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    All Forums | MLB Betting Forum

    Flat betting in Baseball....

    «First Previous 8910 ... 121314 Next Last»
    infmus02
    lawstyle
    lanastasis
    Dsn150
    cd329
    ...
    Participants:
    Search
    Views: 42489
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    «First Previous 8910 ... 121314 Next Last»
     
    infmus02
    infmus02
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:14 AM ET #176

    This thread is one of a kind.  Very interesting and i see where both points of view are coming from.  Lantasis ... i wouldn't recommend changing whats working for you.  I have my own formula that's worked for me for the past 3 years and haven't changed it since.  This formula of flat betting is a less risk method but like they said it doesn't guarantee profit.  I think if ur in betting just to have fun and enjoy watching the games more then why not flat bet.  If u want to profit then i believe u come up with ur own formula and if its working for you then hey...stick to it. 
    Reply
    This thread is one of a kind.  Very interesting and i see where both points of view are coming from.  Lantasis ... i wouldn't recommend changing whats working for you.  I have my own formula that's worked for me for the past 3 years and haven't changed it since.  This formula of flat betting is a less risk method but like they said it doesn't guarantee profit.  I think if ur in betting just to have fun and enjoy watching the games more then why not flat bet.  If u want to profit then i believe u come up with ur own formula and if its working for you then hey...stick to it. 
     
    lawstyle
    lawstyle
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:15 AM ET #177

    cd...  for the -130 fav, bet $113.04
    for the +160 dog, bet $76.92.
     
    I did this by using 100 as a unit size (or U), and -130 as odds. 
    Now make the odds positive, so -130 becomes 130.
     
    FOR A FAVORITE:  Bet Size = 2U/((100/ODDS) + 1)
    FOR AN UNDERDOG:  Bet Size = 2U/((ODDS/100) + 1))
     
    So, I did (2x100) divided by ((100/130) + 1), as the formula states.
     
    For the +160 dog, the Unit Size (or U) is still 100, and the odds are 160.
     
    So, I did 2x100  divided by (160/100 + 1)
     
    I know you asked not to use formulas, but that is the only way I know to do it.  Does that help?
     
     
    Reply
    cd...  for the -130 fav, bet $113.04
    for the +160 dog, bet $76.92.
     
    I did this by using 100 as a unit size (or U), and -130 as odds. 
    Now make the odds positive, so -130 becomes 130.
     
    FOR A FAVORITE:  Bet Size = 2U/((100/ODDS) + 1)
    FOR AN UNDERDOG:  Bet Size = 2U/((ODDS/100) + 1))
     
    So, I did (2x100) divided by ((100/130) + 1), as the formula states.
     
    For the +160 dog, the Unit Size (or U) is still 100, and the odds are 160.
     
    So, I did 2x100  divided by (160/100 + 1)
     
    I know you asked not to use formulas, but that is the only way I know to do it.  Does that help?
     
     
     
    lanastasis
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:18 AM ET #178

    Lawstyle, if my numbers are better because I bet slightly more dogs than favs, so be it, but I don't think this is the case. Do you have a formula I could use to find the average moneyline of games that I play? If so, I can tell you the answer immediately.

    However, doubling units used does not change anything. It's like multiplying both sides of an equation by 1: it doesn't change anything. Just to double check that I am not losing my mind, I doubled all the units risked for both methods and I am still netting more units using my method of risking 1 unit for all rather than flat betting.
    Reply
    Lawstyle, if my numbers are better because I bet slightly more dogs than favs, so be it, but I don't think this is the case. Do you have a formula I could use to find the average moneyline of games that I play? If so, I can tell you the answer immediately.

    However, doubling units used does not change anything. It's like multiplying both sides of an equation by 1: it doesn't change anything. Just to double check that I am not losing my mind, I doubled all the units risked for both methods and I am still netting more units using my method of risking 1 unit for all rather than flat betting.
     
    infmus02
    infmus02
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:22 AM ET #179

    law can u help me here ..   philly is -155 tomorrow and houston is +135 can u show me the profit with this system?  thx
    Reply
    law can u help me here ..   philly is -155 tomorrow and houston is +135 can u show me the profit with this system?  thx
     
    infmus02
    infmus02
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:23 AM ET #180

    Am i missing something or is this system only good when there is significant line movement? 
    Reply
    Am i missing something or is this system only good when there is significant line movement? 
     
