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Posted: #1576
Was that too complicated for you Rostos? Maybe you should read it a few more times.

I don't believe the universe popped out of nothing. You want to believe that so you can attack it but that's not what i believe. I don't have to make any claims about how the universe formed not to believe in your God or his creation story.
 
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Posted: #1577
Theories of what caused the big bang:

1. It came out of nothing
2. God
3. 2 universes collided in the multiverse
4. The universe eternally expands and contracts (although we're pretty sure this isn't the case)
5-infinity. Other theories yet to be made.

Purpose of this post: to disprove Rostos' claim that you are limited to 1 and 2
 
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Posted: #1578
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Theories of what caused the big bang:

1. It came out of nothing
2. God
3. 2 universes collided in the multiverse
4. The universe eternally expands and contracts (although we're pretty sure this isn't the case)
5-infinity. Other theories yet to be made.

Purpose of this post: to disprove Rostos' claim that you are limited to 1 and 2

Even if it was 2, still doesn't prove god of the bible
 
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Posted: #1579
I have faith that hair can come from nothing.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
 
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Posted: #1580
fuckin thread is useless without bread or wine
 
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Posted: #1581
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

If you look at the sun from earth it LOOKS like a circle......

Furthermore, back in the old days, EVERYONE thought that the earth rested on 3 large tourtouses, in the bible it is clearly written that he "hangeth the earth of nothing".

How does the bible KNOW that without the technology that we have today?


It also says that earth is fixed and can't be moved. It also says that snakes and donkeys can talk. It also says that the sun, all of the stars and the moon are fixed in the firmament, which is a crystal dome above the earth's atmosphere.

You forgot to mention that one didnt you?




It also says that earth is fixed and can't be moved. It also says that snakes and donkeys can talk. It also says that the sun, all of the stars and the moon are fixed in the firmament, which is a crystal dome above the earth's atmosphere.

And of all beings God should know the difference between a circle, sphere, and a oblate spheroid.



 
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Posted: #1582
This is a good time to explain what a red herring fallacy is.

https://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

  1. Topic A is under discussion.
  2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  3. Topic A is abandoned.


Topic A
Quote Originally Posted by MRGETRICH:



No it does not. Humans, chimpanzees, orangutans, and other apes all have a broken vitamin c gene in the same place. That gene enables other mammals to produce vitamin c naturally. We can't.  How do completely unrelated species (as you claim) have identical broken genes at the same place in the genome if not for common ancestry?


Topic B
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

No worries Mr "Something CAN come from nothing"

No worries.



If you notice now, topic A has been abandon.

He realized he could not answer my question, he had to bring in a topic unrelated to what we were talking about to drive attention away from a point that he can't refute. I should have noticed that before.







 
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Posted: #1583
Rostos doesn't address the parts of the bible that don't fall in line with his beliefs. Those parts are "metaphors." Only the verses that seem to speak to reality are "prophecies."
 
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Posted: #1584

Quote Originally Posted by MRGETRICH:

Yet another challenge to creationists here. Name one time where a previous unknown phenomena  on earth was discovered and the cause of it had a supernatural explanation.

Examples: Earthquakes, Rain, thunder, lighting, fire, rainbows ect...all at one point were thought to be the direct work of deities and or the supernatural. Once we found out what the real cause was it turned out to be a 100% natural and scientific explanation.

Can any of you name something that only has a demonstrable supernatural cause for something we can't currently explain?

If you can't then why would you continue the path to being wrong with what we still don't know? There is no reason at all to think that what we currently don't know has anything to do with dieties.


Look, "Our Lady at Fatima" is an occurence that truly happened in 1917 Portuagal witnessed by over 70,000 people and you're telling me it's not true?...lol

I'll give you the 1st part and subsequent parts later for all to read. It will definitely have you pondering that's fo sho!

