If you DONT HEDGE you can either win 1000 or lose 100. When you average out +1000 and -100 you don't get +500. You get +450. When you DO HEDGE you will win 424 if you do it right. So yes, you are still paying a vig to hedge but not as much as you suggested. Its $26 for a $100 parlay instead of $76 for a $100 parlay like you had said.
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MUST READ!!!!!!
Vanzack you numbers are OFF.
If you DONT HEDGE you can either win 1000 or lose 100. When you average out +1000 and -100 you don't get +500. You get +450. When you DO HEDGE you will win 424 if you do it right. So yes, you are still paying a vig to hedge but not as much as you suggested. Its $26 for a $100 parlay instead of $76 for a $100 parlay like you had said.
hutch - i get it...i know in theory i'm wrong but the part i cannot get past is that if i am ever in this spot (which is rare), if i hedge, i put money in my pocket...
if i do not hedge, then i am taking more risk and the payout is unknown
i understand value in baseball and i know this correlates to this entire discussion however throwing away guaranteed money for expected value which is pure theory...an unknown quantity...and could suddenly have an 0-8 streak against me is not something i can live with
regardless if ive assumed the risk...guaranteed money is guaranteed money since expected value is UNKNOWN. it is just as possible for a baseball team to lose 10 straight as it is for a football team to lose 10 straight ATS. its both highly unlikely but it can happen
guys, i get it...i dont think anyone will ever convince me not to take a profit if one is available instead of gambling on the probability of a game coming in. i am not a mathematician. i understand probaility and value to some extent but am no expert
-in the Balt Cincy game the other night...i had got a bunch of Balt +2.5 +238 and +194 in game betting....i thought Balt would win and had the Balt money line pregame...yet i left an offer out there to sell it all back on Cincy -120 which got filled for me near the end of the 2nd quarter. I got + money on both sides...so regardless of the outcome, I won.
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hutch - i get it...i know in theory i'm wrong but the part i cannot get past is that if i am ever in this spot (which is rare), if i hedge, i put money in my pocket...
if i do not hedge, then i am taking more risk and the payout is unknown
i understand value in baseball and i know this correlates to this entire discussion however throwing away guaranteed money for expected value which is pure theory...an unknown quantity...and could suddenly have an 0-8 streak against me is not something i can live with
regardless if ive assumed the risk...guaranteed money is guaranteed money since expected value is UNKNOWN. it is just as possible for a baseball team to lose 10 straight as it is for a football team to lose 10 straight ATS. its both highly unlikely but it can happen
guys, i get it...i dont think anyone will ever convince me not to take a profit if one is available instead of gambling on the probability of a game coming in. i am not a mathematician. i understand probaility and value to some extent but am no expert
-in the Balt Cincy game the other night...i had got a bunch of Balt +2.5 +238 and +194 in game betting....i thought Balt would win and had the Balt money line pregame...yet i left an offer out there to sell it all back on Cincy -120 which got filled for me near the end of the 2nd quarter. I got + money on both sides...so regardless of the outcome, I won.
What he says is exactly what I have said numerous times in this thread. Yes, I am taking back less money but the bottom line is, I am taking back money. I like the known vs. the unknown. I don't want to have to lose 5 straight parlays and hope that the 6th one finally hits. To each his own.
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I am just going to hire KOAJ as my spokesperson.
What he says is exactly what I have said numerous times in this thread. Yes, I am taking back less money but the bottom line is, I am taking back money. I like the known vs. the unknown. I don't want to have to lose 5 straight parlays and hope that the 6th one finally hits. To each his own.
I just don't understand why this is hard for you guys to get. One of the things Vanzack is saying, and then proving using mathematics, is that you make more money by just betting a 3 team parlay, than you do betting a 4 teamer and then hedging the 4th game.
There's nothing dumb about locking in a profit, but to lessen your profits is silly. Isn't it?
Anyway, this is a great thread. Lots of viewpoints and any thread with Vanzack and math is usually a learning experience, which is good.
Good job guys.
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I just don't understand why this is hard for you guys to get. One of the things Vanzack is saying, and then proving using mathematics, is that you make more money by just betting a 3 team parlay, than you do betting a 4 teamer and then hedging the 4th game.
There's nothing dumb about locking in a profit, but to lessen your profits is silly. Isn't it?
Anyway, this is a great thread. Lots of viewpoints and any thread with Vanzack and math is usually a learning experience, which is good.
Vanzack, one of my local bookies offers A/R (Action/Reverse) for games. How do you feel about those? Probability-wise, I'm pretty sure it's a bad deal to take games at different start times, but I think it'd okay to do if they are overlapping games. Do you know the math involved with A/Rs?
