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Carrier...from a Hoosier

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Posted: #26
Quote Originally Posted by DogbiteWilliams:

Alan, you have voiced your concern for the middle class.  We certainly are in accordance on that.

Parent company United Technologies had a NET INCOME of $7.6 billion in 2015\, and they certainly take care of their fat cats.  Former CEO Louis Chenevert left in 2015 with an estimated $195 million in company stock and pension benefits.  I bet he could have managed to scrape by with $100 million and saved some jobs with the rest.

https://fortune.com/2015/02/06/united-technologies-exit-pay/

I would love to see some evidence that the executives, whose bad decisions undoubtedly had some unfavorable consequences, also bear some financial reversals.  Shared sacrifice would at least imply some sense of fair play.  I would hate to think that Carrier takes all that taxpayer money, saves some jobs, lays off a bunch of people and still awards their executives lavish bonuses, stock options and pension benefits.

I couldn't agree more.  As someone who runs a small business, when I make a bad decision it hurts me and the contractors that work for me.  It hurts financially, and emotionally.  I found out this week that I am losing two of my full time TV shows for 2017.  That crushes one of my full time guys who does all the editing for those shows.  Now I have to fight hard to come up with more income to replace that with, and I don't have my local government chipping in tax breaks to assist me.  But that big company that runs the inefficient factory down the street from me gets assistance from the taxpayers, and their national corporation gets to keep their profits and the CEO gets to keep his hundreds of millions.  

Of course I support successful big businesses.  They are vital to society, and they provide income and benefits to workers.  They are a necessity, and when they succeed...the employees are supposed to as well.

But knowing how hard I work to maintain my small business, it irks the sh*t out of me to see the bonuses some of these CEO's make, and some of the profits the businesses make and then get government assistance.  

I don't know what the answer is, but I would really like to see a President and/or Congress (maybe this regime, but I'm skeptical) make some type of deal with businesses that gives incredible tax breaks to big companies, but only if they are able to create a certain percentage of jobs based on their profits.  Or that they reinvest a certain percentage into the cities.  Something that really, truly rewards big companies for investing in the people and societies that allow them to exist.  

I chose to run a small business and take the chance that I will survive and ultimately succeed.  I know the risks, I understand them, and I knew what I was getting into, and I wouldn't change it for anything.  I've never had a job at a company and I probably never will.  It's not for me.  But I just can't help but to feel a little bothered by watching another big company get even more government assistance.

I don't know the exact answer, and unfortunately I haven't heard anyone that convinces me they know the answer as well.  But again...I'm an optimist 
 
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Posted: #27
Quote Originally Posted by bettingforfun:

One of the most worthwhile posts I think I have ever taken the time to read on here.


Thank you very much.  Wasn't easy to write all that out, but I feel like if it creates positive thought and discussion...I'm happy to do it.  
 
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Posted: #28
Quote Originally Posted by alangrrbs:


I couldn't agree more.  As someone who runs a small business, when I make a bad decision it hurts me and the contractors that work for me.  It hurts financially, and emotionally.  I found out this week that I am losing two of my full time TV shows for 2017.  That crushes one of my full time guys who does all the editing for those shows.  Now I have to fight hard to come up with more income to replace that with, and I don't have my local government chipping in tax breaks to assist me.  But that big company that runs the inefficient factory down the street from me gets assistance from the taxpayers, and their national corporation gets to keep their profits and the CEO gets to keep his hundreds of millions.  

Of course I support successful big businesses.  They are vital to society, and they provide income and benefits to workers.  They are a necessity, and when they succeed...the employees are supposed to as well.

But knowing how hard I work to maintain my small business, it irks the sh*t out of me to see the bonuses some of these CEO's make, and some of the profits the businesses make and then get government assistance.  

I don't know what the answer is, but I would really like to see a President and/or Congress (maybe this regime, but I'm skeptical) make some type of deal with businesses that gives incredible tax breaks to big companies, but only if they are able to create a certain percentage of jobs based on their profits.  Or that they reinvest a certain percentage into the cities.  Something that really, truly rewards big companies for investing in the people and societies that allow them to exist.  

I chose to run a small business and take the chance that I will survive and ultimately succeed.  I know the risks, I understand them, and I knew what I was getting into, and I wouldn't change it for anything.  I've never had a job at a company and I probably never will.  It's not for me.  But I just can't help but to feel a little bothered by watching another big company get even more government assistance.

