sure you'll agree that Unions will increase their clout in the not-too-distant-future, forcing the Companies to take it up the A$$ again, struggle financially, lay-off works, etc.  and the cycle repeat itself . 

....  If you care so much for the employee (like we all should care for all people equally), you'd get this....

You DEMS are such emotional creatures.  Step back, take a look at what works/doesn't work, and apply Logic.



here we go again.  The unions didnt sign the contract for the company.  The company agreed to the things the unions asked for and they are the ones who signed their names.

So answer my example, which is no different then a pension.  If you worked for a company and they told you your paycheck would be 1000 bucks a week, but only got a 400 paycheck.  Would you keep working there?  You would quit so fast, your head would spin.  Well if all those workers who were told that their retirement would be taken care of with a pension, knew they wouldnt get one, they also would have quit the company.

So really take your tongue off the corporations fools and start realizing who the bad guys really are.  Keep blaming the worker, whos gonna take that money they earn and pump it right back into the economy
 
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Posted: #45
Quote Originally Posted by soup-can:

detroit auto makers went bankrupt because of a bad product, not because of the pensions they promised.  you cant sell a half behind product for the same price of a foreign product that is made better and lasts just as long.  pontiac gave up.  ford sucks in my opinion.  i always was an american car buyer until about 5 years ago.  i now have german made and japanese made cars.  for the price you cant beat them.  before anyone bashes me for not buying american, some foreign cars are made in the usa

 

i work for a worlwide company. i am union. i pay my dues every month.  i make a good living because of the union contract, and every 5 years a new contract comes along, its gets a little worse everytime.  but without the union, the greedy company that i slave at that only cares about its stockholders and driving the price up higher every Q, they would pay us min wages with crap health ins.

i know how much the fat cats in the union are making, but im also making probably double what i would if it was a non- union job.  what some dont know is 401k plans started out for exec's and top management to hide their money and avoid high tax brackets.  then some smart college grad told them their 401k plans will do away with pensions if offered to the general work force.  50 years ago there were so many different unions,  now only a handful but the ones left are strong. 

 

how many companys took gov't bailouts, and paid their ceo's millions in bonus.  its not the greed of the unions that destroy good paying blue collar jobs.  its corporate greed that is the evil.  they want all the pie not just a piece

That's just simply not true.  What made the U.S. auto companies under more pressure was this thing called the UAW.

 

 

 
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Posted: #46
Like most things people do the view was short sighted. I've been in these meetings and it's frustrating. When they were organizing the pension there was definitely an accountant in the room  who said something like we are going to run out of money on this in x years. The organizers and executives definitely told the accountant to shut up and not to worry about it as it's the now that matters and they'll figure out the future later AKA never (then in x years they'll say we'll the accountant should have said something :)). It sucks for the guys who retired in x years but no one cared back then they just cared that the deal got done. It'd be nice if companies looked road and kept promises but they don't; it'd also be nice if people looked down the road. The writing was on the wall for ages regarding pension plans, they're unsustainable with people living longer, just like it is with SS. 
I've said it before if you're planning on someone else taking care of you I hope it's your family cause if you're relying on a company or the government you're playing with fire.

 
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Posted: #47
Quote Originally Posted by mightiestmojo:

Like most things people do the view was short sighted. I've been in these meetings and it's frustrating. When they were organizing the pension there was definitely an accountant in the room  who said something like we are going to run out of money on this in x years. The organizers and executives definitely told the accountant to shut up and not to worry about it as it's the now that matters and they'll figure out the future later AKA never (then in x years they'll say we'll the accountant should have said something :)). It sucks for the guys who retired in x years but no one cared back then they just cared that the deal got done. It'd be nice if companies looked road and kept promises but they don't; it'd also be nice if people looked down the road. The writing was on the wall for ages regarding pension plans, they're unsustainable with people living longer, just like it is with SS. 
I've said it before if you're planning on someone else taking care of you I hope it's your family cause if you're relying on a company or the government you're playing with fire.




Your social security remark couldnt be further from true.  Social security was a good designed system, that was ruined by the politicians raiding the money and using it on their own pet projects, If the politicians never touched SS, right now there would be enough money in the system to not run out for another 100 years and if they tweaked the system, who knows how long it could have went for.

As far as pensions go, if the company promises to pay an employee money, it doesnt matter if that money is coming in the form of a weekly paycheck or a pension check years later.  Company shouldnt tell any employee we will pay you such and such for your work, if they have no intention of paying that debt.

So sick of hearing this slick fox news favorite line UNSUSTAINABLE ,because guys like you and rush eat that crap up. 
Sorry but paying employees what they agreed upon getting for performing their jobs, is very much sustainable, had the corporations actually planned the pensions out "{which is really no different then putting money into 401k's}   but the corporations didnt invest the money for the employees pensions and instead just kept an used the money for themselves, buying houses all around the world, airplanes, yahcts, cars etc  etc.  What these corporations did to their employees who they promised to pay, is criminal.  These corporations got to use all these employees backs and not have to worry about ever paying them.  Pretty nice to run a corporation with free labor.


So until guys like you and rush, understand getting cheated out of your pension, is no different then getting money cheated out of your weekly paycheck, you 2 will never understand it and will instead keep blaming the working man.
 
 
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Posted: #48
dont feel sorry for the big auto manufacturers they all got bailouts from the union taxpayers and its not an entitlement if you pay into it
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