Gas shortage

Then this on July 7 to Detox:

StumpTownStu

ALL-STAR

POSTED: Jul. 7, 2021 - 10:51 AM ET

#74

@I_Need_A_Detox

 Why do you think gas prices are up? Is it because Biden halted construction on an unfinished, inoperable pipeline designed to pump Chinese owned dirty ass Canadien sands crude through our country on it's way, probably to the gulf, to be shipped overseas? I bet during this "gas shortage" there isn't a station that's empty. For someone who preaches about corporate greed and control of our government, I would expect you to be aware the the petroleum industry is one of the most greedy and most corrupt industries of all. They'll use any excuse to falsely inflate gas prices and when an excuse isn't apparent, they create one. They had a convenient excuse with the hack a few months back but that was short lived. They love a middle-east skirmish to drive up prices. When a world conflict doesn't present itself, they'll say something like, "There's a rig offline in the gulf." Or, "A refinery is performing maintenance in California." And they'll use this excuse to drive up prices nationally. Do you know they excuse they are using now? A shortage of truck drivers. Now, granted, there is a shortage of truck drivers across industries but do you really believe dudes with high paying tanker jobs are giving them up to sit at home to collect unemployment?

So, as you can see, I saw your initial retort about ‘fake news’.  

Then I saw your reply to Detox.  I have no idea which reply to Circ you were referring to.  

Then you went all into the greed and money stuff — you brought this up first.  

Then when I pointed out that their margin was low and people just do not know this.  You changed the narrative to total money. 

Then when I point out all of the things you said about greed and profit and lying about things to create a shortage and increase prices — you then changed it again to say you don’t hate oil companies.   

Saying all of this was fake news and indicating that they have a pervasive issue with greed and ‘create’ shortages — certainly did not sound like a glowing approval.  

@Raiders22

 You proved my point. A bunch of stories about the hack, one of which that literally says "people are panic buying expecting a shortage but there's no reason to panic buy." A bunch of deflection. Avoiding answering simple yes or no questions. You dance around more than Fred Astaire.

I really don’t expect most people to know oil profit margins.  

I was simply pointing this out to show that it is not the huge runaway that the average person thinks.  

But to say there were not real shortages simply is wrong.  

To say there wasn’t a transport issue simply is wrong as well.

I don’t expect the average guy on the street to know the numbers in this industry.

But I do not expect them to ignore the news just to believe what they want to believe.

You think low margins, what you call low margins, negates the ability for greed? The oil industry doesn't really have low margins given the nature of their business. You attempted to compare the industry to completely different in unrelated industries as a means of deflection.

Yes. The hack was real.  The shortages during that time were real.  

That was when the thread was started.  While this was going on.  

But also notice the other stories and the other areas in the west that were affected. Etc. 

I’m sorry.  That is how it is done. 

Comparison across sectors — comparison within sectors.  

This is the study of economics and business.

Of course it does not negate greed.  

Could care less about that.  

My point is that it is not as pervasive as folksy think.  

That is what the other articles point out.  A lot of perception with some industries — and oil is one of them.  

You can argue the suspicious is deserved.  But not what the average person says it is — that is my point on greed. 

Again, when this thread was started — what shortage did you think he meant.  

There was the hack and transport.  

Nothing to dance around. Both are empirically proven. 

I dared you to answer simple yes or no questions and you danced around and changed the subject because are incapable of admitting you are wrong. You brought up profit margins in an attempt to paint those of the oil industry as low when they are not. You brought up gas shortages due to a hack two months ago when you know it has nothing to do with current prices, nor this thread. You avoid simple yes or no questions because the answers don't fit your narrative. You know the answers. You just refuse to say them because it would be like admitting you are wrong. Something it pains you to do.

114 out of 215 — what other industry would you pick to compare it to?

As the table below shows, the Integrated Oil and Gas industry made an average profit of 6.2 cents per dollar of sales, which ranks #114 out of 215 industries by profit margin, and puts oil companies right in the middle of industries by profitability.

If the Senate Finance Committee wants to investigate "excessive" or "windfall" profits, they might consider going after some of the other industries that have benefited from higher commodity prices and achieved much higher profit margins than oil (at 6.2%), like silver (44.7%), copper (24%), gold (21%), and industrial metals (21%) and lumber (17.7%).

Did the yes or no questions have anything to do with shortages from the hack or the transport problem?

Did they have anything to do with the perception people have with certain industries?

@Raiders22

 My "initial retort" about fake news was me being facetious with Tox, because that's how I am with him. Hence the blinking emoji. This is typically what the blinking emoji is used to signify. I didn't seriously join this debate until some two months later, two days ago, when Tox brought up the current price of gas, which is not being affected by a hack that happened two months ago.

For example:

What I have said many times, which you continue to dance around, is that ceasing construction on an unoperational, as yet completed leg of a very much still operational pipeline system does nothing to affect current supply. Yes or no?  No, why would it?  Who said it did and what does this have to do with current shortages?  You can argue future implications— if you like?

Ceasing to issue new permits for public lands does nothing to affect current supply. Yes or no? Don't hide from the question. Yes or no?

Same answer as above

The oil industry manipulates prices using tactics such as flat out limiting production when prices are too low to drive the prices higher. Yes or no?  Mixed — they have but not as bad as folks perceive  — AND this has nothing to do with this topic about current shortages.

The only possible effect that recent policy changes could have on current prices is purely speculative. Yes or no?

No.  Some of this can be seen in the past or using simply economic models.  Even though oil is dynamic and complex some economics are just economics.  

