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Does Religious Belief Make You a Better Person?

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luckbythetruck

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Posts: 1709

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 3:10 PM ET #76

Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:

i'd like to go to a religious site or maybe just a regular, non-degenerate site and throw some of these ideas out there and get a good discussion going (and take a few of the more knowledgeable guys here with me like vanzack, luck, cacabre and others). i think that would be interesting. of course, you always get a certain eprcentage who will tell me i'll get stuck by lightning or go to hell for asking critical questions but there have to be some people who can strongly defend the religions of christianity, islam and others without coming across as completely illogical and neurotic.

Club, I think you would have some who will damn you to hell or wish violent death and fire and brimstone on you.

But many others will "pity" you and try to help you along the path to the eternal truth. The quote from the book of John (which I had mentrioned used to be held up boldly at many sporitng events) is an effective and proven weapon in the Chrisitian arsenal.

In any case, I'd say your experiment would be impossible. Imagine 3 or 4 of us invading as newbies a forum on computers, or guns,or gardening, or cross-stitiching and bringing up the topic of religion. Ha ha, we'd all get banned posthaste!!

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searchwarrant

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Posts: 71023

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 3:12 PM ET #77

Vanzack...Have you ever seen the late George Carlin's act on the 10 commandments? It's pure genius.

Good thread gentlemen.

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luckbythetruck

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Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 3:37 PM ET #78

Jake brings up one of the two most potent weapons in the Christian arsenal ( as well as in most other religions).

One is vicarious redemption. This is as old as mankind. Ancient people, from pre-Chrisitan Europeans to the Mexican Aztecs, practiced a kind of vacarious redemption: THE TAKING OF INNOCENT LIVES IN ORDER TO APPEASE SOME ANGRY GODS, TO BRING RAINS OR OTHER GOOD FORTUNE UPON THE TRIBAL LANDS.

The bodies that were preserved in those Irish peat bogs almost certainly showed they were murdered, and most likely as sacrifices to their deities. The Aztecs killed prisoners and children for the same reasons. LIkely almost all ancient peoples did at one time. The old inhabitants of Judea sacrificed animals, but likely before that they hacked up humans.

The "advance" (in the eyes of some) is that the Chrisitan creed allowed for a Vicarious Redemption - that of the "Lamb of God", his own Son, actually, to be sacrificed for the greater good of mankind. In other words, not a child or a peasant or a war prisoner, but a god manifest sacrificed his life for your wellbeing and happiness!

In harsher times than the sofl cushions of civilizations that we slumber on today, that was very powerful stuff. One could bring those mysterious forces that controlled our lives to one's side if one could "believe" in a god who came to earth to die for our "sins."

Potent stiuff to our ancestors.

The other biggie for Christian propagandists is the promise of "eternal life." The fear of the grave has also been a ruling force for mankind from time immemorial. The Egyptians went to great lengths to prepare their royalty for the afterlife - which ended up in European and American mjuseums, if not stolen by graverobbers.

Even wealthy and middle-class Egyptians had burial chambers and mummification done for them.

Absolutely no question that a major reason for the success of Christianity was that it universalized several of the old primitive beliefs, and provided an afterlife for the sweating masses.

In the process, it took on a lot of the apparatus and symbolism of the old pagan religions. A mass at a Catholic church will show in full resplendent glory some of the colorful and dramatic showmanship of the Roman and Greek pagan forerunners of the modern creed.

In any case, Jake, thanks for joining in, and "bearing witness." Your best argument would be - to me - the historical one: Chrisitanity is the religion of the West, and we are all (most of us) Westerners.

Even our most militant athiests are mainly condemnatory of the rieligion of the West - Chrisitianity. It's the one they know intimately, the one they grew up with. Their condemnations of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are, at most, perfunctory.

We are, in a sense, all Christians. Even when we are anti-Christian. And even tho, as Nietzsche wrote, "There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross."

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Jake brings up one of the two most potent weapons in the Christian arsenal ( as well as in most other religions).