Our Lady at Fatima Part 1

On 13 May 1917, ten year old Lúcia Santos and her younger cousins, siblings Jacinta and Francisco Marto, were looking at sheep at a location known as the Cova da Iria near their home village of Fátima in Portugal. Lúcia described seeing a woman "brighter than the sun, shedding rays of light clearer and stronger than a crystal ball filled with the most sparkling water and pierced by the burning rays of the sun."[2] Further appearances are reported to have taken place on the thirteenth day of the month in June and July. In these, the woman exhorted the children to do penance and Acts of Reparation, and to make sacrifices to save sinners. The children subsequently wore tight cords around their waists to cause pain, performed self-flagellation using stinging nettles, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance and mortification of the flesh.[3] Most important, Lúcia said that the lady had asked them to pray the rosary every day, repeating many times that the rosary was the key to personal and world peace. This had particular resonance since many Portuguese men, including relatives of the visionaries, were then fighting in World War I.[2] According to Lúcia's account, in the course of her appearances, the woman confided to the children three secrets, now known as the Three Secrets of Fátima.

Thousands of people flocked to Fátima and Aljustrel in the ensuing months, drawn by reports of visions and miracles. On 13 August 1917, the provincial administrator and anticlerical Freemason,[4] Artur SantosHYPERLINK \l "cite_note-4"[5] (no relation to Lúcia Santos), believing that the events were politically disruptive, intercepted and jailed the children before they could reach the Cova da Iria that day. Prisoners held with them in the provincial jail later testified that the children, while upset, were first consoled by the inmates, and later led them in praying the rosary. The administrator interrogated the children and unsuccessfully attempted to get them to divulge the content of the secrets. In the process, he tried to convince the children that he would boil them one by one in a pot of oil unless they confessed. The children, however, resisted. That month, instead of the usual apparition in the Cova da Iria on the 13th, the children reported that they saw the Virgin Mary on 19 August at nearby Valinhos.[2]

 

 
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Posted: #1585

Correction: Look, "Our Lady at Fatima" is an occurence that truly happened in 1917 Portugal witnessed by over 70,000 people and you're telling me it's not true?...lol

 
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Posted: #1586

Our Lady at Fatima Part 2

Miracle of the Sun

Chapel of Apparitions, built at the place where the Fatima apparitions were reported

No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.[2] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon was visible from up to forty kilometers away. Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[12]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-12"[13]

Since no scientifically verifiable physical cause can be adduced to support the phenomenon of the sun, various explanations have been advanced to explain the descriptions given by numerous witnesses. A leading conjecture is a mass hallucination possibly stimulated by the religious fervor of the crowds expectantly waiting for a predicted sign. Another conjecture is a possible visual artifact caused by looking at the sun for a prolonged period. As noted by Professor Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven, looking directly at the Sun can cause phosphene visual artifacts and temporary partial blindness. He has proposed that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the colour changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[14] Meessen observes that sun miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where exactly the same optical effects as at Fatima were witnessed by more than 10,000 people.[14] There is, however, no agreement regarding the most likely physical cause for such a visual phenomenon. A mass hallucination is more typically found among small groups rather than 70,000 people. Visual artifacts are commonly reported among large groups witnessing solar eclipses without eye protection, but these reports bear no resemblance to the descriptions at Fatima. The alleged apparition at Heroldsbach, in Franconia, was investigated by the Catholic Church and was not approved.

There is also no evidence that people who came to Fatima, even those expecting a miracle, were staring at the sun before Lucia spoke. Most would have been focused on the tree where the children said the lady appeared. Phenomena including luminous mist and showers of flower petals had been reported by onlookers as occurring around and above the tree at previous visitations.

In addition to the Miracle of the Sun, the seers at Fatima indicated that the lady prophesied a great sign in the night sky which would precede a second great war.[15]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-The_Fatima_Secret-15"[16] On January 25, 1938, bright lights, an aurora borealis appeared all over the northern hemisphere, including in places as far south as north Africa, Bermuda and California.[15]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-The_Fatima_Secret-15"[16] It was the widest occurrence of the aurora since 1709[17] and people in Paris and elsewhere believed a great fire was burning and fire departments were called.[18] Lucia, the sole surviving seer at the time, indicated that it was the sign foretold and so apprised her superior and the bishop in letters the following day.[15]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-The_Fatima_Secret-15"[16] Just over a month later, Hitler seized Austria and eight months later invaded Czechoslovakia
 
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Posted: #1587

Our Lady at Fatima Part 3

Three Secrets of Fátima

First two secrets

The first secret was a vision of Hell, which Lúcia describes in her Third Memoir, as follows:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror."[19]

