Look I think we can all first guess Hinch's decision to putting Harris in the game but do we all agree pulling Grienke at 80 pitches and a runner on 1st one out was a good move? What does the book say there? Grienke had been cruising through a 2 hitter on Rendon's home run. Does anyone else think this was a panic move by a manager who's sole title came off one of the biggest postseason dopes ever? Can you really fault Grienke for his last two batters when Rendon had been taking all season? Or when Soto gets walked when the plan all along was to pitch Soto carefully less you end up with a tie game? IMHO Grienke makes it through the inning if he is allowed to continue. This Astros bullpen has shown themselves to be a weak spot for this team all October. I truly and honestly believe if Hinch had had the guts of a Bochy you either leave your horse Grienke in the game to finish the inning or you give the ball to Cole and say this is your game big boy, carry us to the promised land. No we are not going with Osuna in the 9th. We will take our chances and live or die with the best in the game. That's what makes a great manager. And that is the difference between winning and losing.
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To remove first post, remove entire topic.
Look I think we can all first guess Hinch's decision to putting Harris in the game but do we all agree pulling Grienke at 80 pitches and a runner on 1st one out was a good move? What does the book say there? Grienke had been cruising through a 2 hitter on Rendon's home run. Does anyone else think this was a panic move by a manager who's sole title came off one of the biggest postseason dopes ever? Can you really fault Grienke for his last two batters when Rendon had been taking all season? Or when Soto gets walked when the plan all along was to pitch Soto carefully less you end up with a tie game? IMHO Grienke makes it through the inning if he is allowed to continue. This Astros bullpen has shown themselves to be a weak spot for this team all October. I truly and honestly believe if Hinch had had the guts of a Bochy you either leave your horse Grienke in the game to finish the inning or you give the ball to Cole and say this is your game big boy, carry us to the promised land. No we are not going with Osuna in the 9th. We will take our chances and live or die with the best in the game. That's what makes a great manager. And that is the difference between winning and losing.
"I wanted to pull him a batter early rather than a batter too late"
100% analytic driven B*LL SH*T right there, and he bought in a while ago unfortunately.
Maybe during the season you can run this strategy to preserve a guy's arm. Not in game 7 of the WS. There's literally no tomorrow after a game 7, he out thought himself.
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AJ Hinch in post game interview...
"I wanted to pull him a batter early rather than a batter too late"
100% analytic driven B*LL SH*T right there, and he bought in a while ago unfortunately.
Maybe during the season you can run this strategy to preserve a guy's arm. Not in game 7 of the WS. There's literally no tomorrow after a game 7, he out thought himself.
He didn't trust Greinke plain and simple. Even tho he's had good numbers against the Nats, anyone outside of Verlander and Cole he just felt were suspect.
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He didn't trust Greinke plain and simple. Even tho he's had good numbers against the Nats, anyone outside of Verlander and Cole he just felt were suspect.
"I wanted to pull him a batter early rather than a batter too late"
100% analytic driven B*LL SH*T right there, and he bought in a while ago unfortunately.
Maybe during the season you can run this strategy to preserve a guy's arm. Not in game 7 of the WS. There's literally no tomorrow after a game 7, he out thought himself.
He could never really answer the question as to why have Cole warm-up and don't put him in instead of Harris. He said he wanted to use him if it were tied or had the lead??? Idiot you had the lead. I just feel anyone could be a dumb manager
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Quote Originally Posted by undermysac:
AJ Hinch in post game interview...
"I wanted to pull him a batter early rather than a batter too late"
100% analytic driven B*LL SH*T right there, and he bought in a while ago unfortunately.
Maybe during the season you can run this strategy to preserve a guy's arm. Not in game 7 of the WS. There's literally no tomorrow after a game 7, he out thought himself.
