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    All Forums | College Basketball

    2012 Kempom System

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    KineProfessor
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 6:16 PM ET #951

    Quote Originally Posted by PitchBlack2011:

    Probably going to ask the so called experts this question also...on Vegas Sports Day, but thought I would ask Kine (are forum expert) also...

    When is the best time to lock in a play...should one...

    1) Jump on the opening line hoping they don't lose value

    2) Wait and hope to get value by line movement and at the same time risk losing value

    Most will say the closing line is more accurate and thus one would expect to have less value...however I have been burned many times (especially this NBA season) by jumping on the opening line only to be burned by injuries to players that aren't announced untill game time...

    Thanks, in advance, for your respone...

    PB.   



    I treat every single sport differently.  The only sports I see an advantage in betting day-to-day right now are cbb hoops, mma and soccer (for various reasons), I also personally bet college football but purely for enjoyment and "sweat" purposes not to necessarily "make money."  If I bet any other sport, its just a "spot" play that I see tons of value in. 

    That being said, its my belief that every sport requires its on philosophy towards various angles such as injuries, line movement, trends etc.  I treat this NBA season exactly like I treat soccer, which is I NEVER lock in a play without knowing who is in the starting lineup and who is available off the bench.  This is a pain to research and might even lose a bit of "line value" but is much more profitable in the long-run as you base your plays, unit size, etc on who will be playing in the game (and those facts make much more of a difference in who covers or not than the .5 or 1 pt of line value you may have missed). 

    In college hoops its my belief that injuries are very overrated.  Many times an injury to a starting player doesn't even influence the line at all, which should tell you something about how valuable this information truly is.  Only injuries I pay attention to are to point guards (especially if they are "used" in 24% of more possessions, i.e. the offense runs through them) or if its an All-Conference performer/leading scorer or if its an injury to a team that has an 8-man rotation or less, all other injuries I ignore for the most part. 

    Also, losing .5 or even 1 or more points of "value" on a line are not all created equal.  If I lose 1 pt of value on an EMU or Citadel line, a game that I expect to slower with fewer possessions that is a much bigger deal than if I lose .5 or 1 pt of value in a Weber St vs Northern Colorado matchup.  I'd say its like a 3:1 ratio for me.  For every .5 pts I would lose off a Citadel line would equal about 1.5 on a Weber st line.  Also, when losing .5 you need to consider is it the difference between a push to a loss or a win to a push.  If I have to take +15 with Davis (which I didn't I grabbed 15.5) and if the game should land exactly on 15, no harm no foul, and its not nearly as big a deal to me as if I missed +15 and now are taking +14.5 and if it lands on 15 I lose the bet outright (again just my personal philosophy). 

    Also, understand that the bigger the spread (especially when you are taking underdogs) the less important a .5 becomes because there is a big significant decrease in late game fouling when a lead is over 2 possession (and even moreso over 3 possessions).  So if Cal Poly gets the ball back up 11 with shot clock turned off you are very likely not going to get another foul (not always but most of the time) and .5 or even 1 point of value doesn't make a big difference.  But if you grab, say a +6.5 instead of a +7.5, that kinds of lead/spread lends itself to late game fouling all the way up to the buzzer in most instances and hence is actually a bigger "loss" in value.  So +15 to +14 does not equal or represent the same loss in value at +7.5 to +6.5 does (and don't even get me started on totals where people lose 4-6 pts of value off an opening line and still bet it - that is craziness).  If you like an over bet it as soon as you can, if its an under (unless is a super high or super low total) you are almost always better served to wait and let the line climb. 

    Lastly, I think you are better off grabbing the lines for favorites early than underdogs in the long run (San Diego being a good example as I'm still hoping the game drops back to -3 tonight), especially if those favorites are between about -2 to -6ish.  Because my situation is unique as I only have 5dimes as my online book, I will RARELY grab a line before the next morning as I value the "reduced juice" much more highly than I do the possible drop in value of .5 points. 