    Dsn150
    Dsn150
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:23 AM ET #181

    Quote Originally Posted by infmus02:

    This thread is one of a kind.  Very interesting and i see where both points of view are coming from.  Lantasis ... i wouldn't recommend changing whats working for you.  I have my own formula that's worked for me for the past 3 years and haven't changed it since.  This formula of flat betting is a less risk method but like they said it doesn't guarantee profit.  I think if ur in betting just to have fun and enjoy watching the games more then why not flat bet.  If u want to profit then i believe u come up with ur own formula and if its working for you then hey...stick to it. 

    agreed, the best money management "system" results in failure if the picks don't come home
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by infmus02:

    This thread is one of a kind.  Very interesting and i see where both points of view are coming from.  Lantasis ... i wouldn't recommend changing whats working for you.  I have my own formula that's worked for me for the past 3 years and haven't changed it since.  This formula of flat betting is a less risk method but like they said it doesn't guarantee profit.  I think if ur in betting just to have fun and enjoy watching the games more then why not flat bet.  If u want to profit then i believe u come up with ur own formula and if its working for you then hey...stick to it. 

    agreed, the best money management "system" results in failure if the picks don't come home
     
    lawstyle
    lawstyle
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:25 AM ET #182

    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    Lawstyle, if my numbers are better because I bet slightly more dogs than favs, so be it, but I don't think this is the case. Do you have a formula I could use to find the average moneyline of games that I play? If so, I can tell you the answer immediately.

    However, doubling units used does not change anything. It's like multiplying both sides of an equation by 1: it doesn't change anything. Just to double check that I am not losing my mind, I doubled all the units risked for both methods and I am still netting more units using my method of risking 1 unit for all rather than flat betting.

     

    For the formula of the average moneylines you've played--  that's just all the moneylines added together, divided by the number of games, added to 100.

    And I didn't mean double the unit size for both methods (or on both sides of the equation).  I meant you would have to increase the unit size for flat betting until you had risked the same amount overall as with your method.  Right now, flat betting would have risked less.  If you increase it so that you risked the same amount with both methods, the results should be interesting, and less damning of flat betting...

     

    I'm going to sleep... good discussing  

     

    ps.  playing any dogs tomorrow? :)

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    Lawstyle, if my numbers are better because I bet slightly more dogs than favs, so be it, but I don't think this is the case. Do you have a formula I could use to find the average moneyline of games that I play? If so, I can tell you the answer immediately.

    However, doubling units used does not change anything. It's like multiplying both sides of an equation by 1: it doesn't change anything. Just to double check that I am not losing my mind, I doubled all the units risked for both methods and I am still netting more units using my method of risking 1 unit for all rather than flat betting.

     

    For the formula of the average moneylines you've played--  that's just all the moneylines added together, divided by the number of games, added to 100.

    And I didn't mean double the unit size for both methods (or on both sides of the equation).  I meant you would have to increase the unit size for flat betting until you had risked the same amount overall as with your method.  Right now, flat betting would have risked less.  If you increase it so that you risked the same amount with both methods, the results should be interesting, and less damning of flat betting...

     

    I'm going to sleep... good discussing  

     

    ps.  playing any dogs tomorrow? :)

     
    lawstyle
    lawstyle
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:27 AM ET #183

    Quote Originally Posted by infmus02:

    Am i missing something or is this system only good when there is significant line movement? 

     

    Hey man, I think you got the wrong idea... what I'm talking about is how much you should bet on any given pick, not what that given pick actually is.  (but I'm playing Houston... and I'm from Philly. Eaton's shaky)

     

    Peace

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by infmus02:

    Am i missing something or is this system only good when there is significant line movement? 

     

    Hey man, I think you got the wrong idea... what I'm talking about is how much you should bet on any given pick, not what that given pick actually is.  (but I'm playing Houston... and I'm from Philly. Eaton's shaky)

     

    Peace

     
    infmus02
    infmus02
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:30 AM ET #184

    lol ok
    Reply
    lol ok
     
    lanastasis
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:30 AM ET #185

    For the formula of the average moneylines you've played--  that's just all the moneylines added together, divided by the number of games, added to 100.

    Hold on -- don't go to sleep yet!   .... What do you mean by "added to 100"?

    I meant you would have to increase the unit size for flat betting until you had risked the same amount overall as with your method.  Right now, flat betting would have risked less.

