1966! Geoff Hurst vs Germany I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
But then again, all about opinions. Everyone think Rooney is world class, I don't!!! GL with Italy though you should be supporting Canada or USA?!!
0
Quote Originally Posted by TorontoJoey:
Italy will OWN England.
4 World Cups.0 World Cups.
1966! Geoff Hurst vs Germany I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
But then again, all about opinions. Everyone think Rooney is world class, I don't!!! GL with Italy though you should be supporting Canada or USA?!!
1966! Geoff Hurst vs Germany I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
But then again, all about opinions. Everyone think Rooney is world class, I don't!!! GL with Italy though you should be supporting Canada or USA?!!
He IS world class and he HAS got experience. How can u deny it. He keeps it SIMPLE, what a good attacker/forward should do.
Fact is, a player like rooney has the capabilities of making things happen coz of his style, a Torres or Villa type of player doesnt, so id pick Rooney over so many forwards.
0
Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
1966! Geoff Hurst vs Germany I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
But then again, all about opinions. Everyone think Rooney is world class, I don't!!! GL with Italy though you should be supporting Canada or USA?!!
He IS world class and he HAS got experience. How can u deny it. He keeps it SIMPLE, what a good attacker/forward should do.
Fact is, a player like rooney has the capabilities of making things happen coz of his style, a Torres or Villa type of player doesnt, so id pick Rooney over so many forwards.
I've never understood the perception that England has world class players. World Class is becoming overused. I think we're getting our definitions of "world class" mixed up. I reserve that term for the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Baresi, Matthaus, Keane and in particular Thierry Henry who was incredibly explosive and prolific for a good few years.
We've had good players but if the World Cup was won by world class players alone, the likes of Portugal and Argentina would be dominant in previous two World Cups. It's just a completely bizarre way the English view International football - endless and useless chatter
about individuals here, this player there, that guy up front...
When I say the Brazilians, Germans and Spaniards are ahead it is because they are! All they talk about abroad is philosophy and style. Scolari is trying to
reshape Brazil's philosophy, their whole approach, it's all he and
obviously the Spanish talk about. Argies have their's (attack the living
daylights out of teams) which is a bit 50/50 but they understand
themselves. Germany tried similar ideas to Spain just didn't work out as
well but still not bad.
Where's our philosophy? For years we have played like strangers and had trouble keeping the ball. Why?England has always been about individuals. They don't play collectively as a team getting by on individual moments of brilliance. The defence will do its job but that X-factor needed to avoid penalty shootouts isn't there. It's why we've failed in every single big tournament since 1966 comparable to the American Dream Teams in basketball since so many fans think we had world class players!
Watch Liverpool, Southampton and Everton this season and there's a fluidity to all those sides when they're in possession. Contrast that to England (specifically the off the ball movement and team shape) and there's a marked difference in possession football. Rooney will have trouble playing and adapting to a 4-3-3 formation as long as dinosaurs like Hodgson and Moyes make him the main man he patently is not. He's good and experienced but what you're not seeing is where he fits in the team.
For Rooney to be considered world class he has to be much more disciplined in the role he wants. Ferguson knew that in his reluctance to give Rooney an extension when he retired. He had his doubts. He never played Rooney centrally as long as Ronaldo and RVP were there. He was effective out wide when told to protect his flanks switching sides with his fellow wide players.
You mentioned Torres and Villa but both have regressed considerably in the last few years and for me, simply just good players and Rooney is probably more comparable to Carlos Tevez then genuine world class players like Ronaldo or Messi. Steven Gerrard is a much better example of the need to reinvent his game because from 2001 to 2009 he was a truly world class player influencing huge games on the biggest stages in a way Rooney never has. After his legs betrayed him, he always resisted attempts by Benitez to redefine his role from Roy of the Rovers box to box midfielder to the controlling midfielder he is now.
Rodgers made him understood what the role requires and now he really is looking very much a world class player he was but in different terms of influence and style. It's why I have no worries about Lampard and Gerrard playing together as I did before because I can now see Gerrard understanding and accepting his new role then he did before this season. Before those two were widely acclaimed as World Class but never played well together and couldn't seem to gel when given their chances as the midfield two.
Even so it took Gerrard up to Xmas to fully understand his new position as he was utter crap in the early parts of this season when he kept losing the ball and couldn't get back to defend. I do hope Rooney proves me wrong and win England the World Cup but highly unlikely. If Rooney wants to learn what a forward should do in a 4-3-3 he need to only look across the road to Luis Suarez! I only hope the lesson he should be taking is not in the Group stages!
0
I've never understood the perception that England has world class players. World Class is becoming overused. I think we're getting our definitions of "world class" mixed up. I reserve that term for the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Baresi, Matthaus, Keane and in particular Thierry Henry who was incredibly explosive and prolific for a good few years.
