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Lets be honest about religion

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Posted: #126
Kapono - There is no reason for us to contemplate the existence of things that are outside the laws of the universe. We cannot start from that position because it logically does not make sense. Is it possible that in the distant future it may make sense? Of course, we don't know what we will discover in the future. But based on our knowledge now we can't go outside the bounds of reality.

Tim - I understand that you have had positive experiences, but that is my point. It is all relative. You believe in god because you obviously enjoy life and think god has provided you with a wonderful life. That is excellent for you. But what about all the people who have horrible lives? How can you expect them to believe in god? I know this is straying from your point so I will conclude with this. Thank you for being honest and acknowledging that there are questions you cannot answer as opposed to making up some bullshit answers that only piss the rest of us off. So at this point, we can agree to end the argument as I have no problem with your stance.
 
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Posted: #127
"Kapono - There is no reason for us to contemplate the existence of things that are outside the laws of the universe. We cannot start from that position because it logically does not make sense. Is it possible that in the distant future it may make sense? Of course, we don't know what we will discover in the future. But based on our knowledge now we can't go outside the bounds of reality."

This is kinda just punting the question on your behalf, Kitty. You're a smart guy, I can tell by how you write. I would agree that we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God using science as we currently understand it. But why do you think that this fact means that we should not contemplate the existence of things outside of those laws? I mean the concept of "love" cannot really be measured by science, but millions of people experience this.
 
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Posted: #128

[Quote: Originally Posted by HutchEmAll] If God created heavan and earth, who created God? [/Quote

Comparing the rules of this earth / universe to that of the Supernatural?

 
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Posted: #129
Atheist have no  purpose after life..unless they may  believe in reincarnation.

They have no faith.

Most are driven by material things and although they are quick witted they are also quick tempered.


 
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Posted: #130
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

The difference between the atheist and the believer is I have the power to state things as fact. EVERYTHING the believer states is speculative to some degree.
 
Really? So when you have a headache, you can prove that?
Fact: It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove the existence of god.
Fact: There is absolutely NOTHING substantial supporting the argument that even if there is a creator of the universe, it has anything to do with Christmas, Jesus, a cross, person, or whatever. Even if we accept Rostos' argument that something had to have created the universe, what that something is that created the universe could be literally ANYTHING.
 
So despite the fact that we have testimonial accounts of Jesus and his ressurection isnt evidence? The fact that there was INDEPENDENT verification of Jesus isnt anything? The fact that people were prepared to die for this isnt anything?

So, let me revise my statements a bit as they came off a bit harsh. I can understand why people want to believe in god and if you do, it's ok. My problem with god is not so much believing one exists, it's worshipping and praying to that god because you have absolutely NO IDEA who or what that creator is. That is why going to church is a waste of time unless you acknowledge that you are doing it because it makes you feel better or because your dying mother asked you to and it makes her feel better or because you think you have "found god" and it made your life better (like Josh Hamilton-if that's what works for him, great, kudos to him, to each his own, but it has absolutely 0 impact on the odds of a god existing.
What are those reasons that we believe? Cause we are so terrified of death?  And you are so strong cause you dont believe?
 
No idea who he is? Funny, cause the bible gives us a great description of him.
 
Waste of time? I can give you my personal account but i give Josh Hamilton cause he is famous and people here can relate to him. I can give you several other high profile athletes who are in the same position as him.

And Hutch - the theists don't feel like they have to answer who created god because god is supernatural. For some reason they find it more plausible that god always existed and he created everything as opposed to whatever it is that the universe actually is always existed and certain things were just always there because UNDOUBTEDLY 100% FACT: SOMETHING had to always have existed.
 
Again, applying the rules of this earth / universe to a realm outside it. Do you also think we would need to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner in the supernatural to keep alive? Do you think we need the sun and oxygen for survival there as well? How about some clothing to keep warm?

