I do not know the training of cops but I assume that there are several training steps in the protocol before the kill shot (some of which include firing your gun and even striking a person) I may be wrong though.
The Zimmerman angle is also not so cut and dry. As is this case. In both cases the counter arguments, that I also have, are that many actions could of occurred prior to taking a life. And to be fair to both sides these steps are on the suspect as well as the victim. In the MO case the kid shares some blame for not complying with the cop. But are you telling me that the cop had no other option than to empty a clip on an unarmed kid? Cops enter hostile situations all the time but they rarely wind up with an unarmed person shot 6 times. Otherwise there would be multiple of these stories a day.
That dog don't hunt
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I do not know the training of cops but I assume that there are several training steps in the protocol before the kill shot (some of which include firing your gun and even striking a person) I may be wrong though.
The Zimmerman angle is also not so cut and dry. As is this case. In both cases the counter arguments, that I also have, are that many actions could of occurred prior to taking a life. And to be fair to both sides these steps are on the suspect as well as the victim. In the MO case the kid shares some blame for not complying with the cop. But are you telling me that the cop had no other option than to empty a clip on an unarmed kid? Cops enter hostile situations all the time but they rarely wind up with an unarmed person shot 6 times. Otherwise there would be multiple of these stories a day.
Randist -- your spur of the moment angle is a little off here. For your average citizen sure. But I assume that cops log hundreds of hours of tactical strategy on how to deal with this very scenario.
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Randist -- your spur of the moment angle is a little off here. For your average citizen sure. But I assume that cops log hundreds of hours of tactical strategy on how to deal with this very scenario.
Police are absolutely not trained to shoot to kill if shooting to injure can stop the target.
As to the rest of your statements, I think your statement that "we are on his {the officer's} side says it all.
I'll wait until I have the facts before choosing sides is necessary, if it is necessary at all.
And my true colors were also calling out the protestors for creating division rather than allowing an objective determination of facts.
And you call yourself an attorney? I can't believe you don't know law enforcement policy. You, Hollywood, and the political left may wish shoot to wound was the policy but it's not.
The information in these links are informative and make perfect sense, especially in the context of what happened in Ferguson (and other cities almost every night)
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:
Police are absolutely not trained to shoot to kill if shooting to injure can stop the target.
As to the rest of your statements, I think your statement that "we are on his {the officer's} side says it all.
I'll wait until I have the facts before choosing sides is necessary, if it is necessary at all.
And my true colors were also calling out the protestors for creating division rather than allowing an objective determination of facts.
And you call yourself an attorney? I can't believe you don't know law enforcement policy. You, Hollywood, and the political left may wish shoot to wound was the policy but it's not.
The information in these links are informative and make perfect sense, especially in the context of what happened in Ferguson (and other cities almost every night)
A couple of the things that are not being either considered or being conveniently forgotten by most are:
The officer may not have known that Brown had just committed a crime. (his family has confirmed HE was the one in the video taking merchandise by strong arm)
If the officer did not have the knowledge of the crime Brown just committed... He may not have expected Brown's "fight for survival".
The officer that shot Brown had swelling on the side of his face from his struggle with Brown...
The office was injured in his struggle with Brown. He apparently took a blow to the head...
According to autopsy results:
Brown was NOT on the ground when shot... Brown did NOT have his hands up when shot... Brown was NOT shot in the back running FROM the officer...
Facts people facts...
The autopsy proves the witness is a bald faced liar...
FACT... The officer had been injured by Brown and Brown was advancing on the officer.
Please, anybody post that having taken a blow to the head and being advanced on by Brown that the officer should have been in full awareness of his situation...
I really, really want someone to state a blow to the head cannot cause mental confusion...
Waiting...
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A couple of the things that are not being either considered or being conveniently forgotten by most are:
The officer may not have known that Brown had just committed a crime. (his family has confirmed HE was the one in the video taking merchandise by strong arm)
If the officer did not have the knowledge of the crime Brown just committed... He may not have expected Brown's "fight for survival".
The officer that shot Brown had swelling on the side of his face from his struggle with Brown...
The office was injured in his struggle with Brown. He apparently took a blow to the head...
