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    All Forums | Politics

    Why is Trump wrong?

    «First Previous 123456 Next Last»
    djbrow
    Dsn150
    shiek
    Europa
    bunny651
    ...
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    «First Previous 123456 Next Last»
     
    djbrow
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 26, 2017 - 11:29 PM ET #76

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    I've made my argument and I've clearly won. 

    I rest my case. 

    Thank you to all of the participants. 


    Self-professed victories. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    I've made my argument and I've clearly won. 

    I rest my case. 

    Thank you to all of the participants. 


    Self-professed victories. 
     
    Dsn150
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    Posted: Sep. 26, 2017 - 11:43 PM ET #77

    Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

    Yawn.

    https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-first-amendment-and-restricting-professional-athlete-protests

    Also:

    In Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) that laws against burning or otherwise desecrating the American flag were considered unconstitutional.

    The Court held: “Recognizing that the right to differ is the centerpiece of our First Amendment freedoms, a government cannot mandate by fiat a feeling of unity in its citizens. Therefore that very same government cannot carve out a symbol of unity and prescribe a set of approved messages to be associated with that symbol.”

    The only speech not protected in this manner is speech that breaches the peace, speech that incites “imminent lawless action,” according to Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969). This was Charlottesville, for example.


    Interesting..

    So- if an NFL team were to fire/dismiss/pick your verb a player for kneeling, what would be the ramifications?


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    Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

    Yawn.

    https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-first-amendment-and-restricting-professional-athlete-protests

    Also:

    In Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) that laws against burning or otherwise desecrating the American flag were considered unconstitutional.

    The Court held: “Recognizing that the right to differ is the centerpiece of our First Amendment freedoms, a government cannot mandate by fiat a feeling of unity in its citizens. Therefore that very same government cannot carve out a symbol of unity and prescribe a set of approved messages to be associated with that symbol.”

    The only speech not protected in this manner is speech that breaches the peace, speech that incites “imminent lawless action,” according to Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969). This was Charlottesville, for example.


    Interesting..

    So- if an NFL team were to fire/dismiss/pick your verb a player for kneeling, what would be the ramifications?


     
    Dsn150
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    Posted: Sep. 26, 2017 - 11:44 PM ET #78

    Even more interesting- what if no-one signed him/her because of kneeling?
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    Even more interesting- what if no-one signed him/her because of kneeling?
     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 12:03 AM ET #79

    Well....

    to start, it would have to be determined that he was released because of kneeling because most NFL contracts are not guaranteed (meaning, he would have no legal recourse). 

    If it was shown that he was dismissed because of kneeling, I expect the matter would be litigated in Federal Court with the arguments essentially being free speech / right to peaceful assembly vs. interference with business / employment (an argument growing stronger, mind you, with fan boycotts and Direct TV allowing people to cancel the NFL package). 

    As for collusion, good luck, Those lawsuits rarely work. 
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    Well....

    to start, it would have to be determined that he was released because of kneeling because most NFL contracts are not guaranteed (meaning, he would have no legal recourse). 

    If it was shown that he was dismissed because of kneeling, I expect the matter would be litigated in Federal Court with the arguments essentially being free speech / right to peaceful assembly vs. interference with business / employment (an argument growing stronger, mind you, with fan boycotts and Direct TV allowing people to cancel the NFL package). 

    As for collusion, good luck, Those lawsuits rarely work. 
     
    Dsn150
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 12:07 AM ET #80

    Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

    Well....

    to start, it would have to be determined that he was released because of kneeling because most NFL contracts are not guaranteed (meaning, he would have no legal recourse). 

    If it was shown that he was dismissed because of kneeling, I expect the matter would be litigated in Federal Court with the arguments essentially being free speech / right to peaceful assembly vs. interference with business / employment (an argument growing stronger, mind you, with fan boycotts and Direct TV allowing people to cancel the NFL package). 

    As for collusion, good luck, Those lawsuits rarely work. 


    So, to the bigger point- in my mind, a player has the "right" to kneel, but an employer has a "right" to terminate based on that action-
    That would be as you described argued in federal court-

    How do you see that playing out?
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

    Well....

    to start, it would have to be determined that he was released because of kneeling because most NFL contracts are not guaranteed (meaning, he would have no legal recourse). 

