The reviews are in Tulsa was a dud.

6,200 is more than any rally in Biden’s 40+ year political career 

Democratic National convention 2008 2012. Delaware democratic fund raiser Delaware downs... Hmm 

I am going to say people took the Covid threat seriously was the reason the stadium wasn't packed.

Very clever... So, by that logic, neither one of us is qualified to give an opinion on the Revolutionary War.    Do you study history ??  

I know well enough that no one was talking about China in the 70s, 80s, and even into the 90s.  It was all Japan..  Seiko, Sanyo, Sharp, etc.  Ring a bell?  Japan was the first Asian country to really excel at reverse engineering our products shortly after WWII,.. including yes, cars !  Toyota, Datsun (now Nissan), Honda .  Right ?  So, stop treating the reverse engineering as though it was some novel concept invented by the Chinese.  They are just applying it on a massive scale and are using it as a qualifier for foreign companies to have access to China's markets.  Question for you.  How/why has the WTO put up with this bullying behavior  ?   Final point, 15 years ago was only 2005.  China became a member of the WTO in 2001.  You're not exactly "the Amazing Kreskin" in predicting the rise of China.  Lol.. Aside from the rise of "Globalization" that really accelerated under the agreement, an often not talked about point was the "Hope" that China would steer itself from Communism, once they saw the benefits of a market-oriented economy.   We are all now witnessing the grand Failure of this experiment in real time.  China has only consolidated power under President Xi's leadership and strengthened its Communist Rule,  and it is good  to have a leader that will stand up to these pricks. 

Knowledge once known can not be unknown. It was the same in England and the Americas America could grow cotton but not build textiles those employed in the textile industry were not allowed to migrate carrying the trade secrets to the colonies. It took a great time before a shirt was truly manufactured here... But as all things trade secrets and industrial production are not protected. And what can be produced will be copied.

The japanese car market was never based on reverse engineering our cars. Even the japanese electronic industry was based on their own ingenuity and not simply copying us. The japanese don't mind putting money into research and development. The chinese will always take the cheap way out.

It most certainly was, Stu... And in particular, the car industry.  Electronics industry, less so.  They invented things like Sony Walkman, etc. , but they most certainly built their car empire off the backs of the American cars (i.e. ingenuity) already in place.  They merely perfected the science, and remains so to this very day.  

Rush is a genius. e.o.m. 

Why was the Tulsa crowd so small? Probably Chyna's fault, right?

Actually the Trump crowd of supporters was really smaller than the 6200 reported.

2,837 were paid actors to attend; 986 were Trump campaign covididots; 183 were security/plainclothes police. 

I had a bigger crowd at my last colonoscopy.

And when they were done, did they then say "now the doctor will see you"?

Early japanese cars were nothing like the American cars of the day. As a matter of fact, in the late 70s and 80s, owed much to the oil crisis, American car makers begin the still in existence practice of copying the japanese design of small displacement, economy compacts. It's also the tine when you first started seeing American reskins of japanese cars. You saw the reverse to some degree in the 90s and 2000s but nowhere at the same level. I love American muscle but the fact is the japanese are better than us at making cars. And that isn't owed to them copying anything from American car makers. I mean, we didn't event the internal combustion engine. Henry Ford did event the assembly line, and American car makere did make many contributions to the modern automobile, but it has been a world wide endeavor with engineers and inventors from many countries, including japan, contributing. China, on the other hand, blatantly steals technology, often through hacking and other forms of espionage, and makes their own versions of copyrighted American products. It's state backed piracy. Japan, as a country, has more honor than that.

Just a few points of reference for the folks likely to think WWII started 12/7/41 with the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Some events have much earlier beginnings and gained momentum later and as a result of the earlier events and actions.

The invasion and capture of the American auto industry was prompted by Volkswagen and the “beetle” in the 1950’s. The Japanese followed with mini-economy cars but the Volkswagen was the trigger, and it all began by the early-to-mid-50’s, not some much later date. Ford countered with the Falcon (excellent), GM with the Corvair (upchuck), and Chrysler with the Plymouth Duster (pretty good car).  With me so far?

Due to the wisdom of FDR, Truman, Churchill and around 50% of the intelligent population the economies and cultures of Germany and Japan  were being rebuilt, just as Churchill tried to tell Europe they should be, after WWI, or the extreme punishments of the Versailles Treaty would have them back in a generation, with a vengeance (it happened, they followed Hitler). The punishment and eventual resurgence of Germany as a highly militaristic and revenge minded society is also true and interesting but another subject for another day.