    There is more to it than that, but heading back in to work for a while, hope that gets you thinking about what you want your personal philosophy to be towards these things. 

    I'll be back later if I lock anything else in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PitchBlack2011:

    Probably going to ask the so called experts this question also...on Vegas Sports Day, but thought I would ask Kine (are forum expert) also...

    When is the best time to lock in a play...should one...

    1) Jump on the opening line hoping they don't lose value

    2) Wait and hope to get value by line movement and at the same time risk losing value

    Most will say the closing line is more accurate and thus one would expect to have less value...however I have been burned many times (especially this NBA season) by jumping on the opening line only to be burned by injuries to players that aren't announced untill game time...

    Thanks, in advance, for your respone...

    PB.   



    I treat every single sport differently.  The only sports I see an advantage in betting day-to-day right now are cbb hoops, mma and soccer (for various reasons), I also personally bet college football but purely for enjoyment and "sweat" purposes not to necessarily "make money."  If I bet any other sport, its just a "spot" play that I see tons of value in. 

    That being said, its my belief that every sport requires its on philosophy towards various angles such as injuries, line movement, trends etc.  I treat this NBA season exactly like I treat soccer, which is I NEVER lock in a play without knowing who is in the starting lineup and who is available off the bench.  This is a pain to research and might even lose a bit of "line value" but is much more profitable in the long-run as you base your plays, unit size, etc on who will be playing in the game (and those facts make much more of a difference in who covers or not than the .5 or 1 pt of line value you may have missed). 

    In college hoops its my belief that injuries are very overrated.  Many times an injury to a starting player doesn't even influence the line at all, which should tell you something about how valuable this information truly is.  Only injuries I pay attention to are to point guards (especially if they are "used" in 24% of more possessions, i.e. the offense runs through them) or if its an All-Conference performer/leading scorer or if its an injury to a team that has an 8-man rotation or less, all other injuries I ignore for the most part. 

    Also, losing .5 or even 1 or more points of "value" on a line are not all created equal.  If I lose 1 pt of value on an EMU or Citadel line, a game that I expect to slower with fewer possessions that is a much bigger deal than if I lose .5 or 1 pt of value in a Weber St vs Northern Colorado matchup.  I'd say its like a 3:1 ratio for me.  For every .5 pts I would lose off a Citadel line would equal about 1.5 on a Weber st line.  Also, when losing .5 you need to consider is it the difference between a push to a loss or a win to a push.  If I have to take +15 with Davis (which I didn't I grabbed 15.5) and if the game should land exactly on 15, no harm no foul, and its not nearly as big a deal to me as if I missed +15 and now are taking +14.5 and if it lands on 15 I lose the bet outright (again just my personal philosophy). 

    Also, understand that the bigger the spread (especially when you are taking underdogs) the less important a .5 becomes because there is a big significant decrease in late game fouling when a lead is over 2 possession (and even moreso over 3 possessions).  So if Cal Poly gets the ball back up 11 with shot clock turned off you are very likely not going to get another foul (not always but most of the time) and .5 or even 1 point of value doesn't make a big difference.  But if you grab, say a +6.5 instead of a +7.5, that kinds of lead/spread lends itself to late game fouling all the way up to the buzzer in most instances and hence is actually a bigger "loss" in value.  So +15 to +14 does not equal or represent the same loss in value at +7.5 to +6.5 does (and don't even get me started on totals where people lose 4-6 pts of value off an opening line and still bet it - that is craziness).  If you like an over bet it as soon as you can, if its an under (unless is a super high or super low total) you are almost always better served to wait and let the line climb. 

    Lastly, I think you are better off grabbing the lines for favorites early than underdogs in the long run (San Diego being a good example as I'm still hoping the game drops back to -3 tonight), especially if those favorites are between about -2 to -6ish.  Because my situation is unique as I only have 5dimes as my online book, I will RARELY grab a line before the next morning as I value the "reduced juice" much more highly than I do the possible drop in value of .5 points. 

