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"See No Evil", the Kermit Gosnell Case

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 10:17 AM ET #26

Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

rick... I have said this before many a time...

personally I am anti-abortion... so I am against your example and actually against most abortion scenarios in general...

perhaps my talking about the current nra/2nd amendment talking point that the partisan hacks and lemmings are obsessed with got under your skin...

I know you have a personal view on the 2nd amendment issue that would not waiver or flip-flip regardless of what the fox"news"/talking heads/chain email/blog/propaganda machine prescribes people to crap their pants about...

similarly, no partisan stance on either side will change my personal view on abortion...

but I do not believe that my personal view should be imposed on everyone...

generally I am for more rights and freedoms... and the freedom of choice is not only to have an abortion, but to not have one... If you understand history, eugenics, sterilization and the horror of government dictating how people make such important decisions then you might understand my view on why I want america to have increased freedoms and choices...

China is a good example of how government dictates reproductive choices upon its citizens.... I guess I am more about personal freedoms and choices... others would prefer to have China as long as it pushes their own personal agenda...

I am truly conflicted about abortion. I do not believe the government should have any say over the medical choices of women, I do not believe that the government should outlaw abortion.

I just believe at a point, where a child is viable outside of the womb (24 weeks) abortion at that point becomes cold blooded murder.

The second those children were born induced or not, they should have been protected by every God given natural right that protects every one of us.

I think that all abortion is abhorrent, brutal, and Earth shattering sad. When the child is viable to live outside of the womb I think it is cruel, inhumane, and straight up murder. I think when a child is literally born in a toilet fighting for his life to crawl out of the $hit water to breath, and is met with his struggle not with open caring, helping arms, but a monster ready to sever his spinal cord to snuff out this brand new life, and people shrug it off. We have reached the tipping point as a society.

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is Just; that his justice can not sleep forever. -TJ

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Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

rick... I have said this before many a time...

personally I am anti-abortion... so I am against your example and actually against most abortion scenarios in general...

perhaps my talking about the current nra/2nd amendment talking point that the partisan hacks and lemmings are obsessed with got under your skin...

I know you have a personal view on the 2nd amendment issue that would not waiver or flip-flip regardless of what the fox"news"/talking heads/chain email/blog/propaganda machine prescribes people to crap their pants about...

similarly, no partisan stance on either side will change my personal view on abortion...

but I do not believe that my personal view should be imposed on everyone...

generally I am for more rights and freedoms... and the freedom of choice is not only to have an abortion, but to not have one... If you understand history, eugenics, sterilization and the horror of government dictating how people make such important decisions then you might understand my view on why I want america to have increased freedoms and choices...

China is a good example of how government dictates reproductive choices upon its citizens.... I guess I am more about personal freedoms and choices... others would prefer to have China as long as it pushes their own personal agenda...

I am truly conflicted about abortion. I do not believe the government should have any say over the medical choices of women, I do not believe that the government should outlaw abortion.

I just believe at a point, where a child is viable outside of the womb (24 weeks) abortion at that point becomes cold blooded murder.

The second those children were born induced or not, they should have been protected by every God given natural right that protects every one of us.

I think that all abortion is abhorrent, brutal, and Earth shattering sad. When the child is viable to live outside of the womb I think it is cruel, inhumane, and straight up murder. I think when a child is literally born in a toilet fighting for his life to crawl out of the $hit water to breath, and is met with his struggle not with open caring, helping arms, but a monster ready to sever his spinal cord to snuff out this brand new life, and people shrug it off. We have reached the tipping point as a society.

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is Just; that his justice can not sleep forever. -TJ

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 10:19 AM ET #27

Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:

So a baby delivered into a toilet being muddered while trying to fight for his life to breathe in $hit water is just hunky dory in your opinion?

No.

It is 1st degree murder and should have been tried as such since he killed live babies.

But statements like "it is the wordst crime I have ever heard of" make you look silly.

