@wallstreetcappers
What is the evidence that locking up someone with hard time for looting accomplishes the result you suggest?
You mean besides the fact that they are off the street to do it again? And the fact that if they KNOW they will have repercussions they are less likely to do this?
Yeah, I would though decidedly less. I still have friends all throughout the Bay Area. Friends that are like family. For context, if not for going out there tonight, I probably would've been out there this past weekend for Outside Lands Music Festival. I wasn't trying to be away from home for like a week though. It's definitely a city in crisis. And liberal policies have definitely contributed to this. All I'm saying is that when addiction is involved. Mental illness. It's a complicated issue. More complicated than just failed liberal policies, of which there are many.
@wallstreetcappers
You cant lock up long term for theft even for gun possession, it is not the law anywhere and for sure not there. It is a big debate between the cost benefit of lockup and it seems the conclusion California has made is that the results do not support the cost and the loss of freedom and mental sanity of those in prisions.
They are NOT locking them up long term OR short term. That is what should be started. They are not even really trying to apprehend them at all. That is what they are more brazen now.
You do not agree? What would they do?
Because these areas with these types of policies are where the increases have been.
Fort Worth. Forth Worth was always the grimy little brother, much like Oakland except Fort Worth was grimy way back in the mid 1800s.
@wallstreetcappers
If you really wanted a result, the Old Testament approach is the wrong one, the smack someone with a rod or cut off a finger for shoplifting, that punitive punish based way is not how our country treats its citizens even ones who break the law. The only real solution is to spend a crap ton of money on security on a private basis and a public basis and make the act deterred by making it difficult for criminals to get a reward for taking that risk. The problem to me there is that no business wants to spend spend spend and also create an environment of a police state, many if not most businesses downtown are more professional and their employees are educated professionals, so changing the environment would have large impacts on the city and saddle the city and state with legal prosecution costs, housing of criminals, the legal system is not big or fast enough to turn into a McDonalds for petty theft, the dynamics of your hardline approach just dont work.
Obviously this is not as true as you think. You can go to the Middle East and look for one-handed folks. Or go to Singapore and try to find a drug dealer. See how many you find. 
You can go there and see public canings; they work for deterrence.
Certainly, I am not advocating that sort of extreme measure. But to dismiss the more hardcore jail time or penalties as a partial solution is very shortsighted.
Of course business do not want to spend money on that sort of thing. They should not have to. That is why they move to more less crime-ridden cities. The legal system has handled it better before and you can see this in cities that have cracked down on crime in the past. NYC, even did well on this and if they could do it, others can.
The city should be saddled with those costs; they were the ones that allowed it to get to this point. That part is NOT politics -- that is any city.
Absolutely if you are doing time for petty theft, etc. it brings this down, then you can manage it with other measures.
@wallstreetcappers
My question is what do you Liberals see as the solution. Because when the Right offers one, you certainly do not want to try it and give multiple reasons why you cannot do it.
Then when the Right lays the blame at the Left's feet for the policies and lack of policing and bad social programs, the Left gets upset.
But the Left cannot point to where the Right's policies on these matters have failed so miserably.
For example, the last I saw the top 20 cities per capita for violent crime had 18 Democratic mayors and 2 that were Independent. They also had Democratic legislatures in those cities.
How can they swerve the blame while never having a solution?
And they like it that way 
Define 'killing it' first. That is a very relative term. Nearly all big cities are led by Democrats. But there are some more centrists ones and the smaller ones that are headed by Republicans, and all on average have a better crime rate. No one can really debate this; it is fact. What they can debate is why it is that way and if the policies caused it and if the policies help control it. There are of course exceptions.
That is my point. The comparison and the claim that "right wing" cities do not let these kinds of things happen is absurd and silly. What about a "right wing" led city like Houston, Texas? Last time I checked crime and violent crime is pretty bad there and there is "right wing" leadership throughout the entire state of Texas, so these kinds of statements are stupid. Of course, the biggest cities have the most crime and biggest problems with homelessness and drugs. Again, not a partisan issue. 
@Raiders22
I am not a liberal at all, the way I am is a moderate conservative in my home and with regard to how I live my life and I am a moderate liberal with regard to how I think and act outside of my home. What works for me in my home is not what works for others and knowing that I choose what gives the most liberties and equality to others.
When you suggest that we look at the middle east as an example of how punitive punishment works, that is sickening and I know you said that on purpose to illicit a response. We do not treat even our criminals that way, it is against our social code and our bill of rights even if the person harms someone else we do not stoop to those levels, outside some states that still do capital punishment for murder we have moved from the OT approach almost exclusively and that is the right approach.
