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Gap between CEO and workers is much worse than you realize

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Is this the joke of the day?

No such thing as free markets silly...I think we debated this a few years ago though right???





So you admit that MS is a SAF?
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #27
I am no fan of corporate fuks, but I understand that corporate fuks are a slippery bunch to nail to the wall. Destroying their wealth and earning capacity has consequences. 

I am not sure much gets better as a result.

I know protectionist policies would have a net benefit for the middle class.  With the Deflation we are seeing relative to other countries since weening back a bit on the QE firehose, protectionist policies could possibly work great.  First thought is that our cheap exports would be more expensive, but I am not sure that is true at all. Especially with China entering a downturn.
 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Is this the joke of the day?

No such thing as free markets silly...I think we debated this a few years ago though right???

Jerry?

 
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Posted: #29
Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenGoose:





So you admit that MS is a SAF?

It is difficult to hide usually so it isnt too tough figuring things out.

Either that or he was watching from the bleachers...

 
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Posted: #30

Golden Goose, you are so right, the middle class has been getting screwed for 30 years.  And the gullible right wing middle class fall for the con job every election, mainly because of gun control.

 

 

 
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Posted: #31
Some of this is overblown a bit. People move up or down in class and from class to class. It is not like the exact same people are kept stagnant. By definition people that are middle class are usually those with slightly less ambition, etc. So, to an extent, the achievers continue to excel and climb. 
Middle class income and buying power is relatively the same for a long time. So it is not like they are losing ground relatively speaking. They are just losing ground to a very small amount of achievers, be they CEOs, actors, athletes, etc.  Who says 30:1 is ideal? Why should it stay 30:1?  Does it really matter?  Is 100:1 really wrong?  This is one of the great things about living here, you are mainly limited by yourself.  Reminds me of Global Warming Wackos that think the avg temp should be 54 degrees or whatever it is right now?  Based on what they are used to and think it should always be. Ideal could be 58. Who knows?
This guy explains somewhat how deceitful it is to blame corporations and CEOs while absolving the middle class themselves:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2014/08/13/middle-class-power-behind-wage-inequality/

 
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Posted: #32

CEO's and bankers have too much power. The middle class used to stick together. Unions were stronger. Now people live in fear, keep their heads down and try to move up the ladder.

People in the past would support the local guy, now they just think of themselves and go to big box stores to save a few dollars.

Nobody cares anymore. There's no pride. People don't support each other. Co workers will see someone getting treated like crap and look the other way.

There's a disconnect between the people in this country. People knew everyone in their neighborhood ... share salt, butter, a few eggs, milk etc.. People used to wave to each other. People kept an eye out for the old lady in the neighborhood.

This country will be better off if there's a serious crash and everyone gets a chance to reevaluate what's really important to them.

 
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Posted: #33

Seven years old and still SPOT ON...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #34

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” - Thomas Jefferson

"By remaining behind the scenes, they (the Rothschilds) were able to avoid the brunt of public anger which was directed, instead, at the political figures which they largely controlled. This is a technique which has been practiced by financial manipulators ever since, and it is fully utilized by those who operate the Federal Reserve System today."- G. Edward Griffin

 

 
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Posted: #35
I think conspiracy theory guys like Griffin make some good points. I mean, what the hell's going on with the "War on Terror"? Damn thing doesn't make any sense if you only go by what the politicians are saying. Just so happens there's an ocean of oil over there ... and the dollar is backed by oil. But we're told it's a war on terror. Come on man!
 
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Posted: #36
Couldn't agree more. I think that when I read the creature from Jeckyll island it was a major turning point for me, concerning everything i believed about the world.

I am not saying that corporate fuks are not a problem, I am saying that the "solutions" of confiscation, arbitrary caps on pay and other such nonsense is not only illegal, but it has worse consequences than the wage gap.  the "solution" would cause more pain than the perceived problem.

I think one of the only things that I disagree with the left about is the idea that taking the power away from corporations and giving it solely to government is a worse Idea than having the corruption split between the two.
 
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Posted: #37


"Better the Devil you know than the Devil you don't"
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #38
I think we know the other devil as well.
We have seen capital flight from places that are anti business, and capital flight to places that are pro business.

There is a reason that 60% of Apple's income as one of the largest companies in the world will never see American soil. It is routed to Ireland.


 
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Posted: #39
Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:

Couldn't agree more. I think that when I read the creature from Jeckyll island it was a major turning point for me, concerning everything i believed about the world.

I am not saying that corporate fuks are not a problem, I am saying that the "solutions" of confiscation, arbitrary caps on pay and other such nonsense is not only illegal, but it has worse consequences than the wage gap.  the "solution" would cause more pain than the perceived problem.

I think one of the only things that I disagree with the left about is the idea that taking the power away from corporations and giving it solely to government is a worse Idea than having the corruption split between the two.

Well I dont recall having this opinion, so I guess I am not a generalized lefty..

Having restrictions does not mean TAKING power from one means giving to another. There are guidelines, boundaries and restrictions all around us in every aspect of life. If you control or restrict or contain something that does not mean you are taking that and giving it, rather you are setting boundaries for the one only.