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Vanzack, one of my local bookies offers A/R (Action/Reverse) for games. How do you feel about those? Probability-wise, I'm pretty sure it's a bad deal to take games at different start times, but I think it'd okay to do if they are overlapping games. Do you know the math involved with A/Rs?
You both have said that you want "guaranteed" money even if that means you are willing to take less than you deserve.
My question is how much are less are you willing to take?
I brought up earlier a craps example, but let me give a football example. You have a 110 dollar bet on the colts PK vs the pats. Its halftime and the colts are up 28-0. You are looking good to win your 100 profit on your bet.
Your bookie calls you and offers you a buyout of your bet. Guaranteed money right? He offers you 25 bucks. Its guaranteed money, but far less than your EV, but as devilfan says "EV cant buy you a hotdog and I want to win today".
My question to you guys is how do you measure what that guarantee is worth to you? Would you take 5 bucks guaranteed money for that bet? How about 98 bucks?
I have yet to understand from either of you that on the parlay question that you use any kind of measure to see just how much you are actually giving away to get the guarantee. My example above is exactly the same as the parlay, but I have a good idea that you are not using any measure to see just how much money you are losing by taking the "guarantee", and Im surprised that neither of you even care to know.
Opinions?
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Koaj / Devilfan -
You both have said that you want "guaranteed" money even if that means you are willing to take less than you deserve.
My question is how much are less are you willing to take?
I brought up earlier a craps example, but let me give a football example. You have a 110 dollar bet on the colts PK vs the pats. Its halftime and the colts are up 28-0. You are looking good to win your 100 profit on your bet.
Your bookie calls you and offers you a buyout of your bet. Guaranteed money right? He offers you 25 bucks. Its guaranteed money, but far less than your EV, but as devilfan says "EV cant buy you a hotdog and I want to win today".
My question to you guys is how do you measure what that guarantee is worth to you? Would you take 5 bucks guaranteed money for that bet? How about 98 bucks?
I have yet to understand from either of you that on the parlay question that you use any kind of measure to see just how much you are actually giving away to get the guarantee. My example above is exactly the same as the parlay, but I have a good idea that you are not using any measure to see just how much money you are losing by taking the "guarantee", and Im surprised that neither of you even care to know.
Thats a bad example Van...If I were up 28-0 with a game in progress, why would i take anything less than my 100 in this case? Yes , here i would let it ride. But if i had a 5 team parlay with the last leg to go, i would still hedge on that last team..If it hits i make 1400 instead of 1500...If it doesn't hit i make 50 instead of Zero on a 100 bet on the last team.OK..we admit it cost us 100 on the parlay....but still would take that chance.Your taking a chance on no return at all...
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Thats a bad example Van...If I were up 28-0 with a game in progress, why would i take anything less than my 100 in this case? Yes , here i would let it ride. But if i had a 5 team parlay with the last leg to go, i would still hedge on that last team..If it hits i make 1400 instead of 1500...If it doesn't hit i make 50 instead of Zero on a 100 bet on the last team.OK..we admit it cost us 100 on the parlay....but still would take that chance.Your taking a chance on no return at all...
Thats a bad example Van...If I were up 28-0 with a game in progress, why would i take anything less than my 100 in this case? Yes , here i would let it ride. But if i had a 5 team parlay with the last leg to go, i would still hedge on that last team..If it hits i make 1400 instead of 1500...If it doesn't hit i make 50 instead of Zero on a 100 bet on the last team.OK..we admit it cost us 100 on the parlay....but still would take that chance.Your taking a chance on no return at all...
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Thats a bad example Van...If I were up 28-0 with a game in progress, why would i take anything less than my 100 in this case? Yes , here i would let it ride. But if i had a 5 team parlay with the last leg to go, i would still hedge on that last team..If it hits i make 1400 instead of 1500...If it doesn't hit i make 50 instead of Zero on a 100 bet on the last team.OK..we admit it cost us 100 on the parlay....but still would take that chance.Your taking a chance on no return at all...
What bettors should be concentrating on is to prevent a hedging situation. If you like 4 games and 1 happens to be the Monday night game....don't include it. Go with the other 3 . If your 3 teamer wins revisit a possible play on Monday night game with your profit.
SIMPLE.
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What bettors should be concentrating on is to prevent a hedging situation. If you like 4 games and 1 happens to be the Monday night game....don't include it. Go with the other 3 . If your 3 teamer wins revisit a possible play on Monday night game with your profit.
