Ok, here is something for you gentleman to have a think about....
Skeptics such as yourselves have been around since humanity began.
Meaning, skeptics were around the time of Jesus and obviously after.
Here is the question. Why arent their any counter claims / writings at the time of Jesus or just after when the Gospels were being written?
Think of this. At the time of Jesus and just after when the gospels were written, we saw a transformation of scoeity based on these gospels. That is, the construction and establishment of Churches, persecution of Gospel followers, people devoting their lives to the gospel, ie, Priests , bishops etc etc....
So, if you are a skeptic at that time, society is changing. As a skeptic, wouldnt you go and INVESTIGATE the claims being made in the gospels?
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion,
Why did it take so long for them to be written is a better questionyou would think someone would write about a person rising from the dead a lot sooner
therefore, many if not all of the people mentioned in the gospels, WERE STILL around, or most definitly there children....
THis is made much more easier as it was a small country town where the majority of people knew each other, , ie, not like NYC people know only a small percentage of each other...
Here is an example. We know about the story of Elizabeth and her husband Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead. If you are a skeptic, read this, and people started to change their lives based on this....wouldnt you as a skeptic go to Elizabeth or at least her children and ask if it really happened? Or what about the claim that Jesus fed 5000 people with fish and bread?
These are claims that around the time of the gospels were written would be well known facts TO EVERYONE.......yet if not true,
WHY WASNT THEIR ANYONE, ESPECIALLY skeptics investigating these many claims and documented these?
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
Ok, here is something for you gentleman to have a think about....
Skeptics such as yourselves have been around since humanity began.
Meaning, skeptics were around the time of Jesus and obviously after.
Here is the question. Why arent their any counter claims / writings at the time of Jesus or just after when the Gospels were being written?
Think of this. At the time of Jesus and just after when the gospels were written, we saw a transformation of scoeity based on these gospels. That is, the construction and establishment of Churches, persecution of Gospel followers, people devoting their lives to the gospel, ie, Priests , bishops etc etc....
So, if you are a skeptic at that time, society is changing. As a skeptic, wouldnt you go and INVESTIGATE the claims being made in the gospels?
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion,
Why did it take so long for them to be written is a better questionyou would think someone would write about a person rising from the dead a lot sooner
therefore, many if not all of the people mentioned in the gospels, WERE STILL around, or most definitly there children....
THis is made much more easier as it was a small country town where the majority of people knew each other, , ie, not like NYC people know only a small percentage of each other...
Here is an example. We know about the story of Elizabeth and her husband Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead. If you are a skeptic, read this, and people started to change their lives based on this....wouldnt you as a skeptic go to Elizabeth or at least her children and ask if it really happened? Or what about the claim that Jesus fed 5000 people with fish and bread?
These are claims that around the time of the gospels were written would be well known facts TO EVERYONE.......yet if not true,
WHY WASNT THEIR ANYONE, ESPECIALLY skeptics investigating these many claims and documented these?
The one group of "believers" that fall outside of your "brainwashed", or "raised to believe" theory are the people whom simply have nothing else, or truly anywhere else to turn. People that have experienced great loss in life, or have struggled with certain ailments or dependencies often turn to God in an attempt to make sense of it all. In many cases, these very same people often rejected faith or were not raised to be faithful. In that respect, faith serves as a positive conduit in the healing process. However, a blind faith in any religion is a very dangerous thing, and unfortunately there is a lot of this type of thinking in severely empoverished areas....this can lead to easily manipulated masses.
Personally, as a young man I believed strictly in random chance......I figured that everyone's life on the planet is similiar to a giant random number generator that spits out outcomes of lives in an infinite fashion. This made sense to me...some win and some lose. The problem is, that the more a man examines his surroundings and studies complex subjects (such as fractal geometry, chaos theory, even secondary historical accounts of major events....as well as the very nature of life and death as it relates to us humans) he starts to see very real patterns and ebbs and flows to the percieved reality as we know it.
