Colo Supremes: Insurrectionist Trump doesn’t belong in our primary

Smultaneously, the loss in revenue to the treasury (thanks to trump trying to curry favor with his supporters) simply SKYROCKETED the national debt - which the criminal tax fraud & "king of debt" had PROMISED he would eliminate down to ZERO! 

What's the difference between  a Democrat and a Republican  ? 

A Democrat acknowledges no one except their own ....   A Republican acknowledges all. Regardless.   ( I hear ya, Spock) 

Merry Christmas,  Everyone  !! 

@wallstreetcappers

 I am not a liberal at all, but you generalize me that way because I vote for what is best for society and I practice in my own home what is best for me. That is a huge distinction and few including you understand that and practice it. I think my conservative views and nature are best served inside my family circle and there I can decide what I want to do and how I live my life, society is not conservative in the slightest, not even close to how I am or how I make choices. The responses you see from me here are how I feel society is best served, and that is how we need to vote. 

You are saying you are not 'Liberal' at home but vote for Liberal candidates and support Liberal policies -- because 'it is good for society'?

What examples would you say would support this and show you NOT to be a Liberal?  I am not saying a Leftist as much as I am saying a Liberal -- there is a huge difference.

Liberals used to be a lot better before they were conflated with a Leftist mindset.

What possible explanation would make you think it would be good to run your household and raise your kids in a more Conservative manner -- BUT conclude the exact OPPOSITE is better for society.  How do you reconcile that?

You see how that can be seen as very deceptive, as though you are embarrassed somewhat to support Conservative views openly.

I know of absolutely no one else that has ever told me this before.

@wallstreetcappers

 I share SOME of the religious beliefs to a much more moderate degree that SOME of the GOP candidates like say Romney represent but that is my personal family religious beliefs, not what I feel society wants or needs or should be force fed. Society does not need a corporatist, that is where Romney lost me, they do not need a failed corporatist who has no morals or little consideration for middle to lower class and that is Trump. When a candidate belittles and tries to elevate themselves by insulting others that loses my vote because it shows a total lack of character. Trump has no character, few redeeming values and he rigged his way in and had that opportunity and he did nothing with the most pristine economic conditions any president will ever have. No president had ZIRP as Trump did, no president had carte blanche to stealth run deficits as Trump did. I can go on as to what a cushy scenario he had but the point is he did nothing with it, made no attempt to reverse course on spending or make a big impact for the future. The shoddy wall crap he did was not impactful, giving freebies to corps on a tax holiday was not impactful, there was no move to solidify this country in an economically positive way. He ran his mouth, golfed a ton, kept is face in front of the media because that is what he values, attention and singular spotlight. 

I do not know exactly how you would share some religious beliefs -- but to a more moderate degree -- without being, by definition, more Liberal.  Moderate is simply a euphemism there to me.  Again, how can you align with better morals and values, personally and raise your kids to believe that way --yet, think a more Liberal stance is better for society.  Society is a MESS because of that mindset.

Society does not need a corporatist, that is where Romney lost me

Why not -- just because there are none you have ever liked -- even though by your admission Romney was a good guy.  So what if he came from that world.  By most accounts Mass liked the way he ran that state.  Certainly those type people understand the role of government as a functioning entity that needs to have its pieces help accountable.  He also demonstrated leadership qualities that translated to the government role -- unlike a lot of standard politicians.

Do not really care about any connection you are trying to make about Trump.  I understand you do not like the guy and he can do no good in your mind.  I would rather you focus on Romney.

Again, I ask what Conservative candidates have you supported -- and which do you support now?

@wallstreetcappers

 None of the other candidates you listed have any better qualities, all are deranged and angry they follow the Trump scheme of debasing others to elevate themselves, there is nothing unique or unifying or spectacular about any GOP candidate, nothing that inspires or motivates its just a bunch of sewer level politicians. Biden is a zero he is terrible but I am not sure the DNC will bring something awesome to the party either, I guess we will see but I am not holding out great hope.