So, the German and Japanese auto industries were vital to their economic recovery and societal stability. No heavy duty import fees or taxes were applied, and that hurt the U.S. auto manufacturers, but was a prudent and moral thing to do. They did well. The Beetle was a quality success story right from the beginning. The Japanese imports lacked quality and the style America was looking for, but they caught on quickly and solved both problems. The American auto industry was slipping into a time of bad labor relations and absenteeism, drugs and alcohol in the plants were becoming an ever increasing problem. That resulted in the mostly poor quality of American autos in the late 1960’s, ‘70’s and into ‘80’s. The dollar for dollar value of Japanese cars was obvious and took a large part of the market. Through various efforts of management and labor those (American) problems have been cured and American cars today are both price and quality competitive with any from anywhere.

Overall, the competitive condition of the auto industry has been extremely good for the consumer. Higher quality at lower prices is a remarkably successful formula, and has been since the day of Henry Ford and the Model “T”, although America constantly tries to forget that, while people like the Japanese and Koreans live by the principal.

So, there is another encapsulated view of the history of the “Auto Wars” to look at. I only do this occasionally to overcome the opinions of persons that are sure history began the day they were born and nothing that happened before they were ten years old, and can be vaguely remembered, is of any consequence.

The History Channel had a great docu series on last night re decisions made behind the scenes leading up to WWII.

Would recommend it to any history buff.

Now watch Slim report me for posting about something on TV that belongs in another forum.

Great company, but no so much on the stock side.  Auto companies don't really do it for me... but thanks 

Early in their products were looked at sort of China’s now: knockoffs, cheap, low-quality, and not dependable.  But time has a way of skewing our memory.  Sure, China is more blatant and maybe not as ingenious as Japan. But still:

Toyota is my favorite example. It was initially founded in the 1800s as a manufacturer of industrial looms for making clothes. One of the sons of the Toyoda family wanted to get into cars in the 1920s. So, naturally, he purchased a GM car and brought it into the factory for his technicians to reverse-engineer. If you visit the Toyota museum in Japan, there's a diorama of them heroically taking the American car apart and making blueprints from the parts, then making a copy. So, that's how Toyota got started as a car company!

Kiichiro began to prepare car production. He wanted to create a Japanese car maker independent from and competitive against Ford & GM. The President of Toyota (Kiichiro’s brother-in-law) was against his plan, so he pursued his “hobby” from scratch without company approval. He visited many factories, universities & government ministries; purchased needed equipment from Germany & US; and test produced small engines. In 1933 he reverse engineered the latest GM Chevrolet, analyzing all components and identifying Japanese companies that could produce them. In 1934 he designed a passenger car model which combined GM Chevrolet & Chrysler De Soto.

was a crazy idea, but his engineer friends helped him. US cars were further analyzed, a large factory was built, and additional equipment was imported. The engine was modeled

after GM, the chassis was Ford-based, and the design was

copied from Chrysler. After many failures, the team

succeeded in casting engine’s cylinder block. Cylinder head

also had to be improved by trial-and-error. The first Toyota car

(Model A1, photo) was finally ready in May 1935—five months

behind schedule but it was still a big achievement. Kiichiro quickly transformed it into a truck (Model G1) because it was military trucks that the Japanese government wanted to procure. By November 1935 the truck was ready (but Model G1 had many technical problems that had to be fixed.)

In 1936, the government granted car production licenses to Toyota & Nissan. In 1937 Toyota Motor Company was established. In summary, Toyota’s first car production relied heavily on reverse engineering on GM, Ford & Chrysler, but there was no formal assistance from any US companies.

Toyota almost went bankrupt in 1949. In 1950, its production was limited to 300 vehicles.

Back then, Japanese car makers were known mainly for their habit of ripping off designs from other manufacturers. Toyota's first passenger car, the 1936 Model AA, was a blatant copy of Dodge and Chevrolet designs, and some parts could actually be interchanged with the originals.

But Japan systematically borrowed the best ideas from each of these countries, while simultaneously addressing their weaknesses:

And of course this ‘practice’ bled over into other places including software — and it is looked at as okay and even necessary.  For example:

that Japan views computer software as an economic asset meant to contribute to the development of its industrial economy as opposed to the development of culture.[4]Thus, since reverse engineering plays a major role in software development, it is regarded as a lawful act in Japan.

Reverse engineering (decompiling) has played a large part in the advancement of the Japanese industry ,which probably explains why it is seen as a legal act even though there is no mention of it in Japan's Copyright law.

But Japanese tech companies got better and they were extremely innovative. But their innovations didn't come in the form of inventing completely new things. Their field of expertise was to take gadgets that already existed and then optimize the living crap out of it. For example, some may not be familiar with a fax machine. It's this ancient artifact of a bygone society that was like a telephone and scan/printer combo that was able to send whatever it scanned to another fax machine, as well as receive the same from other fax machines.