Inequality is the greater issue, not your fear laden power grab theory. In Europe the ratios of top pay vs median pay are much better, I think there needs to be LESS incentive to profit off stock market measures..that is short term negative thinking and that comes at a cost to the business and society. When you reward risky behavior and give too much incentive to one or two positions that for sure is not beneficial to society as a whole.
 
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Posted: #40


Inequality is the greater issue, not your fear laden power grab theory.

I think there is more fear mongering of the Koch brothers and rich people screwing the little guy as if it is some zero sum game.  Just because someone makes a ton of money does not mean that they are taking it directly out of the pocket of the low earner.

 In Europe the ratios of top pay vs median pay are much better, I think there needs to be LESS incentive to profit off stock market measures..that is short term negative thinking and that comes at a cost to the business and society.

I don't understand your guy's fetish with the top pay vs median pay statistic.  You are taking less than a thousand people (in America it is 491 billionaires) and comparing it to the rest of the work force 100+ million people. It is skewed and I think you know it.


When you reward risky behavior and give too much incentive to one or two positions that for sure is not beneficial to society as a whole.

We are talking about two things.  Risky behavior and income inequality, they are popular topics, but not as connected as people make them.  People get paid at a higher rate when they reach the apex of their profession.  Kind of like the Football or Basketball analogy.  Not everyone can play in the NFL, there are tons of people who never get paid to play the game, but those who do get paid are vastly better off than those who don't. 

And on the risk side, sure I agree with you. I am all for restoring limits on what investment banks can do with depositors money, and out of the two of us, I am dead set against bailouts.  That are the ultimate reward for Crappy risky investment. 


 
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Posted: #41

Quote Originally Posted by kaponofor3:



What is this supposed to be, a final term paper essay that you want me to write?

Re: the ratio between CEO and lowest worker pay in the 60's vs. in 2014 -- I wonder if revenues increased during that time frame as well? I would imagine that has a lot to do with your inquiry.


I don't have a problem with them making whatever they can. They all scream "Capitalism" when things are well but turns to "Socialism" when things are bad(bailouts). They WANT and RECIEVE handouts all the time just like some of the welfare receipents but somehow they get a free-pass.

 
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Posted: #42
Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:



Inequality is the greater issue, not your fear laden power grab theory.

I think there is more fear mongering of the Koch brothers and rich people screwing the little guy as if it is some zero sum game.  Just because someone makes a ton of money does not mean that they are taking it directly out of the pocket of the low earner.

 In Europe the ratios of top pay vs median pay are much better, I think there needs to be LESS incentive to profit off stock market measures..that is short term negative thinking and that comes at a cost to the business and society.

I don't understand your guy's fetish with the top pay vs median pay statistic.  You are taking less than a thousand people (in America it is 491 billionaires) and comparing it to the rest of the work force 100+ million people. It is skewed and I think you know it.


When you reward risky behavior and give too much incentive to one or two positions that for sure is not beneficial to society as a whole.

We are talking about two things.  Risky behavior and income inequality, they are popular topics, but not as connected as people make them.  People get paid at a higher rate when they reach the apex of their profession.  Kind of like the Football or Basketball analogy.  Not everyone can play in the NFL, there are tons of people who never get paid to play the game, but those who do get paid are vastly better off than those who don't. 

And on the risk side, sure I agree with you. I am all for restoring limits on what investment banks can do with depositors money, and out of the two of us, I am dead set against bailouts.  That are the ultimate reward for Crappy risky investment. 



rick,

Its risk in any industry..there is never a period of time in the existence of mankind that unchecked power and control has not lead to abuse of the lesser..that is a fact. 

It is human nature to maximize whatever the matrix is..so in the case of business it is profit and control. No matter the industry or business, if there are no consequences or boundaries the business owner/execs will abuse those who do not have the power.

A few examples are....labor abuses in the 0-1940's (notice I listed zero as the lower boundary) and in the metals industry you have prime example..Microsoft would be another example of abuses to those without power..banking for sure as well as the securities industries...the housing industry abuses the buyer and the sub contractor and vendors..

I dont know how you can deny the underlying concept of human nature and the need for checks and balances and boundaries.

And yes, check on Europe, their exec compensation is regulated, and I think the same should happen here.

The example of professional sports is flawed, the cost of those high salaries are easy to see..thousands of athletes are harmed while seeking to obtain these high salaries..the damage they do to their body, their minds is irreversible..so yes they make a ton of money, but the total "social" cost to the athletic industry is enormous..it is actually quite pathetic when you think about it..that we reward the profit driven professional sports industry and the athletes are those who bear the costs of our demand. 
 
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Posted: #43
"And yes, check on Europe, their exec compensation is regulated, and I think the same should happen here."

You want a model?  A good model?  Look at the Japanese.

Exec income is regulated... and if they don't produce?