Politics is a very dirty business and it is that way because it tends to work -- a lot.  Republicans do not have a lock on being nasty when campaigning.

Biden may be a zero -- actually he is a negative -- but you have to choose him instead of Trump.  So, either you support him by voting 'against' Trump or you 'choose' him by not voting.

There has to be someone else you would like to see run? 

@wallstreetcappers

 To me I live and make choices that are suited to my beliefs and my foundation and I ignore all the crap out in society, but I support that which gives the most rights to the middle and lower class, that which does the most for those who have the least and I keep my conservative views to myself and vote accordingly.

Why would you ignore all 'the crap out in society'?  Yet you support the 'crap in society' by default if you do that.  Then you are on here a lot backing up the 'crap' policies in society.

What 'rights to the middle and lower class' do you support?  What 'rights' do they NOT have now they you think they should be given?

Why would you 'keep your Conservative' views to yourself?  Why portray yourself as the exact opposite on here?  Nearly everyone on here thinks you support th Liberal agenda because that is what you say.

If you think Conservative values are good for you and your family -- why in the world would you not think they would be good for others as well?  Obviously, what we have been trying has been failing drastically in society -- so how can you think it is good for society.

Those are sincere questions.

@wallstreetcappers

 Two more quick things.

Why on 4th down with 2 minute warning to come and all 3 timeouts do you go for it in your own end.  This allows them to kick a FG and make it a 2-score game now.

I do not know if you watched the game or not.  But very bad call in a 1-score game.

Also, I do want to say that you do seem more Conservative in some of your fiscal ideas for money and spending, etc.

So, it is hard for me to understand how you advocate free spending on so many Liberal things in society just because 'it is best' for society.  Is it really?

@wallstreetcappers

 Huh?  I would think you of all the people on here would know better than this.  The numbers clearly reflected what happened.  

This has been demonstrated before in Economic theory and in practice.  Everyone in the middle-class benefited from that.  All of the studies show this.  The actual tax returns show this.  

This is a classic case of why I say you lean more Liberal -- no Conservative would say these sorts of things that you say here.

@Raiders22

 The AZ question, no I have zero interest in watching this team and especially Kyler, he is not a player I like watching or that inspires and draws me to the team. I am more interested in how Flacco is doing than how Kyler is doing. Also the media down here showcase how selfish and bizarre this team is, I do not have any players that I am interested in following or supporting. Is it shocking they lost? No...Kyler has lacked that fire and motivation for a long long time and I hope they cut him loose in the offseason. I also lost interest when the news leaked about what a putz Bidwill is and how abusive he is to employees of the organization.

You asked about 50 things I will have to get around to it but one thing I want to say is that 100% for sure I keep my PERSONAL feelings and decisions inside my walls and I do not vote based on what I think is best for me and my family, that is for sure the exact opposite of how I vote. I think conservatives get stuck trying to force their narrative onto society, you vote based on your conservative views and opinions and are closed minded to the reality of society. I do not let the wacko society and different views impact how I live my life in my house and I do not see value in trying to force religious and conservative views on a society which does not share my views. The best way to make an impact in the world is to lead by example and understand that differences exist and allow those differences to exist. No question this is the quandry of the conservative base. I leave my religion at home, I leave my conservative home views at home and that is where they belong, not being shoved down the throats of society.

I guess I am the only one who had higher taxes every single year after the Trump scam got pushed through, I had deductions I would take which pushed me higher than the Trump standard deduction, but with several disallowed or modified , AND higher marginal brackets, my taxes are higher and have been every year since. I have a background in this industry and a past in the financial services industry so I feel pretty confident I am capable of doing my taxes and for ME squarely as middle class these changes harmed me and my family and if you look outside pro-Trump/GOP sources you will find the tax cuts were not positive for all.

@wallstreetcappers

 The AZ question, no I have zero interest in watching this team and especially Kyler, he is not a player I like watching or that inspires and draws me to the team. I am more interested in how Flacco is doing than how Kyler is doing. Also the media down here showcase how selfish and bizarre this team is, I do not have any players that I am interested in following or supporting. Is it shocking they lost? No...Kyler has lacked that fire and motivation for a long long time and I hope they cut him loose in the offseason. I also lost interest when the news leaked about what a putz Bidwill is and how abusive he is to employees of the organization.