    Oh OK, I get it. Well I'm not sure how I would uniformly add enough to each bet to equal what I risked doing it my way.
    Reply
    For the formula of the average moneylines you've played--  that's just all the moneylines added together, divided by the number of games, added to 100.

    Hold on -- don't go to sleep yet!   .... What do you mean by "added to 100"?

    I meant you would have to increase the unit size for flat betting until you had risked the same amount overall as with your method.  Right now, flat betting would have risked less.

    Oh OK, I get it. Well I'm not sure how I would uniformly add enough to each bet to equal what I risked doing it my way.
     
    lawstyle
    lawstyle
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:38 AM ET #186

    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    For the formula of the average moneylines you've played--  that's just all the moneylines added together, divided by the number of games, added to 100.

    Hold on -- don't go to sleep yet!   .... What do you mean by "added to 100"?

    I meant you would have to increase the unit size for flat betting until you had risked the same amount overall as with your method.  Right now, flat betting would have risked less.

    Oh OK, I get it. Well I'm not sure how I would uniformly add enough to each bet to equal what I risked doing it my way.

     

    Sorry, my mistake.  The formula is more complicated than that...  I think you'd have to average all ML favorites and dogs separately, then give each a weight depending on how many favorites or dogs were played, then multiply and reaverage... I'll figure it out tomorrow and post it.

     

    And yea, the second part is pretty much impossible to do, I have no idea how to work that.

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    For the formula of the average moneylines you've played--  that's just all the moneylines added together, divided by the number of games, added to 100.

    Hold on -- don't go to sleep yet!   .... What do you mean by "added to 100"?

    I meant you would have to increase the unit size for flat betting until you had risked the same amount overall as with your method.  Right now, flat betting would have risked less.

    Oh OK, I get it. Well I'm not sure how I would uniformly add enough to each bet to equal what I risked doing it my way.

     

    Sorry, my mistake.  The formula is more complicated than that...  I think you'd have to average all ML favorites and dogs separately, then give each a weight depending on how many favorites or dogs were played, then multiply and reaverage... I'll figure it out tomorrow and post it.

     

    And yea, the second part is pretty much impossible to do, I have no idea how to work that.

     
    lawstyle
    lawstyle
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:41 AM ET #187

    Oh wait... it's simpler than I thought.  Add 100 to favorites and subtract 100 from dogs, then average!  If the result is positive, add it to 100.  If it is negative, subract it from -100, and you have you ML average.
     
    So... +150, +130, -120:
    50 + 30 - 20 = 60
    60/3= 20
    100+20=120
    +120 is the average
    Reply
    Oh wait... it's simpler than I thought.  Add 100 to favorites and subtract 100 from dogs, then average!  If the result is positive, add it to 100.  If it is negative, subract it from -100, and you have you ML average.
     
    So... +150, +130, -120:
    50 + 30 - 20 = 60
    60/3= 20
    100+20=120
    +120 is the average
     
    lanastasis
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:44 AM ET #188

    Lawstyle, thanks. I would greatly appreciate you doing that for me. If you can't get it done, just let me know and I will see what i can do.

    Sorry for keeping you up. Get some rest and I will see you back in here sometime tomorrow.
    Reply
    Lawstyle, thanks. I would greatly appreciate you doing that for me. If you can't get it done, just let me know and I will see what i can do.

    Sorry for keeping you up. Get some rest and I will see you back in here sometime tomorrow.
     
    cd329
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:46 AM ET #189

    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

    cd...  for the -130 fav, bet $113.04
    for the +160 dog, bet $76.92.
     
    I did this by using 100 as a unit size (or U), and -130 as odds. 
    Now make the odds positive, so -130 becomes 130.
     
    FOR A FAVORITE:  Bet Size = 2U/((100/ODDS) + 1)
    FOR AN UNDERDOG:  Bet Size = 2U/((ODDS/100) + 1))
     
    So, I did (2x100) divided by ((100/130) + 1), as the formula states.
     
    For the +160 dog, the Unit Size (or U) is still 100, and the odds are 160.
     
    So, I did 2x100  divided by (160/100 + 1)
     
    I know you asked not to use formulas, but that is the only way I know to do it.  Does that help?
     
     

     

    Lawstyle, thank you very much for breaking it down for me, that helped a lot.

    thanks

    cd

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

    cd...  for the -130 fav, bet $113.04
    for the +160 dog, bet $76.92.
     
