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Ben Simmons Hype or Reality?

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Posted: #1
Ive gotten into back and forth conversations on here, specifically with some homers about Ben Simmons and the realities and so far against A WELL COACHED TEAM, the realities are outweighing the hype with this kid. Anybody who knows basketball could see this coming. Is he tall? Yep. Are tall players supposed to rebound? Yep. Can he pass and spread the court? Yep. Can he shoot? NOPE. Yet.....to some, this guy apparently is a transcendent player that will lead the nba into the next chapter? Let’s pump the breaks folks. IVE SAID THIS BEFORE and i will say it now:  In this league.....if you do not have a jump shot, you will not make it. We’ll wait: let’s restate that: if you are classified as the next coming and are apparently going to win the rookie of the year, you better get a jump shot quick because you will get exposed. We are seeing that right now with Brad Stevens and the Celtics folks. If people want to use the regular season as their baseline and then jump to conclusions on how Simmons dominated the weakest team in the first round and say Simmons is this game changing phenom, please explain these last two games because going forward, with this on display, teams will follow suit in making him make a jump shot. 

You’d think after sitting out an entire year the kid would have worked on a jump shot? Nope. You’d think the kid would fine tune the most important part of ones nba game? Nope. He sat, the hype built up and as we’ve seen recently, he is getting exposed. Imo, this kid is entitled, he’s a brat and he doesn’t have an ounce of what Mitchell and Tatum have as true rookies. He wants the jets to the kingdom now but isn’t willing to work it. It’s year two and I could be wrong but I don’t see anything special here. Watching him get nervous when the shot clock is down knowing that may have to take a jump shot is almos hard to watch. Some say he knows his range and that he doesn’t need to settle for jump shots? Really? This is the next coming type mentality? Could he better than both Tatum and Mitchell? Maybe. What Tatum and Mitchell are doing though is far more impressive that Ben Simmons sitting out almost the entire fourth quarter in a close playoff game. Who was in for Simmons? TJ MCCONNELL. Yes....TJ MCCONNELL. Listen, I hope Simmons gets the wake up call because I do want to see the kid get better but when so many sit there and tell me he’s better than Donovan Mitchell I ask myself two questions: 1. Are those people high? 2. Where do they buy their “stuff”? We will see first hand what Ben Simmons is about in the next few games and if he plays well, hits some JUMP SHOTS, then I will be the first to say good stuff Ben. To simply crown this Philly team though and say they are already the East reps this year? Really? I’m not denouncing Ben Simmons and his potential. It’s endless. What I’m challenging is that this kid has A TON OF WORK TO DO ON THAT JUMPER for him to be a top tier player in the NBA going forward. Teams will adjust so he better adjust as well. Work on your jump shot Ben. Thanks.
 
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Posted: #2
the true intent of the post above is to silence the “Ben Simmons is better than Donovan Mitchell” talks. To me it’s not close. Just put the take on when the games matter most and Mitchell looks like the better player. Plain and simple. H@ll, is have to think long and hard as to who I’d rather take between Tatum and Simmons. 
 
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Posted: #3
He has more than jump shot problem
 
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Posted: #4

I agree you gotta give Mitchell the ROTY at this point. I think the only real argument for simmons backers was the fact that Mitchell wasnt the best passer in the regular season but people need to understand that Rubio was the true pg on that team while Mitchell was more of a 2. Looking at the last 2 games you can obviously see Mitchells ability to get the ball to his teammates, hes the clear cut winner in my book idc if he wins or not 

 
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Posted: #5

You said one thing I agree with.

"I could be wrong."

You do realize he is a rookie. Sure, he's a "redshirt" rookie but he's a rookie none the less. There have been plenty of rookies that can shoot. I can remember a rookie who after one year at Syracuse, and a National Title, entered the league. He was 6'88". He was a pure scorer. And boy could he shoot. His name was Carmelo Anthony.