One is vicarious redemption. This is as old as mankind. Ancient people, from pre-Chrisitan Europeans to the Mexican Aztecs, practiced a kind of vacarious redemption: THE TAKING OF INNOCENT LIVES IN ORDER TO APPEASE SOME ANGRY GODS, TO BRING RAINS OR OTHER GOOD FORTUNE UPON THE TRIBAL LANDS.

The bodies that were preserved in those Irish peat bogs almost certainly showed they were murdered, and most likely as sacrifices to their deities. The Aztecs killed prisoners and children for the same reasons. LIkely almost all ancient peoples did at one time. The old inhabitants of Judea sacrificed animals, but likely before that they hacked up humans.

The "advance" (in the eyes of some) is that the Chrisitan creed allowed for a Vicarious Redemption - that of the "Lamb of God", his own Son, actually, to be sacrificed for the greater good of mankind. In other words, not a child or a peasant or a war prisoner, but a god manifest sacrificed his life for your wellbeing and happiness!

In harsher times than the sofl cushions of civilizations that we slumber on today, that was very powerful stuff. One could bring those mysterious forces that controlled our lives to one's side if one could "believe" in a god who came to earth to die for our "sins."

Potent stiuff to our ancestors.

The other biggie for Christian propagandists is the promise of "eternal life." The fear of the grave has also been a ruling force for mankind from time immemorial. The Egyptians went to great lengths to prepare their royalty for the afterlife - which ended up in European and American mjuseums, if not stolen by graverobbers.

Even wealthy and middle-class Egyptians had burial chambers and mummification done for them.

Absolutely no question that a major reason for the success of Christianity was that it universalized several of the old primitive beliefs, and provided an afterlife for the sweating masses.

In the process, it took on a lot of the apparatus and symbolism of the old pagan religions. A mass at a Catholic church will show in full resplendent glory some of the colorful and dramatic showmanship of the Roman and Greek pagan forerunners of the modern creed.

In any case, Jake, thanks for joining in, and "bearing witness." Your best argument would be - to me - the historical one: Chrisitanity is the religion of the West, and we are all (most of us) Westerners.

Even our most militant athiests are mainly condemnatory of the rieligion of the West - Chrisitianity. It's the one they know intimately, the one they grew up with. Their condemnations of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are, at most, perfunctory.

We are, in a sense, all Christians. Even when we are anti-Christian. And even tho, as Nietzsche wrote, "There was only one Christian, and he died on the cross."

ClubDirt

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Joined: May, 2003

Posts: 28196

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 3:40 PM ET #79

Quote Originally Posted by luckbythetruck:

Club, I think you would have some who will damn you to hell or wish violent death and fire and brimstone on you.

But many others will "pity" you and try to help you along the path to the eternal truth. The quote from the book of John (which I had mentrioned used to be held up boldly at many sporitng events) is an effective and proven weapon in the Chrisitian arsenal.

In any case, I'd say your experiment would be impossible. Imagine 3 or 4 of us invading as newbies a forum on computers, or guns,or gardening, or cross-stitiching and bringing up the topic of religion. Ha ha, we'd all get banned posthaste!!

yeah, i know the types. but the instigator in me likes the discourse anyway.

but you're right, you can't go to a pure religious forum because too many crazies would cloud the thread. if we went to a more general type of forum and tried to get into it with the regulars on a religious level, they'd probably boot us trouble makers out pretty quickly.

i do appreciate diamond explaining his ideas civilly. i have no issue with faith, belief, religion per se. but when people start saying their religion is better than anyone else's including atheists or discriminate against a group based on religious beliefs or enact laws based on religious beliefs, i'll go on the attack every time, even if my weapons of choice are just questions.

maybe i'm just still pissed you can't buy alcohol in georgia on sundays.

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luckbythetruck

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Joined: Jan, 2009

Posts: 1709

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 3:46 PM ET #80

The businessman that says "I'm a Christian" is the one that will take advantage or downright screw you out of your money and anything else he can.