    If it was shown that he was dismissed because of kneeling, I expect the matter would be litigated in Federal Court with the arguments essentially being free speech / right to peaceful assembly vs. interference with business / employment (an argument growing stronger, mind you, with fan boycotts and Direct TV allowing people to cancel the NFL package). 

    As for collusion, good luck, Those lawsuits rarely work. 


    So, to the bigger point- in my mind, a player has the "right" to kneel, but an employer has a "right" to terminate based on that action-
    That would be as you described argued in federal court-

    How do you see that playing out?
     
    shiek
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 1:03 AM ET #81

    DJ you didn't pick up on detoxs point "govt action".  The case you cited referenced "a law" hence govt action.   The Nfl is not a govt and hence as long as it is not violating 1 of the discrimination statutes (i.e. Religion) it can basically create whatever rules it wants.   R u practicing law without a license???
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    DJ you didn't pick up on detoxs point "govt action".  The case you cited referenced "a law" hence govt action.   The Nfl is not a govt and hence as long as it is not violating 1 of the discrimination statutes (i.e. Religion) it can basically create whatever rules it wants.   R u practicing law without a license???
     
    Europa
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 1:21 AM ET #82

    Quote Originally Posted by ilsp2003:

    Oh come on covers

    the President of the United States called NFL players kneeling during the national anthem "Sons of B I T C H E S" not sons of  girl  

    Please  censor the President of the United States because he is embarrassing the Office of the President of the United States 

    Be careful guys, he might grab by the p***. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilsp2003:

    Oh come on covers

    the President of the United States called NFL players kneeling during the national anthem "Sons of B I T C H E S" not sons of  girl  

    Please  censor the President of the United States because he is embarrassing the Office of the President of the United States 

    Be careful guys, he might grab by the p***. 
     
    bunny651
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 1:35 AM ET #83

    I don't support the players' action but  Trump has a problem with that? He has shown he has absolutely no respect for anything(laws, military...etc) but himself. He is just playing to his "base"......

    I have never seen a President be this divisive, more than Bush and Obama combined.
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    I don't support the players' action but  Trump has a problem with that? He has shown he has absolutely no respect for anything(laws, military...etc) but himself. He is just playing to his "base"......

    I have never seen a President be this divisive, more than Bush and Obama combined.
     
    ilsp2003
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 1:46 AM ET #84

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    NFL players do not have the right to protest by kneeling during the national anthem. They are ALLOWED to.



    Are you NFL spokesman ?
    According NFL spokesman Joe Lockhart(during a conference call with reporters on Sept. 25)

    there will be no discipline handed down this week.We also believe our players have a right to express themselves.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/09/25/no-discipline-for-anthem-skipping-teams-as-nfl-fires-back-at-trump/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_discipline-1230p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.79289c6939d6



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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    NFL players do not have the right to protest by kneeling during the national anthem. They are ALLOWED to.



    Are you NFL spokesman ?
    According NFL spokesman Joe Lockhart(during a conference call with reporters on Sept. 25)

    there will be no discipline handed down this week.We also believe our players have a right to express themselves.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/09/25/no-discipline-for-anthem-skipping-teams-as-nfl-fires-back-at-trump/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_discipline-1230p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.79289c6939d6



     
    ilsp2003
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 1:53 AM ET #85

    The NFL’s game operations manual says that “all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.”


    It also says: “Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”


    The NFL is waiving such discipline after a weekend in which Commissioner Roger Goodell, owners of teams, players and others reacted forcefully to comments made Friday by President Trump, who said at a campaign rally in Alabama that owners should fire players who refuse to stand for the national anthem as a means of protest.


    “We also believe our players have a right to express themselves,” Lockhart said.

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    The NFL’s game operations manual says that “all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.”


    It also says: “Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”


    The NFL is waiving such discipline after a weekend in which Commissioner Roger Goodell, owners of teams, players and others reacted forcefully to comments made Friday by President Trump, who said at a campaign rally in Alabama that owners should fire players who refuse to stand for the national anthem as a means of protest.