What makes Ben Simmons special is the fact that he's a 6'10+ point guard with freakish court vision coupled with an innate ability to distribute the ball. It's he same thing that made a young Magic Johnson special, who could not shoot. It's the same thing that made a young Lebron James special, who could not shoot. I get it that in today's league everyone is in love with jumpshots but there are other parts of the game. I'll take a 6'10" Magic Johnson level true point, who can facilitate, rebound, and has the defensive upside of being a 6'10" guard, any day. Especially in a league who's recent love affair with shooting can only be matched by it's recent love affair with height and length, i'll take the guy who has the one you can't teach.

Look, if the true intention of this thread is to say Donovan Mitchell and Jason Tatum have emerged as better rookies, I won't argue. Now if you're really trying to argue that Simmons is all hype because he doesn't have a jumpshot then i'll say you're crazy. You're just a prisoner of the moment.

And a sidenote on Mitchell and Tatum. Not enough can be said for the teams they are on and the coaches of said teams. I'm sick and tired of hearing talking heads say, "the Cleveland Browns passed up on Carson Wentz", as if Wentz would have been Wentz on the Browns. Tatum and Mitchell both went to teams who were in the playoffs last year, who have top 5 coaches, and perfect mixes of young and veteran talent. Simmons went to a rebuilding "process" which is essentially him, Embiid, and shooters. And they're in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Let's wait or so before we say he's "hype".

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Posted: #6

I would say Ben Simmons can shoot if you want fg%'s. He cant shoot 3's and doesnt attempt them. I dont care whether he develops a 20 foot jumper or not as long as he can shoot a 54% clip...I'm ok with that and with good reason because the greats before him didnt do much better.

 

Comparing his fg% with some greats before his time.

 

Shaq shooting almost everything with 5 feet comes in at: 58.2%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

 

Chamberlain who probably dunked most of his shots comes in shooting 54%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html

 

Jordan probably one of the best jump shooters ever at 49.7%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

 

Jabaar...everything close with no contested sky hooks comes in at 55.9%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

 

Karl Malone....51.6%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

 

and Ben Simmons who "cant" shoot comes in at: 54.5%

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

 

 
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Posted: #7
The true intent of this thread is two things: 

1. 100% Donovan Mitchell is the better player. He’s a true rookie too..... He is more polished. He’s cuttthroat in crunch time and he at least takes big shots and wants the ball in his hands. He has put uo historic numbers so far too, numbers Simmons can’t sniff IN BIG GAMES. Isn’t that what matters most? A guy who can control a game and take over a game? People want to talk stats and it gets a bit old. Look at Simmons’ supporting cast. Reddick, Saric, Covington, Bellinelli....all these guys can shoot and they spread the floor. Then there in Embiid and with all this, why wouldn’t we expect assist nunbers that Simmons is putting up? Imagine if Mitchell had that supporting cast. It would be ridiculous. Court vision is great but I will take a guy who get whatever shot he wants whenever he wants. That’s Mitchell. 