We've had good players but if the World Cup was won by world class players alone, the likes of Portugal and Argentina would be dominant in previous two World Cups. It's just a completely bizarre way the English view International football - endless and useless chatter
about individuals here, this player there, that guy up front...
When I say the Brazilians, Germans and Spaniards are ahead it is because they are! All they talk about abroad is philosophy and style. Scolari is trying to
reshape Brazil's philosophy, their whole approach, it's all he and
obviously the Spanish talk about. Argies have their's (attack the living
daylights out of teams) which is a bit 50/50 but they understand
themselves. Germany tried similar ideas to Spain just didn't work out as
well but still not bad.
Where's our philosophy? For years we have played like strangers and had trouble keeping the ball. Why?England has always been about individuals. They don't play collectively as a team getting by on individual moments of brilliance. The defence will do its job but that X-factor needed to avoid penalty shootouts isn't there. It's why we've failed in every single big tournament since 1966 comparable to the American Dream Teams in basketball since so many fans think we had world class players!
Watch Liverpool, Southampton and Everton this season and there's a fluidity to all those sides when they're in possession. Contrast that to England (specifically the off the ball movement and team shape) and there's a marked difference in possession football. Rooney will have trouble playing and adapting to a 4-3-3 formation as long as dinosaurs like Hodgson and Moyes make him the main man he patently is not. He's good and experienced but what you're not seeing is where he fits in the team.
For Rooney to be considered world class he has to be much more disciplined in the role he wants. Ferguson knew that in his reluctance to give Rooney an extension when he retired. He had his doubts. He never played Rooney centrally as long as Ronaldo and RVP were there. He was effective out wide when told to protect his flanks switching sides with his fellow wide players.
You mentioned Torres and Villa but both have regressed considerably in the last few years and for me, simply just good players and Rooney is probably more comparable to Carlos Tevez then genuine world class players like Ronaldo or Messi. Steven Gerrard is a much better example of the need to reinvent his game because from 2001 to 2009 he was a truly world class player influencing huge games on the biggest stages in a way Rooney never has. After his legs betrayed him, he always resisted attempts by Benitez to redefine his role from Roy of the Rovers box to box midfielder to the controlling midfielder he is now.
Rodgers made him understood what the role requires and now he really is looking very much a world class player he was but in different terms of influence and style. It's why I have no worries about Lampard and Gerrard playing together as I did before because I can now see Gerrard understanding and accepting his new role then he did before this season. Before those two were widely acclaimed as World Class but never played well together and couldn't seem to gel when given their chances as the midfield two.
Even so it took Gerrard up to Xmas to fully understand his new position as he was utter crap in the early parts of this season when he kept losing the ball and couldn't get back to defend. I do hope Rooney proves me wrong and win England the World Cup but highly unlikely. If Rooney wants to learn what a forward should do in a 4-3-3 he need to only look across the road to Luis Suarez! I only hope the lesson he should be taking is not in the Group stages!
1966! Geoff Hurst vs Germany I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
But then again, all about opinions. Everyone think Rooney is world class, I don't!!! GL with Italy though you should be supporting Canada or USA?!!
i do support Canada and Italy first and USA second.
0
Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
1966! Geoff Hurst vs Germany I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
But then again, all about opinions. Everyone think Rooney is world class, I don't!!! GL with Italy though you should be supporting Canada or USA?!!
i do support Canada and Italy first and USA second.
I've never understood the perception that England has world class players. World Class is becoming overused. I think we're getting our definitions of "world class" mixed up. I reserve that term for the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Baresi, Matthaus, Keane and in particular Thierry Henry who was incredibly explosive and prolific for a good few years.
We've had good players but if the World Cup was won by world class players alone, the likes of Portugal and Argentina would be dominant in previous two World Cups. It's just a completely bizarre way the English view International football - endless and useless chatter
about individuals here, this player there, that guy up front...
When I say the Brazilians, Germans and Spaniards are ahead it is because they are! All they talk about abroad is philosophy and style. Scolari is trying to
reshape Brazil's philosophy, their whole approach, it's all he and
obviously the Spanish talk about. Argies have their's (attack the living
daylights out of teams) which is a bit 50/50 but they understand
themselves. Germany tried similar ideas to Spain just didn't work out as
well but still not bad.
Where's our philosophy? For years we have played like strangers and had trouble keeping the ball. Why?England has always been about individuals. They don't play collectively as a team getting by on individual moments of brilliance. The defence will do its job but that X-factor needed to avoid penalty shootouts isn't there. It's why we've failed in every single big tournament since 1966 comparable to the American Dream Teams in basketball since so many fans think we had world class players!
Watch Liverpool, Southampton and Everton this season and there's a fluidity to all those sides when they're in possession. Contrast that to England (specifically the off the ball movement and team shape) and there's a marked difference in possession football. Rooney will have trouble playing and adapting to a 4-3-3 formation as long as dinosaurs like Hodgson and Moyes make him the main man he patently is not. He's good and experienced but what you're not seeing is where he fits in the team.