He could never really answer the question as to why have Cole warm-up and don't put him in instead of Harris. He said he wanted to use him if it were tied or had the lead??? Idiot you had the lead. I just feel anyone could be a dumb manager
Verlander was suspect all postseason, Hinch's faith in Verlander borders on Dave Robert's obsession with Kershaw. Now that I have more time to think could the 5th inning of game 3 have played a major part in Hinch's thinking? Grienke got into trouble with a 2nd & 3rd 2 out jam and Hinch did not even hesitate to lift him 1 out from a potential victory.
There's a really good article on the ringer right here that analyses Hinch's decision making.
Basically the gist of it was that pulling Grienke and putting in Harris, while questionable were at least defendable but leaving Cole on the bench for the final 2 innings was unconscionable.
I disagree completely. All 3 decisions were unconscionable and the game was over once Kendrick's ball hit the foul pole. Sure Hou had 3 innings left but there has been nothing the past 2 seasons that has shown me they could dust themselves off the mat and stage a comeback. This was a front running team for 2 years that had lost the late stage magic of 17' that made that title so exciting and memorable. This team felt more like a collection of exquisite talent than a cohesive unit. They were the hunted overdogs for 2 seasons now and it seems the stress of it overwhelmed them.
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Verlander was suspect all postseason, Hinch's faith in Verlander borders on Dave Robert's obsession with Kershaw. Now that I have more time to think could the 5th inning of game 3 have played a major part in Hinch's thinking? Grienke got into trouble with a 2nd & 3rd 2 out jam and Hinch did not even hesitate to lift him 1 out from a potential victory.
There's a really good article on the ringer right here that analyses Hinch's decision making.
Basically the gist of it was that pulling Grienke and putting in Harris, while questionable were at least defendable but leaving Cole on the bench for the final 2 innings was unconscionable.
I disagree completely. All 3 decisions were unconscionable and the game was over once Kendrick's ball hit the foul pole. Sure Hou had 3 innings left but there has been nothing the past 2 seasons that has shown me they could dust themselves off the mat and stage a comeback. This was a front running team for 2 years that had lost the late stage magic of 17' that made that title so exciting and memorable. This team felt more like a collection of exquisite talent than a cohesive unit. They were the hunted overdogs for 2 seasons now and it seems the stress of it overwhelmed them.
Have always liked Greinke. He's a class act. Disappointing to see him rise to the occasion and then have Hinch walk out to the mound, pointing to the bullpen, when he didn't pitch an absolutely perfect game. I didn't see anyone in the dugout talking to Hinch after that, a dugout that looked like a house of cards at that point. Nationals exploited that mistake and earned DC their 3rd major league sports title since 2016-17. Have fun with that fact, conspiracy theorists.
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Have always liked Greinke. He's a class act. Disappointing to see him rise to the occasion and then have Hinch walk out to the mound, pointing to the bullpen, when he didn't pitch an absolutely perfect game. I didn't see anyone in the dugout talking to Hinch after that, a dugout that looked like a house of cards at that point. Nationals exploited that mistake and earned DC their 3rd major league sports title since 2016-17. Have fun with that fact, conspiracy theorists.
I think that many managers get hung up on - this is the third time through the batting order vice what the pitcher has in the tank.... in this case the manager went with analytics and it proved wrong. I would have had a conversation with greinke and at least have a moment of pause.
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I think that many managers get hung up on - this is the third time through the batting order vice what the pitcher has in the tank.... in this case the manager went with analytics and it proved wrong. I would have had a conversation with greinke and at least have a moment of pause.
In a small defense analytics works with certain pitchers. I would have pulled Verlander an inning before the game winning Homer's, first bc at 98 he didn't have much left and 2nd he was struggling all game and didn't like his chances vs the top of the lineup for a 3rd time. That top 4 is no joke and so much more lethal than Hou's top 4. They needed to be worked with caution.
But Grienke wasn't looking at any of them. He was looking at Kendricks who had been in a 2 - 12 slump beforehand and was beatable. The bottom of that order was beatable.
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In a small defense analytics works with certain pitchers. I would have pulled Verlander an inning before the game winning Homer's, first bc at 98 he didn't have much left and 2nd he was struggling all game and didn't like his chances vs the top of the lineup for a 3rd time. That top 4 is no joke and so much more lethal than Hou's top 4. They needed to be worked with caution.
