Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a concept or thing.
You have confident trust in this statment "I reject the notion that it is possible to know these things at this point in time of human history".
...and you are basing your life on that belief just like i am in my beliefs.
Alright fine - you win the semantics battle.
I have more "faith" in replicable evidence than I have "faith" in religion.
Does that make you happy, or advance your position at all - or is this just an excercise in extremely low budget and not gratifying mental masturbation?
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a concept or thing.
You have confident trust in this statment "I reject the notion that it is possible to know these things at this point in time of human history".
...and you are basing your life on that belief just like i am in my beliefs.
Alright fine - you win the semantics battle.
I have more "faith" in replicable evidence than I have "faith" in religion.
Does that make you happy, or advance your position at all - or is this just an excercise in extremely low budget and not gratifying mental masturbation?
I love how Sims - and everyone else ignores this paragraph - I wrote it earlier in the thread and nobody touched it - and nobody will touch it again:
But yet you dont really, you are a fake believer. If you were a true believer in Jesus, you wouldnt be wasting time on a gambling website, you would be working to help the world. You dont really believe, you like 99.9% of people who say they believe just hedge your bets and hope that partially believing - enough to say you believe without doing any real action or actually living the life that you should be living - will be enough to get you where you want to go when you die. Face it, you dont really believe it all - or you wouldnt be here - you wouldnt have that job - you wouldnt have that car - Jesus would be appalled with you and your lifestyle.
BTW - 3rd request. Someone take a swipe at the above, or the paragraph below. Please. I would love to hear how Jesus loves your trolling a gambling website, and how Jesus would deem the hours you spent here as acceptable instead of helping the world.
The fact that they are on covers, or own a computer in the first place - would make Jesus ill.
I hate to break it to the Christians out there, but if they actually read the Bible, particularly what Jesus said and how he lived - he would be appalled by todays capitalist kill or be killed society. A luxury item like a computer would cause him to tell you that you should sell it and get back to doing something important, like helping the poor and disadvantaged.
The fact that "christians" have enough time to waste on a gambling website is so hypocritical I dont even know where to start. Jesus would condemn this monumental waste of time, along with all of your material possessions and lack of helping your fellow man.
The real problem with christianity is that christ has been taken out of it by the church. It should just be called "ianity", there is no christ in todays christians. Jesus would be sick about you with your car, your house, your food - while half of the world is homeless and hungry - and you do nothing about it except pray to him that you will be able to buy a nicer car or have better food. What do you think Jesus would say about that? Christians in this country have a crisis when they cant pay their mortgage, or cant buy organic produce - what do you think a benevolent god thinks of your incredible selfishness when you pray for YOUR life to get better? Dont you think Jesus would tell you to sell all of your stuff and start hitting the streets to make a difference?
So I dont take these fake christians too seriously. They have lost the message. In fact, I find that non-believers are closer to Jesus and the way he lived than most christians - they have been hijacked to believe that Jesus is in favor of materialism and survival of the fittest. Jesus was not a survival of the fittest type of guy. Jesus was a survival of the masses type of guy.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
I love how Sims - and everyone else ignores this paragraph - I wrote it earlier in the thread and nobody touched it - and nobody will touch it again:
But yet you dont really, you are a fake believer. If you were a true believer in Jesus, you wouldnt be wasting time on a gambling website, you would be working to help the world. You dont really believe, you like 99.9% of people who say they believe just hedge your bets and hope that partially believing - enough to say you believe without doing any real action or actually living the life that you should be living - will be enough to get you where you want to go when you die. Face it, you dont really believe it all - or you wouldnt be here - you wouldnt have that job - you wouldnt have that car - Jesus would be appalled with you and your lifestyle.
BTW - 3rd request. Someone take a swipe at the above, or the paragraph below. Please. I would love to hear how Jesus loves your trolling a gambling website, and how Jesus would deem the hours you spent here as acceptable instead of helping the world.
The fact that they are on covers, or own a computer in the first place - would make Jesus ill.
I hate to break it to the Christians out there, but if they actually read the Bible, particularly what Jesus said and how he lived - he would be appalled by todays capitalist kill or be killed society. A luxury item like a computer would cause him to tell you that you should sell it and get back to doing something important, like helping the poor and disadvantaged.