For Rooney to be considered world class he has to be much more disciplined in the role he wants. Ferguson knew that in his reluctance to give Rooney an extension when he retired. He had his doubts. He never played Rooney centrally as long as Ronaldo and RVP were there. He was effective out wide when told to protect his flanks switching sides with his fellow wide players.
You mentioned Torres and Villa but both have regressed considerably in the last few years and for me, simply just good players and Rooney is probably more comparable to Carlos Tevez then genuine world class players like Ronaldo or Messi. Steven Gerrard is a much better example of the need to reinvent his game because from 2001 to 2009 he was a truly world class player influencing huge games on the biggest stages in a way Rooney never has. After his legs betrayed him, he always resisted attempts by Benitez to redefine his role from Roy of the Rovers box to box midfielder to the controlling midfielder he is now.
Rodgers made him understood what the role requires and now he really is looking very much a world class player he was but in different terms of influence and style. It's why I have no worries about Lampard and Gerrard playing together as I did before because I can now see Gerrard understanding and accepting his new role then he did before this season. Before those two were widely acclaimed as World Class but never played well together and couldn't seem to gel when given their chances as the midfield two.
Even so it took Gerrard up to Xmas to fully understand his new position as he was utter crap in the early parts of this season when he kept losing the ball and couldn't get back to defend. I do hope Rooney proves me wrong and win England the World Cup but highly unlikely. If Rooney wants to learn what a forward should do in a 4-3-3 he need to only look across the road to Luis Suarez! I only hope the lesson he should be taking is not in the Group stages!
Mentioning those names, but not mentioning Zidane....
Anyways, you dont like england, i love 'em, so youre not gonna bet on them; i am. I think Englands team is great. You are underestimating Rooney BIG time, he is not the best forward in football by no means, but he is decent and still someone id choose over many.
0
Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
I've never understood the perception that England has world class players. World Class is becoming overused. I think we're getting our definitions of "world class" mixed up. I reserve that term for the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Baresi, Matthaus, Keane and in particular Thierry Henry who was incredibly explosive and prolific for a good few years.
We've had good players but if the World Cup was won by world class players alone, the likes of Portugal and Argentina would be dominant in previous two World Cups. It's just a completely bizarre way the English view International football - endless and useless chatter
about individuals here, this player there, that guy up front...
When I say the Brazilians, Germans and Spaniards are ahead it is because they are! All they talk about abroad is philosophy and style. Scolari is trying to
reshape Brazil's philosophy, their whole approach, it's all he and
obviously the Spanish talk about. Argies have their's (attack the living
daylights out of teams) which is a bit 50/50 but they understand
themselves. Germany tried similar ideas to Spain just didn't work out as
well but still not bad.
Where's our philosophy? For years we have played like strangers and had trouble keeping the ball. Why?England has always been about individuals. They don't play collectively as a team getting by on individual moments of brilliance. The defence will do its job but that X-factor needed to avoid penalty shootouts isn't there. It's why we've failed in every single big tournament since 1966 comparable to the American Dream Teams in basketball since so many fans think we had world class players!
Watch Liverpool, Southampton and Everton this season and there's a fluidity to all those sides when they're in possession. Contrast that to England (specifically the off the ball movement and team shape) and there's a marked difference in possession football. Rooney will have trouble playing and adapting to a 4-3-3 formation as long as dinosaurs like Hodgson and Moyes make him the main man he patently is not. He's good and experienced but what you're not seeing is where he fits in the team.
For Rooney to be considered world class he has to be much more disciplined in the role he wants. Ferguson knew that in his reluctance to give Rooney an extension when he retired. He had his doubts. He never played Rooney centrally as long as Ronaldo and RVP were there. He was effective out wide when told to protect his flanks switching sides with his fellow wide players.
You mentioned Torres and Villa but both have regressed considerably in the last few years and for me, simply just good players and Rooney is probably more comparable to Carlos Tevez then genuine world class players like Ronaldo or Messi. Steven Gerrard is a much better example of the need to reinvent his game because from 2001 to 2009 he was a truly world class player influencing huge games on the biggest stages in a way Rooney never has. After his legs betrayed him, he always resisted attempts by Benitez to redefine his role from Roy of the Rovers box to box midfielder to the controlling midfielder he is now.
Rodgers made him understood what the role requires and now he really is looking very much a world class player he was but in different terms of influence and style. It's why I have no worries about Lampard and Gerrard playing together as I did before because I can now see Gerrard understanding and accepting his new role then he did before this season. Before those two were widely acclaimed as World Class but never played well together and couldn't seem to gel when given their chances as the midfield two.