I don't know the exact answer, and unfortunately I haven't heard anyone that convinces me they know the answer as well.  But again...I'm an optimist 

Right on the money alan.  I still think it's funny how Obama bails out the auto industry and saves jobs the Repubs don't like that but Pence/Trump save 1k in jobs by way of a tax bribe and Trump is a hero.  Hypocrisy anyone???
 
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Posted: #29
Quote Originally Posted by bettingforfun:


Right on the money alan.  I still think it's funny how Obama bails out the auto industry and saves jobs the Repubs don't like that but Pence/Trump save 1k in jobs by way of a tax bribe and Trump is a hero.  Hypocrisy anyone???


I see a difference between using taxpayer money to save a private, politically connected business that has failed due to poor management and offering tax incentives to a successful business in order to keep that successful business from taking jobs out of the country.
 
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Posted: #30
Because of course it would be a total aberration for the government to get involved and influence certain business markets...The only thing different here is its a Republican (in name only btw)  


T.D.S strikes again...leaves no brain cells untouched obviously
 
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Posted: #31
Quote Originally Posted by darkhorse12:


Counties don't vote.2 1/2 million votes basically a landslide.


Counties don't vote, but states do, and we can all thank our founding fathers for the wisdom that large population centers do not dictate the fortunes of this country. 

So , my own state of CA , NY, Chicago, Miami, and the Northeast can all go F&ck themselves for their big government , one-state utopia ambitions. 

The states still matter.....

 
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Posted: #32
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:


Counties don't vote, but states do, and we can all thank our founding fathers for the wisdom that large population centers do not dictate the fortunes of this country. 

So , my own state of CA , NY, Chicago, Miami, and the Northeast can all go F&ck themselves for their big government , one-state utopia ambitions. 

The states still matter.....



 Well said. 
 
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Posted: #33
 
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Posted: #34
Quote Originally Posted by 1129ken:



I see a difference between using taxpayer money to save a private, politically connected business that has failed due to poor management and offering tax incentives to a successful business in order to keep that successful business from taking jobs out of the country.

Whatever happened to government staying the he11 out of the way of private companies?  
 
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Posted: #35

^  this is a very important point, and is put so nicely and clearly.  The government should stay the FYck out of private affairs, and for that , I disagree w/ Trump's position on Carrier.

Stay the FYck out of the private sector.  Unfortunately, he owes such a such a huge favor to the RustBelt for his Presidential victory, that I  feel he needs to pay them back somehow.

I don't disagree with Trump's ambitions to do good for America.  For that , I applaud him... But I do disagree w/ his methods for carrying out his making America Great Agenda.    For that , he should get that hell outta the way of the business enterprise.........

 
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Posted: #36
Hey Alan.   Good read.  I am from Australia and we are facing similar issues with globilasation and the future.  

Our biggest problem is that the Chinese are buying everything from us.  Property(houses, farms, apartments)

The great Australian dream was to own your on home. Generations ago this was possible on 1 income,    Fir my generation it was done on 2 incomes.     Fir my kids it will be impossible even if they do gain employment.  


America. Election and trump also had a huge profile in Australia this time around.  
 
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Posted: #37
Quote Originally Posted by Tigers2013:

Hey Alan.   Good read.  I am from Australia and we are facing similar issues with globilasation and the future.  

Our biggest problem is that the Chinese are buying everything from us.  Property(houses, farms, apartments)

The great Australian dream was to own your on home. Generations ago this was possible on 1 income,    Fir my generation it was done on 2 incomes.     Fir my kids it will be impossible even if they do gain employment.  


America. Election and trump also had a huge profile in Australia this time around.  

Is Australia doing anything to fix the problem?
 
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Posted: #38
Quote Originally Posted by Rush51:

^  this is a very important point, and is put so nicely and clearly.  The government should stay the FYck out of private affairs, and for that , I disagree w/ Trump's position on Carrier.

Stay the FYck out of the private sector.  Unfortunately, he owes such a such a huge favor to the RustBelt for his Presidential victory, that I  feel he needs to pay them back somehow.

I don't disagree with Trump's ambitions to do good for America.  For that , I applaud him... But I do disagree w/ his methods for carrying out his making America Great Agenda.    For that , he should get that hell outta the way of the business enterprise.........