 
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Posted: #131
Quote Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

Even if supernatural, wouldn't God still have to be created from something.  The argument I'm hearing for God by some people is that something can't be created from nothing.  Well, even if supernatural, they are arguing that God exists.  By very definition, something that exists has to be created from something....does it not?  I just want to know where God was created from.  Simple question. 

In this Supernatural World something cant come from nothing. The atheist as i said ONLY believes in this natural world we live in, nothing outside it. The fact that the universe had a beginning corners the atheist into a wall to believe that space, time and matter created itself from nothing, by nothing for nothing. When i say nothing, i mean nothing, the thing that rocks dream about.

What do we know about the supernatural? How do we know something cant come from nothing in that world? What do we know about the physics and laws of the supernatural?

 

 
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Posted: #132

Quote Originally Posted by kaponofor3:



Not directed to me Hutch, but existence in the sense of explaining God can only really be comprehended by humans based on our sensory perceptions, understanding of space-time, etc.. Put differently, I find it completely plausible (probable? I don't know, but plausible) that "God" exists outside of human perception and understanding of the dimensions that we can comprehend. In that sense, "God" could easily create everything (or initiate the Big Bang, which is what I tend to lean towards) while having nothing create him. Why? Because we only understand the laws of physics, time, creation, etc. in our own universe, of which God is outside of.

Hopefully that makes some sense

YES, FINALLY someone that understands.

 
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Posted: #133
I respect your ability to debate intelligently so I will try and respond the best I can. I don't wanna get away from the point by focusing on "love" but "love" is a human emotion. You can't measure it, but it exists. However, it is directly related to a certain portion of your brain. For example (and I'm no brain expert so I don't know the details) but if you remove a certain portion of your brain, your feelings will change, your personality will change, and your ability to love as well as who or what you love will change. So in a sense, it is measurable by science. The problem with contemplating things outside of reality is they are immeasurable; in other words, purely speculative. There is nothing science can do to test them. The definition of the term "supernatural" is something beyond the natural world. There is simply no way as humans we can ever explore it.
 
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Posted: #134
And once again thank you kapono for addressing the things I say as opposed to Rostos who disregards what I'm trying to say and makes his own arguments that are apples to oranges.
 
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Posted: #135
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

The difference between the atheist and the believer is I have the power to state things as fact. EVERYTHING the believer states is speculative to some degree.

Fact: It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove the existence of god.
Fact: There is absolutely NOTHING substantial supporting the argument that even if there is a creator of the universe, it has anything to do with Christmas, Jesus, a cross, person, or whatever. Even if we accept Rostos' argument that something had to have created the universe, what that something is that created the universe could be literally ANYTHING.

So, let me revise my statements a bit as they came off a bit harsh. I can understand why people want to believe in god and if you do, it's ok. My problem with god is not so much believing one exists, it's worshipping and praying to that god because you have absolutely NO IDEA who or what that creator is. That is why going to church is a waste of time unless you acknowledge that you are doing it because it makes you feel better or because your dying mother asked you to and it makes her feel better or because you think you have "found god" and it made your life better (like Josh Hamilton-if that's what works for him, great, kudos to him, to each his own, but it has absolutely 0 impact on the odds of a god existing.

And Hutch - the theists don't feel like they have to answer who created god because god is supernatural. For some reason they find it more plausible that god always existed and he created everything as opposed to whatever it is that the universe actually is always existed and certain things were just always there because UNDOUBTEDLY 100% FACT: SOMETHING had to always have existed.

"With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape: they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning."

Alexander Vilenkin

Professor of Physics and Director of the Institute of Cosmology at Tufts university

 
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Posted: #136
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Kapono - Yes, it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to disprove the existence of god. However, the burden of proof is on the one's making the claim.

Example: I am closing my fist and I say to you "There is a butterfly in my hand." Are you going to blindly accept what I say as true? (You may lol but obviously you shouldn't) The logical next step is to say "Show me." at which point you will be able to see whether or not I was telling the truth.
 
