All Forums | General Discussion

If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

Participants:

Search

Views: 256994

Posts: 5358

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 12:25 AM ET #3226

Sugarbear,

I tried my best to answer your questions.

Last thing. You said "AND IF ANYBODY TRIES TO REFERENCE THE BIBLE FOR ANY ANSWERS, YOU'RE A MORON. YOU CAN'T USE THE BIBLE AS EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS"...

The Bible is a VERY reliable source. It is the most accurate and complete historical book on the planet. It is head and shoulders above the rest.

I know that you will love this one...It is without error and contradictions!!!

If one was to read the Bible at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors, we will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book.

Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other.

We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years.

Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose.

We should expect some minor differences.

However, a difference is not a contradiction.

It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled.

Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist.

Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

We often receive questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!”

Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer.

However, it is our contention that there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error.

There are books and websites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.”

Most people simply get their ammunition from these places; they do not find supposed errors on their own.

There are also books and websites available that refute every one of these supposed errors.

The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer. Many “Bible attackers” are even aware of these answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.

0

Report User

Sugarbear,

I tried my best to answer your questions.

Last thing. You said "AND IF ANYBODY TRIES TO REFERENCE THE BIBLE FOR ANY ANSWERS, YOU'RE A MORON. YOU CAN'T USE THE BIBLE AS EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS"...

The Bible is a VERY reliable source. It is the most accurate and complete historical book on the planet. It is head and shoulders above the rest.

I know that you will love this one...It is without error and contradictions!!!

If one was to read the Bible at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors, we will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book.

Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other.

We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years.

Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose.

We should expect some minor differences.

However, a difference is not a contradiction.

It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled.

Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist.

Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

We often receive questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!”

Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer.

However, it is our contention that there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error.

There are books and websites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.”

Most people simply get their ammunition from these places; they do not find supposed errors on their own.

There are also books and websites available that refute every one of these supposed errors.

The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer. Many “Bible attackers” are even aware of these answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 12:28 AM ET #3227

Matt - the reason he said that is because you cannot use the bible to support the bible. That's a logical fallacy. If I tried to prove to you that Harry Potter exists, I can't use any of the 7 Harry Potter books to prove that. I must use outside references. So the same thing applies to the bible. When we're discussing the validity of bible verses, we cannot refer to the bible itself. The bible cannot justify itself.

0

Report User

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 12:29 AM ET #3228

Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

Sugarbear19,

The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 90. So, anywhere between 3400 to 1900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost.

They very likely no longer exist. Also during this time, the books of the Bible have been copied again and again. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17).

The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the A.D. 1500s.

However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries.

Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered.

Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God’s Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).

Thank you matt4000, that's what I've been saying all along. The dead sea scrolls back up the validity and how little has changed. That did even impress skeptics. Like I've said, there is more backed up with the Bible than most of the stuff we never question in History books. Merry Christ mas to the billions that celebrate!

0

Report User

Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

Sugarbear19,

The books of the Old Testament were written from approximately 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 90. So, anywhere between 3400 to 1900 years have passed since a book of the Bible was written. In this time, the original manuscripts have been lost.

They very likely no longer exist. Also during this time, the books of the Bible have been copied again and again. Copies of copies of copies have been made. In view of this, can we still trust the Bible?

When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17).

The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the A.D. 1500s.

However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries.

Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered.

Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.

Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God’s Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).

Thank you matt4000, that's what I've been saying all along. The dead sea scrolls back up the validity and how little has changed. That did even impress skeptics. Like I've said, there is more backed up with the Bible than most of the stuff we never question in History books. Merry Christ mas to the billions that celebrate!

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 12:41 AM ET #3229

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Matt - the reason he said that is because you cannot use the bible to support the bible. That's a logical fallacy. If I tried to prove to you that Harry Potter exists, I can't use any of the 7 Harry Potter books to prove that. I must use outside references. So the same thing applies to the bible. When we're discussing the validity of bible verses, we cannot refer to the bible itself. The bible cannot justify itself.

Where did surfape go? He's gonna bash you for using Harry Potter as a reference.

I'm so glad you used this example. Ok, so I cannot use the 7 Harry potters books to prove Harry potter existed and I cannot use the Bible to prove Jesus or stories etc existed.

So if archeologists dug up Hogwartz would that support the non believers of Harry potter or the believers?

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2010

Posts: 1384

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:00 AM ET #3230

Why is it so hard to understand that you can't use the bible to validate the bible?