I would have to take sick leave from work to read the entire thread, but the bottom line is Vanzack is correct. Take a 3-team parlay paying 6-1. You are laying -110 on each leg. So for example, Buffalo -4. If you bet the opponent +4 you will win one lose one but you pay double juice. Why would you want to bet 2 games -110 and go 1-1. You lose! May not seem like a lot, but it adds up. This is basic when it comes to parlays, EXCEPT to the extent that maybe the line has moved a lot, or your opinion on the game truly has changed. If you really like the other side at the price, then fine. That just means that you made a lousy original bet.
Hedging futures and teasers are a different animal altogether. Nothing at all wrong with adding a final teaser leg in (NFL) when it fits basic strategy and then betting the other side regular line if you like that bet.
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I would have to take sick leave from work to read the entire thread, but the bottom line is Vanzack is correct. Take a 3-team parlay paying 6-1. You are laying -110 on each leg. So for example, Buffalo -4. If you bet the opponent +4 you will win one lose one but you pay double juice. Why would you want to bet 2 games -110 and go 1-1. You lose! May not seem like a lot, but it adds up. This is basic when it comes to parlays, EXCEPT to the extent that maybe the line has moved a lot, or your opinion on the game truly has changed. If you really like the other side at the price, then fine. That just means that you made a lousy original bet.
Hedging futures and teasers are a different animal altogether. Nothing at all wrong with adding a final teaser leg in (NFL) when it fits basic strategy and then betting the other side regular line if you like that bet.
You both have said that you want "guaranteed" money even if that means you are willing to take less than you deserve.
My question is how much are less are you willing to take?
I brought up earlier a craps example, but let me give a football example. You have a 110 dollar bet on the colts PK vs the pats. Its halftime and the colts are up 28-0. You are looking good to win your 100 profit on your bet.
Your bookie calls you and offers you a buyout of your bet. Guaranteed money right? He offers you 25 bucks. Its guaranteed money, but far less than your EV, but as devilfan says "EV cant buy you a hotdog and I want to win today".
My question to you guys is how do you measure what that guarantee is worth to you? Would you take 5 bucks guaranteed money for that bet? How about 98 bucks?
I have yet to understand from either of you that on the parlay question that you use any kind of measure to see just how much you are actually giving away to get the guarantee. My example above is exactly the same as the parlay, but I have a good idea that you are not using any measure to see just how much money you are losing by taking the "guarantee", and Im surprised that neither of you even care to know.
Opinions?
trying to answer the bolds:
-i have no floor or ceiling...it depends on my feel on the last leg of the parlay
-re the Indy 28-0 halftime lead as a PK game...i wouldnt hedge that back. now if they are up 14-7 at the half with NE getting the ball and someone offers to buy my Indy ticket for $50 and split my wager then I probably do it. I would get $50 in my pocket and have a $50 wager on the Colts up by 7 as a PK
-of course i care to know or learn what i dont know but this is such a rare occurrance to me its almost irrelevant.
measuring risk is measuring the unknown...i like the known
if in the last 5 years the Oakland A's have played 60% unders, then they hit 6 overs in a row...what is the probability of their next 10 games going under? is it 60%? is it more? is it less?
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Koaj / Devilfan -
You both have said that you want "guaranteed" money even if that means you are willing to take less than you deserve.
My question is how much are less are you willing to take?
I brought up earlier a craps example, but let me give a football example. You have a 110 dollar bet on the colts PK vs the pats. Its halftime and the colts are up 28-0. You are looking good to win your 100 profit on your bet.
Your bookie calls you and offers you a buyout of your bet. Guaranteed money right? He offers you 25 bucks. Its guaranteed money, but far less than your EV, but as devilfan says "EV cant buy you a hotdog and I want to win today".
My question to you guys is how do you measure what that guarantee is worth to you? Would you take 5 bucks guaranteed money for that bet? How about 98 bucks?
I have yet to understand from either of you that on the parlay question that you use any kind of measure to see just how much you are actually giving away to get the guarantee. My example above is exactly the same as the parlay, but I have a good idea that you are not using any measure to see just how much money you are losing by taking the "guarantee", and Im surprised that neither of you even care to know.