I could link thousands of absolutely horendous crimes that were not the result of a psychopath abortion doctor.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 11:03 AM ET #28

as pro abortion as i may be, i agree with rick that there should be a cutoff at some point near the end. this is consistent with what i think is a rational way of looking at it that there are obviously competing interests and as the fetus develops, its interest increases. if you are a chick and you're pregnant, make a fuckin decision already.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 11:42 AM ET #29

Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

as pro abortion as i may be, i agree with rick that there should be a cutoff at some point near the end. this is consistent with what i think is a rational way of looking at it that there are obviously competing interests and as the fetus develops, its interest increases. if you are a chick and you're pregnant, make a fuckin decision already.

There is a slipper slope and I have no idea of where the fine line should be drawn.

On one hand, if a baby is born with such severe medical issues that it will never be able to go home, there is no health insurance and no money, we know who ends up paying. I understand the arguments there.

But the flip side of that is it moves down the direction of aborting a baby because it is not perfect.

Find me an answer and I will pay attention.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 11:51 AM ET #30

my comment in post 28 just dealt with women who didn't want the baby for the usual reasons. if it's a serious health issue then i would revert back to my default position which is to keep the government out of it. remember, despite how much rightwingers love and worship it, just about everything the government touches, turns to either garbage or profit for the government.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 12:08 PM ET #31

Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

No.

It is 1st degree murder and should have been tried as such since he killed live babies.

But statements like "it is the wordst crime I have ever heard of" make you look silly.

I could link thousands of absolutely horendous crimes that were not the result of a psychopath abortion doctor.

It is a matter of perception DJ, when you act like you can gauge my perception or perspective then you actually look silly.

This crime is one of the most brutal, unnatural, sad crimes I have ever heard of. There have been only a few times when the horrors of man have brought me to tears in my adult life. One of them was being on the scene in a market where a suicide bomber killed dozens of men women and children. I wept when I saw the children's body parts that were being stacked in a pile in an attempt to discern the age and number of the victims.

The next I can Remember is Newton Conn. You may think because I still defended the 2nd amendment afterword I had a hard heart about the horrendous crime itself, and I can tell you to a man that when I was walking my mail route that day, I saw a group of children getting off of a bus to meet their parents, who had all come to pick them up at the bus stop (not their usual practice), and I completely lost my $hit and had to duck behind a building and cry my eyes out for 20 min, when I came home and saw my newborn daughter I promptly lost my $hit again for another 20-30 min.

Then the most recent was this case. I had heard about it a little through blurbs in the news, but nothing really horrific, something told me that I should look into it. I did, and again, the crimes of this man moved me to tears.

Maybe it is a bit of hyperbole to say that this is the worst crime i have ever heard of, maybe it makes me look silly in your eyes, but this crime is one of the most heinous and evil acts that I have heard of.

The brutality it takes to snuff out the life of a baby is the embodiment of evil.

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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

No.

It is 1st degree murder and should have been tried as such since he killed live babies.

But statements like "it is the wordst crime I have ever heard of" make you look silly.

I could link thousands of absolutely horendous crimes that were not the result of a psychopath abortion doctor.

It is a matter of perception DJ, when you act like you can gauge my perception or perspective then you actually look silly.

This crime is one of the most brutal, unnatural, sad crimes I have ever heard of. There have been only a few times when the horrors of man have brought me to tears in my adult life. One of them was being on the scene in a market where a suicide bomber killed dozens of men women and children. I wept when I saw the children's body parts that were being stacked in a pile in an attempt to discern the age and number of the victims.

The next I can Remember is Newton Conn. You may think because I still defended the 2nd amendment afterword I had a hard heart about the horrendous crime itself, and I can tell you to a man that when I was walking my mail route that day, I saw a group of children getting off of a bus to meet their parents, who had all come to pick them up at the bus stop (not their usual practice), and I completely lost my $hit and had to duck behind a building and cry my eyes out for 20 min, when I came home and saw my newborn daughter I promptly lost my $hit again for another 20-30 min.

Then the most recent was this case. I had heard about it a little through blurbs in the news, but nothing really horrific, something told me that I should look into it. I did, and again, the crimes of this man moved me to tears.

