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    All Forums | Politics

    Holder is wrong

    ClubDirt
    Tinklebell
    wallstreetcappers
    14daroad
    SarasotaSlim
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    ClubDirt
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 5:26 PM ET #1

    tell me if i'm wrong that holder is wrong.  holder is talking to the naacp and says all these stand your ground laws need to be reviewed.  i've said there is nothing unique about the stand your ground law/florida self defense law.  it's your standard self defense law that is a very important defense in many criminal cases. 

    here's holder's quote:

    "But we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely," Holder said. "By allowing -- and perhaps encouraging -- violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety." 

    Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/16/holder-wades-deeper-into-zimmerman-battle-calls-for-review-stand-your-ground/#ixzz2ZFHSodoY

    one problem is obvious.  the florida self defense law does not specifically eliminate a duty to retreat when someone "feels threatened".  it specifically eliminates a duty to retreat when a person reasonably believes serious bodily injury or death is imminent and similar force is necessary to prevent it.

    getting past holder's clear mischaracterization of the law, how can a person safely retreat is serious bodily injury or death is imminent?

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    To remove first post, remove entire topic.
    tell me if i'm wrong that holder is wrong.  holder is talking to the naacp and says all these stand your ground laws need to be reviewed.  i've said there is nothing unique about the stand your ground law/florida self defense law.  it's your standard self defense law that is a very important defense in many criminal cases. 

    here's holder's quote:

    "But we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely," Holder said. "By allowing -- and perhaps encouraging -- violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety." 

    Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/16/holder-wades-deeper-into-zimmerman-battle-calls-for-review-stand-your-ground/#ixzz2ZFHSodoY

    one problem is obvious.  the florida self defense law does not specifically eliminate a duty to retreat when someone "feels threatened".  it specifically eliminates a duty to retreat when a person reasonably believes serious bodily injury or death is imminent and similar force is necessary to prevent it.

    getting past holder's clear mischaracterization of the law, how can a person safely retreat is serious bodily injury or death is imminent?

     
    Tinklebell
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 5:55 PM ET #2

    Yes, Zimmerman was pinned to the ground and his head was being used as a basketball being pounding against the concrete.

    How could he retreat?

    Zimmerman's jacket opened and exposed the top of his gun lodged in his inside-the-belt holster. Zimmerman saw Martin look down at the gun and say to Zimmerman,"You are going to die Mxxxxx Fxxxxxx", as Martin slipped his hand down to get Zimmerman's gun.

    So is Zimmerman suppose to let Martin get the gun and carry out his threat? 

    The prosecution is suppose to prove guilt of murder not justified by self defense. Name one single thing the prosecution proved in this regard?

    Zero proof.

    No other verdict was just except not guilty.

    I hope blacks learn from this - don't go up and beat other people who are doing you no harm whatsoever.

    . 

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    Yes, Zimmerman was pinned to the ground and his head was being used as a basketball being pounding against the concrete.

    How could he retreat?

    Zimmerman's jacket opened and exposed the top of his gun lodged in his inside-the-belt holster. Zimmerman saw Martin look down at the gun and say to Zimmerman,"You are going to die Mxxxxx Fxxxxxx", as Martin slipped his hand down to get Zimmerman's gun.

    So is Zimmerman suppose to let Martin get the gun and carry out his threat? 

    The prosecution is suppose to prove guilt of murder not justified by self defense. Name one single thing the prosecution proved in this regard?

    Zero proof.

    No other verdict was just except not guilty.

    I hope blacks learn from this - don't go up and beat other people who are doing you no harm whatsoever.

    . 

     
    wallstreetcappers
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:19 PM ET #3

    So blacks need to learn that lesson huh?

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    So blacks need to learn that lesson huh?

     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:31 PM ET #4

    The US Attorney General doesn't know the law

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    The US Attorney General doesn't know the law

     
    SarasotaSlim
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:33 PM ET #5

    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:



    Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/16/holder-wades-deeper-into-zimmerman-battle-calls-for-review-stand-your-ground/#ixzz2ZFHSodoY




    I see where you turn when you want fair and balance reporting ..