The second secret included Mary's instructions on how to save souls from Hell and convert the world to the Christian faith, also revealed by Lúcia in her Third Memoir:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."[20]
 
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Posted: #1588

Our Lady at Fatima Part 2

(Note: This shoul dhave been part 2...my apologies)

As early as July 1917 it was claimed that the Virgin Mary had promised a miracle for the last of her apparitions on 13 October, so that all would believe. What transpired became known as "Miracle of the Sun". A crowd believed to be approximately 70,000 in number,[6] including newspaper reporters and photographers, gathered at the Cova da Iria. The incessant rain had finally ceased and a thin layer of clouds cloaked the silver disc of the sun such that witnesses later said it could be looked upon without hurting the eyes.[citation needed] Lúcia, moved by what she said was an interior impulse, called out to the crowd to look at the sun. Witnesses later spoke of the sun appearing to change colors and rotate like a wheel. Not everyone saw the same things, and witnesses gave widely varying descriptions of the "sun's dance". The phenomenon is claimed to have been witnessed by most people in the crowd as well as people many miles away.[7] While the crowd was staring at the sun, Lucia, Francisco, and Jacinta said later they were seeing lovely images of the Holy Family, Our Lady of Sorrows with Jesus Christ, and then Our Lady of Mount Carmel. They said they saw Saint Joseph and Jesus bless the people.[8] The children were aged 10, 9, and 7 at the time.

Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal's most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical),[2] reported the following: "Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws - the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people."[9] Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem reported "The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat".[10] The special reporter for the 17 October 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, "...the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy purple light was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds...The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands...people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they."[11]

 
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Posted: #1589
goddamn SJD you are definitely the new cut and paste mindless drivel king now that richard is gone
 
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Posted: #1590
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Theories of what caused the big bang:

1. It came out of nothing
2. God
3. 2 universes collided in the multiverse
4. The universe eternally expands and contracts (although we're pretty sure this isn't the case)
5-infinity. Other theories yet to be made.

Purpose of this post: to disprove Rostos' claim that you are limited to 1 and 2

1) Is testable in this universe. Can comething come from nothing in this universe? You decide.

2. The most plausible. Why? As i have stated over 1 million times. At the birth of the universe, space, time and matter began to exist. Now, either space, time and matter created itself out of nothing, by nothing for nothing OR, something OUTSIDE of space, time and matter created space, time and matter. You decide.

3. Multiverses are purely a theory.

4. Oscilating universes are what is described as an impossibility and would indeed throw out everything we know about physics. even if it were true, where did the original matter come from?

5. You cant go an infinite regress.

YOU DECIDE

 
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Posted: #1591

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

It might have, that's part of Hawking's hypothesis.

Stephen Hawking is equivocating

The nothing he is talking about is NOT NOTHING philosophically.

Example, if i asked you to tell me, "what is time?" you can say to me, "it is a magazine". Well technically yes, but is that the philosophical answer? Just because he has a reputation before him, does he think he can trick everyone?

 
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Posted: #1592

Quote Originally Posted by MRGETRICH:




It also says that earth is fixed and can't be moved. It also says that snakes and donkeys can talk. It also says that the sun, all of the stars and the moon are fixed in the firmament, which is a crystal dome above the earth's atmosphere.

And of all beings God should know the difference between a circle, sphere, and a oblate spheroid.



The interpretation of this is that "cannot be moved from its course".

The bible while is the inspired word of God was still written by man. It is not perfect from the view than man is not perfect. God wanted it to be written via man.

If God wanted to write it, then i am sure he would have written it, but he didnt.

 
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Posted: #1593

Everyone has faith.

One looks at the evidence, signposts or data, then makes a decision based on that evidence or data.

When you are about to make a bet, you look at all data, look at matchups, past meeting s etc etc etc etc etc. Just because it happened in the past it does NOT mean 100% it is going to happen in the future. Or you may say the Cubs have beaten the Astros the last 10 times they met, i expect the opposite to happen here.

When you put your money on the game, you have faith that the players are gonna play it out based on your analysis otherwise you wouldnt have put your hard earned on it.