Even so it took Gerrard up to Xmas to fully understand his new position as he was utter crap in the early parts of this season when he kept losing the ball and couldn't get back to defend. I do hope Rooney proves me wrong and win England the World Cup but highly unlikely. If Rooney wants to learn what a forward should do in a 4-3-3 he need to only look across the road to Luis Suarez! I only hope the lesson he should be taking is not in the Group stages!
Mentioning those names, but not mentioning Zidane....
Anyways, you dont like england, i love 'em, so youre not gonna bet on them; i am. I think Englands team is great. You are underestimating Rooney BIG time, he is not the best forward in football by no means, but he is decent and still someone id choose over many.
Fair enough bud. Zidane, Cruyff, Van Basten! So many can't list them all. As you're Danish, Michael Laudrup!
I agree he's good but you seem to put him on a pedestal of being alongside the truly world class players I've listed and ignore his faults. Read this article I found on Rooney:
Absolutely spot on analysis. I hope this helps you understand my train of thought better where Rooney is concerned. I love England as born and bred there but if you're asking me to bet with my heart and not my head, that is something I just will not do or I'd be bankrupt by now backing Liverpool and the NY Mets!! Best of luck and I do hope you're right. Would gladly pay to find out I got it badly wrong but the percentage call is no. Just being pragmatic!
0
Fair enough bud. Zidane, Cruyff, Van Basten! So many can't list them all. As you're Danish, Michael Laudrup!
I agree he's good but you seem to put him on a pedestal of being alongside the truly world class players I've listed and ignore his faults. Read this article I found on Rooney:
Absolutely spot on analysis. I hope this helps you understand my train of thought better where Rooney is concerned. I love England as born and bred there but if you're asking me to bet with my heart and not my head, that is something I just will not do or I'd be bankrupt by now backing Liverpool and the NY Mets!! Best of luck and I do hope you're right. Would gladly pay to find out I got it badly wrong but the percentage call is no. Just being pragmatic!
Fair enough bud. Zidane, Cruyff, Van Basten! So many can't list them all. As you're Danish, Michael Laudrup!
I agree he's good but you seem to put him on a pedestal of being alongside the truly world class players I've listed and ignore his faults. Read this article I found on Rooney:
Absolutely spot on analysis. I hope this helps you understand my train of thought better where Rooney is concerned. I love England as born and bred there but if you're asking me to bet with my heart and not my head, that is something I just will not do or I'd be bankrupt by now backing Liverpool and the NY Mets!! Best of luck and I do hope you're right. Would gladly pay to find out I got it badly wrong but the percentage call is no. Just being pragmatic!
Fair enough, i just think that if u mentioned Henry then Zidane deserved to get mentioned too ;)
I dont think Rooney is world class, but i think hes the kinda guy that suits Englands style pretty well, and i think it will work out well for england, with or without Rooney.
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Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
Fair enough bud. Zidane, Cruyff, Van Basten! So many can't list them all. As you're Danish, Michael Laudrup!
I agree he's good but you seem to put him on a pedestal of being alongside the truly world class players I've listed and ignore his faults. Read this article I found on Rooney:
Absolutely spot on analysis. I hope this helps you understand my train of thought better where Rooney is concerned. I love England as born and bred there but if you're asking me to bet with my heart and not my head, that is something I just will not do or I'd be bankrupt by now backing Liverpool and the NY Mets!! Best of luck and I do hope you're right. Would gladly pay to find out I got it badly wrong but the percentage call is no. Just being pragmatic!
Fair enough, i just think that if u mentioned Henry then Zidane deserved to get mentioned too ;)
I dont think Rooney is world class, but i think hes the kinda guy that suits Englands style pretty well, and i think it will work out well for england, with or without Rooney.
THAT is what i love about Rooney. He keeps things SO SIMPLE which is exactly what England needs. They are not Spain, they dont need players like Messi or Iniesta, coz thats not their style and way of playing football. Rooney fits perfectly in their style of playing imo.
0
THAT is what i love about Rooney. He keeps things SO SIMPLE which is exactly what England needs. They are not Spain, they dont need players like Messi or Iniesta, coz thats not their style and way of playing football. Rooney fits perfectly in their style of playing imo.
:o Wow! I see it completely differently!! HE did do well on the surface BUT the problem once again is the team looked far from fluid in possession with Norwich having plenty of the ball in the first half. This is where ENglish football has to evolve in getting away from the bare result and looking much more deeper. It's Norwich for christ sake!!
I do hope Man U get sucked in and give Giggs the job but I'm sure Ferguson will not be swayed on the back of that. The scoreline for me is irrelevant here. Moyes has had no problem getting results against crap teams even winning 4-0 vs Newcastle without Rooney. The real test is the record vs top 6 teams and nothing against Norwich has persuaded me Utd can do it on a consistent basis. Giggs still hasn't managed to curb Rooney's indiscipline in his position.