2. I don’t doubt that Simmons can be a top tier player but the hype outweighs the actual reality here. If Ben Simmons had a jump shot folks, Philly would be unstoppable. Why? Because look at games 1 and 2. When the opponent knows 100% you don’t have the confidence in your jump shot because you don’t have a jump shot, it devalues your worth. If Simmons is good because he can pass and rebound, should that trump a guy who can DO IT ALL? I’m not Tatum is better but the guy can create off the dribble and he can extend the floor with his range. That is value folks. We’ve seen it in this series with Boston. Stevens is as good as they get and one can argue that the reason why Philly has stunk so bad in Boston is because Simmons, Phillys point guard is handcuffed. When you have a team that can guard at all positions and your supposed best player in Simmons (imo it’s Embiid), Stevens says let Ben beat us on the perimeter. He’s turning the call over and you can literally see his anxiety when the shot clot dwindles in that Ben knows he can’t shoot. People want to talk transcendent players? Is a transcendent player a guy who can’t shoot from 12 feet out consistently? Or is a travsecebdebt player one who is multi faceted? Guys like Embiid, AD, Mitchell....these guys can score anywhere and they can rebound if needed. They adjust accordingly with what the game asks of them. I don’t see that with Simmons. Making excuses for him and saying he is young is fine but do we make those excuses for Mitchell? Nope. I’ve seen Mitchell grab double digit boards. I’ve seen Mitchell dish out 8,9 assists. I’ve also seen Mitchell take over a quarter as a rookie in the road. Simmons doing that? Nope. But the excise is that he’s young? Too funny. If I’m giving the keys to the kingdom to a guy, I want a guy who can shoot and TAKE OVER A GAME. I want a guy who isn’t entitled. I want a guy who isn’t gonna pretend that he’s a force to be reckoned with when he scuffles with James Johnson. Let you work do the talking because I’m Simmons, I see right through it. Tear s the wallpaper down and you a big guy who can pass like magic but that’s it. The game has changed but what will never change is the fact that the top tier guys can score at will and create for themselves anywhere. Lastly, people want to talk efficiency with Ben. Is he efficient? Yes but when it matters most, is it even a discussion SO FAR that Mitchell isn’t better than Simmons? Lebron struggled early on in his career with range but he worked on it BECAUSE HE KNEW AT SOME POINT TO BE CONSIDERED A GREAT, IT WAS ALL ABOIT RANGE. Ben needs to realize this and if he gets better, great bit I’m growing tired of the idea that Ben is this special player. If he were so special, TJ MCCONNELL on the court taking minutes in a road playoff game down a possession rather than Ben? That spoke volumes. I’ve pointed this out about Ben before but the homers and the “basketball experts” in here want to remain stubborn. This isn’t about winning or losing a bet either. Philly is sooooo overrated it’s nuts and it starts with Ben. Is Boston thar much netter? Not in my eyes. I watch last nite though and I see Tatum go off all while Ben sits the bench SMILING? I had to reaffirm my stance and hopefully all the common sense watchers that Ben has a lot of work to do. Will he get ROY? Sure. He has Lebron in his corner m, he plays for an up and coming team and he doesn’t play in Utah. Give me Mitchell any day RIGHT NOW. 
 
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Posted: #8

Simmons is Jason Kidd 2.0

the league is littered with great rookie talent, who spend their entire careers working on specific improvements where needed...his shooting skills will always be a worry until he fixes the issues.

if McConnell played the 4th Q we most likely have a series tied at 1...he almost singlehandedly turned a 4 pt deficit heading into the 4th Q, into a 3 pt lead in a matter of minutes, then coach Brown yanks him in favor of Simmons and the rest is history, Philly never smells victory again with McConnell on the bench...obviously one is a role bench guy and the other is supposedly your franchise pg for the decade, however Brown really has looked like an amateur yesterday, not calling timeouts when needed in the 2nd Q epic Boston run, and then choosing to ride an ice cold Simmons rather than ride the hot hand of McConnell who had the team clicking on all cylinders.

the future of Simmons in this league could be somewhat in jeopardy if other teams piggyback on this new blueprint Coach Stevens has perfectly laid out regarding taking Simmons out of his element.

it's one thing to go off and be a wonderkid in the regular season when you catch teams playing just another game out of a 82 game schedule, it's a whole new ball game when you're matching up in a playoff series where the teams can pick your tendencies apart and game plan fully just for one key guy like Boston is doing to Simmons.

History is always 20/20 with hindsight, yes Simmons will indeed with ROY based on regular season play, partly due to the media hype and love for him, east coast biases, more eyeballs watching Philly games over Utah games, but unquestionably as of this moment, Mitchell is the best rook in the league no question about it, with Simmons 2nd, and Tatum a very close 3rd in a photofinish with Simmons.