    I did this by using 100 as a unit size (or U), and -130 as odds. 
    Now make the odds positive, so -130 becomes 130.
     
    FOR A FAVORITE:  Bet Size = 2U/((100/ODDS) + 1)
    FOR AN UNDERDOG:  Bet Size = 2U/((ODDS/100) + 1))
     
    So, I did (2x100) divided by ((100/130) + 1), as the formula states.
     
    For the +160 dog, the Unit Size (or U) is still 100, and the odds are 160.
     
    So, I did 2x100  divided by (160/100 + 1)
     
    I know you asked not to use formulas, but that is the only way I know to do it.  Does that help?
     
     

     

    Lawstyle, thank you very much for breaking it down for me, that helped a lot.

    thanks

    cd

     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 2:47 AM ET #190

    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

    Oh wait... it's simpler than I thought.  Add 100 to favorites and subtract 100 from dogs, then average!  If the result is positive, add it to 100.  If it is negative, subract it from -100, and you have you ML average.
     
    So... +150, +130, -120:
    50 + 30 - 20 = 60
    60/3= 20
    100+20=120
    +120 is the average


    Dang, you're the man. Thanks. You don't have to stay up for it, but I'm going to crank out the numbers within the next 15 minutes. I hope I don't get something wacky.
    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

    Oh wait... it's simpler than I thought.  Add 100 to favorites and subtract 100 from dogs, then average!  If the result is positive, add it to 100.  If it is negative, subract it from -100, and you have you ML average.
     
    So... +150, +130, -120:
    50 + 30 - 20 = 60
    60/3= 20
    100+20=120
    +120 is the average


    Dang, you're the man. Thanks. You don't have to stay up for it, but I'm going to crank out the numbers within the next 15 minutes. I hope I don't get something wacky.
     
    thejudge1000
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:07 AM ET #191

    Well, THAT was the most productive half hour I've ever spent on Covers. 
     
    Really good info guys and a much clearer definition of Flat Betting for me.  Will be amending my own haphazard style to this one. 
     
    Nice gig - float around all day watching for arb opps!
     
    BOL All.    
    Reply
    Well, THAT was the most productive half hour I've ever spent on Covers. 
     
    Really good info guys and a much clearer definition of Flat Betting for me.  Will be amending my own haphazard style to this one. 
     
    Nice gig - float around all day watching for arb opps!
     
    BOL All.    
     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:16 AM ET #192

    OK, so here's the verdict Part. 2; I think ...

    late 2007 wagers: 262 wagers w/ an average of -10.068
    This makes my average moneyline -110, correct?

    2008 wagers: 53 wagers w/ an average of -4.063
    This makes my average moneyline -104 correct?

    OK, unless I misinterpreted your formula, I am, on average betting slight favs. which refutes the premise of this thread. If I messed up and my average moneylines are +110 and +104, then I suppose your argument has some legitimacy but with a heavy disclaimer that if someone leans even a little toward dogs, he is better off steering clear of flat betting.

    But I can't see how this is the case. Judging by your method to determine moneyline, lawstyle, I am definitely betting slight favs overall. I just doublechecked your math on this and it makes sense and my numbers come out slightly on the fav side. No offense, but this totally implodes the theory of flat betting. I want you you to prove me wrong, but that's where I'm at right now.
    Reply
    OK, so here's the verdict Part. 2; I think ...

    late 2007 wagers: 262 wagers w/ an average of -10.068
    This makes my average moneyline -110, correct?

    2008 wagers: 53 wagers w/ an average of -4.063
    This makes my average moneyline -104 correct?

    OK, unless I misinterpreted your formula, I am, on average betting slight favs. which refutes the premise of this thread. If I messed up and my average moneylines are +110 and +104, then I suppose your argument has some legitimacy but with a heavy disclaimer that if someone leans even a little toward dogs, he is better off steering clear of flat betting.

    But I can't see how this is the case. Judging by your method to determine moneyline, lawstyle, I am definitely betting slight favs overall. I just doublechecked your math on this and it makes sense and my numbers come out slightly on the fav side. No offense, but this totally implodes the theory of flat betting. I want you you to prove me wrong, but that's where I'm at right now.
     