According to autopsy results:
Brown was NOT on the ground when shot... Brown did NOT have his hands up when shot... Brown was NOT shot in the back running FROM the officer...
Facts people facts...
The autopsy proves the witness is a bald faced liar...
FACT... The officer had been injured by Brown and Brown was advancing on the officer.
Please, anybody post that having taken a blow to the head and being advanced on by Brown that the officer should have been in full awareness of his situation...
I really, really want someone to state a blow to the head cannot cause mental confusion...
Did you read the posts or just assume it is "Right Wing Lies"? If you are going to comment on the posts read the posts and point out specifically what is incorrect.
Here is some information to take from the links:
1. It is unrealistic to expect a policeman (or civilian protecting himself) to be able to shoot a known threat in the arm or leg when seconds count.
2. If the suspect is only wounded he can still do harm. If he is killed he is no longer a threat.
3. Shooting to only wound suggests the shooter (policeman) was not in fear for his life. And if he wasn't in fear for his life he shouldn't have pulled the pistol out in the first place.
If any of the members reading this are in the law enforcement industry, former cops, or personally know anyone in law enforcement I would like to hear your opinion.
0
Did you read the posts or just assume it is "Right Wing Lies"? If you are going to comment on the posts read the posts and point out specifically what is incorrect.
Here is some information to take from the links:
1. It is unrealistic to expect a policeman (or civilian protecting himself) to be able to shoot a known threat in the arm or leg when seconds count.
2. If the suspect is only wounded he can still do harm. If he is killed he is no longer a threat.
3. Shooting to only wound suggests the shooter (policeman) was not in fear for his life. And if he wasn't in fear for his life he shouldn't have pulled the pistol out in the first place.
If any of the members reading this are in the law enforcement industry, former cops, or personally know anyone in law enforcement I would like to hear your opinion.
A couple of the things that are not being either considered or being conveniently forgotten by most are:
The officer may not have known that Brown had just committed a crime. (his family has confirmed HE was the one in the video taking merchandise by strong arm)
If the officer did not have the knowledge of the crime Brown just committed... He may not have expected Brown's "fight for survival".
The officer that shot Brown had swelling on the side of his face from his struggle with Brown...
The office was injured in his struggle with Brown. He apparently took a blow to the head...
According to autopsy results:
Brown was NOT on the ground when shot... Brown did NOT have his hands up when shot... Brown was NOT shot in the back running FROM the officer...
Facts people facts...
The autopsy proves the witness is a bald faced liar...
FACT... The officer had been injured by Brown and Brown was advancing on the officer.
Please, anybody post that having taken a blow to the head and being advanced on by Brown that the officer should have been in full awareness of his situation...
I really, really want someone to state a blow to the head cannot cause mental confusion...
Waiting...
And remember, if a policeman is in a confrontation with a suspect and the suspect gets the upper hand, the policeman's pistol could soon become the suspect's pistol.
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Quote Originally Posted by Randisist:
A couple of the things that are not being either considered or being conveniently forgotten by most are:
The officer may not have known that Brown had just committed a crime. (his family has confirmed HE was the one in the video taking merchandise by strong arm)
If the officer did not have the knowledge of the crime Brown just committed... He may not have expected Brown's "fight for survival".
The officer that shot Brown had swelling on the side of his face from his struggle with Brown...
The office was injured in his struggle with Brown. He apparently took a blow to the head...
According to autopsy results:
Brown was NOT on the ground when shot... Brown did NOT have his hands up when shot... Brown was NOT shot in the back running FROM the officer...
Facts people facts...
The autopsy proves the witness is a bald faced liar...
FACT... The officer had been injured by Brown and Brown was advancing on the officer.
Please, anybody post that having taken a blow to the head and being advanced on by Brown that the officer should have been in full awareness of his situation...
I really, really want someone to state a blow to the head cannot cause mental confusion...
Waiting...
And remember, if a policeman is in a confrontation with a suspect and the suspect gets the upper hand, the policeman's pistol could soon become the suspect's pistol.