To deny the possibility of an "order" or "consciousness" that acts as a higher power (ie a god), in my opinion is naive. There is an order in the chaos, and unfortunately it is way beyond any human understanding. Most likely, that too is by design.
Everyone that is quick to chastise others for believing should spend more time trying to figure out what exactly they believe and why they believe it.
Everyone whom pushes thier beliefs on others should examine not only what they believe, but why they believe it.
In the end, no one knows much about it all. Anyone whom claims to know is further from the truth than one whom accepts that he does not know.
Never Make A Winner A Loser. Never.
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The one group of "believers" that fall outside of your "brainwashed", or "raised to believe" theory are the people whom simply have nothing else, or truly anywhere else to turn. People that have experienced great loss in life, or have struggled with certain ailments or dependencies often turn to God in an attempt to make sense of it all. In many cases, these very same people often rejected faith or were not raised to be faithful. In that respect, faith serves as a positive conduit in the healing process. However, a blind faith in any religion is a very dangerous thing, and unfortunately there is a lot of this type of thinking in severely empoverished areas....this can lead to easily manipulated masses.
Personally, as a young man I believed strictly in random chance......I figured that everyone's life on the planet is similiar to a giant random number generator that spits out outcomes of lives in an infinite fashion. This made sense to me...some win and some lose. The problem is, that the more a man examines his surroundings and studies complex subjects (such as fractal geometry, chaos theory, even secondary historical accounts of major events....as well as the very nature of life and death as it relates to us humans) he starts to see very real patterns and ebbs and flows to the percieved reality as we know it.
To deny the possibility of an "order" or "consciousness" that acts as a higher power (ie a god), in my opinion is naive. There is an order in the chaos, and unfortunately it is way beyond any human understanding. Most likely, that too is by design.
Everyone that is quick to chastise others for believing should spend more time trying to figure out what exactly they believe and why they believe it.
Everyone whom pushes thier beliefs on others should examine not only what they believe, but why they believe it.
In the end, no one knows much about it all. Anyone whom claims to know is further from the truth than one whom accepts that he does not know.
You realize how these stories may have become exaggerated or distorted over 50 years right? That's a long time for people to try and tell the same story with the utmost accuracy.
Are you making a claim that they were distorted? If they were distorted, it still doesnt answer why their were no writings making counter claims.
It reminds me of how many people claim to have been at the game where Wilt Chamberlin scored 100 points in a single basketball game. Or even the children's game of telephone.
I also have to question how many people were still around after the crucifixion as well. I'm no expert on the matter but I don't think the average life span back then was nearly as long as it is nowadays. Just my opinion. Now factor in that old people don't exactly have the best memory. Maybe this stuff was written down somewhere but I don't know how reliable literacy rates were back then.
Well, the first gospels were written around 50 years after Christ, so i would like to think their were still a fair few people, and also their children. Surely if what happened was true, the parents would tell their children. If a man raised your father from the dead, wouldnt you know about it?
Just some points that came to my mind when reading your response.
For the record, my philosophy is if you want to believe in God then go for it. Just don't push your beliefs on me.
This isnt about that, this is more about defending beliefs..
And someone tell those fucking Mormons to stop knocking on my door....especially during football season. .
Well, they are just trying i suppose.
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Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain:
You realize how these stories may have become exaggerated or distorted over 50 years right? That's a long time for people to try and tell the same story with the utmost accuracy.
Are you making a claim that they were distorted? If they were distorted, it still doesnt answer why their were no writings making counter claims.
It reminds me of how many people claim to have been at the game where Wilt Chamberlin scored 100 points in a single basketball game. Or even the children's game of telephone.
I also have to question how many people were still around after the crucifixion as well. I'm no expert on the matter but I don't think the average life span back then was nearly as long as it is nowadays. Just my opinion. Now factor in that old people don't exactly have the best memory. Maybe this stuff was written down somewhere but I don't know how reliable literacy rates were back then.
Well, the first gospels were written around 50 years after Christ, so i would like to think their were still a fair few people, and also their children. Surely if what happened was true, the parents would tell their children. If a man raised your father from the dead, wouldnt you know about it?