    TheBigDaddy33
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:22 AM ET #193

    Lantasis - you're missing the point altogether I think.  It is POSSIBLE to win more money betting with a different strategy, that is obvious.

    All Vanzack is saying is that IF YOU WANT TO FLAT BET, then don't "bet to win" 1 unit.  He is trying to help people with the proper formula for flatbetting.

    If we move this to another sport, say basketball, and let's say you're getting -110 odds most of the time.  In a scenario where you go 2-2 or 3-3 on a day, you're breaking even instead of losing .2 or .3 units.

    So, for those that want to flat bet, these equations help. 


    Reply
    Lantasis - you're missing the point altogether I think.  It is POSSIBLE to win more money betting with a different strategy, that is obvious.

    All Vanzack is saying is that IF YOU WANT TO FLAT BET, then don't "bet to win" 1 unit.  He is trying to help people with the proper formula for flatbetting.

    If we move this to another sport, say basketball, and let's say you're getting -110 odds most of the time.  In a scenario where you go 2-2 or 3-3 on a day, you're breaking even instead of losing .2 or .3 units.

    So, for those that want to flat bet, these equations help. 


     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:28 AM ET #194

    How am I missing the point? First of all, I am not talking about always betting to win 1 unit. I am talking about "always risking 1 unit" vs. "flat betting as described in this thread."

    The flat bet supporters have stated it is a more profitable method than the alternative unless you are more successful at betting dogs than favs. So then I ran the test on my own results and found that the opposite is true as well. I bet, on average, slight favs and I make less money using flat betting rather than always risking 1 unit. So if flat betting is not good for dogs and now also (as I have proven) not good for favs, it is always less profitable than the alternative I have suggested.

    If I've done something wrong, I would like to know, but you have not pointed any such thing out.
    Reply
    How am I missing the point? First of all, I am not talking about always betting to win 1 unit. I am talking about "always risking 1 unit" vs. "flat betting as described in this thread."

    The flat bet supporters have stated it is a more profitable method than the alternative unless you are more successful at betting dogs than favs. So then I ran the test on my own results and found that the opposite is true as well. I bet, on average, slight favs and I make less money using flat betting rather than always risking 1 unit. So if flat betting is not good for dogs and now also (as I have proven) not good for favs, it is always less profitable than the alternative I have suggested.

    If I've done something wrong, I would like to know, but you have not pointed any such thing out.
     
    lawstyle
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:29 AM ET #195

    I couldn't sleep...  and I had a breakthrough, but I really don't have time to explain it now.
     
    A quick response to your post though-- this does not implode the theory at all.  What matters is which record is best at which average.  I think in your case there are too many numbers and variables to disprove or prove it, but think of it this way:
    If guy A bets 10$ a game, and guy B bets using flat betting with a 10 dollar unit size, take this scenario.
     
    Both bet on 4 games, of which the odds are -130, -120, +120, and +130.  Both A and B WIN all there games.  Profits for A are $41, and he risked 40$.  Profits for B are 40$, and he risked 40$.  So guy A is better off here.  BUT, assume one of the underdogs lost, take the +130 in this example.  Then, 40 was still risked, but for guy A, profits dropped 23 dollars (10+13), while guy B's profits only dropped 20 dollars.  Now bettor B is better off.
     
    Now, which is more likely?  The bettors win all 4, and both underdogs, or the bettors win 3 and lose the largest underdog?  Losing the largest underdog is more likely, of course.  Therefore, as  the averages move towards where they should be (underdogs hitting at 50% is closer to the average than 100%), the bettor using flat betting benefits.  This is to say, unless a bettor is winning an unusually high or low percentage on either dogs or favorites, flat betting is the most beneficial in the long run.
     
    The longer a bettor bets, the closer to the averages his numbers will go, and the more flat betting will pay off (if his picks win).
     
    The numbers are there man, try out some more scenarios.
    Reply
    I couldn't sleep...  and I had a breakthrough, but I really don't have time to explain it now.
     
    A quick response to your post though-- this does not implode the theory at all.  What matters is which record is best at which average.  I think in your case there are too many numbers and variables to disprove or prove it, but think of it this way:
    If guy A bets 10$ a game, and guy B bets using flat betting with a 10 dollar unit size, take this scenario.
     