The fact is, when you bet, you dont have 100% material evidence that the outcome is gonna fall your way, but you still bet on it...

 
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Posted: #1594

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Rostos doesn't address the parts of the bible that don't fall in line with his beliefs. Those parts are "metaphors." Only the verses that seem to speak to reality are "prophecies."

I have explained this already.

How can you look at ALL parts of the bible literally?

Does God really want everyone to walk around with no right hand? yes or NO?

The bible is a collection of books (library).

When you go to the library, do you take the readings of the sci fi section the same as biographies section?

The bible is a collection of different types of books, facts, poetry, parables etc.

You are narrow minded to think if a book cant have parts that should be read differently.

It is no different to a library.

 
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Posted: #1595
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

1) Is testable in this universe. Can comething come from nothing in this universe? You decide.

Maybe. WE DON'T KNOW. It is a hypothesis that may never be proved, but requires more research and cannot be thrown out.

2. The most plausible. Why? As i have stated over 1 million times. At the birth of the universe, space, time and matter began to exist. Now, either space, time and matter created itself out of nothing, by nothing for nothing OR, something OUTSIDE of space, time and matter created space, time and matter. You decide.

Is by far the least plausible because it requires something that transcends reality, which we are not allowed to presume, but nonetheless a theory. However, it is the only theory IN EXISTENCE that can NEVER be tested. This alone renders it least plausible.

3. Multiverses are purely a theory.

No shit. I gave a list of theories, this is one of them.

4. Oscilating universes are what is described as an impossibility and would indeed throw out everything we know about physics. even if it were true, where did the original matter come from?

Likely true, but it is still possible that the universe is so far away from contracting that it is going to accelerate to a certain point, then begin to slow down, then contract. Possible. Probably the least likely of the realistic theories though. And in this case, the original matter was always there. That's what I would say ends the regress. You say god. Good for you. I choose not to say something that actually does exist always existed as opposed to something we can't see or prove.

5. You cant go an infinite regress.

That doesn't mean there isn't a scientist out there working on a new theory.

YOU DECIDE


And please don't start again with comparing probability to faith. And even if we play along, when I make a bet, I don't have "faith" that god will help me win my bet. My "faith" would be described as the fact that I HOPE I will win. When I drive to school, I don't have "faith" that god will get me there alive; my "faith" would be described as me believing that the odds of me dying are so low that it is worth making the trip.

And, for you mrgetrich, here is where we win this (obviously not in Rostos' eyes, but Rostos has provided us with proof that the bible is bullshit)

Rostos said and I quote "The interpretation of this is that "cannot be moved from its course"."

Key word: interpretation

My point: Rostos will interpret the words of the bible as they provide the most convenience. We can just as easily interpret the words to mean what you said mrgetrich, but Rostos chooses not to. The point is, just like with the vast majority of laws in the United States, there many ways to interpret the words. Very few words have absolute meanings and even fewer sentences. I'm sure I can go through Harry Potter books and find sentences that can be interpreted to describe things in the universe and things that happened after the books were written...but that would be confirmation bias, something Rostos is quite skilled at.
 
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Posted: #1596
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

I have explained this already.

How can you look at ALL parts of the bible literally?

Does God really want everyone to walk around with no right hand? yes or NO?

The bible is a collection of books (library).

When you go to the library, do you take the readings of the sci fi section the same as biographies section?

The bible is a collection of different types of books, facts, poetry, parables etc.

You are narrow minded to think if a book cant have parts that should be read differently.

It is no different to a library.


I'm within my right to interpret the entire bible as a metaphor. There is nothing persuading me not to.
 
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Posted: #1597
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:


And please don't start again with comparing probability to faith. And even if we play along, when I make a bet, I don't have "faith" that god will help me win my bet. My "faith" would be described as the fact that I HOPE I will win. When I drive to school, I don't have "faith" that god will get me there alive; my "faith" would be described as me believing that the odds of me dying are so low that it is worth making the trip.

And, for you mrgetrich, here is where we win this (obviously not in Rostos' eyes, but Rostos has provided us with proof that the bible is bullshit)

Rostos said and I quote "The interpretation of this is that "cannot be moved from its course"."