I completely agree that the government must stay the hell away from private business. However, for years now the government has taxed and regulated private business to the point where staying profitable is a burdensome challenge. I believe that is a big part of the reasons you are seeing concessions made. I hope that Trump will eliminate or severely curtail the regulatory and business tax nightmare currently in place. Then the proper business climate will be for all businesses and special concessions by government won't be necessary. ( THAT would be a worthwhile"climate change" ) For the sake of jobs, government should recognize that we are lucky when someone is willing to risk capital to start or continue a business in America and the tax and regulatory structure should take that into account. It doesn't as things are now.
 
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Posted: #39
The poor CEO's and their upper management teams just can't seem to make a buck in this country.  The business climate in this country is so bad it's a wonder that the 1%ers were able to increase their wealth over the last 8 years.  (Which they did).  I get a tear in my eye every time a corporation loses money and somehow bonuses and golden parachutes are still paid.

Banking deregulation seemed to work real well for this country before we should go back to it.  No doc loans were pure genius.  Even if someone makes 50k a year they should still be able to buy a million dollar home.  Mortgage bundling of bad loans and then rating them as Triple A so they could be sold to unsuspecting 401k's and the like was fantastic.  

Let's also drop the corporate tax rate to zero.  Since we don't need regulation we will just trust CEO's and their minions to reinvest back into the business and raise employee wages.  

What are we waiting for, let's get started.
 
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Posted: #40
Great insights.  Thanks for time and effort
 
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Posted: #41
Quote Originally Posted by bettingforfun:

The poor CEO's and their upper management teams just can't seem to make a buck in this country.  The business climate in this country is so bad it's a wonder that the 1%ers were able to increase their wealth over the last 8 years.  (Which they did).  I get a tear in my eye every time a corporation loses money and somehow bonuses and golden parachutes are still paid.

Banking deregulation seemed to work real well for this country before we should go back to it.  No doc loans were pure genius.  Even if someone makes 50k a year they should still be able to buy a million dollar home.  Mortgage bundling of bad loans and then rating them as Triple A so they could be sold to unsuspecting 401k's and the like was fantastic.  

Let's also drop the corporate tax rate to zero.  Since we don't need regulation we will just trust CEO's and their minions to reinvest back into the business and raise employee wages.  

What are we waiting for, let's get started.


It's already started.
 
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Posted: #42
Yeah you guys make me laugh, poor poor corporations and the big bad mean liberal government...kind of similar to the poor, just no hope and we need to give them a hand right?

Corporations and private companies do this and did this to themselves. The oversight and taxation on corporations and private business in my opinion is 100% justified if not more, I think we are too easy on private corps and especially multinationals.

I've discussed this so many times on here it is getting a bit boring really.

Corporations especially large ones are ACTIVELY buying politicians and the process, they manipulate and take advantage of our government and our politicians and thus every citizen not included in this secret society.

The reason government does this, did this and will do in the future is due to the past present and future abuses of these corporations AND the small private business owner. Greed, abuse, secrecy force governments to take action, corporations on a large and small basis for sure take much much more in terms of societal assets and gain from the government than general citizens do.

Corporations use trade benefits gained from governments as they interact with each other, corporations use our roadways and infrastructure which has a large cost borne by the private citizen at every turn..either by taxation or by corporate taxation..corporate taxation is returned to the taxpayer in the way of reduction of jobs or higher costs..so if we tax corporations they turn around and either raise prices or they immorally outsource at the cost of the private citizen.

To me corporations are takers of the government, their profits are increased by taking advantage of their customers or the government..thus why regulation exists. Regulations INCREASE and get more complex because corporations continue to abuse over and over and over...they try to outsmart existing regulations to increase profits and abuses happen and then more regulation is created. Government is not financially equipped to keep in FRONT of the abuses of corporations, there is no way the private individual can be protected from the secret abuses of corps and private business, the incentives of profit are a greater force for the corporation than the ability of the government to protect.

I have little to no sympathy for corporations, they force the government to tax and regulate and if we want cheap crappy goods and not pay for the real cost of goods then this will continue.

Carrier has to make a choice, if they are not able to raise costs due to the collusion of other corporations that outsource then until the government crushes that ability they might not be able to stay competitive.
 
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Posted: #43
Quote Originally Posted by 1129ken:



I see a difference between using taxpayer money to save a private, politically connected business that has failed due to poor management and offering tax incentives to a successful business in order to keep that successful business from taking jobs out of the country.

Conceptually, that makes little sense. Lets use people as an example. 

DJ and Ken both have millions. DJ spends lavishly on women and wine and risky investments and goes belly up. Ken invests smart with good decisions and is amassed wealth. Are we saying that we should reward him as an incentive to keep from leaving so he can make MORE money? No, the proper means is to penalize him if he does. 

