Freedom@Stake

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replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US camicom, fair enough. We'll agree to disagree about that. Do I think it's a great time to be opening a sportsbook? Not really. That being said, there's not a lot of competition and if you are willing to take the legal risks, then it might actually be a GREAT time to start a book. Either way, new companies have to start somewhere. They have to advertise or they won't be in business. And it helps that we knew some of the people involved. So we are willing to trust them... for now. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Kudos to Covers...First rate move by them!!! in Gaming Industry - US View Post \| View Thread	camicom	7	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US yakustk, Have you tried requesting info from the new site? View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US Not the same. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US Brian, Thanks for your input. I've been very clear, if not on this post then in others, that we actually DO know people in the organization of Topbet, which was why it was a surprise to us when the TMZ-wannabe site started spreading these rumors. I'm not sure what you are mad about... the fact that Topbet appears to be legit, or the fact that we would dare list a new company on our list. I would just remind you that every business had to start once upon a time. In your world there would be no competition, only established monopolies. If that's the way you want it, fine. You are free to have your opinion. We trust the people involved with Topbet, rumors notwithstanding, and are happy to have them on our list as long as they keep paying players and operating in a responsible manner... ...Or until they stop paying us... that's right, we are a business and I'm not going to apologize for that. Our US-list contains companies that are willing to take US-based players. We don't number them and we don't review or recommend them. If a player wants to sign up with one of these operations, they should do their own homework. But the fact that they are on our site means that we currently DO trust them. I think the fact that we were willing to temporarily take Topbet off the list is proof that we do consider it important for us to trust those companies. If the trust is broken - or they stop paying - they will come off the list. End of story. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US Remind me to "unsticky" this thread in a few hours. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US FYI - It looks like Topbet is now back on the site. As a recap, here's what happened. After the initial uproar, we took them down while we investigated. At the same time, we took down the five or six negative Topbet posts that were littering the forum. Until the situation was proven, it wasn't right to allow Topbet to be slammed like that. Over the last 24 hours, we've waited for any complaints of non-payment. None have showed up. At the same time we've contacted industry sources. We know lots of people, so we were surprised by the story and the possibility that this situation slipped past us. To a man, nobody thought there was any basis to the rumors and the evidence provided is ridiculously flimsy. Everybody agrees it's just a case of an ex-boss bullying some ex-employees that might be trying to move into his market. Now it's time to do what appears to be the right thing... reinstate Topbet. Frankly, I'm sorry that this happened and it's truly unfortunate that we work in an industry where shit like this can happen. That rumor is going to live on the Internet forever, which is exactly why that muckraker keeps doing stuff like this. When it comes around, let's hope karma will be especially bitchy. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Kudos to Covers...First rate move by them!!! in Gaming Industry - US h3llbent, Not sure, other than a general plan to keep similar topics consolidated in one place. The problem was there were suddenly several threads all repeating the same rumors that started on another site, and asking questions based upon those rumors. Anybody clicking on to the forum at that point in time would automatically make an assumption that Topbet was a scam site being operated by crooks using betEd's backend and all supported by Covers. None of which is turning out to be true. This is a totally unfair situation to a site, in this case Topbet, which suddenly finds itself getting slammed in a forum and accused of horrendous misdeeds based upon minimal evidence offered by a site that has been known to make up scandals to embarrass rivals and enemies. This situation caught us by surprise. We have been around this biz for a long time and know a lot of people, and nothing about Topbet had struck us as shady. But we don't know everything. So somebody made a decision to take down those posts while we investigated the situation. You know... innocent until proven guilty. Now we have investigated. We have talked to a number of knowledgeable industry people who might be familiar with Topbet and the people in question. Nobody we have talked to sees any connection or relevance. Everybody seems to agree that it's just a case of a bully trying to smear some former employees. In the meantime, my post at the top of this forum has been up for 24 hours and not one person has posted any stories of non-payment either. So, right now we are fully convinced that Topbet is solid and we are ready to reinstate them. It will probably happen within the next hour or so. However, there were a few people, notably camicon, who were very disturbed by the situation yesterday, and the question remains whether they still believe Topbet is a scam site. So I'm trying to reach out to these people and let them know the reasons for our decision, and to start the dialog now. My hope is that they don't log onto the site, see that Topbet has been reinstated, and then immediately start posting nasty threads without being fully aware of our side of the story. How's that sound? View Post \| View Thread	camicom	7	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Kudos to Covers...First rate move by them!!! in Gaming Industry - US camicom Here's a question for you, since you seem to represent a certain demographic on the site... Right now, we are seeing no reason not to reinstate Topbet. Bottom line, there's no evidence to support the stories posted elsewhere (other than a single phone number from several years ago), we have actually found several reasons to doubt the story, and nobody is coming forward to say they haven't been paid. Do you see any reason why we should not reinstate Topbet? View Post \| View Thread	camicom	7	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US In the meantime, other than one person I saw somewhere who said it took 12 days to get paid (See point #6 above), I'm not seeing any real evidence that Topbet doesn't pay. Seriously, somebody please come up with some real evidence that Topbet is bad. I'm going to give this a few more hours, and then they will be reinstated. Does anybody have a problem with that? camicom, I know you were worried about Topbet, but can you live with them being on the site now? View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 15, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