The bible is true because it says so in the bible. Do you not see the flawed logic here?

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:04 AM ET #3231

Quote Originally Posted by offensivestr:

Where did surfape go? He's gonna bash you for using Harry Potter as a reference.

I'm so glad you used this example. Ok, so I cannot use the 7 Harry potters books to prove Harry potter existed and I cannot use the Bible to prove Jesus or stories etc existed.

So if archeologists dug up Hogwartz would that support the non believers of Harry potter or the believers?

The believers...that's exactly my point - it would take extrinsic evidence

0

Report User

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:05 AM ET #3232

Thank you.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:07 AM ET #3233

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

I have neither the time nor the desire to pick apart your detailed explanation, which, again, I appreciate you taking the time to do. However, you make many unsubstantiated claims as foundations for your conclusions, thus rendering the conclusions unreliable. Just to throw out a few examples: god is moral/caring (based on what?) Everyone has a purpose (even starving children in ethiopia that die at the age of 2?) furthering on that - why did god wait 13.7 billion years to create people? and this is leaving out all of the verses in the bible that contradict jesus' teachings, such as the verses regarding raping women and murder, etc. (I'm not gonna go find them, but they've been posted before, I'm sure someone as well-versed as you on the bible knows what I'm referring to).

Additionally, going back, "For example, the relativist says, “All truth is relative,” yet one must ask: is that statement absolutely true? If so, then absolute truth exists; if not, then why consider it?"

Just because absolute truth exists in the abstract, does not mean it applies to morals, because as a matter of fact (not opinion: FACT) it does not. Society is proof of this as what is important to me may not be important to you. Ex: Murder is not absolutely wrong, it is only wrong relative to the situation you are in.

And finally, your conclusion that god must have created the universe is false. Just because the universe had a beginning, doesn't mean it was god. That is "bridging the gap" and is the main flaw in the theist's argument.

I'm sorry this response is somewhat jumbled, but I fully expect Sugarbear to give you a much better and more organized answer.

And since I just saw your next answer: I will pose this additional question: What about the meteor that destroyed virtually all life on earth? How did that kill dinosaurs and not humans?

KittyKat,

You have so many statements wrapped up in your post.

Simply what you are saying one at a time or break down your statements into questions, so we can debate them one by one.

This will make it easier for both of us!

0

Report User

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

I have neither the time nor the desire to pick apart your detailed explanation, which, again, I appreciate you taking the time to do. However, you make many unsubstantiated claims as foundations for your conclusions, thus rendering the conclusions unreliable. Just to throw out a few examples: god is moral/caring (based on what?) Everyone has a purpose (even starving children in ethiopia that die at the age of 2?) furthering on that - why did god wait 13.7 billion years to create people? and this is leaving out all of the verses in the bible that contradict jesus' teachings, such as the verses regarding raping women and murder, etc. (I'm not gonna go find them, but they've been posted before, I'm sure someone as well-versed as you on the bible knows what I'm referring to).

Additionally, going back, "For example, the relativist says, “All truth is relative,” yet one must ask: is that statement absolutely true? If so, then absolute truth exists; if not, then why consider it?"

Just because absolute truth exists in the abstract, does not mean it applies to morals, because as a matter of fact (not opinion: FACT) it does not. Society is proof of this as what is important to me may not be important to you. Ex: Murder is not absolutely wrong, it is only wrong relative to the situation you are in.

And finally, your conclusion that god must have created the universe is false. Just because the universe had a beginning, doesn't mean it was god. That is "bridging the gap" and is the main flaw in the theist's argument.

I'm sorry this response is somewhat jumbled, but I fully expect Sugarbear to give you a much better and more organized answer.

And since I just saw your next answer: I will pose this additional question: What about the meteor that destroyed virtually all life on earth? How did that kill dinosaurs and not humans?

KittyKat,

You have so many statements wrapped up in your post.

Simply what you are saying one at a time or break down your statements into questions, so we can debate them one by one.

This will make it easier for both of us!

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:09 AM ET #3234

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Matt - the reason he said that is because you cannot use the bible to support the bible. That's a logical fallacy. If I tried to prove to you that Harry Potter exists, I can't use any of the 7 Harry Potter books to prove that. I must use outside references. So the same thing applies to the bible. When we're discussing the validity of bible verses, we cannot refer to the bible itself. The bible cannot justify itself.

If you remember several months ago, I had this same debate with Quantum Leap.