But Grienke wasn't looking at any of them. He was looking at Kendricks who had been in a 2 - 12 slump beforehand and was beatable. The bottom of that order was beatable.
Gerrit Cole is almost certain to leave Houston for another team next year, and in the final few innings of game 7 he wasn't used.
Last year the Stros let Charlie Morton go. This year Cole was #3 in FIP, Morton was #5. Those are top dog pitchers who can be #1 rotation guys on any team.
What's Greinke's plan for 2020. Was he just a rental this year? I'm not sure on his contract situation so anyone please correct me. Greinke was 11th in FIP. If he's gone, those are 3 HUGE starting arms that the Stros need to replace in the last 2 years.
Wade Miley was a real good #4 for the Stros all year. On a team of lesser talent he could of arguably been a #2 and definitely a #3 in most rotations. Then why did the Stros leave him off the WS roster when they had no lefty's in the pen? How's he feeling right now? Would you want to come back in 2020 to play for them?
Lastly, that leaves us with JV. Upmost respect for the man, he's truly great. But did you know that at 38 years old he threw the most innings in the mlb this year? How long can his fountain of youth last? Especially when you make a living throwing high heat.
Pitching wise, the 2020 Stros are going to have a lot of young faces. Luckily for them their pitching coach is great but young guys need time to develope.
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Good thread.
How's this after thought?
Gerrit Cole is almost certain to leave Houston for another team next year, and in the final few innings of game 7 he wasn't used.
Last year the Stros let Charlie Morton go. This year Cole was #3 in FIP, Morton was #5. Those are top dog pitchers who can be #1 rotation guys on any team.
What's Greinke's plan for 2020. Was he just a rental this year? I'm not sure on his contract situation so anyone please correct me. Greinke was 11th in FIP. If he's gone, those are 3 HUGE starting arms that the Stros need to replace in the last 2 years.
Wade Miley was a real good #4 for the Stros all year. On a team of lesser talent he could of arguably been a #2 and definitely a #3 in most rotations. Then why did the Stros leave him off the WS roster when they had no lefty's in the pen? How's he feeling right now? Would you want to come back in 2020 to play for them?
Lastly, that leaves us with JV. Upmost respect for the man, he's truly great. But did you know that at 38 years old he threw the most innings in the mlb this year? How long can his fountain of youth last? Especially when you make a living throwing high heat.
Pitching wise, the 2020 Stros are going to have a lot of young faces. Luckily for them their pitching coach is great but young guys need time to develope.
How many times this postseason did Cole face a runner on 3rd one out situation? Feels like every time but I count 3 such instances and in a scenario where the runner scores over 60 % of the time Cole got out of the inning unscathed. The problem seems to be Hinch did not realize what a special weapon Cole was and to a certain extent what guts Grienke had. This guy gave every blood, sweat and toil for a hard earned ring after such a remarkable career from phenom to flameout to mental illness to a demotion to a reliever to becoming the highest paid pitcher ever and borderline HOF. This dude has done it all and to take away his last real chance at a ring over a long ball from the other side's best player and a walk to their 2nd best player after the AB was ruined by another in a long line of ridiculous calls on the 2 - 1 strike to Soto. Man I'm sure to a man every player respects Hinch but how can this team come back and look this man in the eyes knowing he had no trust in his two big studs?
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How many times this postseason did Cole face a runner on 3rd one out situation? Feels like every time but I count 3 such instances and in a scenario where the runner scores over 60 % of the time Cole got out of the inning unscathed. The problem seems to be Hinch did not realize what a special weapon Cole was and to a certain extent what guts Grienke had. This guy gave every blood, sweat and toil for a hard earned ring after such a remarkable career from phenom to flameout to mental illness to a demotion to a reliever to becoming the highest paid pitcher ever and borderline HOF. This dude has done it all and to take away his last real chance at a ring over a long ball from the other side's best player and a walk to their 2nd best player after the AB was ruined by another in a long line of ridiculous calls on the 2 - 1 strike to Soto. Man I'm sure to a man every player respects Hinch but how can this team come back and look this man in the eyes knowing he had no trust in his two big studs?