Key word: interpretation

My point: Rostos will interpret the words of the bible as they provide the most convenience. We can just as easily interpret the words to mean what you said mrgetrich, but Rostos chooses not to. The point is, just like with the vast majority of laws in the United States, there many ways to interpret the words. Very few words have absolute meanings and even fewer sentences. I'm sure I can go through Harry Potter books and find sentences that can be interpreted to describe things in the universe and things that happened after the books were written...but that would be confirmation bias, something Rostos is quite skilled at.

Point 2 is easily the most plausible.

The thing is, to understand it, you dont need a PHD is astronomy , philosophy etc. You just simply need a brain and common sense.

You are created, did you create yourself out of nothing? No

A dog, did it create itself out of nothing? No

The point is, everything that is created in this world, has a cause. The cause has to be something outside itself. Why is this impossible for you to accept? If you went to your physcologist and you told him that something can be created from absolutely nothing he will send you to the nearest mental hosptal.

I urge you, when you sleep tonight, ask yourself, can something come from absolutely nothing? by nothing? for nothing and result in what we see today by nothing more than an accident?

If you believe in that then there is nothing more i can say to you

 
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Posted: #1598
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:


I'm within my right to interpret the entire bible as a metaphor. There is nothing persuading me not to.

Free will

 
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Posted: #1599
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

The interpretation of this is that "cannot be moved from its course".

The bible while is the inspired word of God was still written by man. It is not perfect from the view than man is not perfect. God wanted it to be written via man.

If God wanted to write it, then i am sure he would have written it, but he didnt.



This is nothing but a baseless assertion. You have nothing at all to show that God inspired the bible. This is a very weak argument it's basically "because you said so"  is this the best you've got?
 
 
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Posted: #1600
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Look, "Our Lady at Fatima" is an occurence that truly happened in 1917 Portuagal witnessed by over 70,000 people and you're telling me it's not true?...lol

I'll give you the 1st part and subsequent parts later for all to read. It will definitely have you pondering that's fo sho!

Our Lady at Fatima Part 1

On 13 May 1917, ten year old Lúcia Santos and her younger cousins, siblings Jacinta and Francisco Marto, were looking at sheep at a location known as the Cova da Iria near their home village of Fátima in Portugal. Lúcia described seeing a woman "brighter than the sun, shedding rays of light clearer and stronger than a crystal ball filled with the most sparkling water and pierced by the burning rays of the sun."[2] Further appearances are reported to have taken place on the thirteenth day of the month in June and July. In these, the woman exhorted the children to do penance and Acts of Reparation, and to make sacrifices to save sinners. The children subsequently wore tight cords around their waists to cause pain, performed self-flagellation using stinging nettles, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and performed other works of penance and mortification of the flesh.[3] Most important, Lúcia said that the lady had asked them to pray the rosary every day, repeating many times that the rosary was the key to personal and world peace. This had particular resonance since many Portuguese men, including relatives of the visionaries, were then fighting in World War I.[2] According to Lúcia's account, in the course of her appearances, the woman confided to the children three secrets, now known as the Three Secrets of Fátima.

Thousands of people flocked to Fátima and Aljustrel in the ensuing months, drawn by reports of visions and miracles. On 13 August 1917, the provincial administrator and anticlerical Freemason,[4] Artur SantosHYPERLINK \l "cite_note-4"[5] (no relation to Lúcia Santos), believing that the events were politically disruptive, intercepted and jailed the children before they could reach the Cova da Iria that day. Prisoners held with them in the provincial jail later testified that the children, while upset, were first consoled by the inmates, and later led them in praying the rosary. The administrator interrogated the children and unsuccessfully attempted to get them to divulge the content of the secrets. In the process, he tried to convince the children that he would boil them one by one in a pot of oil unless they confessed. The children, however, resisted. That month, instead of the usual apparition in the Cova da Iria on the 13th, the children reported that they saw the Virgin Mary on 19 August at nearby Valinhos.[2]

 




Even if this nonsense was true, it's still fails to answer the question that i asked. Why is it that all of you have very poor reading comprehension skills?

I suppose there are no pictures or video recordings of this event? They knew it was going to happen and not one person took a camera?
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