    Eric Holder called the shooting death of Trayvon Martin "unnecessary," does that mean he doesn't believe in the jury system and does not accept the jury's verdict, that George Zimmerman, acted in self-defense..?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:



    Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/16/holder-wades-deeper-into-zimmerman-battle-calls-for-review-stand-your-ground/#ixzz2ZFHSodoY




    I see where you turn when you want fair and balance reporting ..


    Eric Holder called the shooting death of Trayvon Martin "unnecessary," does that mean he doesn't believe in the jury system and does not accept the jury's verdict, that George Zimmerman, acted in self-defense..?


     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:33 PM ET #6

    Oh and Holder also shamelessly lied and said that these "Stand Your Ground" laws lead to more shootings.

    Laughable

    NAPLES, FL - In the so-called Gunshine State, home to the most gun permits in the country, firearm violence has fallen to the lowest point on record. 

    As state and national legislators consider gun control laws in the wake of last month's Connecticut school shooting, Florida finds itself in a gun violence depression. The firearm-involved violent crime rate has dropped 33 percent between 2007 and 2011, while the number of issued concealed weapons permits rose nearly 90 percent during that time, state records show. 


    https://www.abc15.com//dpp/news/national/florida-firearm-violence-hits-record-low-concealed-gun-permits-up
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    Oh and Holder also shamelessly lied and said that these "Stand Your Ground" laws lead to more shootings.

    Laughable

    NAPLES, FL - In the so-called Gunshine State, home to the most gun permits in the country, firearm violence has fallen to the lowest point on record. 

    As state and national legislators consider gun control laws in the wake of last month's Connecticut school shooting, Florida finds itself in a gun violence depression. The firearm-involved violent crime rate has dropped 33 percent between 2007 and 2011, while the number of issued concealed weapons permits rose nearly 90 percent during that time, state records show. 


    https://www.abc15.com//dpp/news/national/florida-firearm-violence-hits-record-low-concealed-gun-permits-up
     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:40 PM ET #7

    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

     

    getting past holder's clear mischaracterization of the law, how can a person safely retreat is serious bodily injury or death is imminent?


    Well you can't. And the fact of the matter is the "no duty to retreat" principle is older and more established than the US 14th or 18th Amendments.

    These people are sick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

     

    getting past holder's clear mischaracterization of the law, how can a person safely retreat is serious bodily injury or death is imminent?


    Well you can't. And the fact of the matter is the "no duty to retreat" principle is older and more established than the US 14th or 18th Amendments.

    These people are sick.
     
    Tinklebell
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:41 PM ET #8

    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    So blacks need to learn that lesson huh?

    Yes, too many blacks are trying to be a gangsta..

    For males 30 years old or less, 15 times as many blacks have been to a prison than whites, on a per capita basis  (21.4 % of blacks and 1.4 % of whites).

    More black youth are in prison than in college.

     

     

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

    So blacks need to learn that lesson huh?

    Yes, too many blacks are trying to be a gangsta..

    For males 30 years old or less, 15 times as many blacks have been to a prison than whites, on a per capita basis  (21.4 % of blacks and 1.4 % of whites).

    More black youth are in prison than in college.

     

     

     

     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:48 PM ET #9

    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

     

    "But we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely," Holder said. "By allowing -- and perhaps encouraging -- violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety." 



    Homicide in self-defense, or se defended, upon a sudden affray, is also excusable rather than justifiable, by the English law. This species of self-defense must be distinguished from that just now mentioned, as calculated to hinder the perpetration of a capital crime; which is not only a matter of excuse, but of justification. But the self-defense, which we are now speaking of, is that whereby a man may protect himself from an assault, or the like, in the course of a sudden brawl or quarrel, by killing him who assault him [...] They cannot therefore legally exercise this right of preventive defense, but in sudden and violent cases; when certain and immediate suffering would be the consequence of waiting for the assistance of the law. Wherefore, to excuse homicide by the plea of self-defense, it must appear that the slayer had no other possible means of escaping from his assailant.