Opinions?
trying to answer the bolds:
-i have no floor or ceiling...it depends on my feel on the last leg of the parlay
-re the Indy 28-0 halftime lead as a PK game...i wouldnt hedge that back. now if they are up 14-7 at the half with NE getting the ball and someone offers to buy my Indy ticket for $50 and split my wager then I probably do it. I would get $50 in my pocket and have a $50 wager on the Colts up by 7 as a PK
-of course i care to know or learn what i dont know but this is such a rare occurrance to me its almost irrelevant.
measuring risk is measuring the unknown...i like the known
if in the last 5 years the Oakland A's have played 60% unders, then they hit 6 overs in a row...what is the probability of their next 10 games going under? is it 60%? is it more? is it less?
measuring risk is measuring the unknown...i like the known
I should clarify - the unknown i refer to is the final leg of a 4 team parlay paying 10-1 or whatever its paying
vanzack - hope you dont think i'm retarded after all this...everyone has a different way of thinking. i know your math is correct as are your theories of probability and expected value however...all of this is unknown
in reality, i have cash in my pocket while others who do not hedge are hoping their other game comes in
its the known vs the unknown and accounting for such....i think thats what this whole thread is about
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measuring risk is measuring the unknown...i like the known
I should clarify - the unknown i refer to is the final leg of a 4 team parlay paying 10-1 or whatever its paying
vanzack - hope you dont think i'm retarded after all this...everyone has a different way of thinking. i know your math is correct as are your theories of probability and expected value however...all of this is unknown
in reality, i have cash in my pocket while others who do not hedge are hoping their other game comes in
its the known vs the unknown and accounting for such....i think thats what this whole thread is about
Vanzack--------Oh jesus.. how many times do I need to say this? I answered this twice already. If we are talking about $25 or $50 or a few hundred bucks, I don't hedge. I need to guarantee a good $500 and upwards to the thousands in order to hedge out. A few hundred bucks or less means absolutely nothing to me. It's on a case by case basis, talking real #'s, not pocket change.
Again, I don't go into a parlay with the mindset to hedge out but if the opportunity presents itself (and I know according to you, this in and of itself, is an error) I will seriously consider hedging if the profit is large enough, in MY eyes.
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Vanzack--------Oh jesus.. how many times do I need to say this? I answered this twice already. If we are talking about $25 or $50 or a few hundred bucks, I don't hedge. I need to guarantee a good $500 and upwards to the thousands in order to hedge out. A few hundred bucks or less means absolutely nothing to me. It's on a case by case basis, talking real #'s, not pocket change.
Again, I don't go into a parlay with the mindset to hedge out but if the opportunity presents itself (and I know according to you, this in and of itself, is an error) I will seriously consider hedging if the profit is large enough, in MY eyes.
Understood and agree Open-Cison...But we're talking about a 4 teamer where the 1st 3 teams have won...Would you hedge the last team to guarantee a profit no matter the outcome?
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Understood and agree Open-Cison...But we're talking about a 4 teamer where the 1st 3 teams have won...Would you hedge the last team to guarantee a profit no matter the outcome?
There is no reason you should be in a position to HEDGE(anymore). I don't think you have read this in its entirety. DON'T get in a hedge situation.Period.
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Devilfan are you reading.....
There is no reason you should be in a position to HEDGE(anymore). I don't think you have read this in its entirety. DON'T get in a hedge situation.Period.
Vanzack--------Oh jesus.. how many times do I need to say this? I answered this twice already. If we are talking about $25 or $50 or a few hundred bucks, I don't hedge. I need to guarantee a good $500 and upwards to the thousands in order to hedge out. A few hundred bucks or less means absolutely nothing to me. It's on a case by case basis, talking real #'s, not pocket change.
Again, I don't go into a parlay with the mindset to hedge out but if the opportunity presents itself (and I know according to you, this in and of itself, is an error) I will seriously consider hedging if the profit is large enough, in MY eyes.
So you have proven Van's point. Van is talking about theory and backing it up with mathematically indisputable evidence.
If you read Van's first couple posts, he states that in your case, the utility has changed. In theory, all things being equal, Van is correct 100%. In the scenario of large dollars (as you perceive them) that you are presenting, that then cancels the all things being equal assumption just like a line shift or an injury would/could. You are now speaking of the utility of a large sum of money as opposed to the flippancy you would feel towards a smaller sum of money.
You are proving Van's point.
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Quote Originally Posted by DevilFan:
Vanzack--------Oh jesus.. how many times do I need to say this? I answered this twice already. If we are talking about $25 or $50 or a few hundred bucks, I don't hedge. I need to guarantee a good $500 and upwards to the thousands in order to hedge out. A few hundred bucks or less means absolutely nothing to me. It's on a case by case basis, talking real #'s, not pocket change.
Again, I don't go into a parlay with the mindset to hedge out but if the opportunity presents itself (and I know according to you, this in and of itself, is an error) I will seriously consider hedging if the profit is large enough, in MY eyes.
So you have proven Van's point. Van is talking about theory and backing it up with mathematically indisputable evidence.