The fact that "christians" have enough time to waste on a gambling website is so hypocritical I dont even know where to start. Jesus would condemn this monumental waste of time, along with all of your material possessions and lack of helping your fellow man.
The real problem with christianity is that christ has been taken out of it by the church. It should just be called "ianity", there is no christ in todays christians. Jesus would be sick about you with your car, your house, your food - while half of the world is homeless and hungry - and you do nothing about it except pray to him that you will be able to buy a nicer car or have better food. What do you think Jesus would say about that? Christians in this country have a crisis when they cant pay their mortgage, or cant buy organic produce - what do you think a benevolent god thinks of your incredible selfishness when you pray for YOUR life to get better? Dont you think Jesus would tell you to sell all of your stuff and start hitting the streets to make a difference?
So I dont take these fake christians too seriously. They have lost the message. In fact, I find that non-believers are closer to Jesus and the way he lived than most christians - they have been hijacked to believe that Jesus is in favor of materialism and survival of the fittest. Jesus was not a survival of the fittest type of guy. Jesus was a survival of the masses type of guy.
like i said earlier...that paragraph that you requoted is way past foundational logic.
that has to do with the outworking of a belief system, not the foundations of the belief system itself.
Fine. But you are a representative of this belief system, and as a representative who states he believes - your actions clearly show differently. So you are a hypocrite or a liar - there is no other alternative - and as a hypocrite or a liar - your opinions and facts presented in a debate are logically discounted.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
like i said earlier...that paragraph that you requoted is way past foundational logic.
that has to do with the outworking of a belief system, not the foundations of the belief system itself.
Fine. But you are a representative of this belief system, and as a representative who states he believes - your actions clearly show differently. So you are a hypocrite or a liar - there is no other alternative - and as a hypocrite or a liar - your opinions and facts presented in a debate are logically discounted.
Sims - Sorry pal, you are way out of your depth here.
Im not trying to persuade you to abandon your beliefs, but if you are choosing to participate in a debate - you have to at least bring something of value. I cant keep debating at this level, you are not addressing my points, and are not following logical channels - you start down one road and abandon it after I spend time to answer you - thinking you are going to make a point - but you never do - and it is tedious.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Sims - Sorry pal, you are way out of your depth here.
Im not trying to persuade you to abandon your beliefs, but if you are choosing to participate in a debate - you have to at least bring something of value. I cant keep debating at this level, you are not addressing my points, and are not following logical channels - you start down one road and abandon it after I spend time to answer you - thinking you are going to make a point - but you never do - and it is tedious.
Fine. But you are a representative of this belief system, and as a representative who states he believes - your actions clearly show differently. So you are a hypocrite or a liar - there is no other alternative - and as a hypocrite or a liar - your opinions and facts presented in a debate are logically discounted.
i am absolutely a hypocrite...for the record. and i sometimes lie too.
that has nothing to do with foundational logic. why does it matter if i am a hypocrite or not?
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Fine. But you are a representative of this belief system, and as a representative who states he believes - your actions clearly show differently. So you are a hypocrite or a liar - there is no other alternative - and as a hypocrite or a liar - your opinions and facts presented in a debate are logically discounted.
i am absolutely a hypocrite...for the record. and i sometimes lie too.
that has nothing to do with foundational logic. why does it matter if i am a hypocrite or not?
i am absolutely a hypocrite...for the record. and i sometimes lie too.
that has nothing to do with foundational logic. why does it matter if i am a hypocrite or not?
1. You (and everyone here on your side of the debate) claim to believe that under the penalty of everlasting torture, you believe in god and Jesus.
2. You continuously ignore the commandments given to you, as evidenced by your lifestyle and you wasting valuable time posting here.
3. Any observer would come to the conclusion, that given the extreme stakes - you dont really fully believe what you say you do.
Does that disprove Jesus, the bible, or any god? Of course not. But it is of interest that a huge majority of religious people are phonies. You cant fully believe what you are saying in this thread, because 75 years here of service for eternal rewards is an extremely cheap bargain - but you arent even willing to give 75 years - you are only willing to give what you justify as enough to let you sleep at night thinking you will join the boogeyman in paradise instead of the boogeyman in torment.