     Commentaries on the Laws of England, Sir William Blackstone, 1769

    Either the AG is incredibly ignorant or he's lying to whip up a frenzy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

     

    "But we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely," Holder said. "By allowing -- and perhaps encouraging -- violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety." 



    Homicide in self-defense, or se defended, upon a sudden affray, is also excusable rather than justifiable, by the English law. This species of self-defense must be distinguished from that just now mentioned, as calculated to hinder the perpetration of a capital crime; which is not only a matter of excuse, but of justification. But the self-defense, which we are now speaking of, is that whereby a man may protect himself from an assault, or the like, in the course of a sudden brawl or quarrel, by killing him who assault him [...] They cannot therefore legally exercise this right of preventive defense, but in sudden and violent cases; when certain and immediate suffering would be the consequence of waiting for the assistance of the law. Wherefore, to excuse homicide by the plea of self-defense, it must appear that the slayer had no other possible means of escaping from his assailant.

     Commentaries on the Laws of England, Sir William Blackstone, 1769

    Either the AG is incredibly ignorant or he's lying to whip up a frenzy.

     
    OakleyDoak
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 6:54 PM ET #10

    Zimmerman is Bob Dylan's true surname !
    Hello.
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    Zimmerman is Bob Dylan's true surname !
    Hello.
     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 7:11 PM ET #11

    This isn't America anymore:

    The U.S. Department of Justice on Monday afternoon appealed to civil rights groups and community leaders, nationally and in Sanford, for help investigating whether a federal criminal case might be brought against George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, one advocate said.

    The DOJ has also set up a public email address to take in tips on its civil rights investigation.

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/os-george-zimmerman-doj-investigation,0,4338518.story

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    This isn't America anymore:

    The U.S. Department of Justice on Monday afternoon appealed to civil rights groups and community leaders, nationally and in Sanford, for help investigating whether a federal criminal case might be brought against George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, one advocate said.

    The DOJ has also set up a public email address to take in tips on its civil rights investigation.

    https://www.orlandosentinel.com/os-george-zimmerman-doj-investigation,0,4338518.story

     
    ClubDirt
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 7:14 PM ET #12

    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:



    I see where you turn when you want fair and balance reporting ..


    Eric Holder called the shooting death of Trayvon Martin "unnecessary," does that mean he doesn't believe in the jury system and does not accept the jury's verdict, that George Zimmerman, acted in self-defense..?




    yeah, i saw that.  i figured it was ok to quote holder with it. 

    i think i have a situation that might fit where a person can safely retreat (maybe, not that anyone would want to be wrong) but could use self defense because he was in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.  i'll post it later. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:



    I see where you turn when you want fair and balance reporting ..


    Eric Holder called the shooting death of Trayvon Martin "unnecessary," does that mean he doesn't believe in the jury system and does not accept the jury's verdict, that George Zimmerman, acted in self-defense..?




    yeah, i saw that.  i figured it was ok to quote holder with it. 

    i think i have a situation that might fit where a person can safely retreat (maybe, not that anyone would want to be wrong) but could use self defense because he was in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.  i'll post it later. 
     
    SarasotaSlim
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 7:34 PM ET #13

    You can tell that Holder is on a witch hunt...he has even issued a fatwa on Zimmerman...

    The U.S. Department of Justice on Monday afternoon appealed to civil rights groups and community leaders, nationally and in Sanford, for help investigating whether a federal criminal case might be brought against George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin..

    Obama's DOJ can't find anything they can prove. So they need to find people willing to say stuff...The DOJ has also set up a public email address to take in tips on its civil rights investigation. DOJ officials also said they would open a public email address so people could send in tips on the case.
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    You can tell that Holder is on a witch hunt...he has even issued a fatwa on Zimmerman...