    There is more to it than that, but heading back in to work for a while, hope that gets you thinking about what you want your personal philosophy to be towards these things. 

    I'll be back later if I lock anything else in.
     
    Philbert
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 7:16 PM ET #952

    Well said!
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    Well said!
     
    Fools_Gold
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 7:21 PM ET #953

    Just got Pacific +16 ....lets do this!
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    Just got Pacific +16 ....lets do this!
     
    JimmyTheLegend
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 8:20 PM ET #954

    UC Davis +16 and some +16.5's, 2 hours before game time.
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    UC Davis +16 and some +16.5's, 2 hours before game time.
     
    JimmyTheLegend
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 8:29 PM ET #955

    UC Davis does has something to play for tonight.

    FYI

    UC Davis has had a miserable year but can still make it into postseason play and be one of the eight teams in the conference tournament with wins in its next two games. The Aggies are just 5-23 overall this season but have played well down the stretch with four of their wins coming in the last six games. The Aggies came through with a huge 78-75 upset over Cal State Fullerton last Saturday and at 3-11 in conference play are a half game up on last place CS- Northridge.

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    UC Davis does has something to play for tonight.

    FYI

    UC Davis has had a miserable year but can still make it into postseason play and be one of the eight teams in the conference tournament with wins in its next two games. The Aggies are just 5-23 overall this season but have played well down the stretch with four of their wins coming in the last six games. The Aggies came through with a huge 78-75 upset over Cal State Fullerton last Saturday and at 3-11 in conference play are a half game up on last place CS- Northridge.

     
    JimmyTheLegend
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 8:37 PM ET #956

    1st meeting 1/28, Cal Poly 67-65, at UC Davis

    Cal Poly leads the all-time series 25-13 and was the winner of the first meeting between these squads this season, pulling out a 67-65 victory on the road at the end of January. UC Davis has not won in San Luis Obispo since 2006.

    A miracle in the making.......maybe

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    1st meeting 1/28, Cal Poly 67-65, at UC Davis

    Cal Poly leads the all-time series 25-13 and was the winner of the first meeting between these squads this season, pulling out a 67-65 victory on the road at the end of January. UC Davis has not won in San Luis Obispo since 2006.

    A miracle in the making.......maybe

     
    Barnstorm
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 9:33 PM ET #957

    Quote Originally Posted by trim88:


    27 years ago, when I first met Howard Schwartz (owner, Gamblers Book Club, Las Vegas), Howard gave me this one sage piece of advice: just pick winners. That's it. Forget the number one way or the other, if one can pick who will win the game everything else will take care of itself. Throughout the years, that advice has served me well and provided me a living.

    There are plenty of teams that win and do not cover that will bury you with that strategy.

    3 out of 10 tonight so far where the winner did not cover.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trim88:


    27 years ago, when I first met Howard Schwartz (owner, Gamblers Book Club, Las Vegas), Howard gave me this one sage piece of advice: just pick winners. That's it. Forget the number one way or the other, if one can pick who will win the game everything else will take care of itself. Throughout the years, that advice has served me well and provided me a living.

    There are plenty of teams that win and do not cover that will bury you with that strategy.

    3 out of 10 tonight so far where the winner did not cover.
     
    KineProfessor
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 9:33 PM ET #958

    Locked In: Davis +15.5
    Utah +17

    Still looking at: USC +8
    Wash St +10
    San Diego -3.5
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    Locked In: Davis +15.5
    Utah +17

    Still looking at: USC +8
    Wash St +10
    San Diego -3.5
     
    Augie7
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 9:35 PM ET #959

    Kine what do your numbers say on the Idaho vs Hawaii game?
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    Kine what do your numbers say on the Idaho vs Hawaii game?
     