Yep. Very good points.  I think the second time I have played them this year.  I really felt they would keep it close.

Very amazed they paid Murray -- I really did not expect that.  

I do not know anything about Bidwell.  But never good when your employees come out and say that.  A disgruntled one here or there, maybe.  But if is being leaked to the news then there is something to it.

@wallstreetcappers

 You asked about 50 things I will have to get around to it but one thing I want to say is that 100% for sure I keep my PERSONAL feelings and decisions inside my walls and I do not vote based on what I think is best for me and my family, that is for sure the exact opposite of how I vote. I think conservatives get stuck trying to force their narrative onto society, you vote based on your conservative views and opinions and are closed minded to the reality of society. 

Yes. You have said that before.  But it is very strange and I have never heard someone say they vote opposite their personal values because they think that is best for society.  

I do not think Conservatives try to 'force' their narrative anymore than the Liberals do.  That is just the nature of politics -- both sides 'think' they know what is best.

It would still be better to have 3-4 major parties.

Like I said before there are basically 7-9 segments -- but the way it is set up they are 'forced' into one of two parties.

@wallstreetcappers

 I guess I am the only one who had higher taxes every single year after the Trump scam got pushed through, I had deductions I would take which pushed me higher than the Trump standard deduction, but with several disallowed or modified , AND higher marginal brackets, my taxes are higher and have been every year since. I have a background in this industry and a past in the financial services industry so I feel pretty confident I am capable of doing my taxes and for ME squarely as middle class these changes harmed me and my family and if you look outside pro-Trump/GOP sources you will find the tax cuts were not positive for all. 

Apparently not -- Sidehatch says his were.  But this is all due to the deductions being disallowed.  This is far more in some states as opposed to others.

But the straight income tax brackets were where the savings were and that part is what it was.  The rest were all compromises to get the tax bracket reductions and other things.

But these very much helped the middle class by cutting their federal taxes.  You have to remember a lot of folks do not even own a house or use some of the other deductions.  As we went over in the other thread the amount of savings for nearly everyone was increased except for the very top class.

I would go back and read those links in there where this was all broken down.  The federal tax brackets were reduced.  There is a very good point to be made to get rid of all of the other stuff anyway and just make it a level playing field for the ones that are not fortunate enough to own a house yet, etc.  If folks were simply taxed on their income without all of the other things -- the savings would be very easy to see.  But now folks 'assume' they are due these deductions.  But these are the same folks that complain when the 'rich' do not 'pay their fair share' because they get all sorts of tax breaks. Etc., etc. 

But all of this is clearly broken down by the economists and others in those links.

This sort of thing nearly always jump starts the economy and is a great leading indicator because it has a lagging effect.  But Trump or any other Republican rarely gets credit for it.  But the next administration sees a lot more value from it as it starts to take affect and they are proud to take credit for it then.

I'm middle class and the tax cuts were nice. Funny how only Trump haters claim their taxes went up.Hmmm.

https://smartasset.com/taxes/trump-tax-brackets

@Raiders22

 You cant say that the change in the tax platform was great for the middle class when you admit that for those who had deductions it was not, and that in my case is applicable. I am not on the east coast either where the damage for that square middle class would be much worse, the property tax rate here is lower than what I was paying when I lived on the east coast and in some areas where there is local and state taxes, that loss also was harmful. I do not consider myself to be upper middle class, I drive older cars, no vacations, no second or vacation house, no large net worth or extreme aspect to how I live. I am as flat middle class as ty come I also do not have all or most of the previous deductions available, I had some not all and my taxes went up. 