A couple of the things that are not being either considered or being conveniently forgotten by most are:
The officer may not have known that Brown had just committed a crime. (his family has confirmed HE was the one in the video taking merchandise by strong arm)
If the officer did not have the knowledge of the crime Brown just committed... He may not have expected Brown's "fight for survival".
The officer that shot Brown had swelling on the side of his face from his struggle with Brown...
The office was injured in his struggle with Brown. He apparently took a blow to the head...
According to autopsy results:
Brown was NOT on the ground when shot... Brown did NOT have his hands up when shot... Brown was NOT shot in the back running FROM the officer...
Facts people facts...
The autopsy proves the witness is a bald faced liar...
FACT... The officer had been injured by Brown and Brown was advancing on the officer.
Please, anybody post that having taken a blow to the head and being advanced on by Brown that the officer should have been in full awareness of his situation...
I really, really want someone to state a blow to the head cannot cause mental confusion...
Waiting...
I think all of your 'facts' above are not in evidence yet.
Right now, the only facts are the dead man and the number of bullet holes.
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Quote Originally Posted by Randisist:
A couple of the things that are not being either considered or being conveniently forgotten by most are:
The officer may not have known that Brown had just committed a crime. (his family has confirmed HE was the one in the video taking merchandise by strong arm)
If the officer did not have the knowledge of the crime Brown just committed... He may not have expected Brown's "fight for survival".
The officer that shot Brown had swelling on the side of his face from his struggle with Brown...
The office was injured in his struggle with Brown. He apparently took a blow to the head...
According to autopsy results:
Brown was NOT on the ground when shot... Brown did NOT have his hands up when shot... Brown was NOT shot in the back running FROM the officer...
Facts people facts...
The autopsy proves the witness is a bald faced liar...
FACT... The officer had been injured by Brown and Brown was advancing on the officer.
Please, anybody post that having taken a blow to the head and being advanced on by Brown that the officer should have been in full awareness of his situation...
I really, really want someone to state a blow to the head cannot cause mental confusion...
Waiting...
I think all of your 'facts' above are not in evidence yet.
Right now, the only facts are the dead man and the number of bullet holes.
Did you read the posts or just assume it is "Right Wing Lies"? If you are going to comment on the posts read the posts and point out specifically what is incorrect.
Here is some information to take from the links:
1. It is unrealistic to expect a policeman (or civilian protecting himself) to be able to shoot a known threat in the arm or leg when seconds count.
2. If the suspect is only wounded he can still do harm. If he is killed he is no longer a threat.
3. Shooting to only wound suggests the shooter (policeman) was not in fear for his life. And if he wasn't in fear for his life he shouldn't have pulled the pistol out in the first place.
If any of the members reading this are in the law enforcement industry, former cops, or personally know anyone in law enforcement I would like to hear your opinion.
The articles you posted dealt with police in life and death confrontations. A police officer is trained to shoot to kill when there is no other option and that is not what I am disputing.
I am stating that law enforcement manuals (and I am looking at one now) are such that discharging your weapon is not with the intent in every situation of killing the target.
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Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
Did you read the posts or just assume it is "Right Wing Lies"? If you are going to comment on the posts read the posts and point out specifically what is incorrect.
Here is some information to take from the links:
1. It is unrealistic to expect a policeman (or civilian protecting himself) to be able to shoot a known threat in the arm or leg when seconds count.
2. If the suspect is only wounded he can still do harm. If he is killed he is no longer a threat.
3. Shooting to only wound suggests the shooter (policeman) was not in fear for his life. And if he wasn't in fear for his life he shouldn't have pulled the pistol out in the first place.
If any of the members reading this are in the law enforcement industry, former cops, or personally know anyone in law enforcement I would like to hear your opinion.
The articles you posted dealt with police in life and death confrontations. A police officer is trained to shoot to kill when there is no other option and that is not what I am disputing.
I am stating that law enforcement manuals (and I am looking at one now) are such that discharging your weapon is not with the intent in every situation of killing the target.
The articles you posted dealt with police in life and death confrontations. A police officer is trained to shoot to kill when there is no other option and that is not what I am disputing.
I am stating that law enforcement manuals (and I am looking at one now) are such that discharging your weapon is not with the intent in every situation of killing the target.