I used many outside sources to verify what I was saying. but I also used many other sources to verify the legitimacy of the Bible as a historical book and used it as an account of Jesus Christ's life.

0

Report User

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:11 AM ET #3235

Dr. George Stuart. He said that archaeologists do indeed find the Bible a valuable reference tool, and use it many times for geographical relationships, old names and relative chronologies. On the enclosed list, you will find many articles concerning discoveries verifying events discussed in the Bible.
~ National Geographic Society, Washington D.C.

R.D. Wilson who wrote “A Scientific Investigation of the Old Testament” pointed out that the names of 29 Kings from ten nations (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and more) are mentioned not only in the Bible but are also found on monuments of their own time. Every single name is transliterated in the Old Testament exactly as it appears on the archaeological artifact – syllable for syllable, consonant for consonant. The chronological order of the kings is correct.

See where this is going? It goes on and on and on?

The archeological findings are astounding. The correlation is astounding. You can turn your back on this stuff all you want but it's not helping atheists out.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:12 AM ET #3236

Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:

Why is it so hard to understand that you can't use the bible to validate the bible?

The bible is true because it says so in the bible. Do you not see the flawed logic here?

I will re-has why it is can be used as a historical reference in any religious or historical debate.

This will be a lengthy debate. But since it is being brought up by so many, I will go there again.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2009

Posts: 1988

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:16 AM ET #3237

No matter what you say about the bible's validity, it still cannot be used to verify itself. No book or document can be used to verify the truthfulness of its own contents. It doesn't just apply to the bible.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2007

Posts: 2955

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:29 AM ET #3238

Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

I will re-has why it is can be used as a historical reference in any religious or historical debate.

This will be a lengthy debate. But since it is being brought up by so many, I will go there again.

We are not debating whether or not the bible contains historical accurate place names, we are debating your claim that the bible proves the existence of god. And no, a book which says god exists is not proof of a god. It only proves that people can write.

I'd rather be playing D&D.

0

Report User

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:29 AM ET #3239

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

No matter what you say about the bible's validity, it still cannot be used to verify itself. No book or document can be used to verify the truthfulness of its own contents. It doesn't just apply to the bible.

Ostraca (inscribed potsherds) Over 100 ostraca inscribed in biblical Hebrew (in paleo-Hebrew script) were found in the citadel of Arad. This is the largest and richest collection of inscriptions from the biblical period ever discovered in Israel. The letters are from all periods of the citadel's existence, but most date to the last decades of the kingdom of Judah. Dates and several names of places in the Negev are mentioned, including Be'er Sheva.

Just more and more coming from OUTSIDE the Bible

0

Report User

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:33 AM ET #3240

Your arguments are so weak atheists.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:34 AM ET #3241

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

No matter what you say about the bible's validity, it still cannot be used to verify itself. No book or document can be used to verify the truthfulness of its own contents. It doesn't just apply to the bible.

Non-Biblical Historical Confirmations:

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian, born A.D. 52-54.

He was Governor of Asia in A.D. 112 and son-in-law of Julius Agricola, the Governor of Britain, A.D. 80-84.

Writing of the reign of Nero he says, "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the boundaries that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome.

Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (ref.10).

Lucian, a Satirist of the second century, spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: "...the man who was crucified in Palestine because He introduced this new cult into the world...Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist Himself and living under His laws" (ref.11).

Flavius Josephus, born A.D. 37, a Jewish historian, became a Pharisee at age 19; in A.D. 66 he was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee.

After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. He says, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man, for He was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the person, and many of the Gentiles.

He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those that loved Him at the first did not forsake Him; for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him are not extinct at this day" (ref.12).

"In the whole story of Jesus Christ, the most important event is the resurrection. Christian faith depends on this. It is encouraging to know that it is explicitly given by all four evangelists and also by Paul.

The names of those who saw Him after His triumph over death are recorded; it may be said that the historical evidence for the resurrection is stronger than for any other miracle anywhere narrated; for as Paul said, ‘If Christ is not risen from the dead, then is our preaching in vain, and your faith is also in vain’" (ref.5, p.18).

Professor Thomas Arnold, for fourteen years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous three-volume "History of Rome," appointed to the chair of Modern History at Oxford, was certainly a man well-acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said in his work, "Sermons on the Christian Life--Its Hopes, Its Fears, and Its Close" (6th ed., London, 1859, p.324):

"The evidence for our Lord’s life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad.

Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up a most important cause. I myself have done it many times over, not to persuade others, but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead" (ref.7, pp.425-426).

0

Report User

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

No matter what you say about the bible's validity, it still cannot be used to verify itself. No book or document can be used to verify the truthfulness of its own contents. It doesn't just apply to the bible.

Non-Biblical Historical Confirmations:

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian, born A.D. 52-54.

He was Governor of Asia in A.D. 112 and son-in-law of Julius Agricola, the Governor of Britain, A.D. 80-84.

Writing of the reign of Nero he says, "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the boundaries that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome.

Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (ref.10).

Lucian, a Satirist of the second century, spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: "...the man who was crucified in Palestine because He introduced this new cult into the world...Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist Himself and living under His laws" (ref.11).

Flavius Josephus, born A.D. 37, a Jewish historian, became a Pharisee at age 19; in A.D. 66 he was the commander of Jewish forces in Galilee.

After being captured, he was attached to the Roman headquarters. He says, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man, for He was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the person, and many of the Gentiles.

He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principle men among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those that loved Him at the first did not forsake Him; for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him are not extinct at this day" (ref.12).

"In the whole story of Jesus Christ, the most important event is the resurrection. Christian faith depends on this. It is encouraging to know that it is explicitly given by all four evangelists and also by Paul.

The names of those who saw Him after His triumph over death are recorded; it may be said that the historical evidence for the resurrection is stronger than for any other miracle anywhere narrated; for as Paul said, ‘If Christ is not risen from the dead, then is our preaching in vain, and your faith is also in vain’" (ref.5, p.18).

Professor Thomas Arnold, for fourteen years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous three-volume "History of Rome," appointed to the chair of Modern History at Oxford, was certainly a man well-acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said in his work, "Sermons on the Christian Life--Its Hopes, Its Fears, and Its Close" (6th ed., London, 1859, p.324):

"The evidence for our Lord’s life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad.

Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up a most important cause. I myself have done it many times over, not to persuade others, but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead" (ref.7, pp.425-426).

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:36 AM ET #3242

Continued...

No historic fact in the Bible ever has been shown to be in error.

The Bible text has been used time and again by archaeologists to locate long-lost sites of cities and towns mentioned in the Bible by geographical references made to them.

One archaeological discovery, the Ebla site, contained rich archives of clay tablets, an ancient "library" if you will. In these tablets were references to ancient Biblical characters (i.e., Abraham) and sites (i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah) (ref.8, p.83).

The ancient city of Babylon of the famous king Nebuchadnezzar yielded 2500-year-old cuneiform tablets (now located in the British Museum) that contained the name of Jehoichin King of Judah who, along with the inhabitants of Judah, was deported to Babylon as a prisoner after the conquest of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar.

The tablets dated and described the conquest itself.

This discovery substantiates the story recorded in the Bible in 2 Kings, chapter 24 (ref.8, pp.301-304).

Any historical statement made in the Bible that has archeological, geographical, or scientific references that have come to surface has been verified by the physical evidences provided by discoveries in these different areas.

References:

God, "The Holy Bible," by Revelation of the Holy Spirit

Green, Michael, "Man Alive," Downer’s Grove, IL 60515: Inter-Varsity Press, 1968

McDowell, Josh, "Research in Christian Evidences"

McDowell, Josh, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," Here's Life Publishers, 1986

Smith, Wilbur M., "A Great Certainty in This Hour of World Crisis," Wheaton: Van Kampen Press, 1951

Morison, Frank, "Who Moved the Stone?", London: Faber And Faber, 1967

Smith, Wilbur M., "Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics," Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, copyright 1965

Keller, Werner, "The Bible as History," Bantam Books, NY, 1988

Bruce, F. F. (ed.), "The New International Commentary on the New Testament," Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eedmans Publishing Co., 1971

Annals XV, 44, A.D.112

The Passing Pereguis, Early second century

Antiquities, xviii, 33, Early second century

Curtis, George, "The Military Discipline of the Romans from the Founding of the City to the Close of the Republic," An abstract of a thesis published under the auspices of the Graduate Council of Indiana University, 1928

Dion, Hal, Antiq. Rom.VIII, 79

0

Report User

Continued...

No historic fact in the Bible ever has been shown to be in error.

The Bible text has been used time and again by archaeologists to locate long-lost sites of cities and towns mentioned in the Bible by geographical references made to them.