    “We also believe our players have a right to express themselves,” Lockhart said.

     
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 8:17 AM ET #86

    NFL players clearly don't have the right to express themselves. At this moment, on this issue, the NFL is allowing the players to express themselves. 

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    NFL players clearly don't have the right to express themselves. At this moment, on this issue, the NFL is allowing the players to express themselves. 

     
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 8:26 AM ET #87

    Quote Originally Posted by bunny651:

    I don't support the players' action but  Trump has a problem with that? He has shown he has absolutely no respect for anything(laws, military...etc) but himself. He is just playing to his "base"......

    I have never seen a President be this divisive, more than Bush and Obama combined.

    Now not even patriotism is safe from liberal culture wars. They want to tear down what holds us ALL together.

    Obama was by far the most divisive President. TRUMP is trying to bring us all together as Americans. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunny651:

    I don't support the players' action but  Trump has a problem with that? He has shown he has absolutely no respect for anything(laws, military...etc) but himself. He is just playing to his "base"......

    I have never seen a President be this divisive, more than Bush and Obama combined.

    Now not even patriotism is safe from liberal culture wars. They want to tear down what holds us ALL together.

    Obama was by far the most divisive President. TRUMP is trying to bring us all together as Americans. 

     
    Ramanujan
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 6:31 PM ET #88

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:


    Now not even patriotism is safe from liberal culture wars. They want to tear down what holds us ALL together.

    Obama was by far the most divisive President. TRUMP is trying to bring us all together as Americans. 


    So how is he doing in this regard would you say?

    Does America seem more or less divided than when he took office?

    I can tell you what it looks like from outside....
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:


    Now not even patriotism is safe from liberal culture wars. They want to tear down what holds us ALL together.

    Obama was by far the most divisive President. TRUMP is trying to bring us all together as Americans. 


    So how is he doing in this regard would you say?

    Does America seem more or less divided than when he took office?

    I can tell you what it looks like from outside....
     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 10:27 PM ET #89

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:


    Now not even patriotism is safe from liberal culture wars. They want to tear down what holds us ALL together.

    Obama was by far the most divisive President. TRUMP is trying to bring us all together as Americans. 


    Whose us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:


    Now not even patriotism is safe from liberal culture wars. They want to tear down what holds us ALL together.

    Obama was by far the most divisive President. TRUMP is trying to bring us all together as Americans. 


    Whose us?

     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 10:31 PM ET #90

    Quote Originally Posted by shiek:

    DJ you didn't pick up on detoxs point "govt action".  The case you cited referenced "a law" hence govt action.   The Nfl is not a govt and hence as long as it is not violating 1 of the discrimination statutes (i.e. Religion) it can basically create whatever rules it wants.   R u practicing law without a license???

    You are playing with the big boys here son. You should be a little more learned than this. 

    This cases I cited outline what is protected. And yes, it is protected by the Bill of Rights. If I am wrong, (like Detox), an employee could make you wear a cross or sing a Christmas carol. 


    If you want an easy answer to this, can any employer make an employee sing God Bless America?

    Yes or no? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiek:

    DJ you didn't pick up on detoxs point "govt action".  The case you cited referenced "a law" hence govt action.   The Nfl is not a govt and hence as long as it is not violating 1 of the discrimination statutes (i.e. Religion) it can basically create whatever rules it wants.   R u practicing law without a license???

    You are playing with the big boys here son. You should be a little more learned than this. 

    This cases I cited outline what is protected. And yes, it is protected by the Bill of Rights. If I am wrong, (like Detox), an employee could make you wear a cross or sing a Christmas carol. 


    If you want an easy answer to this, can any employer make an employee sing God Bless America?