Maybe it is a bit of hyperbole to say that this is the worst crime i have ever heard of, maybe it makes me look silly in your eyes, but this crime is one of the most heinous and evil acts that I have heard of.

The brutality it takes to snuff out the life of a baby is the embodiment of evil.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 12:18 PM ET #32

i guess it's all a matter of perspective. dj is a high profile criminal lawyer. he's seen plenty of abuse and murder cases involving kids. as fucked up as this case is, kids getting seriously abused or killed for no reason by parents who should have had abortions or strangers just isn't that uncommon in this country.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 12:27 PM ET #33

Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

There is a slipper slope and I have no idea of where the fine line should be drawn.

On one hand, if a baby is born with such severe medical issues that it will never be able to go home, there is no health insurance and no money, we know who ends up paying. I understand the arguments there.

But the flip side of that is it moves down the direction of aborting a baby because it is not perfect.

Find me an answer and I will pay attention.

Talk about slippery slope.

Remember when I was saying that socialized medical care would lead to the choice of keeping a baby with down syndrome, or some other chronic ailment out of the hands of the parent and into the hands of government?

Does it seem like that is getting closer or farther away?

I do agree that it is a slippery slope. In recent decades the age of viability for a fetus has dropped from 30ish weeks to 24. Causing our perceptions of abortion to change.

It is kind of interesting that those that promote science over religion and pretend to worship at the altar of reason will not acknowledge that at the very least a fetus is a human being at 24 weeks. Science has proven that with minimal assistance the child can live outside of the womb. The youngest known baby to live outside of the womb was 21 weeks old.

Science is great, it is saving wanted babies that only a decade ago would have been lost, but now it is creating a moral crossroads.

The argument for the longest time has been that a fetus is not a person. It would have to be, otherwise that "person" would have rights.

Well, if a fetus can survive at 21 weeks, even if it is with assistance in an incubator, does the doctor have an obligation to save the baby? Even if it during a botched abortion?

Or are we ok with seeing the living breathing baby, that has a steady heart beat, and can feel pain being discarded like trash?

Slippery slope indeed.

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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

There is a slipper slope and I have no idea of where the fine line should be drawn.

On one hand, if a baby is born with such severe medical issues that it will never be able to go home, there is no health insurance and no money, we know who ends up paying. I understand the arguments there.

But the flip side of that is it moves down the direction of aborting a baby because it is not perfect.

Find me an answer and I will pay attention.

Talk about slippery slope.

Remember when I was saying that socialized medical care would lead to the choice of keeping a baby with down syndrome, or some other chronic ailment out of the hands of the parent and into the hands of government?

Does it seem like that is getting closer or farther away?

I do agree that it is a slippery slope. In recent decades the age of viability for a fetus has dropped from 30ish weeks to 24. Causing our perceptions of abortion to change.

It is kind of interesting that those that promote science over religion and pretend to worship at the altar of reason will not acknowledge that at the very least a fetus is a human being at 24 weeks. Science has proven that with minimal assistance the child can live outside of the womb. The youngest known baby to live outside of the womb was 21 weeks old.

Science is great, it is saving wanted babies that only a decade ago would have been lost, but now it is creating a moral crossroads.

The argument for the longest time has been that a fetus is not a person. It would have to be, otherwise that "person" would have rights.

Well, if a fetus can survive at 21 weeks, even if it is with assistance in an incubator, does the doctor have an obligation to save the baby? Even if it during a botched abortion?

Or are we ok with seeing the living breathing baby, that has a steady heart beat, and can feel pain being discarded like trash?

Slippery slope indeed.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YsKwo1oNymU/TUgiEsRGFwI/AAAAAAAAAMU/glb4hEseKR4/s1600/Hand+2.jpg

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 12:29 PM ET #34

Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

i guess it's all a matter of perspective. dj is a high profile criminal lawyer. he's seen plenty of abuse and murder cases involving kids. as fucked up as this case is, kids getting seriously abused or killed for no reason by parents who should have had abortions or strangers just isn't that uncommon in this country.

Understood. I just can't take violence against children. It has always been my weak point.