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Posted: #9
Honestly a shame Simmons has never been taught defense and how to deal with it
 
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Posted: #10
Quote Originally Posted by packersbackers:

Simmons is Jason Kidd 2.0

the league is littered with great rookie talent, who spend their entire careers working on specific improvements where needed...his shooting skills will always be a worry until he fixes the issues.

if McConnell played the 4th Q we most likely have a series tied at 1...he almost singlehandedly turned a 4 pt deficit heading into the 4th Q, into a 3 pt lead in a matter of minutes, then coach Brown yanks him in favor of Simmons and the rest is history, Philly never smells victory again with McConnell on the bench...obviously one is a role bench guy and the other is supposedly your franchise pg for the decade, however Brown really has looked like an amateur yesterday, not calling timeouts when needed in the 2nd Q epic Boston run, and then choosing to ride an ice cold Simmons rather than ride the hot hand of McConnell who had the team clicking on all cylinders.

the future of Simmons in this league could be somewhat in jeopardy if other teams piggyback on this new blueprint Coach Stevens has perfectly laid out regarding taking Simmons out of his element.

it's one thing to go off and be a wonderkid in the regular season when you catch teams playing just another game out of a 82 game schedule, it's a whole new ball game when you're matching up in a playoff series where the teams can pick your tendencies apart and game plan fully just for one key guy like Boston is doing to Simmons.

History is always 20/20 with hindsight, yes Simmons will indeed with ROY based on regular season play, partly due to the media hype and love for him, east coast biases, more eyeballs watching Philly games over Utah games, but unquestionably as of this moment, Mitchell is the best rook in the league no question about it, with Simmons 2nd, and Tatum a very close 3rd in a photofinish with Simmons.


I’m glad you see what I see. And what we see is right there; it’s the reality. My point to a troll a few weeks ago who loves his Philly teams was simply what I’ve reaffirmed above. The regular season is completely different from the postseason and what we’ve seen in the regular season is not what we are seeing from Ben when games matter most. This kid is getting exposed and I guess for me I’m a bit surprised it didn’t happen earlier. He’s gonna fill the stat sheets but for him to be taken seriously as the next coming or some top tier talent, we need to start with the basics and that’s with a jump shot. People can talk about shaq and Dwight Hiward and say these guys didn’t have jump shots but still shot high percentages from the field. They were big men that sat in the post. We are talking about a tall glorified point guard here in Ben where range is everything. Watch Boston in how they guard him. It does t take rocket scientist to figure out how to stop him. Make him go to his right and bake him settle or make decisions later in the shot clock. So far, he looks I over his head; deer in headlights.  I guess I wouldn’t do  as hard on Ben here but the people that are lined up thinking Ben is this next coming? It’s hilarious. Ben is NOT the new wave of player in the NBA. The new wave is players having range regardless of their size. Ben doesn’t have range and if he wants to fill the stat sheets in the regular season, you can have it. For me, what are you doing when you team needs you most? Are you taking the ball during crunch time and being a cold blooded assassin or are you dribbling in circles because you know and the opponent knows, you can’t hit a mid range jumper consistently? Again....give me the guy who plays bigger than what he is and the guy who isn’t afraid of a d@mn thing and shows it in his approach and in his PLAYOFF numbers....Mitchell. 
 
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Posted: #11
Going off topic these raptors are fu king rediculious. Same old team playoff chokes, coach cant do garbage and are rattle badly. i have to say this team is so over hype every year and fail. they should of have won game 2 but now are done for the series. Even if they win one they still might lose at 6.
 
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Posted: #12
Quote Originally Posted by HungerforMoney:

Going off topic these raptors are fu king rediculious. Same old team playoff chokes, coach cant do garbage and are rattle badly. i have to say this team is so over hype every year and fail. they should of have won game 2 but now are done for the series. Even if they win one they still might lose at 6.

Ya gotta win 4 to advance so until then....the series isn’t over. I will say though as one who has said both the Cavs are better than what they’ve shown and that the raptors are a good team, this series will get better. Covers is a great place because the same people who counted out the Cavs against the weak pacers and the same ones counting out the raptors against those same Cavs. 
 