I got a lot of stuff to do today, as well as to watch a little of the few NFLx games on, but I read this and have to heartily concur.

When I see that, or the fish symbol on a business, I run.

From sad experience - it's like a licence to steal. Or a warning to stay away. In some communities these people publish a "Christian Yellow Pages" A really valuable book - pick up a copy and be sure to stay away from such businesses. Sad but true

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SteelCash

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Joined: Oct, 2006

Posts: 5587

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 6:51 PM ET #81

Religion has nothing to do with making you a better person. Character is what makes you a better person. How you treat others. The values you have, the morals you live by...

There are all sorts of religions as you know. Some people don't believe in God. So what. That's their right. It doesn't mean they are any less loving, sincere, passionate or caring. Or better or worse. A person's character is the only way he should be judged. There are alot of good people out there. There are alot of "bad" people out there. Some of the good people are religious, some aren't. Some of the "bad" people are religious. Some aren't. Religion has nothing to do with it. Just be the best person you can be (I need to make many improvements) and that's all you can do.

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NJDevils

Covers Rehab

Joined: Oct, 2004

Posts: 33122

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 6:55 PM ET #82

good post Steelcash

watch that douchebag Kirk Camerons show on cable and see what a religious dipshit thinks of regular people

just be a good person and it doesnt matter what you believe in or dont believe in

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vanzack

Legend

Joined: Nov, 2001

Posts: 59782

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 7:12 PM ET #83

Quote Originally Posted by searchwarrant:

Vanzack...Have you ever seen the late George Carlin's act on the 10 commandments? It's pure genius.

Good thread gentlemen.

Yes, it is great. And right on.

Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.

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vanzack

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Joined: Nov, 2001

Posts: 59782

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 7:15 PM ET #84

Quote Originally Posted by SteelCash:

Religion has nothing to do with making you a better person. Character is what makes you a better person. How you treat others. The values you have, the morals you live by...

There are all sorts of religions as you know. Some people don't believe in God. So what. That's their right. It doesn't mean they are any less loving, sincere, passionate or caring. Or better or worse. A person's character is the only way he should be judged. There are alot of good people out there. There are alot of "bad" people out there. Some of the good people are religious, some aren't. Some of the "bad" people are religious. Some aren't. Religion has nothing to do with it. Just be the best person you can be (I need to make many improvements) and that's all you can do.

This is a great post, and would be great if ONLY Christians actually believed this....

But...

Christians believe you are going to hell. They also believe Ghandi went to hell. You see, the only way to heaven is to believe in their god and their savior. Are you the greatest, most moral, humanitarian person ever to live but happen to be born in China or Iran? Hell. Do great things all your life but are atheist? Hell.

There is no middle ground here. Christians do not believe what you wrote. A sinner who leads a horrible life, but believes in Christ goes to heaven - you go to hell - sorry - you lose.

Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.

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Maguire44

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Joined: Dec, 2006

Posts: 13841

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 7:22 PM ET #85

Absolutely wonderful thread.

Not sure if you've seen this, but watch this (It is exactly how I feel)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY8fjFKAC5k

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ClubDirt

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Joined: May, 2003

Posts: 28196

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 7:44 PM ET #86

carlin had a great delivery

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cacabware

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Joined: Dec, 2007

Posts: 11636

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 8:00 PM ET #87

6 hours later,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the threads only gotten better. Have a good nite people.

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Maguire44

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Joined: Dec, 2006

Posts: 13841

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 8:06 PM ET #88

I miss Carlin, what a genius...

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ClubDirt

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Joined: May, 2003

Posts: 28196

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 8:30 PM ET #89

on youtube, when yopu watch something, they have these related videos to the right. i've been watching this guy matt with his atheist experience show. this guy is alright.

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macman

Banned

Joined: Nov, 2005

Posts: 1830

Posted: Aug. 29, 2009 - 11:53 PM ET #90

Quote Originally Posted by ApacheM:

In answer to your question,,,,,Absolutely!!!

I believe in God, but won't waste my time argueing with people

that don't.

