What would you have done

The poker forum has been pretty dead lately, so i figured id tell about this heads up that i played a week or so ago.

 

The game is 5/10 nlhe, i am sitting with about 750, my opponent has about 1850. Yes i am playing reletively short stacked, however i didnt feel like rebuying because things hadnt been going particularly well and my opponent didnt mind either. Anyway, so some background is that i have played heads up with this guy more times than probably any other person ive every played with. We both know how the other one thinks and plays so it makes for a much more tactical heads up.

 

I am on the button with 9d 9h and make it 30 to go

 

My oppent reraises it up to 85, i think for a couple seconds and call.

 

Flop comes out Kh 5h 3c. He bets out 125, i call pretty quickly again.

 

Turn, 8h. He checks, i bet out 200, he sits there for a couple seconds, kind of talks to himself then reraises me all in for 240 more. What would you do?

 

i think i would've folded.  but also, i would've check the turn and try to get a read on the river.  A lot of times when I have position and I get an unfavorable board, I don't like to bet with an OK hand(ex. KK with a flop of A 10 6).  Because if you get chk-raised, you don't feel too good. 

 

But in this situation it's only 240 more and you do have an decent flush draw.

But you are right about the poker forum being dead.

versus a random opponent i wouldve checked the turn also but versus this guy i knew i needed to make my stand on the turn rather than wait and see what comes on the river.

yeah first thing thats an auto check on the turn for me not knowing who this person is....if you have a good read on him maybe you were thinking you could take the pot down right there?

 

he was trying to represent atleast AK with his flop bet.....maybe he had the heart draw....the call on the flop should have either been a fold or a raise to see were you are at....most important stage of a no limit hand is on the flop....

 

heart comes on the turn you really should have autochecked....at this point all you can beat is a bluff....drawing to a weak backdoor flush that might not even be live if he has the ace of hearts.......like i said if you had a read thats different or you had some sort of tell he way bluffing ok......but he has played this hand like AK all the way....

 

...but to answer the question i would fold

 

you should have made your stand on the flop....your hand was very vonurable to many different holdings at that point....if he had the flush draw and you raise the flop your are either pricing him out of the hand or atleast putting him to the test before he got to see that turn card

Who won? You had to call, too much commited already.

you know what i was thinking tournament

 

cash game you have to call....

 

who won the hand? what did he have?

well that deep into the hand, i think you have to call.  your commit i think came when you lead out 200 off his check.  he was seeing where you stood after your quick call of 125.  so you were over half your stack involved in this hand, you cant just fold.  you represented the flush or bet out to get him off the flush draw, but with the third heart on board i think i would've checked behind him since there was a reraise preflop.  from 30 to 85 heads up you have to think he may have AK or KQ at worst JJ.  then again he could've been 33 and flopped a set

 

but like i said, you're 400 into it, another 240 won't hurt you anymore in a 5/10 game, i think you were representing a good flush draw with the quick call, and then it came on the turn.....you only move there since he was smaller stacked was to push all in yourself and put him to the test for all his chips.

 

at best he flopped a set, worst he has the K and thinks your full of shit but maybe have a heart and wants to get you out.

This hand really depends on the read of your opponent.   I would have folded on the flop, or even preflop depending on how tight he is.  But since you stayed in the hand it wasn't a bad play to bet the turn and represent the flush.   At this point you have 2/3's of your stack commited and you're probably up against AK. All you can do here is fold and buyin or call and hope for a miracle river. 

 

I'd probably fold and rebuy, chips saved is chips earned in my book.

Oh wait, I didn't notice you had the 9 of hearts.  I change my decision to call. 

Sorry, havent had access to a computer in the last couple of days. Sorry as well for the mix up, i didnt have a flush draw, that was intended to be a 8 of diamonds on the turn. Anyway, here is my processing through the hand:

 

The reraise preflop really could mean anything because of the way he had been playing that day and so i really didnt give him credit for much of a hand, but therre was no point in reraising because he either folds or goes all in with abetter hand than 99.

 

On the flop, i knew for sure he was going to follow up his bet, he had to really unless he was expecting me to bet out and wanted to chech raise but he really cant do that because this is what will happen: He checks, after the reraise to me, at this point i will figure him for a pp under kings or ace high maybe queen high but i know he probably isnt checking a king to me. However, he could but then he knows that if he has the king then iprobably dont and therefore i am going to check right behind him. Now we are assuming that he checks to me and doesnt have a king, well then when it gets to me, he knows that i could potentially check my king right behind him so then he has no idea where i am at. Or if i bet i could have such a wide range of hands that if he raises then he either wins, say 100 or doubles me up, because i would be the one with the leverage in the hand. As you can see this is an extremely phsycological heads up battle.

 

Anyway, so he bets out and he could really have anything, ranging from aces, to a pair of kings, to a pair of fives, to a high card. I call reletivly quickly because i want him to still have no idea where i sit in the hand, obviously by calling he could put me on a flush draw, probably some sort of pair but still not a very good idea of where im at.

 

Finally, here is the big point in the hand of argument. The turn is a blank, sorry for the typo, and he checks to me. The way he plays, he either has a hand like qq-66 which means he is between top pair and is afraid i just called him with the king, aces and wants to trap, has nothing and is giving up, or has nothing and wants to make a play. Based on my read on him in the hand i bet out because this as well is how i would play a hand like k9, king bad kicker, just calling on the flop then making a strongish bet on the turn when he checks. I knew that if i dont bet here, I really have no idea where he is at going to the river and so i pretty much hand him over the pot. However, like some of you said, i decided not to make my stand on the flop because if i do this, then what if he raises? He has the potential to do a bluff reraise and so by me raising on the flop, i really get nothing. And also i knew that he was really trying to represent aces in the hand and so he probably was going to reraise me if i raised on the flop no matter if he really had aces or not. So anyway, i really wanted this pot on the turn so i made a relitively strong bet and truly believed i was gonna get it there, well little did i know he had other intentions. 