It is really interesting.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
i am absolutely a hypocrite...for the record. and i sometimes lie too.
that has nothing to do with foundational logic. why does it matter if i am a hypocrite or not?
1. You (and everyone here on your side of the debate) claim to believe that under the penalty of everlasting torture, you believe in god and Jesus.
2. You continuously ignore the commandments given to you, as evidenced by your lifestyle and you wasting valuable time posting here.
3. Any observer would come to the conclusion, that given the extreme stakes - you dont really fully believe what you say you do.
Does that disprove Jesus, the bible, or any god? Of course not. But it is of interest that a huge majority of religious people are phonies. You cant fully believe what you are saying in this thread, because 75 years here of service for eternal rewards is an extremely cheap bargain - but you arent even willing to give 75 years - you are only willing to give what you justify as enough to let you sleep at night thinking you will join the boogeyman in paradise instead of the boogeyman in torment.
Sims - Sorry pal, you are way out of your depth here.
Im not trying to persuade you to abandon your beliefs, but if you are choosing to participate in a debate - you have to at least bring something of value. I cant keep debating at this level, you are not addressing my points, and are not following logical channels - you start down one road and abandon it after I spend time to answer you - thinking you are going to make a point - but you never do - and it is tedious.
sorry i can't debate on your level. just trying to engage bro.
btw - you are never going to be able to have an honest debate by just calling people stupid and using emoticons.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Sims - Sorry pal, you are way out of your depth here.
Im not trying to persuade you to abandon your beliefs, but if you are choosing to participate in a debate - you have to at least bring something of value. I cant keep debating at this level, you are not addressing my points, and are not following logical channels - you start down one road and abandon it after I spend time to answer you - thinking you are going to make a point - but you never do - and it is tedious.
sorry i can't debate on your level. just trying to engage bro.
btw - you are never going to be able to have an honest debate by just calling people stupid and using emoticons.
my point is that you can not criticize a belief system that takes faith when you based your "belief system" on faith as well.
why do i have to prove my belief system but you don't?
prove that the bible is not true or that jesus did not rise from the dead.
Sir -
Once again you are ignoring the concept of degree.
According to your position above, someone who claims that a specific ant created the universe has as much credibility as you saying Jesus and God created the universe. You cant disprove them, and they cant disprove you.
The funny part of this is that you have effectively put your theory of god and jesus on the same level as every theory out there. You cannot debate that yours is right or better, but you can only debate that yours is the same - based on the rules you outline above. So Jesus is the same as an ant, a piece of dust - or a homeless guy who claims he is god.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
0
Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
my point is that you can not criticize a belief system that takes faith when you based your "belief system" on faith as well.
why do i have to prove my belief system but you don't?
prove that the bible is not true or that jesus did not rise from the dead.
Sir -
Once again you are ignoring the concept of degree.
According to your position above, someone who claims that a specific ant created the universe has as much credibility as you saying Jesus and God created the universe. You cant disprove them, and they cant disprove you.
The funny part of this is that you have effectively put your theory of god and jesus on the same level as every theory out there. You cannot debate that yours is right or better, but you can only debate that yours is the same - based on the rules you outline above. So Jesus is the same as an ant, a piece of dust - or a homeless guy who claims he is god.
1. You (and everyone here on your side of the debate) claim to believe that under the penalty of everlasting torture, you believe in god and Jesus.
2. You continuously ignore the commandments given to you, as evidenced by your lifestyle and you wasting valuable time posting here.
3. Any observer would come to the conclusion, that given the extreme stakes - you dont really fully believe what you say you do.
Does that disprove Jesus, the bible, or any god? Of course not. But it is of interest that a huge majority of religious people are phonies. You cant fully believe what you are saying in this thread, because 75 years here of service for eternal rewards is an extremely cheap bargain - but you arent even willing to give 75 years - you are only willing to give what you justify as enough to let you sleep at night thinking you will join the boogeyman in paradise instead of the boogeyman in torment.