Those familiar with what a fax machine looks like will imagine something about the same size as the average printer. But the first fax machines were these gargantuanpieces of machinery that were as imposing in their bulk as they were impossible to figure out how to use. It was generally limited to use in hospitals and police departments, where faxes could take hours to print out. Then Japan got their hands on the technology through American companies and proceeded to break down the fax machine to bits and bolts and reinvented it. It was made more compact, faster, sleeker, and importantly, more affordable. Soon everyone's making fax machines but Japanese tech companies made the lion's share of innovationsthat made it a marketable product.

This was the strategy of Japanese tech companies. Very similar to how they took fighter plane engines in pre-WWII years and optimized them to heights never imagined, Japanese tech companies took their creative juices and focused them on making additions or improvements that were uniquely Japanese, though originally derived from many an American invention. After establishing their brands as reputable and earning a reputation for high quality, plus the positive cash flow, Japanese tech companies were able to innovate and create uniquely Japanese productsthat could now be marketed and sold through established channels.

The other half of their success lies in how they effectively leveraged the American government's backingof their economic pursuits in the country. They helped Japanese companies navigate the complex import export processes as well as created spaces and provided resources for establishing Japanese footholds in the American market.

Ultimately, America was a proving ground for Japanese companiesas well as a needed source of investment and revenueto further fund industrial expansion and growth, made possible by US responsibility for Japanese national security and economic cooperative policies, most importantly of all a constant favorable exchange ratefor US to yen. America was also the starting point for many of Japan's products because they received a lot of technical knowledge from American partners and proceeded to make them better in the ways they knew best.

It's important to note that it wasn't the case that America was solely responsible for the Japanese miracle. American government policies and organizations created an environment that was conducive of opportunities for the Japanese companies. It was the Japanese that capitalized on the unique situation they were in and made unbelievable gains, rising to world class economy in an even more unbelievable time frame.

In the early days there was a lot of copying. Some license, most not. The straight six in an fj40 is almost identical to a GM straight six.

They copied and mminiaturized things. Compare 77 celica GT fastback to a 70s mustang.
But probably copied more from Europe than the us.
most of their domestics were small. Lots of "stolen" technology, but innovatively adapted to a smaller size and different manufacture.
It wasn't the wholesale copying the other markets do. India, China,korea, se Asia etc.
Keep in mind lots of the "ripoffs" you see are licensed and/or codesigned local variants.

Almost certainly. All auto companies keep very careful track of competitors, and are quick to adopt features and designs that they see the market embracing. Take a look at the current Ford Fusion’s awesome front end, “inspired” by Aston Martin. No doubt Japanese car companies watched the market carefully and took “inspiration” from popular or aspirational models (the Honda Accord / Mercedes 190 come to mind). I'm not sure if anyone will really say whether this inspiration came in the form of “hey, look at that car, we should make one like that” or if cars were purchased and dissected for study. If I had to guess, it’d be the latter. If I were charged with building a car for a new market, that’s what I’d do.

Car companies “inspire” each other all the time. They also share suppliers, which contributes to blurring the lines. These companies do not work in isolation by any stretch of the imagination. I think it would be naive to think that car designers and engineers are not watching each other very carefully and constantly asking themselves if others’ ideas are good enough to become their “inspiration”.

When the Japanese started producing consumers goods for export, they were still recovering from a devastating war. Resources were limited and experience was lacking.
So they handled the rule: copy and improve.
And that was not just for cars, but they were known for the improvements.
And then we copied these to meet and compete with their high standards.

Generally, reverse engineering is a crucial element needed to determine and improve production processesthat would lead to an enhanced product effectiveness. However, it is also important to take note that reverse engineering is not just a mere activity of disassembling parts to understand the science behind the product. It requires a multidisciplinary expertise and experience. One who executes reverse engineering also needs to have sophisticated analytical thinking to guide him or her along the process.

One of the industries that benefit the most from this technology is the automobile industry.

Absolutely these things went on and continue to go on — in nearly all industries.  Look at the military examples.  So, of course it happened in the auto industry and computers and software.  We do and everyone else does it.  It is just generally improved upon by most — or used as a leaping off point.  So, you can make the point that China doesn’t do that — or hasn’t that much yet.  

But for those that are interested there are some very well-written research papers on the Japanese auto industry and, in fact, in just the auto industry period.  

It will amaze you as you sometimes have to separate your pre-conceived perceptions from what the reality was. 

This came up in a situation for us some years back and it was enlightening for me as we looked into it. 

I am not a car person — the evolution and economic impacts for the various countries and the drivers behind the innovations was our interest — but this was very good study and interesting reading. 

I know this thread is about Tulsa.

All that was just a side note I had when I saw the auto industry mentioned in here. 

Carry on. 

Maybe too much info, Rush. The attention span of a typical Covers member is not that long. This is not sarcasm or bashing, just my humble opinion.

Should I read into that that perhaps "Your"  attention span isn't that long ?  BTW, Raiders posted the information,  and I thought it was a good read... but I digress....