They might be able to sneak a result here and there but this is not the Utd we know and expect. 4-0 vs Norwich is par for the course. Anything less and they underperformed. After all you'd expect the worst team in MLB to still be able to beat a Triple AAA team???? To use baseball analogy, Utd won 4-0 with 4 singular HRs rather then battering an opposing pitcher with barrages of hits and walks throughout the game. Those 4 HRs being individual moments of brilliance rather then the consistent creation of pressure through hits.
I might be a bit harsh on Rooney but come on.. the guy earns £300k a week!!!! If he underperforms, that suits me fine as a Liverpool fan but this is betting forum and much more analysis is needed if you want to find that edge that separates the good and the bad handicappers.
0
:o Wow! I see it completely differently!! HE did do well on the surface BUT the problem once again is the team looked far from fluid in possession with Norwich having plenty of the ball in the first half. This is where ENglish football has to evolve in getting away from the bare result and looking much more deeper. It's Norwich for christ sake!!
I do hope Man U get sucked in and give Giggs the job but I'm sure Ferguson will not be swayed on the back of that. The scoreline for me is irrelevant here. Moyes has had no problem getting results against crap teams even winning 4-0 vs Newcastle without Rooney. The real test is the record vs top 6 teams and nothing against Norwich has persuaded me Utd can do it on a consistent basis. Giggs still hasn't managed to curb Rooney's indiscipline in his position.
They might be able to sneak a result here and there but this is not the Utd we know and expect. 4-0 vs Norwich is par for the course. Anything less and they underperformed. After all you'd expect the worst team in MLB to still be able to beat a Triple AAA team???? To use baseball analogy, Utd won 4-0 with 4 singular HRs rather then battering an opposing pitcher with barrages of hits and walks throughout the game. Those 4 HRs being individual moments of brilliance rather then the consistent creation of pressure through hits.
I might be a bit harsh on Rooney but come on.. the guy earns £300k a week!!!! If he underperforms, that suits me fine as a Liverpool fan but this is betting forum and much more analysis is needed if you want to find that edge that separates the good and the bad handicappers.
:o Wow! I see it completely differently!! HE did do well on the surface BUT the problem once again is the team looked far from fluid in possession with Norwich having plenty of the ball in the first half. This is where ENglish football has to evolve in getting away from the bare result and looking much more deeper. It's Norwich for christ sake!!
I do hope Man U get sucked in and give Giggs the job but I'm sure Ferguson will not be swayed on the back of that. The scoreline for me is irrelevant here. Moyes has had no problem getting results against crap teams even winning 4-0 vs Newcastle without Rooney. The real test is the record vs top 6 teams and nothing against Norwich has persuaded me Utd can do it on a consistent basis. Giggs still hasn't managed to curb Rooney's indiscipline in his position.
They might be able to sneak a result here and there but this is not the Utd we know and expect. 4-0 vs Norwich is par for the course. Anything less and they underperformed. After all you'd expect the worst team in MLB to still be able to beat a Triple AAA team???? To use baseball analogy, Utd won 4-0 with 4 singular HRs rather then battering an opposing pitcher with barrages of hits and walks throughout the game. Those 4 HRs being individual moments of brilliance rather then the consistent creation of pressure through hits.
I might be a bit harsh on Rooney but come on.. the guy earns £300k a week!!!! If he underperforms, that suits me fine as a Liverpool fan but this is betting forum and much more analysis is needed if you want to find that edge that separates the good and the bad handicappers.
It seems like your hate towards United (which you seem to have as a liverpool fan) affects your way of seeing Rooney. You are talking him down much more than what is necessary to make a point. You may not like him, i dont like Torres either, i dont like the cannibal or flanagan either, but still i should be looking at it from an objective angle, shouldnt i? YES, United are HORRIBLE they are AWFUL, they are old and washed up, their midfield is slow as f and their defense is ZzzzZzzZz, but what has this got to do with Rooney as a player? Why are u talking about uniteds season as a way of supporting your original statement saying that Rooney is an awful player? I just dont get it.. And you seem like a regular fan from England supporting his own club then bashing all other clubs (especially United) i may hate United too and their band wagon fans, but please dont be silly... And on another note, i hope you are aware of the fact that Rooney isnt the make or break player for England, they can do very well still in my eyes even if he doesnt show up to perform. They have great players all over the line as i see it and i believe they will do well here; with or without a good rooney. I just dont think hes a bad player. Actually, RVP is a better player in general in Arsenals scheme, but for United and England style of football i think Rooney suits better in. But thats just my view on it.
0
Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
:o Wow! I see it completely differently!! HE did do well on the surface BUT the problem once again is the team looked far from fluid in possession with Norwich having plenty of the ball in the first half. This is where ENglish football has to evolve in getting away from the bare result and looking much more deeper. It's Norwich for christ sake!!