California has decided that spending billions on prosecuting, researching, housing, feeding and being responsible for criminals is not cost effective nor brings results for society deserving of lower level crimes. My suggestion is really all there is that private industry and government work together to make a stronger deterrent and not rely on police to catch and the legal system to prosecute and the state to house common crimes. Punitive reactions are not proof and especially in a free society where all members have rights it does not work and takes up massive resources just to punish, it isnt like we are reforming prisoners, the conservative right would never spend money on educating and reforming a criminal, that is an absurd concept...its all about Old Testament punitive punishment which is useless.
@Raiders22
@wallstreetcappers
You are both right. There has long existed a Laissez faire attitude towards drugs and petty crimes in many liberal run cities. Democratic leadership attempted to create these utopian version of a city that said, "We understand you. We know you have issues. We know you are misunderstood but we understand you. We won't treat you like a criminal. We're here to help. This and the fact that many cities are.more worried about homicides than car break ins. It has created a monstrosity of lawlessness. There are direct correlations to failed liberal policies. However, to Wally's point, you can't just bulldoze these people into a ditch. You can't keep arresting and prosecuting petty drug and theft crimes, which includes feeding housing, and medicating literal zombies. Even street people deserve due process. The courts are already much too gridlocked. To Raiders point, businesses shouldn't be required to hire private security but I would add that many are doing just this. It doesn't act as much of a deterrent. Even armed security is not the police. What, are they gonna shoot a shoplifter in cold blood. They can't arrest. They can't detain. It's a tricky issue. And expensive. Many of these businesses are barely getting by as is. There is no easy cut and dry answer to all of this.
@DeezyAZ81
You can look at the data on smaller, similar sized cities. These things are easy to find. They show the crime rates in each of them. There are exceptions, but mostly reflect exactly the same as the big cites.
It is leadership and policies.
@wallstreetcappers
I have never seen you show a Conservative view on any social issue on here -- not a single one. Sorry, if I missed that. We are not talking about what you do in your house. We are talking about what you think should be done in these cities.
I told you I am not advocating the extreme policies; I am pointing out to you that you cannot say they do not work and cannot be done. Caning works, jail time works, huge fines work -- to deny this is absurd. Whether it is 'moved on from' or 'moved away from' is debatable. It is simply pointing out that you cannot let folks think there is no punishment at all, harsh or not. Then you will have more of this activity -- just like we see.
Of course CA -- and others -- have decided not to spend money on it! And this is the result!
My suggestion is really all there is that private industry and government work together to make a stronger deterrent and not rely on police to catch and the legal system to prosecute and the state to house common crimes.
HUH? What does that even mean? What is your 'stronger deterrent' going to be? Just to up and move somewhere else?
What do you think the job of the police and legal system is, if not to deal with crime? This is ansolute nonsense.
Punitive reactions are not proof and especially in a free society where all members have rights it does not work and takes up massive resources just to punish, it isnt like we are reforming prisoners, the conservative right would never spend money on educating and reforming a criminal, that is an absurd concept...its all about Old Testament punitive punishment which is useless.
Look even the punitive ones have been dropped. You think that made it better or worse?
Educating and reforming is a whole other issue. That can be done as well, I pointed that out above.
So, your solution is not much more than what is being attempted now. If people do not see a punishment of some sort for stealing your stuff -- trust me, that is education enough.
Liberals will never admit that their own policies are what got them to this point in these cities. No amount of denying or deflection can dismiss the evidence or the data.
Correct. It should not be for the security guard in the local store. Watch them in the videos -- they do not do anything. They are not allowed. Why are they even hired.
Absolutely you can arrest people for petty crimes, until they ease up. It used to work and will work again. You cannot just throw your hands up in the air and say there is nothing you can do. It is too late to educate and reform them and make them CPAs.
The drug issue is absolutely another issue to deal with.
But the smash and grabs and assaults need to be handled appropriately and not just give up.
I am not sure what you are trying to argue, but this contradicts your claims. Conditions in small versus large cities are not the same, so the data would not be the same in a comparison. Of course, leadership may contribute, but size and population plays more of an influence, which is why my comparison to Houston (republican led) to other major Dem led cities in America shows it not about partisanship or political party in power. Larger cities, and more people equals greater opportunities for crime, regardless of leadership.
I am simply saying there are fewer larger cities as you say -- so there are comparisons done on smaller ones, as well. Absolutely the conditions are the same. A lot of smaller cities have higher per capita crime than larger ones do.
Nothing contradictory about it. I am simply saying you can do the comparisons any way you like.
The bottom line is there is no denying the larger cities are controlled by Democrats and their legislators. If this is not the cause of the crime, you have to be able to answer what is.
No expert that I know, personally, or respect in the field has answered this.
What I meant is that security guards can't make arrests. It is up to police.
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