It is really interesting.
yeah, i am a complete failure as a christian. i sleep at night b/c i believe in Jesus not my good works. i am worth nothing. i am very glad i don't have to believe in myself.
you telling me i am a failure is not hurting my self-esteem though. i am trying to have a logical debate.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
1. You (and everyone here on your side of the debate) claim to believe that under the penalty of everlasting torture, you believe in god and Jesus.
2. You continuously ignore the commandments given to you, as evidenced by your lifestyle and you wasting valuable time posting here.
3. Any observer would come to the conclusion, that given the extreme stakes - you dont really fully believe what you say you do.
Does that disprove Jesus, the bible, or any god? Of course not. But it is of interest that a huge majority of religious people are phonies. You cant fully believe what you are saying in this thread, because 75 years here of service for eternal rewards is an extremely cheap bargain - but you arent even willing to give 75 years - you are only willing to give what you justify as enough to let you sleep at night thinking you will join the boogeyman in paradise instead of the boogeyman in torment.
It is really interesting.
yeah, i am a complete failure as a christian. i sleep at night b/c i believe in Jesus not my good works. i am worth nothing. i am very glad i don't have to believe in myself.
you telling me i am a failure is not hurting my self-esteem though. i am trying to have a logical debate.
yeah, i am a complete failure as a christian. i sleep at night b/c i believe in Jesus not my good works. i am worth nothing. i am very glad i don't have to believe in myself.
you telling me i am a failure is not hurting my self-esteem though. i am trying to have a logical debate.
So why dont you sell all of your stuff, stop wasting your time here, and go help the needy? You know that is what Jesus wants you to do. Why dont you do it? I am serious here.
I would say it is because you dont fully believe it. Tell me differently. Jesus and the God of your Bible certainly dont approve of you spending the last 4 years of your life posting on covers.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
yeah, i am a complete failure as a christian. i sleep at night b/c i believe in Jesus not my good works. i am worth nothing. i am very glad i don't have to believe in myself.
you telling me i am a failure is not hurting my self-esteem though. i am trying to have a logical debate.
So why dont you sell all of your stuff, stop wasting your time here, and go help the needy? You know that is what Jesus wants you to do. Why dont you do it? I am serious here.
I would say it is because you dont fully believe it. Tell me differently. Jesus and the God of your Bible certainly dont approve of you spending the last 4 years of your life posting on covers.
Once again you are ignoring the concept of degree.
According to your position above, someone who claims that a specific ant created the universe has as much credibility as you saying Jesus and God created the universe. You cant disprove them, and they cant disprove you.
The funny part of this is that you have effectively put your theory of god and jesus on the same level as every theory out there. You cannot debate that yours is right or better, but you can only debate that yours is the same - based on the rules you outline above. So Jesus is the same as an ant, a piece of dust - or a homeless guy who claims he is god.
you are right, foundationally, every belief system (even yours) is no more viable that any others, so you have to decided for yourself.
like i first said, jesus is either a savior or a lunatic (like the homeless man). i happen to believe in the historical accuracy of jesus and believe that what he says is true. that is my decision. you have a belief system that tells you differently. neither can be proved beyond a shadow of doubt.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Sir -
Once again you are ignoring the concept of degree.
According to your position above, someone who claims that a specific ant created the universe has as much credibility as you saying Jesus and God created the universe. You cant disprove them, and they cant disprove you.
The funny part of this is that you have effectively put your theory of god and jesus on the same level as every theory out there. You cannot debate that yours is right or better, but you can only debate that yours is the same - based on the rules you outline above. So Jesus is the same as an ant, a piece of dust - or a homeless guy who claims he is god.
you are right, foundationally, every belief system (even yours) is no more viable that any others, so you have to decided for yourself.
like i first said, jesus is either a savior or a lunatic (like the homeless man). i happen to believe in the historical accuracy of jesus and believe that what he says is true. that is my decision. you have a belief system that tells you differently. neither can be proved beyond a shadow of doubt.
yeah, i am a complete failure as a christian. i sleep at night b/c i believe in Jesus not my good works. i am worth nothing. i am very glad i don't have to believe in myself.
you telling me i am a failure is not hurting my self-esteem though. i am trying to have a logical debate.