I do hope Man U get sucked in and give Giggs the job but I'm sure Ferguson will not be swayed on the back of that. The scoreline for me is irrelevant here. Moyes has had no problem getting results against crap teams even winning 4-0 vs Newcastle without Rooney. The real test is the record vs top 6 teams and nothing against Norwich has persuaded me Utd can do it on a consistent basis. Giggs still hasn't managed to curb Rooney's indiscipline in his position.
They might be able to sneak a result here and there but this is not the Utd we know and expect. 4-0 vs Norwich is par for the course. Anything less and they underperformed. After all you'd expect the worst team in MLB to still be able to beat a Triple AAA team???? To use baseball analogy, Utd won 4-0 with 4 singular HRs rather then battering an opposing pitcher with barrages of hits and walks throughout the game. Those 4 HRs being individual moments of brilliance rather then the consistent creation of pressure through hits.
I might be a bit harsh on Rooney but come on.. the guy earns £300k a week!!!! If he underperforms, that suits me fine as a Liverpool fan but this is betting forum and much more analysis is needed if you want to find that edge that separates the good and the bad handicappers.
It seems like your hate towards United (which you seem to have as a liverpool fan) affects your way of seeing Rooney. You are talking him down much more than what is necessary to make a point. You may not like him, i dont like Torres either, i dont like the cannibal or flanagan either, but still i should be looking at it from an objective angle, shouldnt i? YES, United are HORRIBLE they are AWFUL, they are old and washed up, their midfield is slow as f and their defense is ZzzzZzzZz, but what has this got to do with Rooney as a player? Why are u talking about uniteds season as a way of supporting your original statement saying that Rooney is an awful player? I just dont get it.. And you seem like a regular fan from England supporting his own club then bashing all other clubs (especially United) i may hate United too and their band wagon fans, but please dont be silly... And on another note, i hope you are aware of the fact that Rooney isnt the make or break player for England, they can do very well still in my eyes even if he doesnt show up to perform. They have great players all over the line as i see it and i believe they will do well here; with or without a good rooney. I just dont think hes a bad player. Actually, RVP is a better player in general in Arsenals scheme, but for United and England style of football i think Rooney suits better in. But thats just my view on it.
First of all: I never said Rooney's an awful player. He's good but cannot understand the label of "world class" the media and fans award him. Within a framework of certain teams he's very good but I want England to be much more then just a quarter-finalist. That won't happen without changing the culture of the national team. Passion is what we're good at but where has that got us? One world cup win back in 1966 is poor for a nation that invented the game.
I'm actually quite objective because I'm saying what I'm actually seeing. Football has evolved from sticking 11 names on a teamsheet and asking them to play for the country as they do for their clubs. I'm sick of watching England lose heroically on penalty shootouts. That evolution includes getting players to truly understand every aspects of their game. They all have good levels of technical ability but the difference between England and other major footballing nations is team culture and direction.
I don't know if you've actually watched England in the last 20 years but surely you will note that we always had trouble retaining possession and play like strangers, not a team. The point is it is very much a team game at international level. When a coach does not communicate a clear vision of what he wants to do in nano terms, a team is exposed.
England's culture for football has always been behind their continental cousins. From diet, training and philosophies. Only now we are catching up with the rest of the world. Even when the rest of the world were diving all over the place in the late 1990s we were naive to stay on our feet. These days we're still taking the moral high ground but that could well cost us.
"YES, United are HORRIBLE they are AWFUL, they are old and washed up,
their midfield is slow as f and their defense is ZzzzZzzZz, but what has
this got to do with Rooney as a player? " I never said Rooney is the sole reason for Utd's demise at all but he's been the main man all season with RVP out. He hasn't convinced anyone he should be the main man at the World Cup.
The one thing you're missing here is all the points I have made is not about Rooney but the COACH. Roy Hodgson is the key man plain and simple. How the coach manages Rooney is simply an example of the things that holds England back. It depends what you look for when you watch a game. I expect my strikers to do exactly what they are paid to do. Rooney does score goals BUT the big problem is when he cannot rely on individual brilliance and it's to the detriment of the team shape. Eriksson tried to change him before and failed. Ferguson also did the same thing and failed hence the falling out between the two last season.
Football is all about opinions. We're all entitled to our own. I don't bet football much these days but I do watch a hell of a lot! Most guys can spot a decent player and I'm no different. Rooney IS a very good player BUT until he learns to discipline himself and not do too much, he will not evolve into the world class player he promised 10 years ago. He has stood still whilst failing to develop his own game into something more cerebral then brute force.
Take Gerrard's performance vs Chelsea. Asides from the mistake we controlled the game in the first half. We lost. I get that. These things happen but the best example of positional indiscipline I am talking about so often came in the later stages of the second half when we conceded the second goal. Gerrard was utter crap in the early parts of the season. Why? He kept trying to do everything and when he lost the ball, he didn't have the legs to get back and defend.