Dancing around. Here's another simple yes or no question that I bet you'll dance around. Are we currently experiencing shortages due to the hack? Yes or no? Tox brought up the current price of gas. All of my responses have been about the current price of gas. Is the current price of gas. Are the current prices being affected by the hack? Yes or no?

DOES THE OIL INDUSTRY USE MARKET MANIPULATION, INCLUDING LIMITING PRODUCTION, TO INCREASE OIL PRICES. YES OR NO?

So, as you can see, I don’t think any of those questions really applied to the topic at hand.  

It looked like you were just winging it and throwing out all of the reasons most people do about oil.  

The current problems have little to do with any of those questions.  

Yes. That was why I said retort.  And I saw that at the time and knew that.  

But then when you went on your later rant.  I thought maybe you didn’t really believe anything the news says about oil.  

But if you do believe the news about the shortages — then I misunderstood all of your rant about it later. 

Correct.  The hack part was earlier. 

So I never saw, or don’t remember, the post you said you replied to Circ about.  

So, maybe I was mixing up two of your posts about it.  

Either way, I still contend most folks just tend to vilify certain industries and oil for sure is one of those. 

So I never saw, or don’t remember, the post you said you replied to Circ about.  

So, maybe I was mixing up two of your posts about it.  

Either way, I still contend most folks just tend to vilify certain industries and oil for sure is one of those. 

No, it has everything to do with the topic. Tox bumped this thread to talk about the current price of gas, not during the hack but the current price, and how the current administration is responsible. The only point I have been making is that there are numerous factors that contribute to higher gas prices, least of which is any new policies if the current administration. That has been my point from the beginning and I have repeated it several times. You danced around this point and tried to make it about now the industries profit margins aren't as high as Apple and how people have preconceived notions about industries. I don't hate the oil industry, or the energy sector et al. As I have mentioned several times, it is one of the best industries for spreading the wealth around to the Jim's and the Joe's but the do they manipulate their own market to raise prices. Now whether it is fair to call this greed or a necessary tactic is debatable but what isn't debatable is that they do it.

Gotcha.  Yes. There are numerous factors. 

I took it as he was saying Trump had it low and we were energy independent and now it is at a high not seen since before Trump. 

Quite obviously there are many factors.  Not dancing around that.  This you are very correct about.  One of those factors is absolutely anticipation.  I think this is what Detox was saying.  

I take your point on greed.  I really do.  

But I still say it is not as bad as you think.  This is studied and written on. 

The only point I have been making is that there are numerous factors that contribute to higher gas prices, least of which is any new policies if the current administration.

So, maybe both of you are right on this part.  The only part I would say is the anticipation part of the policies is not the least.  The oil industry is very influenced by policy and anticipation of policy.  

For sure, many factors. 

The questions had everything to do with the topic at hand. Not the topic two months ago. The topic Tox bumped this thread with two days ago. The current price of gas and how it relates to the current administration. That is what this entire thread has been about. It started with the hack, the shortage of gas, and how it related to current administration in a "sleep at the wheel" kind of way. I agreed with everything tox was saying at the beginning so the most I said on the subject was the fake news comment and the winking emoji. When the hack story first broke, the media try to put a "There's nothing to see here. There's no shortage." spin on things. I was poking fun at this with Tox. That is the rapport I have with him. We have a dynamic that started in debate and contention, that is now understanding, and i'd like to think camaraderie. We on more than what we disagree. And i'll often bust his balls with comments like, "You're just saying that because you're a racist." and then the winking emoji to show that I am being facetious. And that I actually agree. That was my stance two months ago  i agreed with what he was saying, two months ago.

With what he said two days ago, placing the blame for the current gas hikes on the sitting administration, I do not agree. You like to talk about the false perceptions people get from the media. Maybe this was directed at me, which would be comical as I am nearly completely shut off from media. No social media, no cable news, rarely the network news. I used to read several papers a day. I don't anymore. I watch the local news at 11pm. Just enough to be aware of a potential wildfire or something. Real, pertinent news. Frankly, my response was about media driven misconceptions. Like the fact that people believe there was a pipeline called Keystone XL that was pumping away with American black gold. That Biden shut down this pipeline so that we would have to rely on foreign oil instead of that American Keystone oil. Now obviously there are several things wrong with that narrative but this is what people believe. Not necessarily Brother Tox, who is usually pretty well informed, but it's the notion that many subscribe to. And it is notions like that I was calling bullshit on. Why are gas prices high? Is it because if increased summer demand? Is it because of legitimate shortages? Is is because of market planned limits of production? Is it because of logistical issues like trucking? Surely it's, to some extent, all of the above. Is it because Biden stopped construction on a new leg of the Keystone pipeline system? Not so much. As i've said, as a speculative effect, maybe. Not as a direct causation way though. Nor are the prices because he ceased issuing new drilling permits on public lands. That's the narrative that's pushed though.

Greed wasn't a fair word. The point I was making is that they are one of the more egregious industries when it comes to manipulating it's own market. You mentioned orange juice earlier. It'd be if growers just decided to grow less oranges to drive up the price of orange juice. Not environmental factors. Not a hurricane in Florida. We're just going to grow less to up the price. Now in all fairness, there are factors that play into this much more complex than simply greed but the fact remains that it's a practice that one could argue is unscrupulous. You really don't see this tactic in very many industries. You see it in farming. The government pays farmers not to farm in order to maintain the market but that's because the market would collapse from a glut of supply if they didn't. The oil industry is never at a risk of collapsing due to an abundance of supply. Even when it got low enough to cause a panic, they were making money.