Communism at work is a sad thing to witness. China is a shit stain on the world. They don't care about anyone except China.
Wall. I am embarrassed for you that you wrote all that you wrote about how you "THINK" the USA has done as worse as China. I "THOUGHT" more of you.
Well that is unfortunate for you, I am not concerned if you like my viewpoint or agree with it. Its ok for people to disagree and coexist. I am not going to change my position because someone does not like what I say or think.
I stand by what I said, the US is probably the worst with regards to choices made, deaths caused and deception to other countries. Not sure how this would be a massive shock, our noses are in most every single political scenario in the world to some degree.
Wall, you just can't be taken very seriously when you come to such a conclusion. It can't be for a lack
of understanding of world history, because you're too smart for that , so you must just choose to have an anti-American beef for some reason. The U.S. , and most any western democracy, can be viewed as a force for good in world affairs. How can encouraging basic freedoms for people be a bad thing ? On the opposite side, World history is littered w atrocities of dictators that have stripped their people of their basic freedoms.... and worse, ..... their lives. Besides the stuff we talk about everyday w China, how many people are aware of China detaining hundreds of thousands, perhaps million of ethnic muslims.. This is going on today ! China is obviously choosing to be on the Wrong side of history, like all authoritarian regimes.
It's good to see Congress can actually agree on something. Senators are already taking about legislation to sanction Chinese officials and companies that are going after Hong Kong.
Honestly, this is a pretty shocking discussion. The world that you see with the USA as a leading proponent of evil is perplexing. I just don't get it. At all. I'm guessing that Trump will carry much of the blame for your current mindset, but the feelings you are conveying here could not possibly be so deeply rooted after just 3 and a half years. Your tone is shockingly anti-American and that makes me sad for you.
I am not anti-American at all, rather I am not blinded by nationalism and altruistic hogwash. I think we have been behind some seriously horrible things either directly or indirectly for decades.
It is not perplexing or crazy to me at all, I think our choices are made for larger objectives and the means do not matter. How many lives lost for corrupt purposes qualify for what I am suggesting? 1,000? 50,000? 1,000,000?
The lives lost and harm done to citizens of this country and others are in the millions. I call that pretty bad..even right now the decisions not made by our government when they could have are atrocious...and that is for political purposes.
Wake up you two...the CIA and FBI are really really bad organizations, that comes with the larger reaching objectives they are forced to achieve but it does not excuse the means in any way. That is my point.
I would love to hear some of these examples on how the USA is killing up to one million people with covert affairs.
Rush, it sounds like we need to either "wake up" and see the light or start writing conspiracy scripts for Hollywood. That way we can let our imaginations go wild and "THINK" up a ton of horrible, dirty dealings where the USA is the bad guy. My script will have North Korea joining China in a chorus of "We are the World" for the end credits.
The reality is the things China is doing and has done and is continuing to do is ALL IN PLAIN SIGHT. I don't have to imagine or "think" those things are happening because they are real.
I guess you two have been asleep for the last 75 years. I am unsure how you can say that the US has not directly caused the deaths of millions due to political deceptive agendas. How do you think that our government and really our military leadership conned the public into most all our wars and invasions? They lied about the details and intel, that is how.
We had zero reason to go to Iraq either time, none at all..we had no reason to go to Vietnam or Korea, we have no purpose spending 40 years in Afghanistan or most of the middle east. Our reasons for supporting our military programs are politically based, not on any direct or real threat to the US.
This is just the military btw...we are not even discussing our inaction in many ways or our lack of involvement or concern in tons of situations. We pick and choose who we decide to back and who we decide to throw our money and civilian lives at...and all those decisions are politically based.
Unreal you two...and what I mention is really only the fingernail of the total and deception. It is so blatantly obvious I am unsure how intelligent people can ignore the obvious.
Grow up...in fact this is the time it should be brought up. Innocent people have lost lives due to political deception, if no other time to bring this up this is it.
And yes MILLIONS of lives, I find it interesting how you two are keying in on certain words but ignoring others. When we invade for political or corporate reasons and civilians die, those are lives just the same as our servicemen. A life matters the same irregardless of it being a US soldier or a citizen who died for a horrific reason.
I've had many friends go to both Iraq invasions for the wrong reasons and several were harmed for the rest of their lives...all for a disgusting political purpose.
To convince someone you need to be more specific. Can you think of one specific example that you would be able to break down in detail? Or are you just saying this because of a sense of ‘feel’ that you choose to believe?
What exact example would you choose that you think you understand well enough to go into detail about?
It is easier to try to ‘discuss’ it that way — as opposed to just saying there are so many examples. Then you make it seem as if none are ‘good’ and all are ‘bad’. You have picked a very high number when you say ‘millions’ so that should be easy to pick one that you really understand well enough to break down.
I would be interested in this. 
these are your words.... this statement is baseless without examples
All I know is that it's a darn shame that a supposed USA citizen would promote anti-American hearsay and murderous speculation during this special holiday. It is an insult that is beyond redemption.
I honestly don't care to hear any more of your rhetoric about delusional USA espionage actions killing millions of americans, how bad the US stock markets are (you have been wrong on that for decades, which is comical now),or how stupid the FED and Trump are.
Please save yourself and just go away.
I am not sure how you two cannot see my answers and keep saying the same things. I gave the answers already, but to me the real head scratcher is how you ignore it and act as if what I say is some huge mystery and a scandal, that I am anti-American for calling out our government and stating that the political choices and directive made kill innocent people...its a fact, it happens.
So for what the third time I will say it again...there is only one word but I gave many. Iraq, but if you are being really moronic and only consider US citizens as having value for the discussion then throw in Vietnam...both were political decisions which we had no reason being involved in, both were based on lies and both were the direct cause of how many US civilians? How many total lives?