Doesnt matter, either way, we can PROVE OR DISPROVE your statement. That is no different to me saying there are Kangaroos playing baseball on Mars. It doesnt matter if what i am saying is true of false, the fact is that it is testable. How is God testable?

You say to me "God exists." The next logical step is for me to say "Show me." The fact that no is able to do this means the logical conclusion is not believe. Like I said, that does not mean there is a 0% chance god exists. All it means is naturally, as a logical and rational person, I reject the idea that something I can't see is real unless it can be proved to me.
 
Now this is your ultimate problem. God wants our relationship with him to be based on faith. We are sinners, we are not worthy to "SEE" his holiness in this life. Again, you want things on YOUR terms, who are you to say how God should act?

Furthermore, prior to the big bang, we don't know what there was. But if there was literally "nothing" then that means that whatever caused the big bang simply "always existed" because there was no before. I know it is natural to rebut this by saying "but if there was nothing before, then the spark of the big bang came from nothing." But think about this logically for a second, if there was literally nothing before the big bang, then there's nothing to discuss about it. There is no reason to posture about what existed before time because it is impossible for anything to have existed before time. So if the first particle ever to exist was that which sparked the big bang, then that means that particle or whatever it was has existed for all of time, in other words: it always existed. Is it possible that this sequence of events was all set into motion by god. Absolutely. There are an infinite number of explanations. I just see no reason to jump to a conclusion that defies the laws of the universe as we know them unless I'm given a reason to do so.
 
Again, you sound like a fool for even entertaining the idea of the thing that rocks dream about causing the big bang.

And as for callmetim, please don't go into diseases and miracles because that is an argument I can easily win and will do so right now with a series of questions.

Why doesn't god heal amputees? Who are you to say what he should do and not do?
Why does god allow people to get sick in the first place? Are we Gods pets? he OBVIOUSLY has a plan for each one of us. He is the giver and taker of life. He is under no obligation to anyone to prolong or extend anyones life.
Why is god responsible for healing those lucky ones who beat cancer or other seemingly fatal illnesses and not the doctors who worked effortlessly to save that person's life? Read my quote from Isiah above.

And no, you are not allowed to say "god acts in mysterious ways" or "we don't know god's plan" or any bullshit like that.
 
Says who? You? Who are you? A sinner?
 
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Posted: #137
I refuse to respond to you Rostos because your arguments are so flawed that logic can't even begin to seep through. I DON'T PLACE GOD ABOVE HUMANS therefore I can judge him however I want.
 
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Posted: #138

If they are flawed, how come you cant debunk them?

You refuse to answer cause you know the truth and logic cannot be argued against.

 
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Posted: #139
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

I respect your ability to debate intelligently so I will try and respond the best I can. I don't wanna get away from the point by focusing on "love" but "love" is a human emotion. You can't measure it, but it exists. However, it is directly related to a certain portion of your brain. For example (and I'm no brain expert so I don't know the details) but if you remove a certain portion of your brain, your feelings will change, your personality will change, and your ability to love as well as who or what you love will change. So in a sense, it is measurable by science. The problem with contemplating things outside of reality is they are immeasurable; in other words, purely speculative. There is nothing science can do to test them. The definition of the term "supernatural" is something beyond the natural world. There is simply no way as humans we can ever explore it.


I agree Kitty, "love" is a human emotion. You can't measure it, but you know it exists. How do we know it exists? We know it exists because we can measure it. But posit this -- what are we really measuring? We're not really measuring "love" or really any emotion -- we're measuring physical changes in one's body, one's brain, one's endorphins. But we all know that the *feeling* of love also exists, and there is really no way to measure the strength of the love, the intensity... but  obviously there is a wide spectrum of it, we know that through experience although it can't really be "measured". The same understanding that makes me know that there are things out there that exist, that we experience, that nevertheless can't be measured scientifically makes me think it is folly to rule out the possibility of some higher intelligence, call it what you may, that created the subset of rules under which we experience life (our universe and the physical laws that apply).
 