You cant use the excuse that we should eliminate all deductions and people do not own houses, all of that because it existed a long long time before. It is not some switch-o change-o that was short term, the previous tax code and deductions were around a long time. So the change was dramatic and damaging for some, that some is me. I did an analysis of my deductions from prior years my brackets and what changed. You can say that some benefitted and some did not, to me it was a way to take a swipe at the middle class and to give some advantages to the upper class. I dont see why it needed changing in the first place and I do not consider it something that was worth changing. You can discuss the scourge of the tax system all you like but that is not the point at hand if it should exist, the point is that Uni tried to portray it as positive and a great thing but it was not. I do not need to look at links and other peoples comments to draw my conclusions, I analyze how it impacted me as an average dood in the middle class and I have done my taxes and the taxes of many over the years, my conclusion is based on my experience and that MANY are similar to me, they are smack in the middle of the brackets before, had some deductions which were more than the standard, not a ton more but a little more and the changes were damaging to me and I have no idea why it happened in the first place.

@wallstreetcappers

 You can go online and look at the differences of what the average middle class paid in the year prior and the year after.

The numbers are what they are.  I am not interested in property taxes -- those vary widely and they do not affect everyone.

Bottom line is that your Federal Income tax went down.  The other things may affect you and not others.  Those issue can, and should be, addressed individually.

But when the majority of tax payers had their tax bill cut -- that is great for them.  That is extra money for the average person.  Now if individual states have other issues that is separate.  I am only addressing the federal rates.

What specific advantages did they give to the upper class that they did not have already?

Most middle income folks simply used the standard deduction -- the upper class have the deductions they have always had.

Your Federal Taxes paid went down and that was the main point.  The tax system needs to be simplified.

These are still valid from the old thread:

More than four years after Pelosi’s dire statements, analysts now have the evidence needed to evaluate whether the TCJA truly was, as Pelosi suggested, nothing more than a “snake oil pitch.” The results are definitive and striking.

According to data from the U.S. Internal Revenue Service comparing outcomes from 2017 to 2018—the first year the tax reform law went into effect—the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act reduced average effective income tax rates for filers in every one of the IRS’s income brackets, with the largest benefits going to lower- and middle-income households. 

For example, after accounting for all tax deductions and credits, filers with an adjusted gross income (AGI) of $40,000 to $50,000 received an average tax cut of 18.2 percent.[4]

The IRS data further show that the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act appeared to have a strong upward effect on economic mobility. The number of filers with an adjusted gross income of $1 to $25,000 decreased by more than 2 million in just one year, while the number of households reporting incomes higher than $25,000 increased in every income bracket.[5]

The most significant increase occurred in the $100,000 to $200,000 bracket, which included more than 1 million additional filers in 2018 than it did in 2017.[6]

The IRS data also revealed that higher-income earners paid an even larger share of the total tax burden in 2018 than they did in 2017, indicating that the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act may have made the tax code slightly more progressive. This finding contradicts the countless statements made by Democrats over the past four years criticizing TCJA as legislation that favored wealthier filers.

In 2017, filers earning $500,000 or more paid 38.9 percent of all personal income tax revenues. In 2018, the same income bracket paid 41.5 percent of total income tax revenues.[7]

The available evidence is clear: Based on tax data from 2017 and 2018, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act reduced taxes for the vast majority of filers, led to substantial improvements in upward economic mobility, and disproportionately benefited working- and middle-class households, many of which experienced tax cuts topping 18 percent to 20 percent.

It appears Nancy Pelosi’s claims of “snake oil” peddling were completely unfounded.

So, as a result of the TCJA, high earners paid more taxes to the government, while everyone else paid less. They also paid a larger percentage of all taxes, while everyone else paid a smaller percentage.

But what about the middle class specifically? While there is no accepted definition for the “middle class,” median family income in 2018 was $63,179, so let’s look at taxpayers making between $50,000 and $100,000.

In 2018, there were about 35 million taxpayers in this bracket, an increase of roughly one million over 2017 (a growing middle class). In total, they owed $31 billion less in 2018 than in 2017. In other words, the middle class got nearly half of the $64 billion decline in taxes owed under the TCJA.

As for their share of the tax burden, it also declined. While they accounted for 22 percent of total income (roughly the same as in 2017), their share of income taxes was 13 percent (over a percentage point less than in 2017).