One archaeological discovery, the Ebla site, contained rich archives of clay tablets, an ancient "library" if you will. In these tablets were references to ancient Biblical characters (i.e., Abraham) and sites (i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah) (ref.8, p.83).

The ancient city of Babylon of the famous king Nebuchadnezzar yielded 2500-year-old cuneiform tablets (now located in the British Museum) that contained the name of Jehoichin King of Judah who, along with the inhabitants of Judah, was deported to Babylon as a prisoner after the conquest of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar.

The tablets dated and described the conquest itself.

This discovery substantiates the story recorded in the Bible in 2 Kings, chapter 24 (ref.8, pp.301-304).

Any historical statement made in the Bible that has archeological, geographical, or scientific references that have come to surface has been verified by the physical evidences provided by discoveries in these different areas.

References:

God, "The Holy Bible," by Revelation of the Holy Spirit

Green, Michael, "Man Alive," Downer’s Grove, IL 60515: Inter-Varsity Press, 1968

McDowell, Josh, "Research in Christian Evidences"

McDowell, Josh, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," Here's Life Publishers, 1986

Smith, Wilbur M., "A Great Certainty in This Hour of World Crisis," Wheaton: Van Kampen Press, 1951

Morison, Frank, "Who Moved the Stone?", London: Faber And Faber, 1967

Smith, Wilbur M., "Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics," Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, copyright 1965

Keller, Werner, "The Bible as History," Bantam Books, NY, 1988

Bruce, F. F. (ed.), "The New International Commentary on the New Testament," Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eedmans Publishing Co., 1971

Annals XV, 44, A.D.112

The Passing Pereguis, Early second century

Antiquities, xviii, 33, Early second century

Curtis, George, "The Military Discipline of the Romans from the Founding of the City to the Close of the Republic," An abstract of a thesis published under the auspices of the Graduate Council of Indiana University, 1928

Dion, Hal, Antiq. Rom.VIII, 79

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2007

Posts: 2955

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:37 AM ET #3243

Quote Originally Posted by offensivestr:

Ostraca (inscribed potsherds) Over 100 ostraca inscribed in biblical Hebrew (in paleo-Hebrew script) were found in the citadel of Arad. This is the largest and richest collection of inscriptions from the biblical period ever discovered in Israel. The letters are from all periods of the citadel's existence, but most date to the last decades of the kingdom of Judah. Dates and several names of places in the Negev are mentioned, including Be'er Sheva.

Just more and more coming from OUTSIDE the Bible

More noisy bullshit. We are not debating that people didn't live before we were born, maybe even build homes, make things they may need to get through life (like a pot to piss in). We are debating the bible's claim of a god, and the likelyhood that she actually exists.

Harry Potter's novels mention the city London. It is a real, and actual city, like named cities in the bible. Does that make Harry Potter's world of magic anymore real?

So your argument is, if a text uses actual real place settings, then the imaginary beings which I color it with are real as well. Another epic fail by the mentally challenged.

I'd rather be playing D&D.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:39 AM ET #3244

There are so many historical statements made in the Bible that has archeological, geographical, or scientific references that are out there, that I could fill hundereds of pages within this thread.

I will list a few more, but to continue to do so, will become boring!

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:42 AM ET #3245

Quote Originally Posted by jagerfury:

More noisy bullshit. We are not debating that people didn't live before we were born, maybe even build homes, make things they may need to get through life (like a pot to piss in). We are debating the bible's claim of a god, and the likelyhood that she actually exists.

Harry Potter's novels mention the city London. It is a real, and actual city, like named cities in the bible. Does that make Harry Potter's world of magic anymore real?

So your argument is, if a text uses actual real place settings, then the imaginary beings which I color it with are real as well. Another epic fail by the mentally challenged.

So, what are you guys asking precisely?

Evidence of the Bible...I gave it.

Evidence of God/Christ...I gave it.

Evidence of creation...I gave it.

0

Report User

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:43 AM ET #3246

Ok so your argument jagerfury is that the bible is extremely accurate and valid and has been proven to be so.