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Posted: #13
Quote Originally Posted by Achilles1629:


Ya gotta win 4 to advance so until then....the series isn’t over. I will say though as one who has said both the Cavs are better than what they’ve shown and that the raptors are a good team, this series will get better. Covers is a great place because the same people who counted out the Cavs against the weak pacers and the same ones counting out the raptors against those same Cavs. 



yes i am aware but its over for the raptors. The purpose of having home court was important and now they lost 2 to home shows me that this game is done. At best i see it may go to game 6 with raptors aleast winning 1 more at clv. Maybe raptors win both but i doubt raptors will though. I cant stand this team the raptors always great regular season but playoffs like wtf. Coach need to go best team with the bench and get blowout in the 3rd in game 2 unreal. 
 
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I like how you wait until Simmons has an awful game to make this thread. Also Philly 2 losses and a jazz win. Using recency bias to get ppl on your side. I had this argument before the playoffs started and Mitchell has my roy vote but not because of 1 game. LeBron didnt have much of a jumper his rookie year either. Dude shot 41% and 29% from 3. Look at him now. Simmons has plenty of time to develop a jumpshot and when he does he'll be the better player. You're using 1 game, with your TJ MCONNELL garbage, as your sample size. Like Simmons hasn't been the driving force on this team for this playoff push.

Give the Boston D some credit too, they're going under every screen and forcing him out of the paint. You're knocking Simmons for struggling against a good defense but we haven't even seen Mitchell play against a good defense. Unless you think the thunder and rockets play great defense you dont have a true comparison and you're just biased based on what you've seen in the past 3 days 

 
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I not even here to bash on the raptors but if they had a shot for me to beliveve they got this was to win aleast 1 game at home. They work hard for home court and just got blasted. But to me its over for that series. I think cavs possible making back to the Finals. Sixers series might run up to game 7 so it will be very interesting couple weeks.
 
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Quote Originally Posted by GBpack12:

I like how you wait until Simmons has an awful game to make this thread. Also Philly 2 losses and a jazz win. Using recency bias to get ppl on your side. I had this argument before the playoffs started and Mitchell has my roy vote but not because of 1 game. LeBron didnt have much of a jumper his rookie year either. Dude shot 41% and 29% from 3. Look at him now. Simmons has plenty of time to develop a jumpshot and when he does he'll be the better player. You're using 1 game, with your TJ MCONNELL garbage, as your sample size. Like Simmons hasn't been the driving force on this team for this playoff push.

Give the Boston D some credit too, they're going under every screen and forcing him out of the paint. You're knocking Simmons for struggling against a good defense but we haven't even seen Mitchell play against a good defense. Unless you think the thunder and rockets play great defense you dont have a true comparison and you're just biased based on what you've seen in the past 3 days 


I actually agree spoken as I would of said.
 
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GBPack12:  I’ve felt this way about Simmons for a long time chief. Let’s get that straight. You just gotta read a little more. It helps.You say I’m biased? That’s really interesting in that all playoffs Mitchell has let the STATS do the talking. I’m just wondering if I’m the only seeing them? You obviously have a problem? You bet on Philly? I’m sorry if you lost bud. As for TJ, one game is too many to be sitting the bench in the playoff game for a backup. A playoff game that was a 2 point game too. That speaks volumes. I can’t help YOU if YOU are the one that is biased. I’m speaking facts here. The foreshadowing of Simmons getting exposed was there a few weeks ago. Can’t help ya if you don’t read. Also can’t help ya if you don’t want to read the thread. I already pointed out Lebron bud. Hoping your Friday gets better bud. It’s clear you are very salty about Ben and his lack of production. For me, I saw this coming. It’s pretty clear what his issues are. Like I stated, I’d he turns it around, I will be the first to give the guy a hand. I’m calling a spade a spade here. Deep breathes bud.   
 
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Posted: #18
two words:

Brett Brown

bad decisions, bad coaching, bad rotations and just awful preparations namely piss poor defense to start

you can have all the young talent in the world, and philly does but if you don't have the coach to gel them into a team, aint happening.