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Posted: #140
Quote Originally Posted by vetdrm:

Atheist have no  purpose after life..unless they may  believe in reincarnation.

They have no faith.

Most are driven by material things and although they are quick witted they are also quick tempered.



When they have/had a whack job like this to follow, It's hard to take them serious...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair
 
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Posted: #141
Rostos - I have debunked them, you just refuse to accept it. Go reread the other thread. I'm not going through it again.

Kapono - I'm not ruling out the possibility, I'm just saying it's not the natural and logical conclusion one should reach.
 
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Posted: #142
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Rostos - I have debunked them, you just refuse to accept it. Go reread the other thread. I'm not going through it again.

Kapono - I'm not ruling out the possibility, I'm just saying it's not the natural and logical conclusion one should reach.

You debunked them?

What are you doing on Covers then? Why arent you selling tens of millions of books seeing as though you have the ANSWERS to lifes deepest questions.?

 
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Posted: #143
I'm done with your nonsense. There are plenty of people capable of an intelligent debate about this, but you are so blind and ignorant there is no point.
 
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Posted: #144
I've been seeing this thread for days now and never clicked on it. I don't have time to read 140 posts. With a thread title "Let's Be Honest About Religion" did anyone think this was going to be a non-partisan topic. That would be like me starting a topic titled "Let's Be Honest About Blacks" or "Let's Be Honest About Gays."
 
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Posted: #145
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

I'm done with your nonsense. There are plenty of people capable of an intelligent debate about this, but you are so blind and ignorant there is no point.


Yeah shut up go pray to your master I know all about you fools, your going to lose no matter what so keep your bullshit out of my airspace.
 
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Posted: #146
Quote Originally Posted by OnlyGod:



Yeah shut up go pray to your master I know all about you fools, your going to lose no matter what so keep your bullshit out of my airspace.

typical

 Matthew 5:22 

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.


guess you're losing too  

 
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Posted: #147
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


  

 
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Posted: #148
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

In this Supernatural World something cant come from nothing. The atheist as i said ONLY believes in this natural world we live in, nothing outside it. The fact that the universe had a beginning corners the atheist into a wall to believe that space, time and matter created itself from nothing, by nothing for nothing. When i say nothing, i mean nothing, the thing that rocks dream about.

What do we know about the supernatural? How do we know something cant come from nothing in that world? What do we know about the physics and laws of the supernatural?

 

The difference is, I don't claim to know certain things about the "supernatural."  You do.  And I don't know how you can know.  I'm just being honest with myself. 

 
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Posted: #149
Quote Originally Posted by ClubDirt:


i don't want to generalize about churchgoers as i'm sure peoploe have many reasons to go to church beyod what the original poster stated.  that being said, because of what i do, i bet i've met more born again christians than most people in this world.  it's amazing how many child mo0lesters, murderes, rapsists, and really, bad fuckin people are born again christians and want to tell me how all the truly bad shit they have done is ok now because of their god and this whole born again christian loohole.  

i've only met one born again christian in my normal social circles and he is pretty fuckin weird but for the most part, this is a scary group.  


They are brainwashed and use the "born-again" shtick as a crutch
 
 
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Posted: #150
Everything in the universe is a miracle. there's no way of describing something you cannot comprehend. just like you cannot comprehend the power of "love/hate" but think you do.

Life on this planet (or others) is no coincidence, it didn't just happen out of no where, if it did, it wasn't an accident...the fact that we would all be dead if the planet was a few degree closer or further away from the sun, that itself is a miracle.

I think non believers want to believe but want proof, while believers don't need proof because they know it in their heart. then there are others who witnessed or experienced something in their lives to make them believe. neither should judge the other nor disrespect the other, after all we are ALL created from this one and only earth.   
Give praise and thanks for all the good things this earth has provided for us through The Almighty One. (All the bad things are man made)

I don't sweat the little things in life anymore...i have found peace because i know the meaning of life.












  

 
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