Just some points that came to my mind when reading your response.
For the record, my philosophy is if you want to believe in God then go for it. Just don't push your beliefs on me.
This isnt about that, this is more about defending beliefs..
And someone tell those fucking Mormons to stop knocking on my door....especially during football season. .
Sure, Literacy rates were about 5-7% of the population back then, meaning, hardly anyone could read or write.......The main form of communication back then was via oral transmssion......but it eventually got written down for future generations.....
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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
Sure, Literacy rates were about 5-7% of the population back then, meaning, hardly anyone could read or write.......The main form of communication back then was via oral transmssion......but it eventually got written down for future generations.....
Scholars generally agree that Jesus died between 30-36 AD. The Gospel of Mark was written around 55 A.D. so that means it was written approx. 22 years after the crucifixion and not 50 years as you have mentioned.
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Quote Posted by Rostos:
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion.
Scholars generally agree that Jesus died between 30-36 AD. The Gospel of Mark was written around 55 A.D. so that means it was written approx. 22 years after the crucifixion and not 50 years as you have mentioned.
Scholars generally agree that Jesus died between 30-36 AD. The Gospel of Mark was written around 55 A.D. so that means it was written approx. 22 years after the crucifixion and not 50 years as you have mentioned.
Yes, my bad....
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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:
Quote Posted by Rostos:
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion.
Scholars generally agree that Jesus died between 30-36 AD. The Gospel of Mark was written around 55 A.D. so that means it was written approx. 22 years after the crucifixion and not 50 years as you have mentioned.
Sure, Literacy rates were about 5-7% of the population back then, meaning, hardly anyone could read or write.......The main form of communication back then was via oral transmssion......but it eventually got written down for future generations.....
so, it was basically 50 years of word of mouth before it was written
(I'm sure that story never changed), and it's only written in the bible...interesting
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
Sure, Literacy rates were about 5-7% of the population back then, meaning, hardly anyone could read or write.......The main form of communication back then was via oral transmssion......but it eventually got written down for future generations.....
so, it was basically 50 years of word of mouth before it was written
(I'm sure that story never changed), and it's only written in the bible...interesting
so, it was basically 50 years of word of mouth before it was written
(I'm sure that story never changed), and it's only written in the bible...interesting
22 years as SJD correctly pointed out....remember, oral tradition was the main form as hardly anyone could read and write...
Just because it was by oral tradition, doesnt mean anything more or less...
If things are paased down oraly, does that mean false info is going to get passed down? You are effectively dooming something simply because people couldnt read and write back but could only talk.....
Again, if all the claims were rubbish, easy, why didnt they investigate them all and put it to bed? We see none of that...
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Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
so, it was basically 50 years of word of mouth before it was written
(I'm sure that story never changed), and it's only written in the bible...interesting
22 years as SJD correctly pointed out....remember, oral tradition was the main form as hardly anyone could read and write...
Just because it was by oral tradition, doesnt mean anything more or less...
If things are paased down oraly, does that mean false info is going to get passed down? You are effectively dooming something simply because people couldnt read and write back but could only talk.....
Again, if all the claims were rubbish, easy, why didnt they investigate them all and put it to bed? We see none of that...
Scholars generally agree that Jesus died between 30-36 AD. The Gospel of Mark was written around 55 A.D. so that means it was written approx. 22 years after the crucifixion and not 50 years as you have mentioned.
Please list your sources. I'm seeing more like late 60's to 70 A.D. Not that it matters...still a long time...especially for people of that time...as rostos said, literacy rates were 5-7% of population...not very bright...would probably believe anything they were told
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Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:
Quote Posted by Rostos:
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion.
Scholars generally agree that Jesus died between 30-36 AD. The Gospel of Mark was written around 55 A.D. so that means it was written approx. 22 years after the crucifixion and not 50 years as you have mentioned.