I agree with you here.
The point I'm trying to make, and I pointed it out in post #171, is if a policeman's life, or someone else's life isn't in jeopardy, then the policemen shouldn't pull the pistol out in the first place. If he does pull it out, and uses it, he better be able to prove there was an immediate threat of danger.
As for the Ferguson case, if the policeman has bruises on his head from punches, then to me that is proof he was in danger. As I mentioned to Randi in post #172, if the suspect gets the upper hand the cop's pistol could become the suspect's pistol.
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:
The articles you posted dealt with police in life and death confrontations. A police officer is trained to shoot to kill when there is no other option and that is not what I am disputing.
I am stating that law enforcement manuals (and I am looking at one now) are such that discharging your weapon is not with the intent in every situation of killing the target.
I agree with you here.
The point I'm trying to make, and I pointed it out in post #171, is if a policeman's life, or someone else's life isn't in jeopardy, then the policemen shouldn't pull the pistol out in the first place. If he does pull it out, and uses it, he better be able to prove there was an immediate threat of danger.
As for the Ferguson case, if the policeman has bruises on his head from punches, then to me that is proof he was in danger. As I mentioned to Randi in post #172, if the suspect gets the upper hand the cop's pistol could become the suspect's pistol.
It is so easy to state whether a person is in a life threatening situation or not when you can stand back and second guess the situation.
One thing I can state as a fact... Military Police are trained never, ever give up your firearm or to allow a suspect to gain control of your weapon... And in the event you feel the suspect is after your weapon... Deadly force is authorized...
My relationship with civilian police has not been to the extent my relationships has been with MP's... But I doubt that the rules about protecting your weapon is greatly different.
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With respect to all...
It is so easy to state whether a person is in a life threatening situation or not when you can stand back and second guess the situation.
One thing I can state as a fact... Military Police are trained never, ever give up your firearm or to allow a suspect to gain control of your weapon... And in the event you feel the suspect is after your weapon... Deadly force is authorized...
My relationship with civilian police has not been to the extent my relationships has been with MP's... But I doubt that the rules about protecting your weapon is greatly different.
The point I'm trying to make, and I pointed it out in post #171, is if a policeman's life, or someone else's life isn't in jeopardy, then the policemen shouldn't pull the pistol out in the first place. If he does pull it out, and uses it, he better be able to prove there was an immediate threat of danger.
Well.....police will pull their weapons frequently in non-threatening situations (for example, if a suspect is a distance away, an officer may do so to prevent the person from fleeing).
So, I fully respect and support an officer pulling a weapon in non-dangerous situations.
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Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
I agree with you here.
The point I'm trying to make, and I pointed it out in post #171, is if a policeman's life, or someone else's life isn't in jeopardy, then the policemen shouldn't pull the pistol out in the first place. If he does pull it out, and uses it, he better be able to prove there was an immediate threat of danger.
Well.....police will pull their weapons frequently in non-threatening situations (for example, if a suspect is a distance away, an officer may do so to prevent the person from fleeing).
So, I fully respect and support an officer pulling a weapon in non-dangerous situations.
whether this cop murdered the kid remains to be seen.
but, it seems clear the cops are infringing on people's right to assemble and protest as well as the media. how soon before those Bundy ranch anti-tyranny patriots get there? this is exactly the kind of thing they were talking about. they must be pissed.
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whether this cop murdered the kid remains to be seen.
but, it seems clear the cops are infringing on people's right to assemble and protest as well as the media. how soon before those Bundy ranch anti-tyranny patriots get there? this is exactly the kind of thing they were talking about. they must be pissed.
Three autopsies so far... Sad beyond belief... I guess it is important to keep doing autopsies until it is proven the police office came to a screeching halt, jumped from his vehicle and "emptied his clip" into Brown's back while he lay on the ground with his hands above his head screaming:
"I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot" with his dieing breath...
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Three autopsies so far... Sad beyond belief... I guess it is important to keep doing autopsies until it is proven the police office came to a screeching halt, jumped from his vehicle and "emptied his clip" into Brown's back while he lay on the ground with his hands above his head screaming:
"I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot" with his dieing breath...