 

I was extremely surprised after he sat there and talked to himself then pushed me allin? This put me in a really rough spot, and the only way im calling is if i think im good. I dont care if i have whatever percent of my chips in the pot, its still $200, 1/5 of a 5/10 buy in and its not worth throwing away making a crying call even if i put him on kings. So i sat there for probably, 30-45 seconds thinking to myself, what could he have, i played the hand back through my mind and i finally thought i had him set on a hand. A8. An ace may be good enough to reraise preflop, he just tried to follow up on the flop and take it, then on the turn be confused at me betting the 8 when he held the 8. With this read set in my mind, i pushed the rest of my chips in and by his reaction, i knew i had made the right call.

 

 He said "wow, what do you have"

 

"9s, what do you have"

 

"just deal it out", this really pissed me off, but it was a home game so what could i do.

 

River comes the jack of fucking clubs, a seemingly harmless card, but no it wasnt, he had qj of hearts, not a bad beat, but definitly a tough beat.

Quit playing poker

 

forums dead because dummies like me havent been playing much

 

ive been working and then last week i played jerkoff 4-8 twice and won about 350 then this week i went back twice and instead of maybe taking my $ from last week and playing a higher limit i go play jerkoff 4-8 twice and give back 275 of the 350 i won last week....good cards losing to schmucks all night

well he had picked the right spot for a re-raise preflop.  what i mean is i wouldn't have with qj suited but he hit a very good draw on the flop.  if the 8d was posted instead of 8h then my answer would've been fold.  99 is an avg hand preflop at best, i still consider them a mid pocket pair so ive learned that im not going to chase out people with hands like KJ,KQ,K10,JQ,J10.... overs, over connected even more so if they are priced in by two other callers to see a flop for a nice pot.  cause you make it 30(good normal raise in 5/10 nl for pocket pair) to go and if any over hits the flop you have to believe your beat.

 

i know it sucks cause you made a spot on read on this guy, and had him beat with just your 9's and got rivered, that sucks but i think you made the mistake in the hand by trying to take it down thus committing yourself to the hand to the river.  he had enough outs to push, but on the flop not on the turn.  how could he even be suprised you called, like i said, you were married to the hand chips wise and you weren't donating.  when i choose to push all-in in a redraw bluff situation you have to be careful that another in the hand isn't so short stacked they'll call with an avg hand and prey for a miracle river card, cause they need to double up and what a better time to do it then when your priced into the pot.

libra- thank you for that worthless comment

 

nj-  , been working a lot lately too, it sucks, try to get some poker in whenver i can

 

Soup-

spoon id love to play at a table with you.  however, i think id fold most hands that you are in  

 

i believe in that "thinking in levels" theory

 

level 1: what do i have

level 2: what does my opponent have

level 3: what does my opponent think i have

level 4: what does my opponent want me to think he has

 

ect, ect

 

you clearly play on about level 7 haha

if you were gonna piss throuh your money by the river with only a medium pair, then why didn't you push in before the flop after the guy reraises, I think it is a fold or all in situation, and I don't think in this situation w/ QJ he can call all in, as it is almost a lock that he is way behind

Are you serious man? Let me get this straight, you say that i should raise to 30, he makes it 85 and i make it 665 more, in a cash game none the less? Is that how you play your 'winning' poker? I cant believe what im reading to be honest, there are very few times that you are in an all in or fold situation in a cash game after one reraise sitting with 75 bbs. PLEASE enlighten me.

 

Also, how should i know he has qj, the reraise can me anything, he couldve just as easily done it with aces. I hope this is a joke.

you have to look into his soul. if you say you knew this guy well, then you should have a book on him. he played the hand like he had AK, and you should be willing to gamble w/ the 9's, and w/ AK only a donkey would call all in for $700.

ok so let me see if i am getting this straight, when you raise and someone reraises, just assume AK and get your money in if you have a pair? Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

you are the one who lost all of your money and now you're a broke dick again. If I have 99 heads up I am likely going all in after this asshole raises, or chucking it, but probably going all in. Then he has to fold. There is a very small chance that he has a higher pocket pair than 99's, but then he would probably slow play them. If you have AA or KK, you want to trap, right. But then that is why I don't go broke like you do chump.

Well dipshit, i know this may come as a crazy concept to you but, that wasnt all of my money, and i know i know, you want to be some sort of all knowing 'vet' of the game but to me you sound like a complete fucking idiot. Do you know how to play a cash game? Do you think im trying to trap him there with 99? wtf are you thinking, that is a horrible play, the onyl hand that calls there is a better one and i have no information on him except that he has shown strength in the hand. The number of times that i get called on one of these plays would by far put me down under in profit than the few times that i take down the 85.

    Im sorry your poker playing ability is limited to making guesses preflop and praying you win a coinflip, but there are in fact players who like to really play poker and make their reads based on action as the hand plays out. Its sad that you sit here and call me a chump but i consistently explain plays and ideas that are far more complexed than anything youve ever thought in your life. You are pathetic.

you played the hand like a chump and you deserved to lose.

I think you all are missing the point of this hand.  Advanced poker is about playing the player and not playing the hand.   If he didn't know the player I'm sure he would have folded the 9's after the re-raise on his flop c-bet. 

 

In my post I mentioned that the answer depends on the player, and that's exactly what this is. 

 

Don't forget this is a HU match too, of course 9's are good most of the time. 

 

spoondiggidy, you played it well, I hate making a good read and call then getting ripped by the river.   But that's poker.