Please list your sources. I'm seeing more like late 60's to 70 A.D. Not that it matters...still a long time...especially for people of that time...as rostos said, literacy rates were 5-7% of population...not very bright...would probably believe anything they were told
you guys who say people are dumb if they believe in God are cracking me up. Why are you guys still arguing a question that cannot and willnot ever be answered by another human. That in itself sort of makes you guys dumb.
If you guys who dont believe in God actually can look around and believe your body and everything around you evolved{which by the way is just another man created word and idea} then thats your choice but it certainly doesnt make you smarter then a person who believes in God which his choice.
To RJ, just because people over in sweden dont believe in god, that doesnt mean thats the reason for all the things that happen over there. Kind of foolish to believe that.
no matter what any scientist discovers like in this case with this thread, that doesnt mean they have proved God doesnt exist, because there is no way for them to prove God didnt create everything they discover. All the steven hawkings in the world put togther cant answer the question
live your life beliving there is a God or live your life not believing there is a God, just dont live your life trying to figure out if your belief is true, you wont get the answer
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you guys who say people are dumb if they believe in God are cracking me up. Why are you guys still arguing a question that cannot and willnot ever be answered by another human. That in itself sort of makes you guys dumb.
If you guys who dont believe in God actually can look around and believe your body and everything around you evolved{which by the way is just another man created word and idea} then thats your choice but it certainly doesnt make you smarter then a person who believes in God which his choice.
To RJ, just because people over in sweden dont believe in god, that doesnt mean thats the reason for all the things that happen over there. Kind of foolish to believe that.
no matter what any scientist discovers like in this case with this thread, that doesnt mean they have proved God doesnt exist, because there is no way for them to prove God didnt create everything they discover. All the steven hawkings in the world put togther cant answer the question
live your life beliving there is a God or live your life not believing there is a God, just dont live your life trying to figure out if your belief is true, you wont get the answer
Imagine this - you had never heard about Christianity before today. Someone gives you a book (bible) and you start reading the stories...Say - "God" created the world, Adam and Eve (who we all are descendants from), a talking bush, people rising from death, walking on water etc.. Would you believe that? No. And if you did - you'd be admitted to a mental hospital.
A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, found that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife and so naturally I would believe the bible after I read it thoroughly and carefully in its entirety.
It would explain my existence and the existence of everything around me in that God the Creator created all things in existence.
I have always instinctly or naturally believed in a Higher Being a Creator if you will because I just can't accept the idea or the notion that everything in existence happened by accident because let's be honest with ourselves, if you don't believe in God then you must believe everything happened by accident.
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Originally Posted by RJSmith:
Imagine this - you had never heard about Christianity before today. Someone gives you a book (bible) and you start reading the stories...Say - "God" created the world, Adam and Eve (who we all are descendants from), a talking bush, people rising from death, walking on water etc.. Would you believe that? No. And if you did - you'd be admitted to a mental hospital.
A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, found that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife and so naturally I would believe the bible after I read it thoroughly and carefully in its entirety.
It would explain my existence and the existence of everything around me in that God the Creator created all things in existence.
I have always instinctly or naturally believed in a Higher Being a Creator if you will because I just can't accept the idea or the notion that everything in existence happened by accident because let's be honest with ourselves, if you don't believe in God then you must believe everything happened by accident.
Imagine this - you had never heard about Christianity before today. Someone gives you a book (bible) and you start reading the stories...Say - "God" created the world, Adam and Eve (who we all are descendants from), a talking bush, people rising from death, walking on water etc.. Would you believe that? No. And if you did - you'd be admitted to a mental hospital.
Or
One day some time ago, there was nothing, then all of a sudden, an explosion happened which was uncaused from nothing...Then the rate of expansion from this uncaused explosion was so precise, that if it was slightly faster or slower, the universe would have collapsed, but lucky that it was exactly what was needed for the universe to remain....
Then some planets were formed...Then one day, a lightning hit a pond, and some life started from this...these cells developed that became fish, then these fish for some reason werent content in staying in the water, they wanted to go on land and check things out, so they decided to get some lungs....these animals eventually because ape like ancestors....
Then one day, these ape like ancestors had an itch to go for a walk and evenually became human beings when the returned back...