Let’s look at taxpayers making under $25,000. The number of taxpayers in this bracket was 52 million in 2018, a drop of 2.3 million taxpayers from 2017. In total, their tax liability declined 16 percent or $4 billion, from $25 billion in 2017 to $21 billion in 2018.

Their share of the tax burden also declined. Those taxpayers accounted for 4 percent of total income (roughly the same as in 2017) but their share of taxes was one percent (slightly less than in 2017).

So here are the results of the Trump tax cuts:

--The income tax burden for high earners increased $16 billion to 40 percent of the total owed.

--The income tax burden for middle class earners decreased by $31 billion to 13 percent of the total owed.

--The income tax burden for low wage workers decreased by $4 billion to 1 percent of the total owed.

Doesn’t sound much like a tax cut for the wealthy.

So why does Biden keep saying what he says? To quote Ronald Reagan: “It isn’t so much that liberals are ignorant. It’s just that they know so many things that aren’t so.”

As for middle- and lower-wage earners, the number of tax returns claiming the standard deduction increased in 2018 by 29 percent to 134 million. Because the TCJA increased this deduction, the amount those taxpayers deducted increased $1.4 billion or 156 percent from $900 million to $2.3 billion.

In reality, thanks to the TCJA, working and middle-class Americans were earning more and keeping more of what they earned following the Trump tax cuts. That meant bigger paychecks and an easier time meeting household expenses.

As a group, high earners were paying more and bore a greater percentage of the income tax burden.

Biden can claim otherwise but that won’t make it so.

This is really not as complicated as folks try to make it.

Income brackets:

The TCJA changed the tax brackets and the income thresholds for brackets. For example, if you are now in the 12% tax bracket, before you would have been in the 15% tax bracket. If you are now in the 22% tax bracket, you would have been in the 25% tax bracket. If you are now in the 24% tax bracket, you would have been in either the 28% or 25% tax bracket, depending on your income.

Nothing but good here so far

The act nearly doubled the standard deduction and eliminated or limited many itemized deductions. The effect of the tax reform was that many people who used to itemize on Schedule A took the standard deduction instead. 

This is a good way to try to simplify the tax code.  Doubling the standard deduction was good in that it encouraged people to use this instead of itemizing; bad, if you are someone that itemized and used any kind of deductions and credits you could get.  A different debate would be whether that is personally good longterm or not (if you are doing this you are more than likely making bad fiscal choices for your longterm financial stability.

Personal Exemptions

The new law suspended personal and dependent exemptions between 2018 and 2025. Though an exemption is not technically a deduction, it functions the same way by allowing you to reduce your taxable income by the amount of the exemption. In this case, say the exemption was $4,050 for yourself and for each dependent you claim. Now, it is zero. Keep in mind, though, that even though you can't claim a personal or dependent exemption, you may be eligible for other tax benefits.

Same point here as above.  The question is whether or not the simplification offset the exemptions enough, etc.

Child Tax Credit

The TCJA doubled the child tax credit(CTC) from $1,000 to $2,000 for those who qualify, including parents with higher incomes than in the past. That limit was increased again for the 2021 tax year to $3,000 for children ages six through 17 and $3,600 for children under the age of five. These reverted back to the original amount of $2,000 for 2022 and 2023. Income thresholds are $200,000 for single parents and $400,000 for those married filing jointly, whereafter the credit is reduced.

Remember, this is a tax credit so this comes directly off the total taxes you owe. In addition, a new $500 tax credit is available for dependents aged 17 and older.

Obviously, a good thing for middle to lower income classes.

Higher Standard Deduction

The TCJA raised the standard deduction for taxpayers. Single filers can claim a standard deduction of $12,950 in 2022 and $13,850 in 2023. For married couples filing jointly, the deduction is $25,900 in 2022 and $27,700 in 2023.

Regardless of your age, you may discover that the new standard deduction is larger than the combined total of your itemized deductions, even if you deduct mortgage interest.

Nothing not to like here.