In fact, that is exactly what Trump says he will do. I wait to see this. The reality, as alluded to by the OP is that the policy of rewarding corporations by not penalizing them if they take their jobs overseas is exactly what kills small businesses because the small businesses cannot compete with the cheaper products.
 
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Posted: #44
Corporations especially large ones are ACTIVELY buying politicians and the process, they manipulate and take advantage of our government and our politicians and thus every citizen not included in this secret society.

To me corporations are takers of the government, their profits are increased by taking advantage of their customers or the government..


this is your basic premise and i have to say everyone on here know it to be true.  it truly is politics 101 to understand how much money is in politics, how much it costs for these people to win elections, who pays that money and then who gets a return on their investment for making those payments. 

understanding that is like understanding basic arithmetic (1 +1 , 2 + 2, etc) before discussing and doing math.

now, whether people choose to appreciate it or recognize its importance is another story. 
 
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Posted: #45
wall,  .Random opinions follow.  I want to see the smokestacks spewing clean smoke again. I want to see the coal miners in West Virginia mining coal. I am tired of being called a denier with the threat of jail if I don't believe in global warming. I want a shirt and a pair of pants made in America that are now made in Viet Nam. I want the US to be energy independent. Globalization needs to be confronted on all fronts as Trump/Pence did for Carrier. Final number regarding Carrier. 700k for 10 years. Very small number to keep American jobs in Indiana.
 
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Posted: #46
Phenomenal discussion everyone.  I feel like I've heard more adult conversations and eloquent opinions in this thread the last few days than I did from our leaders and media the entire election cycle.  As I was doing the Carrier write up I was thinking of coming up with a podcast about some of these things.  Got nothing but positive feedback on that long-behind write up (which is rare on covers) so I thought there might be something there.  Nothing left/right...just honest conversation about thoughts/concerns from some average Americans without all the crazy rhetoric and agendas from the politicians and media.  Anyone else agree this thread has been better than a lot of cable bs and political junk we normally hear?
 
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Posted: #47
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


Conceptually, that makes little sense. Lets use people as an example. 

DJ and Ken both have millions. DJ spends lavishly on women and wine and risky investments and goes belly up. Ken invests smart with good decisions and is amassed wealth. Are we saying that we should reward him as an incentive to keep from leaving so he can make MORE money? No, the proper means is to penalize him if he does. 

In fact, that is exactly what Trump says he will do. I wait to see this. The reality, as alluded to by the OP is that the policy of rewarding corporations by not penalizing them if they take their jobs overseas is exactly what kills small businesses because the small businesses cannot compete with the cheaper products.


I wasn't suggesting ( or I didn't mean to suggest ) I was in favor of rewarding an individual successful business so much as I was saying I was opposed to saving a failing, private, business. And, I was trying to point out the difference. The rewards for the successful business should come ahead of time in the way of lower business taxes and a hell of a lot less regulation for all businesses, not just the one like Carrier that delivered a cheap political score.  I know you probably don't agree, and I didn't make the point very well, but for me that  is a significant difference. I favor the creation of jobs by people who put up capital, even though it means you have to incentivize the usually wealthy people risking their money.

Good conceptual hypothetical in your post. It made me revisit mine.
 
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Posted: #48
Quote Originally Posted by alangrrbs:

Phenomenal discussion everyone.  I feel like I've heard more adult conversations and eloquent opinions in this thread the last few days than I did from our leaders and media the entire election cycle.  As I was doing the Carrier write up I was thinking of coming up with a podcast about some of these things.  Got nothing but positive feedback on that long-behind write up (which is rare on covers) so I thought there might be something there.  Nothing left/right...just honest conversation about thoughts/concerns from some average Americans without all the crazy rhetoric and agendas from the politicians and media.  Anyone else agree this thread has been better than a lot of cable bs and political junk we normally hear?

Well, this great discussion was because of the thought on your original post. You were able to get a seasoned discussion on very important issues which brought a plethora of good responses. Like Ken's above. 

Ken, I don't disagree with anything you have said. What I have railed against for years is that we actually do 'reward' a business by not penalizing them if they take their jobs overseas but leave the headquarters here. We are the only country that does this and Trump is the first major politician to address that. Maybe its semantics but I don't want to have to give companies incentives to stay because it creates a game of poker where the mere threat will lead to benefits. 

I want American companies to be 'rewarded' by staying here by not having to compete with cheaper products from their counterparts, not by lower taxes which just means the money our country needs comes from other pockets. 
 