I didnt mention this but locally here there is a STRONG feeling that down winders were a political cover-up, and being from here I believe that. The US did nuclear tests and tried to pass off the deaths and disease as not related to the tests...which was a direct lie. My mother in law was born here and was a down winder, she had to have her reproductive organs removed and was unable to have children so they had to adopt and she was told it was due to nuclear effects but of course that could not be part of DIRECT deception right?
Our military complex and the unnecessary excess alone is sufficient for this discussion but please how can anyone be so blind as to thinking the government does not and has not acted deceptively to its citizens AND more importantly the world.
I am wondering if there is some education lacking from the responses made by the two of you, it seems off to me.
Whether the government has acted "deceptively" to its citizens certainly hasn't numbered in deaths in the 1,000s, 10,000s, or millions to our own people. You can't dispute that , and I keep driving this point home for good reason.. Western Democracies around the world haven't turned the gun on their own people that I can ever remember, or starved them like dictatorships have. So, let's repeat here. Western Democracies around the world are a force for good, because they stand up for people's rights (not only in their own country, but elsewhere). Dictatorships "throughout history and present day" have no problem turning the gun on their own people and starving them to achieve greater power over their own people. Yet, here you are defending China as if their actions throughout history and present day aren't worse than America !!!! C'mon, Wall !!
Russia (Soviet Union), Iraq, Iran, China are ones that immediately come to mind for dictatorships that have turned the gun on their own people .. More recently, we have Syria w/ Bashaar Al Asaad, North Korea w/ the Kim regime, and now ..... you can add China to the list. Yes, them Silencing/killing critics , medical professionals and journalists since the Chinese Virus does not put you on the right side of history, Wall. So, stop defending China when their actions are just egregious.
And if you're really paying attention, you'll note that President Xi of China is patterning himself after Mao . This isn't me just saying this ; publications I read are comparing his "leadership" and consolidation of power in the CCP to harken back to the days of Mao... And How many under Mao were killed due to starvation ?? It's estimated to be in the 10s of millions... Let's hope history never repeats itself , here. This famine is believed to have been the worse in world history !! Yet, here you are, defender of China.
You either don't have a full appreciation of world history, or you simple omit it from this discussion in order to fit your narrative.
And if you want to have a discussion about world affairs, it again feeds off the narrative that the U.S. stands up for world democracy and people's rights... again, in other countries, not just the U.S. You want to talk about Vietnam & Korea ?? What do they both have in common, Wall ? Weren't we fighting against communism and fighting for people's rights in these countries? You can debate all day long IF we should have ever gotten involved in these affairs, and cry about all the lives and innocent people that may have died....The answer as to WHY we got involved in these wars is the point I just made.. Fight for people's rights and work to arrest the spread of communism. So, were these wars fought w/ good intentions by the U.S. and its allies, or were they EVIL ??
This is where we cross paths and will not agree. I do not think these wars were made to bring democracy to these countries, Vietnam did not bring democracy to the region and we got our butts kicked, same in Korea at the time. Both were civil wars that we picked a side and fought against one vs the other for political reasons only. I think you get mixed up with the media campaign used by the military and our political leaders to justify war. War is rarely made to "bring democracy" in any true sense of the phrase..that is the selling point, the sizzle but that is not what happens. Were we trying to bring democracy to Afghanistan or to Iraq? No...and we wont be for any time past present or future..so why were we there? War is business, war is often times a political rallying point to win votes and reward corporations. Much like how moron Trump is trying to rally the troops by stupidly opening up religious places of worship. It is a political game being played every minute of every day, to me nothing else is happening than political chess.
So how many US lives were lost in Vietnam? Since all that matters in this go nowhere discussion, how many US lives were lost? How many US lives are lost yearly by our allowance of US corps to set pricing for drugs and therapies? How many people die every year being unable to afford scripts that could save their lives? We allow profit to dictate our political decisions and we choose profit over people in a massive majority of decisions being made. How many people have died from suicide directly related to this Corona situation? Could the government and the FED have given support directly to the citizens who lost their jobs and funds and then decided to take their lives?
I do think that much of politics is evil....yes when profits and power are chosen over rights and lives of citizens I call that evil no question. And there are so many things that go on which we have ZERO clue about the realities...decisions made and not made that impact US lives and those in other countries...we never know of these due to the laws surrounding disclosure of political actions. I have not even mentioned the CIA or FBI either...they are the real deceptive killers that nobody ever hears about.
So yes...MILLIONS of lives, not sure how this is a shocker..
[Quote: Originally Posted by undefined]I do not think these wars were made to bring democracy to these countries, Vietnam did not bring democracy to the region and we got our butts kicked, same in Korea at the time. Both were civil wars that we picked a side and fought against one vs the other for political reasons only.?/Quote]
If you were to try to stick to just one -- say this one, Vietnam -- your premise has to be established first. Or, as you say, you get nowhere. So, we can assume your premise is the reason(s) for the war was/were political.
What exactly was/were the political reason(s) and what did we accomplish, or hope to, politically? Standard ladder stuff here is fine. What was the problem/issue/reason? What did we do to resolve it? What was the result? This would be maybe your biggest hope of a start. This could get your tally to 58,000 U.S. troops, if you could make a solid connection here.
I'm back and since this is my thread, I am going to request that people refrain from denouncing the USA with unsubstantiated jargon. If anyone would like to speak out against our great country, which is going through an obviously very difficult time with Covid19, riots, revolt and BLM, please start your own thread. I don't want to see that garbage here in my thread.
Thank you for your cooperation!
Gambleholic63
Starting a thread doesn't make it "your thread".
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