And isnt that the Christian way.
Knowingly ignore of defy what your god wants you to do, chalk it up to your own imperfection, ask for forgiveness - repeat cycle.
That seems like one gigantic basket of not fully believing to me.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
yeah, i am a complete failure as a christian. i sleep at night b/c i believe in Jesus not my good works. i am worth nothing. i am very glad i don't have to believe in myself.
you telling me i am a failure is not hurting my self-esteem though. i am trying to have a logical debate.
And isnt that the Christian way.
Knowingly ignore of defy what your god wants you to do, chalk it up to your own imperfection, ask for forgiveness - repeat cycle.
That seems like one gigantic basket of not fully believing to me.
So why dont you sell all of your stuff, stop wasting your time here, and go help the needy? You know that is what Jesus wants you to do. Why dont you do it? I am serious here.
I would say it is because you dont fully believe it. Tell me differently. Jesus and the God of your Bible certainly dont approve of you spending the last 4 years of your life posting on covers.
i hope that my life is used to better others. i give 15% of my income and a ton of time to my church, which hopes to be a beacon of good works and hope for the city of berkeley and oakland. i hope that i can develop money and talents so that i can make others better. i believe that is what God has called us to.
sure i waste a lot of time on here and should be on here less, but being entertained in general is not a sin.
i don't know what else you want me to say.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
So why dont you sell all of your stuff, stop wasting your time here, and go help the needy? You know that is what Jesus wants you to do. Why dont you do it? I am serious here.
I would say it is because you dont fully believe it. Tell me differently. Jesus and the God of your Bible certainly dont approve of you spending the last 4 years of your life posting on covers.
i hope that my life is used to better others. i give 15% of my income and a ton of time to my church, which hopes to be a beacon of good works and hope for the city of berkeley and oakland. i hope that i can develop money and talents so that i can make others better. i believe that is what God has called us to.
sure i waste a lot of time on here and should be on here less, but being entertained in general is not a sin.
but before you get to trying to disprove those, you better figure out jesus first and then move to the other tough things. not believing in jonah's story has zero consequences for your life.
nor does believing in jesus
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Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:
what am i ignoring? why don't you disprove it?
but before you get to trying to disprove those, you better figure out jesus first and then move to the other tough things. not believing in jonah's story has zero consequences for your life.
Hate? Come on. There is no hate. I know you as a christian love to feel persecuted, but there is no hate here.
There is no restrictive world view in my position. I reject anyone who says that they know where we came from, why we are here, and what god is the correct god. I reject them because I reject the notion that it is possible to know these things at this point in time of human history.
What is so difficult to understand about that? The funny thing is that out of the thousands of religions, you are positive that your god and your book and your beliefs are correct.
But yet you dont really, you are a fake believer. If you were a true believer in Jesus, you wouldnt be wasting time on a gambling website, you would be working to help the world. You dont really believe, you like 99.9% of people who say they believe just hedge your bets and hope that partially believing - enough to say you believe without doing any real action or actually living the life that you should be living - will be enough to get you where you want to go when you die. Face it, you dont really believe it all - or you wouldnt be here - you wouldnt have that job - you wouldnt have that car - Jesus would be appalled with you and your lifestyle.
amen...keep preaching van
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
Hate? Come on. There is no hate. I know you as a christian love to feel persecuted, but there is no hate here.
There is no restrictive world view in my position. I reject anyone who says that they know where we came from, why we are here, and what god is the correct god. I reject them because I reject the notion that it is possible to know these things at this point in time of human history.
What is so difficult to understand about that? The funny thing is that out of the thousands of religions, you are positive that your god and your book and your beliefs are correct.
But yet you dont really, you are a fake believer. If you were a true believer in Jesus, you wouldnt be wasting time on a gambling website, you would be working to help the world. You dont really believe, you like 99.9% of people who say they believe just hedge your bets and hope that partially believing - enough to say you believe without doing any real action or actually living the life that you should be living - will be enough to get you where you want to go when you die. Face it, you dont really believe it all - or you wouldnt be here - you wouldnt have that job - you wouldnt have that car - Jesus would be appalled with you and your lifestyle.
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