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Posted: #49
Quote Originally Posted by alangrrbs:

Phenomenal discussion everyone.  I feel like I've heard more adult conversations and eloquent opinions in this thread the last few days than I did from our leaders and media the entire election cycle.  As I was doing the Carrier write up I was thinking of coming up with a podcast about some of these things.  Got nothing but positive feedback on that long-behind write up (which is rare on covers) so I thought there might be something there.  Nothing left/right...just honest conversation about thoughts/concerns from some average Americans without all the crazy rhetoric and agendas from the politicians and media.  Anyone else agree this thread has been better than a lot of cable bs and political junk we normally hear?


the dude above you is worried about going to jail for denying global warming. 

just kidding. 


yes, this has been one of the better threads on covers in a while.  i don't watch the evening news anymore and the idea of watching any of the sunday talk shows sounds like torture, but i'm sure this is more in-depth than that garbage.


 
 
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Posted: #50
Quote Originally Posted by sundance:

wall,  .Random opinions follow.  I want to see the smokestacks spewing clean smoke again. I want to see the coal miners in West Virginia mining coal. I am tired of being called a denier with the threat of jail if I don't believe in global warming. I want a shirt and a pair of pants made in America that are now made in Viet Nam. I want the US to be energy independent. Globalization needs to be confronted on all fronts as Trump/Pence did for Carrier. Final number regarding Carrier. 700k for 10 years. Very small number to keep American jobs in Indiana.

See the issue as you bring up and people fail to understand is if you want to keep jobs here and you want people to not live like those in Vietnam, China, India etc etc then we have to pay MORE for our goods to accomplish this.

A good example is housing...so everyone knows I live in the general PHX metro area and there are a large range of housing prices here like in many metro areas. I have many decisions I can make and depending on what variables I am interested in I can either spend 80k on a house or I can spend 300k. I say 80k to 300k because based on an average 1500 sf house I could buy one down here for between 80k and 300k. The 80k house puts me in an area of the city that is less desirable, has greater risks and lower standards and likely an older house while a 300k house probably puts me in one of the nicer parts of town, newer house, safer area and less risk.

I was shopping the other day and I saw that a store was selling a pair of Wrangler jeans for 15 bucks, I thought to myself first that I dont buy Wrangler but second that this cost is LOWER than when I was in high school...and I knew exactly why this was the case..aside from the likely lower quality of jeans (I am positive that corporations have cheapened the quality of raw inputs to save money) that the bulk of the "cost" in the savings comes from the manufacturing and labor...and to make jeans the cost of machinery probably isnt all that high so their savings comes from offshoring production to a lower labor pool...like as you mentioned Vietnam.

People are not willing to pay more for a product if it means that production is kept here and that some lower middle class jobs are available for people in Indiana. Residential and small businesses are not willing to pay more for a Carrier product because they keep some mid range labor jobs in Indiana...they will jump ship and go buy a Goodman made in Mexico because Goodman and others can offshore and are not penalized so they artificially are able to be more competitive than someone conducting all facets of their business here. 

The reality is that government is being controlled by corporations in order for them to take advantage of a lower cost labor pool, lower cost input pool and sell products in competition with companies who do not offshore (yet). So while Trump claims to be something he ISNT regarding being a tough guy and this whole lame act of his, to "save" these jobs his VP is subsidizing Carrier, its the same as Carrier raising prices because the payment of this subsidy comes from taxation...and that always trickles down to the consumer and thus the consumer pays for Carrier's freebies.

The real answer is two-fold and obvious...first we have to rid our process of lobbying and dark money then politicians have a chance at leveling the playing field and penalizing offshoring and INCREASE taxation to those that do offshore, because taxing offshoring corps (as most countries do) relieves the burden on the smallest citizen. If I were able to do what I think I would INCREASE taxation of offshore funds and production...so if Apple wants to keep cash made from offshoring in some Swiss bank then they are not allowed to sell their products here until the balance of taxes are paid period. Playing soft with these corporations isnt working, it doesnt work.

Second is that as citizens we cannot expect things to change when we want our cheap goods and we also want our manufacturing jobs here...it doesnt work that way, if you want jobs here and you want people to have a reasonable standard of living then the costs of goods here has to go up..our CPI has been flat for well over a decade, how is that possible? We all benefit from offshoring, so as a country we have to either be willing to subsidize, penalize or be willing to pay more in order to make jobs available here and the products made able to be sold here.
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