created a topic Regarding Topbet in Gaming Industry - US Regarding Topbet We will be temporarily taking Topbet off our WhereTo Play list while we investigate the complaints brought up in our forum. Following the investigation, a decision will be made whether they will be re-instated or not. A few points worth noting: 1) Our American "Where To Play" list is just that... a list of places that still take bets from Americans. You will notice that we link directly to those sites (without tracking codes) and don't offer any reviews or recommendations - we don't even number the list. In this day and age, we don't do recommendations anymore and must leave it up to the customers to ensure they have evaluated all operations thoroughly before sending money. 2) When reading or evaluating anything online, remember to consider the source. For instance, there is a site out there trying to somehow link Topbet's organization with Covers - and even betEd. Note that particular site's owner has had an ongoing grudge with Covers for quite a while and seems to focus an inordinately large amount of his attention on us, which is especially odd since he positions himself as a member of the social elite. Why he is so fixated on little ol' Covers is a mystery to us, even a bit flattering. Big hugs out to you, Dude! 3) Also note that some of the members of Topbet's organization are ex-Bodog employees. It's a well-known industry fact that employees don't leave Bodog without having their character publicly assassinated and all future endeavors publicly smeared. Also note that Topbet targets the Asian market, another area of major focus for Bodog - which wasn't mentioned anywhere in the original articles. As always, there is more to the story than you might find at the source of the dirt. 4) We believe in second chances. If every offshore SB operation was disqualified because someone in their organization was once affiliated with a failed operation... there would be no offshore industry whatsoever. Bottom line... if you are still willing to take bets online from Americans, it's probably because you don't have a lot to lose. Which means there is a graveyard full of skeletons in the closet of every offshore sportsbook. This doesn't mean they are dishonest and won't fulfill their obligations; usually it just means they ran into some bad luck with the authorities somewhere along the way. That's why we are willing to offer people second chances. And that's why customers need to do their homework before depositing at any offshore sportsbook. 5) It is our view that the most important responsibility of a sportsbook is paying the customers. We got stung by that with betED - the first time in our history. The result was that we completely changed our advertising model, as you probably have noticed. 6) Also note that times have changed. The reason a lot of sportsbooks left the American market was not just because of the legal implications, but because of the sheer effort needed to keep up with the problems involved in paying American customers. Payment methods get jammed up and shut down all the time. The result is a lot of slooooowwww payments. So, just because it's taking a few extra days for your payment to arrive doesn't necessarily mean that your sportsbook is screwing you, it could mean that it's just taking a while. 7) Taking note of all above, but regarding Topbet specifically... Topbet assured us that the rumors posted on the other site regarding a specific individual were 100% false and the only link is a phone number that once belonged to another site. Well, having been personally attacked by that same site with false rumors, I have little basis to disagree with their statement. We are not going to penalize a site because they were targeted for a smear-campaign by the King of Smear. That would be wrong. That being said, we will investigate stories about non-payment. If Topbet is not paying out customers, they will remain off the list. If it turns out that players ARE getting paid, and this tempest is just a lot of negative hype started by a competitor/ex-boss with a few axes to grind... they'll go back on the list. So... Has anybody actually NOT been paid by Topbet? In our mind, that's all that matters. Let's find out the truth. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	27	September 14, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Beted...any news? in Gaming Industry - US Update: There was another close call on a possible bailout, but it didn't happen for a very reasonable reason. I'm not going to mention names because it still might happen later on. The DOJ, as expected, is stonewalling us, but not in the way I expected. The biggest issue we have on that front that the DOJ doesn't even really want to deal with this issue either. It's looking more and more like we all had it pegged right in the beginning... the only reason betED got nailed was because the other poker indictments were encroaching onto this investigation. Therefore, this case is more of an inconvenience to the DOJ right now. They don't even want to discuss this case or even think about it, because they have their hands full thinking about the poker case. So, it could be a while before we get anything solid because we are on the backburner. View Post \| View Thread	jdamon26	6	August 05, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to A Message to Users Contacting Local Bookies in Gaming Industry - US lovesoccer, Everyone agrees that the US is acting in contradiction to the WTO rulings, but as LVTruck indicates, you have be practical too. Pinny and the rest of the "chickenshit" books that you mention are just companies, not countries. They made a business decision to pull out of the American market because they knew that their government would not stick up for them if and when the Americans came after them. And they were proven right. So there are ideal situations and ideal expectations, but those always get crushed by reality, which is what led us at Covers to start this thread anyway. As Lou said in that original message, we completely understand why people are turning to local bookies - but we need to remind y'all that local bookies are completely illegal and come with risks. That's all. As a company, it's one thing for us to advertise online sportsbooks that are operating legally in their jurisdictions, and it's something else completely for us to be condoning the use of illegal local bookies. That could put