He finally understood at Xmas what Rodgers was trying to do but what happened there today was the Gerrard of old. In pushing up the pitch and trying to make up for his early mistakes (by trying to do everything and be everywhere), Liverpool lost their shape and sense of direction. Some people call it panic and essentially it was Gerrard who lost his positional discipline that has made him so good in the last few months.
You're a fan of Rooney, fair enough. But to expect England fans to stomach yet another tournament failure by accepting these things happen without dissecting WHY is a bit insulting! Rooney is NOT the sole reason but he is perhaps the epitome of why England has repeatedly failed so many times. I used baseball parlance in another thread and I'm not quite sure if you understand where I'm coming from but England has 11 HR hitters where I'd much have 11 x .300 hitters! Players accumulate much more hits then home runs. Simple maths. Simple balance of probabilities but still England persists with having 11 HR hitters in the team and hoping one will hit it out the ballpark without any designs on creating runs on a consistent basis.
GL bud. I'm an England fan but I'm also realistic enough to know we're certainly the outsiders of the tournament.
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First of all: I never said Rooney's an awful player. He's good but cannot understand the label of "world class" the media and fans award him. Within a framework of certain teams he's very good but I want England to be much more then just a quarter-finalist. That won't happen without changing the culture of the national team. Passion is what we're good at but where has that got us? One world cup win back in 1966 is poor for a nation that invented the game.
I'm actually quite objective because I'm saying what I'm actually seeing. Football has evolved from sticking 11 names on a teamsheet and asking them to play for the country as they do for their clubs. I'm sick of watching England lose heroically on penalty shootouts. That evolution includes getting players to truly understand every aspects of their game. They all have good levels of technical ability but the difference between England and other major footballing nations is team culture and direction.
I don't know if you've actually watched England in the last 20 years but surely you will note that we always had trouble retaining possession and play like strangers, not a team. The point is it is very much a team game at international level. When a coach does not communicate a clear vision of what he wants to do in nano terms, a team is exposed.
England's culture for football has always been behind their continental cousins. From diet, training and philosophies. Only now we are catching up with the rest of the world. Even when the rest of the world were diving all over the place in the late 1990s we were naive to stay on our feet. These days we're still taking the moral high ground but that could well cost us.
"YES, United are HORRIBLE they are AWFUL, they are old and washed up,
their midfield is slow as f and their defense is ZzzzZzzZz, but what has
this got to do with Rooney as a player? " I never said Rooney is the sole reason for Utd's demise at all but he's been the main man all season with RVP out. He hasn't convinced anyone he should be the main man at the World Cup.
The one thing you're missing here is all the points I have made is not about Rooney but the COACH. Roy Hodgson is the key man plain and simple. How the coach manages Rooney is simply an example of the things that holds England back. It depends what you look for when you watch a game. I expect my strikers to do exactly what they are paid to do. Rooney does score goals BUT the big problem is when he cannot rely on individual brilliance and it's to the detriment of the team shape. Eriksson tried to change him before and failed. Ferguson also did the same thing and failed hence the falling out between the two last season.
Football is all about opinions. We're all entitled to our own. I don't bet football much these days but I do watch a hell of a lot! Most guys can spot a decent player and I'm no different. Rooney IS a very good player BUT until he learns to discipline himself and not do too much, he will not evolve into the world class player he promised 10 years ago. He has stood still whilst failing to develop his own game into something more cerebral then brute force.
Take Gerrard's performance vs Chelsea. Asides from the mistake we controlled the game in the first half. We lost. I get that. These things happen but the best example of positional indiscipline I am talking about so often came in the later stages of the second half when we conceded the second goal. Gerrard was utter crap in the early parts of the season. Why? He kept trying to do everything and when he lost the ball, he didn't have the legs to get back and defend.
He finally understood at Xmas what Rodgers was trying to do but what happened there today was the Gerrard of old. In pushing up the pitch and trying to make up for his early mistakes (by trying to do everything and be everywhere), Liverpool lost their shape and sense of direction. Some people call it panic and essentially it was Gerrard who lost his positional discipline that has made him so good in the last few months.
You're a fan of Rooney, fair enough. But to expect England fans to stomach yet another tournament failure by accepting these things happen without dissecting WHY is a bit insulting! Rooney is NOT the sole reason but he is perhaps the epitome of why England has repeatedly failed so many times. I used baseball parlance in another thread and I'm not quite sure if you understand where I'm coming from but England has 11 HR hitters where I'd much have 11 x .300 hitters! Players accumulate much more hits then home runs. Simple maths. Simple balance of probabilities but still England persists with having 11 HR hitters in the team and hoping one will hit it out the ballpark without any designs on creating runs on a consistent basis.
GL bud. I'm an England fan but I'm also realistic enough to know we're certainly the outsiders of the tournament.
-Austria won the Eurovision Song contest -Atletico won La Liga -Spain won the previous European Championship preceding the World Cup -A team came back from 2-0 down to win the FA Cup! (Arsenal) AND ENGLAND WON THE WORLD CUP!