If you read Van's first couple posts, he states that in your case, the utility has changed. In theory, all things being equal, Van is correct 100%. In the scenario of large dollars (as you perceive them) that you are presenting, that then cancels the all things being equal assumption just like a line shift or an injury would/could. You are now speaking of the utility of a large sum of money as opposed to the flippancy you would feel towards a smaller sum of money.
Understood and agree Open-Cison...But we're talking about a 4 teamer where the 1st 3 teams have won...Would you hedge the last team to guarantee a profit no matter the outcome?
There is no set rule. If had a good week , I would let it roll. If I was even or down a bit for the week , I would hedge . Its better than digging in my own pocket to put on a new set a tires that the car needs badly.
Of course with bigger amounts , I would hedge somethng for sure.
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Quote Originally Posted by rackjaw:
Understood and agree Open-Cison...But we're talking about a 4 teamer where the 1st 3 teams have won...Would you hedge the last team to guarantee a profit no matter the outcome?
There is no set rule. If had a good week , I would let it roll. If I was even or down a bit for the week , I would hedge . Its better than digging in my own pocket to put on a new set a tires that the car needs badly.
Of course with bigger amounts , I would hedge somethng for sure.
Boys and girls... don't tell me how to bet... I will bet and do whatever the hell I want... apparently KOAJ understands my theory and practice... for such a terrible, stupid, idiotic gambler, I do pretty well for myself. So respectfully, be quiet. Been doing this for a good 15 years and although I rarely, if ever, play any meaningful parlays with real $ exposed, if I do it and want to guarantee myself $, I am doing it.
OpenCison-- it's falling on deaf ears...I have said exactly what you are saying a few times now... these guys would rather let it roll and lose 5 parlays in a row then and pay out 5 times in a row than lock in guaranteed $ each time... let them continue to do that and enjoy paying out each time.... hopefully for your sake, the 6th parlay hits for you.... you guys seem to think this happens everyday... if i hedge out of more than 3 parlays a year, YES 3 PARLAYS A YEAR, that's a lot. Get my point, although the odds say I will hit 50% of them, there aren't enough to play this % out over the course of a year. As I sit here now, I can't remember the last time or what sport it was, that I hedged out of a parlay.
I want the last 2 days of my life back right about now.
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Boys and girls... don't tell me how to bet... I will bet and do whatever the hell I want... apparently KOAJ understands my theory and practice... for such a terrible, stupid, idiotic gambler, I do pretty well for myself. So respectfully, be quiet. Been doing this for a good 15 years and although I rarely, if ever, play any meaningful parlays with real $ exposed, if I do it and want to guarantee myself $, I am doing it.
OpenCison-- it's falling on deaf ears...I have said exactly what you are saying a few times now... these guys would rather let it roll and lose 5 parlays in a row then and pay out 5 times in a row than lock in guaranteed $ each time... let them continue to do that and enjoy paying out each time.... hopefully for your sake, the 6th parlay hits for you.... you guys seem to think this happens everyday... if i hedge out of more than 3 parlays a year, YES 3 PARLAYS A YEAR, that's a lot. Get my point, although the odds say I will hit 50% of them, there aren't enough to play this % out over the course of a year. As I sit here now, I can't remember the last time or what sport it was, that I hedged out of a parlay.
I want the last 2 days of my life back right about now.
This debate seems to come up every 4 or 6 months. Remember, there are two types of people: Those who understand the math and those who don't. And by "understand" I do not just mean know how it works, but truly understand what it all means. Some people seem to be unwilling or incapable of grasping the original concept you laid out. No point in arguing with them, you will likely never change their minds. After all, guaranteed money is guaranteed money, right?
Anyway, great original post, and examples thereafter.
Have you read Gambling Theory and Other Topics, by Mason Malmuth? It's a good overview of a number of investment/gambling scenarios, including the (sometimes complex) math behind behind them. Seems like a book you'd enjoy.
Good Luck to you, and all those that truly understand the math behind sports investing. It's hard enough to make money in this business--don't make it even harder on yourself.
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Vanzack --
Great post.
This debate seems to come up every 4 or 6 months. Remember, there are two types of people: Those who understand the math and those who don't. And by "understand" I do not just mean know how it works, but truly understand what it all means. Some people seem to be unwilling or incapable of grasping the original concept you laid out. No point in arguing with them, you will likely never change their minds. After all, guaranteed money is guaranteed money, right?
Anyway, great original post, and examples thereafter.
Have you read Gambling Theory and Other Topics, by Mason Malmuth? It's a good overview of a number of investment/gambling scenarios, including the (sometimes complex) math behind behind them. Seems like a book you'd enjoy.
Good Luck to you, and all those that truly understand the math behind sports investing. It's hard enough to make money in this business--don't make it even harder on yourself.
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