Atheists just get to take parts out of a document that has proven to be valid whenever and wherever they want. That is so convenient

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2007

Posts: 2955

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:46 AM ET #3247

Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

References:

God, "The Holy Bible," by Revelation of the Holy Spirit

Green, Michael, "Man Alive," Downer’s Grove, IL 60515: Inter-Varsity Press, 1968

McDowell, Josh, "Research in Christian Evidences"

McDowell, Josh, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict," Here's Life Publishers, 1986

Smith, Wilbur M., "A Great Certainty in This Hour of World Crisis," Wheaton: Van Kampen Press, 1951

Morison, Frank, "Who Moved the Stone?", London: Faber And Faber, 1967

Smith, Wilbur M., "Therefore Stand: Christian Apologetics," Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, copyright 1965

Keller, Werner, "The Bible as History," Bantam Books, NY, 1988

Bruce, F. F. (ed.), "The New International Commentary on the New Testament," Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eedmans Publishing Co., 1971

Annals XV, 44, A.D.112

The Passing Pereguis, Early second century

Antiquities, xviii, 33, Early second century

Curtis, George, "The Military Discipline of the Romans from the Founding of the City to the Close of the Republic," An abstract of a thesis published under the auspices of the Graduate Council of Indiana University, 1928

Dion, Hal, Antiq. Rom.VIII, 79

Christian publishing houses peddling their agenda does not count as peer reviewed sources. It is just an adjunct to your basic text, which needs a lot of support because it doesn't hold up to your laughable claims. Hence the need for books like "Who Moved the Stone?", because the basic proposition is so laughable there needs to be plenty of smoke and mirrors to keep the game going. Kinda like the great and terrible oz, pay no mind to the man behind the curtain...

I'd rather be playing D&D.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Aug, 2007

Posts: 1080

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:50 AM ET #3248

The Bible is the Word of God VS the Apocrypha, the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon...

The question of which (if any) religious text is the true word of God is of utmost importance.

To avoid circular reasoning, the first question we must ask is: how would we know if God communicated in the first place?

Well, God would have to communicate in a manner that people could understand, but that also means that people could make up their own messages and simply claim that they came from God.

So, it seems reasonable to think that if God wanted to authenticate His communication He would have to verify it in a manner that could not be duplicated by mere humans - in other words, by miracles. This narrows the field considerably.

Beyond the evidence for the Bible's correctness (manuscript evidence) and its historicity (archeological evidence), the most important evidence is that of its inspiration.

The real determination of the Bible's claim to absolute inspired truth is in its supernatural evidence, including prophecy.

God used prophets to speak and write down His Word and God uses miracles like fulfilled prophecy to authenticate His messengers.

For example, in Genesis 12:7, God promises that the land of Israel was to be for Abraham and his descendants. In 1948 Israel was returned back to the Jewish people for the second time in history.

This may not seem so astonishing until you realize that no nation in the history of the world has been scattered from its homeland and returned! Israel has done it twice.

The book of Daniel predicts with accuracy the coming of the four great kingdoms from Babylon, to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome centuries before some of those kingdoms came on the scene (a time span of over 1,000 years!) with details concerning how they would rule and be broken. This includes the reigns of Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanies.

In Ezekiel 26 we can see in astonishing detail how the city of Tyre was to be destroyed, how it would be torn down, and how its debris would be thrown into the sea.

When Alexander the Great marched on that area, he encountered a group of people holed up in a tower on an island off the coast near there. He could not cross the sea, so he could not fight those in the tower. Rather than wait them out, the proud conqueror had his army throw stones into the sea to build a land bridge to the tower. It worked. His army crossed the sea and overthrew the occupants of the stronghold.

But where did he get so much stone? The rocks that were used for the land bridge were the leftover rubble from the city of Tyre . . . its stones cast into the sea!

There are so many prophecies concerning Christ (over 270!) that it would take more than a few screens worth of space to list them all.

Further, Jesus would have had no control over many of them such as His birthplace or time of birth.

Second, the odds of one man accidentally fulfilling even 16 of these are 1 in 10^45. How many is that?

For comparison, there are less than 10^82 atoms in the entire universe! And Jesus, who affirmed the Bible as the Word of God, proved His reliability and deity by His resurrection (an historical fact not easily ignored)....

0

Report User

The Bible is the Word of God VS the Apocrypha, the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon...

The question of which (if any) religious text is the true word of God is of utmost importance.

To avoid circular reasoning, the first question we must ask is: how would we know if God communicated in the first place?

Well, God would have to communicate in a manner that people could understand, but that also means that people could make up their own messages and simply claim that they came from God.

So, it seems reasonable to think that if God wanted to authenticate His communication He would have to verify it in a manner that could not be duplicated by mere humans - in other words, by miracles. This narrows the field considerably.