A lot more good stuff over there -- I highly recommend folks go read it.

@wallstreetcappers

 But I really am not concerned about making this another 'are tax cuts good or bad' thread.

Just when you have time go back and address the questions.

Why if you think being Conservative is good for you and your kids do you not think it is good for society but insist Liberal policies are best?

What Conservatives have you voted for or supported and why?  Which ones do you support now or would like to see run?

Etc. etc.

A few things..

40-50k is not middle class, even down here that barely would cover rent, utilities a small car payment and basic living, not saving much at all. Phoenix is not a high cost of living area, not the cheapest but for sure lower than many metro areas. If you make 40k-50k you are struggling to survive.

100-200k is not upper class, that is middle class now. If that is married filing jointly you will hit AMT at less than 150k and at that point your marginal federal taxation including FICA and Medicare will be right close to 50%, that is not upper class.

Not sure how you can say MY Federal taxes went down, they did not go down they went up because the changes harmed my situation, my Federal taxes are higher. So please stop saying that my federal tax went down, it did not. You cannot minimize my situation because I have property taxes, I am not alone or in a massive minority either. And it isnt just the SALT that got hit, other items were modified. You know this so why try to portray this as something different than what it is? 

The higher standard deduction for a middle class married filing joint is a disadvantage, it is not enough to make the difference between the loss of previous deductions AND the marginal bracket which existed for the filer who was pure middle class..meaning passed the previous standard and had some deductions but not jumping into a large AMT situation or where phase outs start reducing deductions. Why would I say that my tax burden went up if it didnt? I am not a high income earner, I am able to cover expenses living conservatively, make 401k and IRA contributions and save a little, but that is living tight and being smart. That is not high income, I am pure middle of the road.

Do you think that someone making 150k and facing AMT is paying their fair share? After state taxes, the higher zone of income tax rates for someone touching AMT is 55-65% and that seems excessive, someone making 150k with a family is not high earning in this economy and will not be able to save a large percentage to prepare for a job loss or investments or retiring early. I think the definitions you are giving for middle class (40-50k) and high earners (100-200k) is off and partly why the lower and middle class are going nowhere in the future. We should be desiring the lower and middle class to be able to retire early, to invest and afford a reasonable living and currently that is not the case especially with the consume now mentality most have.

Last thing, I am not going to prove if I am conservative or not because what you are completely missing is that being conservative in my home does not mean I either vote for a "conservative" by political definition OR that there is one which both fits my description of conservative AND that I feel serve the better good of society. I do not vote based on my personal family opinions or views, what I live in my home is not what I expect exists in society, nor would I force my personal views on society if I could. People need to make decisions which they feel is best for them and that is how I vote. I vote based on what best serves the least and those who are in greatest need. My choice to live with conservative views and financial decisions is mine and I do what I think is best for me, and that is the extent to which my conservative views extend into society, they do not. I try to be respectful and kind, I live inside the law and do the best I can and that is all I try to do. I would never take my personal views into the voting booth. Notice I said there is not a candidate that I feel best serves the lesser and is deserving of my vote. I do not think that the GOP is seeking to serve the least especially socially. I think the GOP feels social benefit from the government is a crutch and weakness and something in error, and for society in general not for me personally it does not serve the interests of groups that need it the most.

That child tax credit number is humorous, you are acting like that figure is something great...lol it is pathetic and way too low for a middle class family. 

@wallstreetcappers

 It is relative and dependent on a few factors. 

This is what FOX10 says:

So what is the minimum annual income required in 2023 for a family of four to be middle class in Arizona? Consumer Affairs found that number by using a calculator provided by the Pew Research Center and an inflation calculator provided by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The answer is $57,964. That's much lower than the minimum annual income required to be considered middle class in neighboring states: In California and Colorado, it's $69,064; in Utah, it's $67,830; in Nevada, it's $66,597; and in New Mexico, it's $64,130. 

@wallstreetcappers

 It is very, very hard to argue what the tax brackets were.  Your Federal Tax on wages went down.  That is not questionable.

It is the extraneous stuff you have an issue with.