    Yes or no? 
     
    shiek
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 11:14 PM ET #91

    Big boys u r kidding right.   U obviously didn't read my post because as I noted the exception if u were violating 1 of the discrimination acts, of which religion is covered by the civil rights act of 1964.  Thus, arguably an employee could say that u were discriminating against him based on his religious beliefs my making him sing god bless America.  The discrimination statutes apply to both public and private employers( of certain sizes), whereas generally there is considered to be no freedom of speech protection for private employers.    It also depends on what the employer policy provides, whether there is a union contact, and whether you are operating in a right to work state.   Not sure where u r going w this
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    Big boys u r kidding right.   U obviously didn't read my post because as I noted the exception if u were violating 1 of the discrimination acts, of which religion is covered by the civil rights act of 1964.  Thus, arguably an employee could say that u were discriminating against him based on his religious beliefs my making him sing god bless America.  The discrimination statutes apply to both public and private employers( of certain sizes), whereas generally there is considered to be no freedom of speech protection for private employers.    It also depends on what the employer policy provides, whether there is a union contact, and whether you are operating in a right to work state.   Not sure where u r going w this
     
    I_Need_A_Detox
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 11:22 PM ET #92

    Whose? 

    Intellectuals would use better grammar than that. 

    Ask me using proper grammar and I'll be happy to answer your question. 

    Thank you. 

    Sincerely, 

    Professor Detox 

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    Whose? 

    Intellectuals would use better grammar than that. 

    Ask me using proper grammar and I'll be happy to answer your question. 

    Thank you. 

    Sincerely, 

    Professor Detox 

     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 27, 2017 - 11:30 PM ET #93

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    Whose? 

    Intellectuals would use better grammar than that. 

    Ask me using proper grammar and I'll be happy to answer your question. 

    Thank you. 

    Sincerely, 

    Professor Detox 




    https://www.dictionary.com/e/whose-vs-whos/


    Professor of white studies perhaps 

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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    Whose? 

    Intellectuals would use better grammar than that. 

    Ask me using proper grammar and I'll be happy to answer your question. 

    Thank you. 

    Sincerely, 

    Professor Detox 




    https://www.dictionary.com/e/whose-vs-whos/


    Professor of white studies perhaps 

     
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 12:16 AM ET #94

    Who's us? 




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    Who's us? 




     
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 9:59 AM ET #95

    1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

    What are NFL players protesting? 

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    1,502 people have been shot and killed by on-duty police officers since Jan. 1, 2015. Of them, 732 were white, and 381 were black (and 382 were of another or unknown race).

    What are NFL players protesting? 

     
    Ktrain
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 12:08 PM ET #96

    Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


    Whose us?


    What do you mean "us"? 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1iV24hL8Rk

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    Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


    Whose us?


    What do you mean "us"? 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1iV24hL8Rk

     
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 12:13 PM ET #97

    Would the NFL/Democrats feel the same way about "free speech" if a few players waved the confederate flag?

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    Would the NFL/Democrats feel the same way about "free speech" if a few players waved the confederate flag?

     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 2:06 PM ET #98

    Equating waiving a decivise flag with an individual not standing 

    Omg, you cannot make this stuff up 
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    Equating waiving a decivise flag with an individual not standing 

    Omg, you cannot make this stuff up 
     
    I_Need_A_Detox
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 2:25 PM ET #99

    See. Their "rights" just went out the window. 

    Democrats are funny. 

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    See. Their "rights" just went out the window. 

    Democrats are funny. 

     
     
    djbrow
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    Posted: Sep. 28, 2017 - 3:22 PM ET #100

    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    See. Their "rights" just went out the window. 

    Democrats are funny. 


     Actually, you are completely wrong. I believe an NFL player has a right to waive the Confederate flag if he wishes. 

     I believe he would be fired, or released for doing so, and could potential litigate the issue after.

    Just as I believe an NFL team can waive or release a player for not standing for the national anthem, and he could litigate the issue. I said this in another thread.

    You see, the difference between you and I, other than at least 100 IQ points, is that I can understand things from a neutral and non-emotional perspective and analyze them using rational reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_Need_A_Detox:

    See. Their "rights" just went out the window. 

    Democrats are funny. 


     Actually, you are completely wrong. I believe an NFL player has a right to waive the Confederate flag if he wishes. 

     I believe he would be fired, or released for doing so, and could potential litigate the issue after.

    Just as I believe an NFL team can waive or release a player for not standing for the national anthem, and he could litigate the issue. I said this in another thread.

    You see, the difference between you and I, other than at least 100 IQ points, is that I can understand things from a neutral and non-emotional perspective and analyze them using rational reason.
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