That's just me. God and I have an understanding.....We're both

fishermen, I don't preach and he doesn't sell trucks.

Oh, and we talk often.

Do you really believe this?
What do you talk about?
Enlighten me.
No disrespect intended, but when you say absoultley... you really believe this?
If so...you are nothing more than a misguided lemming.
It also flies in the face of your so called leader.
I respect the that you fought for what you thought was just.
I respect what you went through during those times.
To say what you said here???
Delusional at best.

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mrmyass

Prospect

Joined: Oct, 2008

Posts: 173

Posted: Aug. 30, 2009 - 4:06 AM ET #91

I believe religion can change people for the better. But just because your not a christian doesn't mean your a bad person. I know people who never touched alcohol or any kind of drug and there not christian. That makes me look really bad. My girl got me going to church more and its made me a better person i feel.

The only problem I truly have with religions beside christianity is that they all want you to blow yourself up or some shit like that. Thats just fucking stupid.

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captjohn67

Banned

Joined: Apr, 2008

Posts: 12821

Posted: Aug. 30, 2009 - 8:25 AM ET #92

Quote Originally Posted by SteelCash:

Religion has nothing to do with making you a better person. Character is what makes you a better person. How you treat others. The values you have, the morals you live by...

There are all sorts of religions as you know. Some people don't believe in God. So what. That's their right. It doesn't mean they are any less loving, sincere, passionate or caring. Or better or worse. A person's character is the only way he should be judged. There are alot of good people out there. There are alot of "bad" people out there. Some of the good people are religious, some aren't. Some of the "bad" people are religious. Some aren't. Religion has nothing to do with it. Just be the best person you can be (I need to make many improvements) and that's all you can do.

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jmw59

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Posts: 14428

Posted: Aug. 30, 2009 - 9:02 AM ET #93

yes

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luckbythetruck

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Posts: 1709

Posted: Aug. 30, 2009 - 9:52 AM ET #94

After the warlord ruler Constantine (later to be Saint Constantine) won a battle by supposedly hoisting the Christian cross, he convented to the creed of the gentle Jesus (but didn't "put up his sword") and got the enrire Byzantine empire to likewide convert.

And so the creed of persecuted person and gentile slaves became a state religion.

In doing so it lugged after it like a spoor many of the pagan rituals, beliefs and celebrations, It made the transition to Christianity a lot easier for the average pagan guy and gal.

Once, in the Armstrong publication, The Plain Truth, there was a good article as to how internal evidence of the Bible (shepherds tending flocks of sheep, the position of the Star, etc) deomonstrated tht JC was born,not in late December (by our calendar) but sometime in October.

The birthday of the Savior was moved up to co-incide with the Winter Solstice, which takes place (by our calendar) on around December 21.

This was a time the pagan peoples, in the winter, would hope for a renewal. And do all kinds of pagan rituals to keep themselves happy in the cold. They made offferings to the Sun God, to return to them someday.

The old pagan Germanic tribes would bring an evergreen tree into the house and decorate it with brightly colored cloth. Thus the pagan origin of our Christmas tree.

Ditto St Nick, or Father Christmas, or Kris Kringle: Santa Claus,in his bright red and white get-up. Paganism survives in our hearts.

No big transition. The pagans at this time praised and worshipped the Sun God. Christians do the same, for the Son of God.

Easter, according to the old English religious historian, The Venerable Bede, was originally a spring celebration of a Germanic goddess of fertility, named Eostre.

Same deal. Spring is the celbration of new life, of resurrection.

Flowers and plants in bloom, the earth coming to life after the long, cold winter.

Eostre, Easter. And those delightful pagan symbols of fertiity: eggs, rabbits. If you be a Christian, and send your child on an Easter egg hunt, dressed in rabbit ears, you are honoring your pagan ancestors.

If we in the West are all Chistians (in our way of thinking, regarless of our faith or lack of same) we are also all pagans.

The enviromental movement encompassses a lot of the old paganism, the nature worship. As in "tree hugger."