us in legal jeopardy. Remember as well that 75% of the people on this site have probably never had to deal with a local bookie before, and has therefore never gambled on credit before either. That's a situation that could prove disastrous for a few people. If somebody on this site hooks up with one of those bookies, and then eventually ends up owing them $50K and wakes up one morning to find all the windows in their car broken... well... we want to be certain that they are not going to turn around and blame us. The world of local bookies is definitely different now than it was 20 years ago, but it sure as hell isn't as safe as the world of online bookmaking either. So while we understand if people feel that American government is forcing them towards local bookies, we want those people to know that there are risks involved and that there are still a few operations out there that are willing to take their action. And we still feel that as long as there are online books out there, they are still safer than the alternative. View Post \| View Thread	Lou	66	July 21, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Why BEDed Targeted? in Gaming Industry - US Not necessarily, Paddy. The way I heard it, betED's referral came from a banker or another processor. Somebody they trusted anyway, and probably had no idea themselves. But that's another question I have. I heard some stories that Linwood was operating for a while beforehand, so it's possible that they found an already operating company (possibly Linwood was already in shit with the DOJ?) and converted them over to a sting. Time to call Dun and Bradstreet. View Post \| View Thread	buxwin	31	June 30, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Why do mods... in Gaming Industry - US Honestly, we are trying to diffuse the Bodog situation as much as possible. Nobody wins as long as that is going on, but as long as new information was being provided and debated, we were OK with the discussion continuing. But it was devolving into personal attacks on everybody involved, so it was time to end it. That's what mods are for, after all. View Post \| View Thread	richsox24	4	June 30, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Let's get a grip people in Gaming Industry - US I think we all agree that this is going no where and I'm going to lock this up. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	203	June 30, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Why BEDed Targeted? in Gaming Industry - US It's actually my belief that this situation has more to do with the poker indictments than has been mentioned anywhere. The elephant in the room regarding the betED indictment is the facts surrounding the amounts of transactions processed. The press releases indicate 33 million in transactions, of which betED accounted for only about 2.5M and Bookmaker's numbers are not specific other than like 90K going in one direction. But there is a third, unindicted company that's mentioned prominently in the indictments, which happens to be an e-wallet company that services the poker industry, and Absolute Poker in particular. So, why is this company, which appears to make up the bulk of the transactions, not indicted? Probably because they don't have the goods on them yet. So we have a 2+ year investigation, that only netted a minor operation in betED and another minor figure from Bookmaker, while the poker wallet company gets off scot-free. This tells me that this investigation was probably wrapped up early, before they had a chance to really attract some beefy perps. Why would they do that? Well, what if the AbsolutePoker investigation was about the blow the cover of this processor, Linwood, that was also processing poker transactions? They would have to wrap things up pretty quickly before word got out that this processor was a sting. So they wrap it up quickly, and they only cases they have are against little old betED and poor AM from Bookmaker. they have to make the best of it. And to be proactive before people start looking closely, they throw that ridiculous photo-op and take $470K for themselves to cover for the fact that they ran a 2 year investigation and probably spent a HUGE amount of resources and got nothing of substance to show for it. That's my theory. View Post \| View Thread	buxwin	31	June 29, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Let's get a grip people in Gaming Industry - US I'd like to go on the record here that, while Paddy makes a pretty compelling argument, I personally don't believe Calvin owned betED. It's a sweet rumor, and while Paddy makes some interesting connections, there is no real proof available, and there is one big flaw, IMO. We all know that Calvin cannot do anything and keep it secret. There's simply no way he would have been able to sit back and watch betED grow and become even moderately successful over the years without jumping up and taking credit for it. Wouldn't happen. As for Becky's threat that... "There is another Covers.com/BetED article coming soon that is even more clear for anyone that is unable to understand the ones currently published. The published articles are pretty clear on who the employees of BetED think the beneficial owners of BetED are, however." Sounds like we are going to have some more anonymous ex-employees talking and making statements they couldn't possibly prove. And Paddy, while I'm happy to have you here entertaining people as well as providing some valuable information, I do wish you would keep it above the waist and maybe provided a bit more provable evidence along with the accusations. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	203	June 28, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Let's get a grip people in Gaming Industry - US OK, getting caught up now. Lot's of posts. Not much has changed. Once again, anybody wondering about Covers' stance regarding us covering player balances can please read posts #26 and #33 of this thread. I think I am being very clear and reasonable in my stance. On other matters, Paddy, please keep references regarding Calvin's sexuality to yourself for now. And I don't think it was anybody from Covers that called you a liar, most likely a shill that took a fake username. Other than that guys, I'm still hoping to get some more information from people this week regarding exact numbers of player accounts and seizures. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	203	June 27, 2011 View Post \| View Thread
replied to Let's get a grip people in Gaming Industry - US Holy crap! I take a day of travel and this thread erupts! Folks! I'm trying to get a cease fire going with Calvin. Not start an outright war. The original point of this thread was to urge some sanity and cooler heads. Let's all take a deep breath. View Post \| View Thread	Freedom@Stake	203	June 27, 2011 View Post \| View Thread

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