Good thread.How's this after thought?Gerrit Cole is almost certain to leave Houston for another team next year, and in the final few innings of game 7 he wasn't used.Last year the Stros let Charlie Morton go. This year Cole was #3 in FIP, Morton was #5. Those are top dog pitchers who can be #1 rotation guys on any team.What's Greinke's plan for 2020. Was he just a rental this year? I'm not sure on his contract situation so anyone please correct me. Greinke was 11th in FIP. If he's gone, those are 3 HUGE starting arms that the Stros need to replace in the last 2 years.Wade Miley was a real good #4 for the Stros all year. On a team of lesser talent he could of arguably been a #2 and definitely a #3 in most rotations. Then why did the Stros leave him off the WS roster when they had no lefty's in the pen? How's he feeling right now? Would you want to come back in 2020 to play for them?Lastly, that leaves us with JV. Upmost respect for the man, he's truly great. But did you know that at 38 years old he threw the most innings in the mlb this year? How long can his fountain of youth last? Especially when you make a living throwing high heat.Pitching wise, the 2020 Stros are going to have a lot of young faces. Luckily for them their pitching coach is great but young guys need time to develope.
Greinke is under contract for another 2 years with the Astros and AZ is paying close to $20 million of his salary next 2 seasons.. Insurance policy for the Astros for Cole leaving.. Astros knew the could not afford Cole anyhow..... Astros will be fine with Verlander/Greinke/Peacock/Urquidy...and they most likely trade for a starter at trade deadline if need be..
Mayweather bet 450000 on
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Quote Originally Posted by undermysac:
Good thread.How's this after thought?Gerrit Cole is almost certain to leave Houston for another team next year, and in the final few innings of game 7 he wasn't used.Last year the Stros let Charlie Morton go. This year Cole was #3 in FIP, Morton was #5. Those are top dog pitchers who can be #1 rotation guys on any team.What's Greinke's plan for 2020. Was he just a rental this year? I'm not sure on his contract situation so anyone please correct me. Greinke was 11th in FIP. If he's gone, those are 3 HUGE starting arms that the Stros need to replace in the last 2 years.Wade Miley was a real good #4 for the Stros all year. On a team of lesser talent he could of arguably been a #2 and definitely a #3 in most rotations. Then why did the Stros leave him off the WS roster when they had no lefty's in the pen? How's he feeling right now? Would you want to come back in 2020 to play for them?Lastly, that leaves us with JV. Upmost respect for the man, he's truly great. But did you know that at 38 years old he threw the most innings in the mlb this year? How long can his fountain of youth last? Especially when you make a living throwing high heat.Pitching wise, the 2020 Stros are going to have a lot of young faces. Luckily for them their pitching coach is great but young guys need time to develope.
Greinke is under contract for another 2 years with the Astros and AZ is paying close to $20 million of his salary next 2 seasons.. Insurance policy for the Astros for Cole leaving.. Astros knew the could not afford Cole anyhow..... Astros will be fine with Verlander/Greinke/Peacock/Urquidy...and they most likely trade for a starter at trade deadline if need be..
Cole gave up 8 runs prior in 2 games...he is hardly "lights out". Harris had given up ____1____ run prior. He didnt even really throw a bad pitch to Kendrick. Low and in(on a righty) and taking it for a HR to right is unusual. Harris is human and batters will get you sometimes NO MATTER WHAT. I've seen Altuve homer off a fastball at eye level before. THE DIFFERENCE IS: being a starting pitcher you automatically have 3 bases open each inning. Coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down and even DESPITE THAT, Harris kept his ERA under Cole's...
really? how is it tougher? you aren't credited with the runners on base when you come in. People like you are why I don't frequent these forums any longer. And Cole is a starter, he faces everyone in the lineup multiple times, not just middle of the line up or end of line up for one inning.
"coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down", are you fricking serious??!!!! Moron.
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Quote Originally Posted by Qwan61:
Cole gave up 8 runs prior in 2 games...he is hardly "lights out". Harris had given up ____1____ run prior. He didnt even really throw a bad pitch to Kendrick. Low and in(on a righty) and taking it for a HR to right is unusual. Harris is human and batters will get you sometimes NO MATTER WHAT. I've seen Altuve homer off a fastball at eye level before. THE DIFFERENCE IS: being a starting pitcher you automatically have 3 bases open each inning. Coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down and even DESPITE THAT, Harris kept his ERA under Cole's...
really? how is it tougher? you aren't credited with the runners on base when you come in. People like you are why I don't frequent these forums any longer. And Cole is a starter, he faces everyone in the lineup multiple times, not just middle of the line up or end of line up for one inning.
"coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down", are you fricking serious??!!!! Moron.
Cole gave up 8 runs prior in 2 games...he is hardly "lights out". Harris had given up ____1____ run prior. He didnt even really throw a bad pitch to Kendrick. Low and in(on a righty) and taking it for a HR to right is unusual. Harris is human and batters will get you sometimes NO MATTER WHAT. I've seen Altuve homer off a fastball at eye level before. THE DIFFERENCE IS: being a starting pitcher you automatically have 3 bases open each inning. Coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down and even DESPITE THAT, Harris kept his ERA under Cole's...
really? how is it tougher? you aren't credited with the runners on base when you come in. People like you are why I don't frequent these forums any longer. And Cole is a starter, he faces everyone in the lineup multiple times, not just middle of the line up or end of line up for one inning. "coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down", are you fricking serious??!!!! Moron.
I won the bet dipsh!t...who's the moron?
This is probably the first bet of your life or watching MLB but explaining it to you further:
If you hadn't NOTICED the starting pitchers in almost every game this post season were getting rocked early.
As a reliever you have to be on top of your game immediately.
Harris entered many times with runners in scoring position and absolutely was lights out immediately as their was no room for error.
We have NO PROOF OF ___ANY___ KIND of Cole being effective out of the BP!!!
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Quote Originally Posted by cmo1037:
Quote Originally Posted by Qwan61:
Cole gave up 8 runs prior in 2 games...he is hardly "lights out". Harris had given up ____1____ run prior. He didnt even really throw a bad pitch to Kendrick. Low and in(on a righty) and taking it for a HR to right is unusual. Harris is human and batters will get you sometimes NO MATTER WHAT. I've seen Altuve homer off a fastball at eye level before. THE DIFFERENCE IS: being a starting pitcher you automatically have 3 bases open each inning. Coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down and even DESPITE THAT, Harris kept his ERA under Cole's...
really? how is it tougher? you aren't credited with the runners on base when you come in. People like you are why I don't frequent these forums any longer. And Cole is a starter, he faces everyone in the lineup multiple times, not just middle of the line up or end of line up for one inning. "coming in as a reliever is a whole different story and waaaay tougher to keep your ERA down", are you fricking serious??!!!! Moron.
I won the bet dipsh!t...who's the moron?
This is probably the first bet of your life or watching MLB but explaining it to you further:
If you hadn't NOTICED the starting pitchers in almost every game this post season were getting rocked early.
As a reliever you have to be on top of your game immediately.
Harris entered many times with runners in scoring position and absolutely was lights out immediately as their was no room for error.
We have NO PROOF OF ___ANY___ KIND of Cole being effective out of the BP!!!
Greinke is usually good to about 95 pitches and he was playing on 4 days his best rest. I would have talked to him and then left him in. Cole would have been a reasonable alternative. By the way I have stated many times that Hinch is an idiot
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Greinke is usually good to about 95 pitches and he was playing on 4 days his best rest. I would have talked to him and then left him in. Cole would have been a reasonable alternative. By the way I have stated many times that Hinch is an idiot
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