    Both bet on 4 games, of which the odds are -130, -120, +120, and +130.  Both A and B WIN all there games.  Profits for A are $41, and he risked 40$.  Profits for B are 40$, and he risked 40$.  So guy A is better off here.  BUT, assume one of the underdogs lost, take the +130 in this example.  Then, 40 was still risked, but for guy A, profits dropped 23 dollars (10+13), while guy B's profits only dropped 20 dollars.  Now bettor B is better off.
     
    Now, which is more likely?  The bettors win all 4, and both underdogs, or the bettors win 3 and lose the largest underdog?  Losing the largest underdog is more likely, of course.  Therefore, as  the averages move towards where they should be (underdogs hitting at 50% is closer to the average than 100%), the bettor using flat betting benefits.  This is to say, unless a bettor is winning an unusually high or low percentage on either dogs or favorites, flat betting is the most beneficial in the long run.
     
    The longer a bettor bets, the closer to the averages his numbers will go, and the more flat betting will pay off (if his picks win).
     
    The numbers are there man, try out some more scenarios.
     
    SecondAgain
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:40 AM ET #196

    Quote Originally Posted by brendanb438:

    vanzack thank you for your posts as always.  Very good info for the people on these boards.

    Do you yourself flat bet?  I would guess no, probably use full Kelly or some sort of half Kelly system.

    Any chance of you posting daily baseball picks on the forum? 

    you would never bet full kelly, unless your determined probability is 100%, like toss of a coin or roll of a dice.

    And then it only determines how many bets you have in relationship to your bankroll, variance and confidence in your apporach which will determine your kelly fraction. Mine range from 1/8th to 1/20th

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by brendanb438:

    vanzack thank you for your posts as always.  Very good info for the people on these boards.

    Do you yourself flat bet?  I would guess no, probably use full Kelly or some sort of half Kelly system.

    Any chance of you posting daily baseball picks on the forum? 

    you would never bet full kelly, unless your determined probability is 100%, like toss of a coin or roll of a dice.

    And then it only determines how many bets you have in relationship to your bankroll, variance and confidence in your apporach which will determine your kelly fraction. Mine range from 1/8th to 1/20th

     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:41 AM ET #197

    Sweet, you're back!

    OK, I know what you are saying. I understood this premise explained a different way a number of times above. There came a point and time in this thread where I assumed you and Vanzack were correct and was going to complete my calculations merely to confirm your statements.

    But while your logic makes sense, it is not hashed out in practical reality, which for me, is my betting log. You would suggest that 315 wagers is a decently sized mathematical model, no? Of course, I would feel better if it was 3,115 instead, but this is what we have to work with. You would also say that my sample size eliminates much of the randomness from a mock experiment of 4 wagers, no? Assuming yes to these questions, then the math of my experiment is more valid than your example, no offense.

    I don't know, can you both be correct in theory while I am simultaneously correct in application? That's what it seems like we have here.

    I'm just wondering how you justify saying unequivocally that flat betting is more profitable betting more favs than dogs because I do just this but it is less profitable.

    Also, remember when you mentioned I am probably risking more units doing it my way than w/ flat betting? Well, I probably agree but this makes flat betting sound very hypocritical. The formulas you and Vanzack gave for flat betting were adjusted to work with a standard betting size of 1 unit and you argued that using this formula = more profits long term than always risking 1 unit instead. I have proven this is not necessarily true.

    Maybe this is an idea: Is there a way to tweak w/ the basic flatbetting formula to add more units risked per play to compensate for the disparity?

    Anyway, the bottom line is (and my head is starting to hurt from all this): Which method gains you more profits long term? And the answer (for the model I have given, which is decent sized and leans toward favorites) is that risking 1 unit is more profitable than flat betting.
    Reply
    Sweet, you're back!

    OK, I know what you are saying. I understood this premise explained a different way a number of times above. There came a point and time in this thread where I assumed you and Vanzack were correct and was going to complete my calculations merely to confirm your statements.

    But while your logic makes sense, it is not hashed out in practical reality, which for me, is my betting log. You would suggest that 315 wagers is a decently sized mathematical model, no? Of course, I would feel better if it was 3,115 instead, but this is what we have to work with. You would also say that my sample size eliminates much of the randomness from a mock experiment of 4 wagers, no? Assuming yes to these questions, then the math of my experiment is more valid than your example, no offense.

    I don't know, can you both be correct in theory while I am simultaneously correct in application? That's what it seems like we have here.