    jrhdgolf9
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 10:11 PM ET #960

    Something isn't right with this Pepperdine/SD game. I agree it is not a favorable matchup for the Waves plus they have been beat down pretty handily by this SD team 2X this year yet the line is a low -3.5 for SD. Everything in my mind points to another DD victory for SD yet the line has held steady with 70+% of the public on them. I'm staying away but damn, I really want to take what I think should be a easy victory for SD.
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    Something isn't right with this Pepperdine/SD game. I agree it is not a favorable matchup for the Waves plus they have been beat down pretty handily by this SD team 2X this year yet the line is a low -3.5 for SD. Everything in my mind points to another DD victory for SD yet the line has held steady with 70+% of the public on them. I'm staying away but damn, I really want to take what I think should be a easy victory for SD.
     
    KineProfessor
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 10:26 PM ET #961

    Quote Originally Posted by Augie7:

    Kine what do your numbers say on the Idaho vs Hawaii game?

    Line is right if not a bit of value on Hawaii actually. Don't like what I'm hearing from Idaho coaches talking about what a bad matchup it against Hawaii size etc. really depends on whether or not the rainbows have give up and tuned coach Arnold out. Giving up 95 a game on the road trip certainly points to effort and commitment issues
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augie7:

    Kine what do your numbers say on the Idaho vs Hawaii game?

    Line is right if not a bit of value on Hawaii actually. Don't like what I'm hearing from Idaho coaches talking about what a bad matchup it against Hawaii size etc. really depends on whether or not the rainbows have give up and tuned coach Arnold out. Giving up 95 a game on the road trip certainly points to effort and commitment issues
     
    KineProfessor
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 10:31 PM ET #962

    Quote Originally Posted by jrhdgolf9:

    Something isn't right with this Pepperdine/SD game. I agree it is not a favorable matchup for the Waves plus they have been beat down pretty handily by this SD team 2X this year yet the line is a low -3.5 for SD. Everything in my mind points to another DD victory for SD yet the line has held steady with 70+% of the public on them. I'm staying away but damn, I really want to take what I think should be a easy victory for SD.

    Line seems right to me, it's basically two terrible teams and with a few bounces either game could have came down to the wire, they just went San Diego's the first two. It's amazing how one foul, one bounce, one call can influence the final score of a game. If pepperdine finds their shooting touch it'll be a dogfight, I just like the way San Diego can score the ball and their effort and intensity these last few weeks. The cliche is the hardest thing in basketball to do is beat a team three times in a season (while I don't fully agree with that, there certainly is something to it). I don't love the game but I do expect San Diego to come out on top.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrhdgolf9:

    Something isn't right with this Pepperdine/SD game. I agree it is not a favorable matchup for the Waves plus they have been beat down pretty handily by this SD team 2X this year yet the line is a low -3.5 for SD. Everything in my mind points to another DD victory for SD yet the line has held steady with 70+% of the public on them. I'm staying away but damn, I really want to take what I think should be a easy victory for SD.

    Line seems right to me, it's basically two terrible teams and with a few bounces either game could have came down to the wire, they just went San Diego's the first two. It's amazing how one foul, one bounce, one call can influence the final score of a game. If pepperdine finds their shooting touch it'll be a dogfight, I just like the way San Diego can score the ball and their effort and intensity these last few weeks. The cliche is the hardest thing in basketball to do is beat a team three times in a season (while I don't fully agree with that, there certainly is something to it). I don't love the game but I do expect San Diego to come out on top.
     
    KineProfessor
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 10:59 PM ET #963

    Last two: San Diego -3.5
    Over 143 Nevada/nmsu
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    Last two: San Diego -3.5
    Over 143 Nevada/nmsu
     
    mtndew146
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:06 PM ET #964

    Kine, will you be on citadel U129
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    Kine, will you be on citadel U129
     
    eMDeAy
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:21 PM ET #965

    UCDavis taking a pounding right now

    but i was also on San Diego -3.5, glad to know youre backing them too

           

     

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    UCDavis taking a pounding right now

    but i was also on San Diego -3.5, glad to know youre backing them too

           

     

     
    fadethetouts
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:26 PM ET #966

    Yet another blowout loss.   GL in the future.  I don't have much appetite for betting on garbage teams.  System basically takes the worst teams.   Should be more performance based in the last 5-8 games in my opinion.   Numbers apparently were good in the past so maybe something to it.   
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    Yet another blowout loss.   GL in the future.  I don't have much appetite for betting on garbage teams.  System basically takes the worst teams.   Should be more performance based in the last 5-8 games in my opinion.   Numbers apparently were good in the past so maybe something to it.   
     