My wife runs into it a lot in her line of work as a substance abuse counselor, and before that as a social worker, but every time I hear about someone mistreating children I see red.

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 1:01 PM ET #35

One thing to consider: the US has the most liberal abortion laws in the Western hemisphere

They don't do partial birth abortions in France & the UK, for example.

the United States is currently one of only nine nations that allow abortion after 14 weeks of gestation

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Posted: May. 15, 2013 - 1:02 PM ET #36

Sorry, I should have said "US and Canada"

Canada has very permissive abortion laws.

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Posted: May. 16, 2013 - 3:17 AM ET #37

Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:

I am truly conflicted about abortion. I do not believe the government should have any say over the medical choices of women, I do not believe that the government should outlaw abortion.

I just believe at a point, where a child is viable outside of the womb (24 weeks) abortion at that point becomes cold blooded murder.

The second those children were born induced or not, they should have been protected by every God given natural right that protects every one of us.

I think that all abortion is abhorrent, brutal, and Earth shattering sad. When the child is viable to live outside of the womb I think it is cruel, inhumane, and straight up murder. I think when a child is literally born in a toilet fighting for his life to crawl out of the $hit water to breath, and is met with his struggle not with open caring, helping arms, but a monster ready to sever his spinal cord to snuff out this brand new life, and people shrug it off. We have reached the tipping point as a society.

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is Just; that his justice can not sleep forever. -TJ

but rick look at our choices that is the problem...

just because I am against abortion then I have to side with brainless lemmings like 14 and his prescribed rhetoric....

but then the other side doesnt really represent my personal views either...

personally I think when it comes to my own personal choices my business and the government needs to stay out of it either way... and perhaps a part of that is that I dont get involved in regulating the choices of others... even if I disagree with them on every level...

professionally as you know I have a duty to children, disabled, elderly as a mandatory reporter, same as your wife and same as school teachers... so i also take the welfare of children seriously... you can call it a collectivist approach to children if you want but when you get

I dont think are any easy answers, but I think that there is some merit to the approach of creating conditions where every has the freedom and right to make choices and they actually make good ones... so if we look at conditions in terms of external as well as internal then no one in their right mind would choose to have an abortion nor be in the position to have to consider one

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Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:

I am truly conflicted about abortion. I do not believe the government should have any say over the medical choices of women, I do not believe that the government should outlaw abortion.

I just believe at a point, where a child is viable outside of the womb (24 weeks) abortion at that point becomes cold blooded murder.

The second those children were born induced or not, they should have been protected by every God given natural right that protects every one of us.

I think that all abortion is abhorrent, brutal, and Earth shattering sad. When the child is viable to live outside of the womb I think it is cruel, inhumane, and straight up murder. I think when a child is literally born in a toilet fighting for his life to crawl out of the $hit water to breath, and is met with his struggle not with open caring, helping arms, but a monster ready to sever his spinal cord to snuff out this brand new life, and people shrug it off. We have reached the tipping point as a society.

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is Just; that his justice can not sleep forever. -TJ

but rick look at our choices that is the problem...

just because I am against abortion then I have to side with brainless lemmings like 14 and his prescribed rhetoric....

but then the other side doesnt really represent my personal views either...

personally I think when it comes to my own personal choices my business and the government needs to stay out of it either way... and perhaps a part of that is that I dont get involved in regulating the choices of others... even if I disagree with them on every level...

professionally as you know I have a duty to children, disabled, elderly as a mandatory reporter, same as your wife and same as school teachers... so i also take the welfare of children seriously... you can call it a collectivist approach to children if you want but when you get

I dont think are any easy answers, but I think that there is some merit to the approach of creating conditions where every has the freedom and right to make choices and they actually make good ones... so if we look at conditions in terms of external as well as internal then no one in their right mind would choose to have an abortion nor be in the position to have to consider one

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Posted: May. 16, 2013 - 3:24 AM ET #38

Quote Originally Posted by dl36:

I have to side with brainless lemmings like 14 and his prescribed rhetoric....

1.) combative bashing..

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