    I'm just wondering how you justify saying unequivocally that flat betting is more profitable betting more favs than dogs because I do just this but it is less profitable.

    Also, remember when you mentioned I am probably risking more units doing it my way than w/ flat betting? Well, I probably agree but this makes flat betting sound very hypocritical. The formulas you and Vanzack gave for flat betting were adjusted to work with a standard betting size of 1 unit and you argued that using this formula = more profits long term than always risking 1 unit instead. I have proven this is not necessarily true.

    Maybe this is an idea: Is there a way to tweak w/ the basic flatbetting formula to add more units risked per play to compensate for the disparity?

    Anyway, the bottom line is (and my head is starting to hurt from all this): Which method gains you more profits long term? And the answer (for the model I have given, which is decent sized and leans toward favorites) is that risking 1 unit is more profitable than flat betting.
     
    SecondAgain
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:50 AM ET #198

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadOverHeart:

    Vanzack, my point was flat-betting is risking the same amount of money on every single play regardless of odds.  $100 flat-betting is putting $100 on every game you play, whether they are +160 dogs or -170 favorites.

    What my example was trying to say to you was that when you bet based on the juice, 160 to win 100, 230 to win 100, etc., it limits you're ability to pull the trigger on favorites that have a great shot at winning.  Now, I am not just talking baseball here, where you need to take dogs on a regular basis, but all sport for flat-betting.

    For example, Chelsea v. Wigan today was Chelsea -500.  Now, a juice better would say, "no way in hell am I laying 500 to win 100.....too chalky."  A flat-better would say, "well, I am $100 flat on everything, and Chelsea won't lose this game, have about a 95% chance of winning, here is $100 to win $20 (or $1000 to win $200, whatever the flat bet is)."

    Bang........if you win, 95% chance of doing so, you're golden with a little extra dosh.  If you happen to lose on a shocker, you are only down one flat-bet amount.

    That was my point and why flat-betters generally come out ahead in the long-run......one less variable to worry about.

    the first thing you have learn is the concept of value. Who cares if the line is -500? If the true price is -600 its a bet. If you can get the probability of the game correct more times then the market you shouldn't flat betting, but using kelly.

    Reply

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadOverHeart:

    Vanzack, my point was flat-betting is risking the same amount of money on every single play regardless of odds.  $100 flat-betting is putting $100 on every game you play, whether they are +160 dogs or -170 favorites.

    What my example was trying to say to you was that when you bet based on the juice, 160 to win 100, 230 to win 100, etc., it limits you're ability to pull the trigger on favorites that have a great shot at winning.  Now, I am not just talking baseball here, where you need to take dogs on a regular basis, but all sport for flat-betting.

    For example, Chelsea v. Wigan today was Chelsea -500.  Now, a juice better would say, "no way in hell am I laying 500 to win 100.....too chalky."  A flat-better would say, "well, I am $100 flat on everything, and Chelsea won't lose this game, have about a 95% chance of winning, here is $100 to win $20 (or $1000 to win $200, whatever the flat bet is)."

    Bang........if you win, 95% chance of doing so, you're golden with a little extra dosh.  If you happen to lose on a shocker, you are only down one flat-bet amount.

    That was my point and why flat-betters generally come out ahead in the long-run......one less variable to worry about.

    the first thing you have learn is the concept of value. Who cares if the line is -500? If the true price is -600 its a bet. If you can get the probability of the game correct more times then the market you shouldn't flat betting, but using kelly.

     
    SecondAgain
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:54 AM ET #199

    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    really good thread and interesting but most sharps ONLY bet dogs in baseball

    Flat-out wrong. Squares who think they are sharps only bet dogs in baseball.

    I know a great number of sharps and they only bet dogs

    Reply
    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    really good thread and interesting but most sharps ONLY bet dogs in baseball

    Flat-out wrong. Squares who think they are sharps only bet dogs in baseball.

    I know a great number of sharps and they only bet dogs

     
     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 15, 2008 - 3:56 AM ET #200

    I know a great number of sharps and they only bet dogs

    A) I would argue they are in the minority for sharps overall.
    B) I would argue their capping is lacking since they cannot spot the value in lines where favorites are being undervalued.


    Reply
    I know a great number of sharps and they only bet dogs

    A) I would argue they are in the minority for sharps overall.
    B) I would argue their capping is lacking since they cannot spot the value in lines where favorites are being undervalued.


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