    The U.S. Department of Justice on Monday afternoon appealed to civil rights groups and community leaders, nationally and in Sanford, for help investigating whether a federal criminal case might be brought against George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin..

    Obama's DOJ can't find anything they can prove. So they need to find people willing to say stuff...The DOJ has also set up a public email address to take in tips on its civil rights investigation. DOJ officials also said they would open a public email address so people could send in tips on the case.
     
    ClubDirt
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 10:03 PM ET #14

    this is the best i can come up with


    GZ and TM get into an argument. maybe they are 20 yards away. TM pulls out a knife and walks towards GZ. GZ pulls out a gun. as TM gets close to GZ, arguably, serious bodily injury or death is imminent for GZ. let's assume GZ is faster than TM so holder's quote does apply and GZ could safely retreat. under the florida law, GZ does not have to retreat. he can shoot TM.
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    this is the best i can come up with


    GZ and TM get into an argument. maybe they are 20 yards away. TM pulls out a knife and walks towards GZ. GZ pulls out a gun. as TM gets close to GZ, arguably, serious bodily injury or death is imminent for GZ. let's assume GZ is faster than TM so holder's quote does apply and GZ could safely retreat. under the florida law, GZ does not have to retreat. he can shoot TM.
     
    SarasotaSlim
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 11:21 PM ET #15

    Club,
    Since we are using assumptions here ..assume at the point in time that bodily injury or death is imminent to GZ and  assume he is not faster than TM or is hesitent ..and can't retreat .. he who hesitates, in a self-defense situation, will die..
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    Club,
    Since we are using assumptions here ..assume at the point in time that bodily injury or death is imminent to GZ and  assume he is not faster than TM or is hesitent ..and can't retreat .. he who hesitates, in a self-defense situation, will die..
     
    ClubDirt
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    Posted: Jul. 16, 2013 - 11:32 PM ET #16

    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

    Club,
    Since we are using assumptions here ..assume at the point in time that bodily injury or death is imminent to GZ and  assume he is not faster than TM or is hesitent ..and can't retreat .. he who hesitates, in a self-defense situation, will die..



    in that scenario, GZ clearly has a right to self defense. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

    Club,
    Since we are using assumptions here ..assume at the point in time that bodily injury or death is imminent to GZ and  assume he is not faster than TM or is hesitent ..and can't retreat .. he who hesitates, in a self-defense situation, will die..



    in that scenario, GZ clearly has a right to self defense. 
     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Jul. 17, 2013 - 8:16 AM ET #17

    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

    tell me if i'm wrong that holder is wrong.  holder is talking to the naacp and says all these stand your ground laws need to be reviewed.  i've said there is nothing unique about the stand your ground law/florida self defense law.  it's your standard self defense law that is a very important defense in many criminal cases. 

    here's holder's quote:

    "But we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely," Holder said. "By allowing -- and perhaps encouraging -- violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety." 

    Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/16/holder-wades-deeper-into-zimmerman-battle-calls-for-review-stand-your-ground/#ixzz2ZFHSodoY

    one problem is obvious.  the florida self defense law does not specifically eliminate a duty to retreat when someone "feels threatened".  it specifically eliminates a duty to retreat when a person reasonably believes serious bodily injury or death is imminent and similar force is necessary to prevent it.

    getting past holder's clear mischaracterization of the law, how can a person safely retreat is serious bodily injury or death is imminent?


    Yeah, I just don't get it. When is it the job of the AG to discuss another state's self defense laws?

    And interestingly, FL does not have an uncommon self defense instruction, which doesn't replicate all of, but implicates some of the SYG statues need for retreat and subjective feeling threatened language.