They are shamed in society to the point where some commit suicide.
~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #44
Quote Originally Posted by bunny651:

I don't have a problem with them making whatever they can. They all scream "Capitalism" when things are well but turns to "Socialism" when things are bad(bailouts). They WANT and RECIEVE handouts all the time just like some of the welfare receipents but somehow

they get a free-pass.




I have been touting this for YEARS.

Nobody seems to notice.  Nobody seems to care.


~~~~~ZOSO~~~~~
 
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Posted: #45
Quote Originally Posted by rick3117:

 

Fuk that. 

The best thing we could do is have more protectionist policies to keep U.S. money in the country, and prevent capital flight. 

I don't think our taxes should be as high for corporations, but I don't think we should provide incentive for outsourcing, and flight of capital.

We shouldn't hand GM billions so they can send it (and a ton of US jobs) to Mexico.

Boy oh boy, you had to get me started.

Only one country in the world allows a corporation to be headquartered in the US, whilst shipping all the production plants overseas, receive an 'improvement' tax incentive to do just that, and not charge the corporation a thing to bring those products back to the US to compete against American made products. 

Dem and Repub politicians should all be tarred and feathered. 
 
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Posted: #46
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


Boy oh boy, you had to get me started.

Only one country in the world allows a corporation to be headquartered in the US, whilst shipping all the production plants overseas, receive an 'improvement' tax incentive to do just that, and not charge the corporation a thing to bring those products back to the US to compete against American made products. 

Dem and Repub politicians should all be tarred and feathered. 

Yeah you know I share that angst..

What I also find funny is how the turnstiles revolve, you get some new blood in there yet the serious issues like this one NEVER get improved. There is a vice grip in politics called special interest lobby money..so the odds any politician can ever improve anything is pretty much zero..repub or dem.
 
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Posted: #47
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Yeah you know I share that angst..

What I also find funny is how the turnstiles revolve, you get some new blood in there yet the serious issues like this one NEVER get improved. There is a vice grip in politics called special interest lobby money..so the odds any politician can ever improve anything is pretty much zero..repub or dem.

Never ever change. Politicians will use the fear tactic of much higher prices when you and I know that is exactly that...a fear tactic. You think Walmart is going to sell shirts for as much as Joe America Mom and Pop shirt store?
 
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Posted: #48
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


rick,

Its risk in any industry..there is never a period of time in the existence of mankind that unchecked power and control has not lead to abuse of the lesser..that is a fact. 

It is human nature to maximize whatever the matrix is..so in the case of business it is profit and control. No matter the industry or business, if there are no consequences or boundaries the business owner/execs will abuse those who do not have the power.

A few examples are....labor abuses in the 0-1940's (notice I listed zero as the lower boundary) and in the metals industry you have prime example..Microsoft would be another example of abuses to those without power..banking for sure as well as the securities industries...the housing industry abuses the buyer and the sub contractor and vendors..

I dont know how you can deny the underlying concept of human nature and the need for checks and balances and boundaries.

And yes, check on Europe, their exec compensation is regulated, and I think the same should happen here.

The example of professional sports is flawed, the cost of those high salaries are easy to see..thousands of athletes are harmed while seeking to obtain these high salaries..the damage they do to their body, their minds is irreversible..so yes they make a ton of money, but the total "social" cost to the athletic industry is enormous..it is actually quite pathetic when you think about it..that we reward the profit driven professional sports industry and the athletes are those who bear the costs of our demand. 
That is not all sports. Baseball and basketball, for example, bodies and minds stay intact.  What about actors, etc.?  Just because there is demand doesn't mean others always bear the costs of the public demand. It is still simply supply and demand. Theaters and arenas are full and advertisers are selling products. 
 
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Posted: #49
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

That is not all sports. Baseball and basketball, for example, bodies and minds stay intact.  What about actors, etc.?  Just because there is demand doesn't mean others always bear the costs of the public demand. It is still simply supply and demand. Theaters and arenas are full and advertisers are selling products. 

Do you know how many people fail relative to those that make the high salaries and the cost the actors bear to obtain those salaries?

Of course theaters are full, people want to escape their poverty ridden corporate serf life and feel what they see on the movie screen..


 
 
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Posted: #50
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Do you know how many people fail relative to those that make the high salaries and the cost the actors bear to obtain those salaries?

Of course theaters are full, people want to escape their poverty ridden corporate serf life and feel what they see on the movie screen..


Depends on your definition of fail. If you mean reach elite status---most. That is why the elite get paid more. If you mean fail more than the people that don't even try---not so many.  They simply succeed at various levels up and down the money chart.  'The cost actors bear'? Don't know what you mean?  Lot of actors up and down the ladder that succeed at various levels. If you mean the risk and sacrifice they take---go be a carpenter or welder if you want now risk. Again why so few reach elite status.  If people are so poor---they couldn't afford to go to theaters and arenas. 
Just bugs me when people that can't/don't succeed or do well blame others and/or the system. Nobody is limiting you and it is not rigged. Go out and do it.  Perfect country and system to do it if you are willing to do the work, take the risks, and work hard.  People think because someone else has money and success that they can't have it. There is not a limited supply---go get yours. 
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