Well.....police will pull their weapons frequently in non-threatening situations (for example, if a suspect is a distance away, an officer may do so to prevent the person from fleeing).
So, I fully respect and support an officer pulling a weapon in non-dangerous situations.
I don't think a cop should pull their weapon if a suspect is fleeing. Besides the fact that the officer's life isn't in danger, if he has to chase the suspect on foot, running with a pistol drawn will slow the cop down (1) and endanger innocent bystanders if the gun goes off (2).
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:
Well.....police will pull their weapons frequently in non-threatening situations (for example, if a suspect is a distance away, an officer may do so to prevent the person from fleeing).
So, I fully respect and support an officer pulling a weapon in non-dangerous situations.
I don't think a cop should pull their weapon if a suspect is fleeing. Besides the fact that the officer's life isn't in danger, if he has to chase the suspect on foot, running with a pistol drawn will slow the cop down (1) and endanger innocent bystanders if the gun goes off (2).
I don't think a cop should pull their weapon if a suspect is fleeing. Besides the fact that the officer's life isn't in danger, if he has to chase the suspect on foot, running with a pistol drawn will slow the cop down (1) and endanger innocent bystanders if the gun goes off (2).
I imagine it happens, but that really wasn't what I said. Its actually in the manual to show your weapon to prevent a suspect from fleeing. What happens when some flee is a different matter and obviously, case by case.
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Quote Originally Posted by canovsp:
I don't think a cop should pull their weapon if a suspect is fleeing. Besides the fact that the officer's life isn't in danger, if he has to chase the suspect on foot, running with a pistol drawn will slow the cop down (1) and endanger innocent bystanders if the gun goes off (2).
I imagine it happens, but that really wasn't what I said. Its actually in the manual to show your weapon to prevent a suspect from fleeing. What happens when some flee is a different matter and obviously, case by case.
Three autopsies so far... Sad beyond belief... I guess it is important to keep doing autopsies until it is proven the police office came to a screeching halt, jumped from his vehicle and "emptied his clip" into Brown's back while he lay on the ground with his hands above his head screaming:
"I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot" with his dieing breath...
Autopsies can be for different things. We like to think that they are all to show the actual cause of death, but it sounds like the last one that was just released was more for wound ballistic testing, which the other was not.
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Quote Originally Posted by Randisist:
Three autopsies so far... Sad beyond belief... I guess it is important to keep doing autopsies until it is proven the police office came to a screeching halt, jumped from his vehicle and "emptied his clip" into Brown's back while he lay on the ground with his hands above his head screaming:
"I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot", "I surrender, Don't shoot" with his dieing breath...
Autopsies can be for different things. We like to think that they are all to show the actual cause of death, but it sounds like the last one that was just released was more for wound ballistic testing, which the other was not.
Autopsies can be for different things. We like to think that they are all to show the actual cause of death, but it sounds like the last one that was just released was more for wound ballistic testing, which the other was not.
I well understand not all autopsies are the same and can be preformed for different reasons.
What is humorous (for lack of a better word and not in a funny, haha way) is how the results will be spun to prove the facts we want. Autopsies are not black and white, one or zero situations. Some results are yes or no... Was Brown shot? yes...
Some questions... bullet tragedies; exactly what position the body was in when the bullets entered and exited... cannot always be stated without question...
For many, if we can get a maybe, might as to what we want the facts to be... Then we declare them as undisputed facts... Without question... And conveniently forget that other possibilities exist...
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:
Autopsies can be for different things. We like to think that they are all to show the actual cause of death, but it sounds like the last one that was just released was more for wound ballistic testing, which the other was not.
I well understand not all autopsies are the same and can be preformed for different reasons.
What is humorous (for lack of a better word and not in a funny, haha way) is how the results will be spun to prove the facts we want. Autopsies are not black and white, one or zero situations. Some results are yes or no... Was Brown shot? yes...
Some questions... bullet tragedies; exactly what position the body was in when the bullets entered and exited... cannot always be stated without question...
For many, if we can get a maybe, might as to what we want the facts to be... Then we declare them as undisputed facts... Without question... And conveniently forget that other possibilities exist...
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