    As is the case in many self-defense claims, the one who is asserting it is often the only one left alive, And any prosecutor will tell you that it is difficult once it is instructed because the burden shifts to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But this is inherent in the self-defense claim and not Holder's fight so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

    tell me if i'm wrong that holder is wrong.  holder is talking to the naacp and says all these stand your ground laws need to be reviewed.  i've said there is nothing unique about the stand your ground law/florida self defense law.  it's your standard self defense law that is a very important defense in many criminal cases. 

    here's holder's quote:

    "But we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age-old requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat, outside their home, if they can do so safely," Holder said. "By allowing -- and perhaps encouraging -- violent situations to escalate in public, such laws undermine public safety." 

    Read more: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/16/holder-wades-deeper-into-zimmerman-battle-calls-for-review-stand-your-ground/#ixzz2ZFHSodoY

    one problem is obvious.  the florida self defense law does not specifically eliminate a duty to retreat when someone "feels threatened".  it specifically eliminates a duty to retreat when a person reasonably believes serious bodily injury or death is imminent and similar force is necessary to prevent it.

    getting past holder's clear mischaracterization of the law, how can a person safely retreat is serious bodily injury or death is imminent?


    Yeah, I just don't get it. When is it the job of the AG to discuss another state's self defense laws?

    And interestingly, FL does not have an uncommon self defense instruction, which doesn't replicate all of, but implicates some of the SYG statues need for retreat and subjective feeling threatened language.

    As is the case in many self-defense claims, the one who is asserting it is often the only one left alive, And any prosecutor will tell you that it is difficult once it is instructed because the burden shifts to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. But this is inherent in the self-defense claim and not Holder's fight so to speak.

     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 17, 2013 - 9:40 AM ET #18

    Law Professor Ann Althouse:

    What nonsense! Let me translate: Holder wants relief from the pressure to prosecute Zimmerman, so he’s shifting to a topic that has nothing to do with Zimmerman but that low-information people think has to do with Zimmerman. (Zimmerman was pinned down before he decided his life was on the line, and he had no route of escape.)

    And, yes, I know Holder is also talking about investigating the Zimmerman matter. But “investigating” is code. As we saw with Benghazi, it means: We’re hoping that if enough time passes, you’ll forget about it.

    This is all so thoroughly lame. But at the same time: It’s a very powerful person speaking dishonestly and threateningly about the exercise of power. What a disgusting combination.

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    Law Professor Ann Althouse:

    What nonsense! Let me translate: Holder wants relief from the pressure to prosecute Zimmerman, so he’s shifting to a topic that has nothing to do with Zimmerman but that low-information people think has to do with Zimmerman. (Zimmerman was pinned down before he decided his life was on the line, and he had no route of escape.)

    And, yes, I know Holder is also talking about investigating the Zimmerman matter. But “investigating” is code. As we saw with Benghazi, it means: We’re hoping that if enough time passes, you’ll forget about it.

    This is all so thoroughly lame. But at the same time: It’s a very powerful person speaking dishonestly and threateningly about the exercise of power. What a disgusting combination.

     
    ClubDirt
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    Posted: Jul. 17, 2013 - 10:47 AM ET #19

    probably right.  i said before i don't see any way the federal government takes this case on.  while holder and obama can speak out of place about this case to appease the angry crowds and for whatever other reason, traditionally, it's just not the federal government's style.  too difficult and too much of a mess. 

    so, holder can criticize the stand your ground laws, mischaracterize them, maybe give the impression they are really looking into zimmerman and wait until it dies down so they can move on to the next thing. 
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    probably right.  i said before i don't see any way the federal government takes this case on.  while holder and obama can speak out of place about this case to appease the angry crowds and for whatever other reason, traditionally, it's just not the federal government's style.  too difficult and too much of a mess. 

    so, holder can criticize the stand your ground laws, mischaracterize them, maybe give the impression they are really looking into zimmerman and wait until it dies down so they can move on to the next thing. 
     
     
    14daroad
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    Posted: Jul. 18, 2013 - 9:58 AM ET #20

    The Congressional Black Caucus is planning to introduce legislation that would repeal state SYG laws.

    How do these people make it to Congress?

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    The Congressional Black Caucus is planning to introduce legislation that would repeal state SYG laws.

    How do these people make it to Congress?

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