*Liverpool did win the League in 1966 and wasn't far off!!! *Real Madrid could still win the European Cup (Champions LEague) as they did in 1966.
Is it our year??? Despite not liking our chances, I hope so!
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Funny thing co-incidences are but in 1966:
-Austria won the Eurovision Song contest -Atletico won La Liga -Spain won the previous European Championship preceding the World Cup -A team came back from 2-0 down to win the FA Cup! (Arsenal) AND ENGLAND WON THE WORLD CUP!
*Liverpool did win the League in 1966 and wasn't far off!!! *Real Madrid could still win the European Cup (Champions LEague) as they did in 1966.
Is it our year??? Despite not liking our chances, I hope so!
-Austria won the Eurovision Song contest -Atletico won La Liga -Spain won the previous European Championship preceding the World Cup -A team came back from 2-0 down to win the FA Cup! (Arsenal) AND ENGLAND WON THE WORLD CUP!
*Liverpool did win the League in 1966 and wasn't far off!!! *Real Madrid could still win the European Cup (Champions LEague) as they did in 1966.
Is it our year??? Despite not liking our chances, I hope so!
Haha nice, where did u find that.
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Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
Funny thing co-incidences are but in 1966:
-Austria won the Eurovision Song contest -Atletico won La Liga -Spain won the previous European Championship preceding the World Cup -A team came back from 2-0 down to win the FA Cup! (Arsenal) AND ENGLAND WON THE WORLD CUP!
*Liverpool did win the League in 1966 and wasn't far off!!! *Real Madrid could still win the European Cup (Champions LEague) as they did in 1966.
Is it our year??? Despite not liking our chances, I hope so!
pick it up over the course of year mate. It started with Liverpool's shot at the title and there were incredible parrallels to LFC's 1966 title run with freakish co-incidences. Friend of mine backed austria for the Eurovisions then when Atleti won La Liga, it began to stack up! Throw in Arsenal's FA Cup comeback and not difficult to add it all up!
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pick it up over the course of year mate. It started with Liverpool's shot at the title and there were incredible parrallels to LFC's 1966 title run with freakish co-incidences. Friend of mine backed austria for the Eurovisions then when Atleti won La Liga, it began to stack up! Throw in Arsenal's FA Cup comeback and not difficult to add it all up!
pick it up over the course of year mate. It started with Liverpool's shot at the title and there were incredible parrallels to LFC's 1966 title run with freakish co-incidences. Friend of mine backed austria for the Eurovisions then when Atleti won La Liga, it began to stack up! Throw in Arsenal's FA Cup comeback and not difficult to add it all up!
im buying it
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Quote Originally Posted by giant_causeway:
pick it up over the course of year mate. It started with Liverpool's shot at the title and there were incredible parrallels to LFC's 1966 title run with freakish co-incidences. Friend of mine backed austria for the Eurovisions then when Atleti won La Liga, it began to stack up! Throw in Arsenal's FA Cup comeback and not difficult to add it all up!
Pure co-incidence for me but nice co-incidences. Shame Liverpool couldn't fulfil their part of the deal. Real Madrid still needs to win the CL but the omens if you believe in that kind of stuff are a bit freaky!
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Pure co-incidence for me but nice co-incidences. Shame Liverpool couldn't fulfil their part of the deal. Real Madrid still needs to win the CL but the omens if you believe in that kind of stuff are a bit freaky!
The heat and humidity really varies from location to location. June is technically winter for the southern hemisphere. And the farther away from the equator you get, the more that matters.
That being said, in some places, the humidity is supposed to be incredibly oppressive though.
What teams will have an advantage in high humidity? Other than Brazil of course.
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The heat and humidity really varies from location to location. June is technically winter for the southern hemisphere. And the farther away from the equator you get, the more that matters.
That being said, in some places, the humidity is supposed to be incredibly oppressive though.
What teams will have an advantage in high humidity? Other than Brazil of course.
Asomugha, why don't you bet England to be the top European team? This is +1400 at 5dimes. Since you like England and not most of the other UEFA teams, you might as well get paid handsomely for it!
As you may recall from other threads, I don't like this bet much. Seems like a perfect fit for your predictions, though.
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Asomugha, why don't you bet England to be the top European team? This is +1400 at 5dimes. Since you like England and not most of the other UEFA teams, you might as well get paid handsomely for it!
As you may recall from other threads, I don't like this bet much. Seems like a perfect fit for your predictions, though.
0 World Cups. 
I don't get the love for Italy at all. Very average with the exception of Pirlo and Buffon but both are 34+. Italy's teams on the European stage has been exposed though in fairness Napoli were unlucky to go out getting the same points as Arsenal and Dortmund. Marco Verratti is decent for PSG but he's not a Ronaldo or Messi which would give a decent shot but nothing more.
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