    Philbert
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:42 PM ET #967

    Looks to me like a win!  I've had the best of many of the lines for the close games (I work hard at it), so the system plays are >60% for me.

    Good luck all for the next plays on tap.
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    Looks to me like a win!  I've had the best of many of the lines for the close games (I work hard at it), so the system plays are >60% for me.

    Good luck all for the next plays on tap.
     
    TheSchneid
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:42 PM ET #968

    you can't be this dumb? Of course they will be blowouts you moron.

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    you can't be this dumb? Of course they will be blowouts you moron.

     
    ebnozn
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:42 PM ET #969

    Blowout loss my a$$! Wow - sweet late slide under the #! Woohoo!
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    Blowout loss my a$$! Wow - sweet late slide under the #! Woohoo!
     
    BJaRz
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:46 PM ET #970

    Quote Originally Posted by fadethetouts:

    Yet another blowout loss.   GL in the future.  I don't have much appetite for betting on garbage teams.  System basically takes the worst teams.   Should be more performance based in the last 5-8 games in my opinion.   Numbers apparently were good in the past so maybe something to it.   

    Fucking RETARD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fadethetouts:

    Yet another blowout loss.   GL in the future.  I don't have much appetite for betting on garbage teams.  System basically takes the worst teams.   Should be more performance based in the last 5-8 games in my opinion.   Numbers apparently were good in the past so maybe something to it.   

    Fucking RETARD.
     
    Epaminondas
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:47 PM ET #971

    Quote Originally Posted by fadethetouts:

    Yet another blowout loss.   GL in the future.  I don't have much appetite for betting on garbage teams.  System basically takes the worst teams.   Should be more performance based in the last 5-8 games in my opinion.   Numbers apparently were good in the past so maybe something to it.   


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    Quote Originally Posted by fadethetouts:

    Yet another blowout loss.   GL in the future.  I don't have much appetite for betting on garbage teams.  System basically takes the worst teams.   Should be more performance based in the last 5-8 games in my opinion.   Numbers apparently were good in the past so maybe something to it.   


     
    eMDeAy
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:48 PM ET #972

    HAHAHAHAH

    fade the touts looking reaaallllll dumb.

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    HAHAHAHAH

    fade the touts looking reaaallllll dumb.

     
    fadethetouts
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:50 PM ET #973

    Quote Originally Posted by Epaminondas:




    I had to put the reverse curse on it.   It worked somehow.  If you notice, none of my prior posts in this thread were at all negative.   Cal Davis has always been a shady team.   Edward and his guys at RAS seem to always have their pulse in prior years.   Have no idea why they keep fouling when down by 20 except for US TO WIN!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epaminondas:




    I had to put the reverse curse on it.   It worked somehow.  If you notice, none of my prior posts in this thread were at all negative.   Cal Davis has always been a shady team.   Edward and his guys at RAS seem to always have their pulse in prior years.   Have no idea why they keep fouling when down by 20 except for US TO WIN!
     
    theCOBfather
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:51 PM ET #974

    UC Davis 
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    UC Davis 
     
     
    CoverLane
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    Posted: Mar. 1, 2012 - 11:55 PM ET #975

    Nice win Kine,

    San Diego's puttin some hurt on Pepperdine, lets hope they continue.
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    Nice win Kine,

    San Diego's puttin some hurt on Pepperdine, lets hope they continue.
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