 
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Both are going to be very good players in long run, if I had a choice between two I am taking Simmons.   His shooting can improve assuming he wants to get better.  On this team he really shouldn’t need to be main scorer.  Mitchell has played great all year and now in playoffs.  I would have zero problem with him winning ROY.  Also I just heard him interviewed other day for first time on DP show, kid did great job, very likable.
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Yeah I’m not here to argue or ruffle feathers. Those days are done. I’m just stating what I’ve seen. The cliff notes for me are clear: Mitchell > Simmons. Simmon sn actual rookie and Ben a two year guy. It’s ultra impressive what Mitchell is doing when it matters most. 
 
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Posted: #21
im a big fan of mitchell he got great moves and excellent jump shot.
Simmons still my favorite will be the future after lebron is gone.
 
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Posted: #22

You guys sound ridiculous. Ben Simmons is a rookie. He, along with Embiid, willed his team to the playoffs. You sound like Donovan Mitchell isn't getting his just due. Everyone is in love with Mitchell. You act like your trumpeting the arrival of some sleeper. If you're simply aiming to say Mitchell should be Rookie of the Year, you could've saved yourself some typing. I think most would agree. If you're trying to say Ben Simmons is all hype, or overrated, or any other negative superlatives, you're just wrong. I can't believe someone had the nerve to say, "Am I the only one seeing this?" about Donovan Mitchell. Where was this thread 4 months ago?

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Stump: thanks for your opinion. You have a good day. This thread 4 months ago would t have made sense considering the preface is based upon Ben being subpar in the playoffs and Mitchell essentially making history with his resume so far. The “Ben is a rookie” bs has a weight of ZERO . Why? Mitchell is a rookie. A true one. Make sense? If not that’s ok. Read my initial post Chief. It states simply that at some point for him to be a top tier player, he will need s jump shot. Also it states my preference of Mitchell over Simmons. Simply huffing a puffing and blowing a gasket.....it’s not necessary. 
 
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Posted: #24
The Media is so thirsty for the "next big thing".  Next Lebron, next Magic, next Jordan.  LOL.

Simmons will never lead a team to a championship because he's all about himself and his triple-doubles.  He passes the ball because he knows his teammates are better shooters/scorers than him.  He couldn't hit the side of a barn with a handful of sand.  

Throw Lonzo Ball in the same category as Simmons.  

Guys like Simmons or Ball will only win championships if they have real studs like Mitchell or Tatum on their team.  
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Here’s another good point: Look at Utah and their offense. Who on that team is a true threat? Joe Ingles, Favors, Exum? Mitchell, a true rookie, with everybody in the gym knowing Utah isn’t an offensive powerhouse, still puts up the numbers when he has no other choice but to have to. Simmons, on the other hand, has light years better talent so the EXCUSE I keep hearing is that he doesn’t need to score. Really? I wonder if Ben scored a few points in that fourth quarter, would Philly be down 0-2? Where’s this thread 4 months ago? Non-existent because it was the regular season. Playoff ball is different and players get exposed. I said this would happen so pretending this is a bash Ben thread because of his last two games....that’s lazy. Players are asked for more in the playoffs. This is the playoffs and if a true rookie can produce big numbers, in big games, as the number one end all be all scorer (Mitchell), why can’t a guy like Ben do the same? WATCH THE GAMES. Ben does NOT even look to shoot and many of his supporters would say again, he doesn’t have to. That’s a cop out folks. IF he had a jump shot, don’t you think he’d shoot more? The dude took the summer of last year off, the entire regular season off and you’d think he’d at least work on that jump shot? I will be the first to say that if Ben gets that shot, he will be unstoppable and then the talk of him being a top tier player would make sense. I feel as if I’m trying to persuade people to see these things yet it’s all right there. It was there in the 82 games, it’s there now when games count and it will be there until the entitlement and passive approach towards getting better changes. I’d love to see Ben get better because he is a good player but right now, with what’s being asked of Mitchell, which is a lot, this kid has had no choice but to take the reigns and in what I have seen, hes light years ahead of Ben. Put Mitchell of Philly....see what happens. Put Ben of Utah....they don’t sniff the second round.  
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