Beyond the evidence for the Bible's correctness (manuscript evidence) and its historicity (archeological evidence), the most important evidence is that of its inspiration.

The real determination of the Bible's claim to absolute inspired truth is in its supernatural evidence, including prophecy.

God used prophets to speak and write down His Word and God uses miracles like fulfilled prophecy to authenticate His messengers.

For example, in Genesis 12:7, God promises that the land of Israel was to be for Abraham and his descendants. In 1948 Israel was returned back to the Jewish people for the second time in history.

This may not seem so astonishing until you realize that no nation in the history of the world has been scattered from its homeland and returned! Israel has done it twice.

The book of Daniel predicts with accuracy the coming of the four great kingdoms from Babylon, to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome centuries before some of those kingdoms came on the scene (a time span of over 1,000 years!) with details concerning how they would rule and be broken. This includes the reigns of Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanies.

In Ezekiel 26 we can see in astonishing detail how the city of Tyre was to be destroyed, how it would be torn down, and how its debris would be thrown into the sea.

When Alexander the Great marched on that area, he encountered a group of people holed up in a tower on an island off the coast near there. He could not cross the sea, so he could not fight those in the tower. Rather than wait them out, the proud conqueror had his army throw stones into the sea to build a land bridge to the tower. It worked. His army crossed the sea and overthrew the occupants of the stronghold.

But where did he get so much stone? The rocks that were used for the land bridge were the leftover rubble from the city of Tyre . . . its stones cast into the sea!

There are so many prophecies concerning Christ (over 270!) that it would take more than a few screens worth of space to list them all.

Further, Jesus would have had no control over many of them such as His birthplace or time of birth.

Second, the odds of one man accidentally fulfilling even 16 of these are 1 in 10^45. How many is that?

For comparison, there are less than 10^82 atoms in the entire universe! And Jesus, who affirmed the Bible as the Word of God, proved His reliability and deity by His resurrection (an historical fact not easily ignored)....

Prospect

Participation Meter

Joined: Nov, 2008

Posts: 285

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:50 AM ET #3249

Quote Originally Posted by jagerfury:

Christian publishing houses peddling their agenda does not count as peer reviewed sources. It is just an adjunct to your basic text, which needs a lot of support because it doesn't hold up to your laughable claims. Hence the need for books like "Who Moved the Stone?", because the basic proposition is so laughable there needs to be plenty of smoke and mirrors to keep the game going. Kinda like the great and terrible oz, pay no mind to the man behind the curtain...

See Matt4000, that's how closed off they are,

They run from facts.

0

Report User

Veteran

Participation Meter

Joined: Feb, 2007

Posts: 2955

Posted: Dec. 25, 2011 - 1:50 AM ET #3250

Quote Originally Posted by offensivestr:

Ok so your argument jagerfury is that the bible is extremely accurate and valid and has been proven to be so.

Atheists just get to take parts out of a document that has proven to be valid whenever and wherever they want. That is so convenient

Are you debating whether ancient cities existed, or that god exists? Because that is a quick one; I agree there are people who lived, and died before me. I imagine that they also built structures to live in, and fashioned tools for daily living.

But that is not what we are debating, is it?

I'd rather be playing D&D.

0

Report User

All Forums | General Discussion

Contact Us
Careers
Our Team
Brand
Testimonials

Sportsbook Reviews
Sports Betting News
Podcasts
Responsible Gaming

US Betting Sites
Canada Betting Sites
Canada Casinos
Best Betting Apps

Streak Survivor
King of Covers
Ultimate Race
Office Pools

The Covers community has

618,670

lifetime members worldwide

Join our community today

Established in 1995,
Covers is the world
leader in sports
betting information.

Site Map Help Privacy Terms of Service

Covers is verified safe by: Evalon Logo

Copyright © 1995 - 2025 CS Media Limited All Rights Reserved.

If you choose to make use of any information on this website including online sports betting services from any websites that may be featured on this website, we strongly recommend that you carefully check your local laws before doing so.It is your sole responsibility to understand your local laws and observe them strictly.Covers does not provide any advice or guidance as to the legality of online sports betting or other online gambling activities within your jurisdiction and you are responsible for complying with laws that are applicable to you in your relevant locality.Covers disclaims all liability associated with your use of this website and use of any information contained on it.As a condition of using this website, you agree to hold the owner of this website harmless from any claims arising from your use of any services on any third party website that may be featured by Covers.