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Originally Posted by RJSmith:
Imagine this - you had never heard about Christianity before today. Someone gives you a book (bible) and you start reading the stories...Say - "God" created the world, Adam and Eve (who we all are descendants from), a talking bush, people rising from death, walking on water etc.. Would you believe that? No. And if you did - you'd be admitted to a mental hospital.
Or
One day some time ago, there was nothing, then all of a sudden, an explosion happened which was uncaused from nothing...Then the rate of expansion from this uncaused explosion was so precise, that if it was slightly faster or slower, the universe would have collapsed, but lucky that it was exactly what was needed for the universe to remain....
Then some planets were formed...Then one day, a lightning hit a pond, and some life started from this...these cells developed that became fish, then these fish for some reason werent content in staying in the water, they wanted to go on land and check things out, so they decided to get some lungs....these animals eventually because ape like ancestors....
Then one day, these ape like ancestors had an itch to go for a walk and evenually became human beings when the returned back...
you guys who say people are dumb if they believe in God are cracking me up. Why are you guys still arguing a question that cannot and willnot ever be answered by another human. That in itself sort of makes you guys dumb.
If you guys who dont believe in God actually can look around and believe your body and everything around you evolved{which by the way is just another man created word and idea} then thats your choice but it certainly doesnt make you smarter then a person who believes in God which his choice.
To RJ, just because people over in sweden dont believe in god, that doesnt mean thats the reason for all the things that happen over there. Kind of foolish to believe that.
You didn't understand what I wrote. I am pointing out the false argument from religious people that societies/countries where religion doesn't play any role in public life are like Sodom and Gommorah. They're not and Sweden/Denmark are great examples: Life expectancy, child welfare, literacy, schooling, economic equality, standard of living, happiness, low crime, competitiveness etc., Denmark and Sweden stand in the first tier. See? Just saying non-believers are just as moral/good (maybe more) than people who preach from a book based on traditions thousands of years' old - At least to me they are.
Basically I don't care about all the "gods" of this world. I have no interest in disproving "god's" existence just as I have no interest in disproving Santa Claus. However I will fight religious people who try to impose their delusional fantasies on me.
Here most people would rather run naked down the street than use the word "god" in public (unless your mentally ill). Everyone should have the right to self-delusion, just keep it to yourself.
Oh, and now I will be going for a walk in the rain - I DARE your "god" to strike me with lightning. Go ahead, let's see how almighty "he" is - you guys might even pray for it...go ahead.
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Quote Originally Posted by cd329:
you guys who say people are dumb if they believe in God are cracking me up. Why are you guys still arguing a question that cannot and willnot ever be answered by another human. That in itself sort of makes you guys dumb.
If you guys who dont believe in God actually can look around and believe your body and everything around you evolved{which by the way is just another man created word and idea} then thats your choice but it certainly doesnt make you smarter then a person who believes in God which his choice.
To RJ, just because people over in sweden dont believe in god, that doesnt mean thats the reason for all the things that happen over there. Kind of foolish to believe that.
You didn't understand what I wrote. I am pointing out the false argument from religious people that societies/countries where religion doesn't play any role in public life are like Sodom and Gommorah. They're not and Sweden/Denmark are great examples: Life expectancy, child welfare, literacy, schooling, economic equality, standard of living, happiness, low crime, competitiveness etc., Denmark and Sweden stand in the first tier. See? Just saying non-believers are just as moral/good (maybe more) than people who preach from a book based on traditions thousands of years' old - At least to me they are.
Basically I don't care about all the "gods" of this world. I have no interest in disproving "god's" existence just as I have no interest in disproving Santa Claus. However I will fight religious people who try to impose their delusional fantasies on me.
Here most people would rather run naked down the street than use the word "god" in public (unless your mentally ill). Everyone should have the right to self-delusion, just keep it to yourself.
Oh, and now I will be going for a walk in the rain - I DARE your "god" to strike me with lightning. Go ahead, let's see how almighty "he" is - you guys might even pray for it...go ahead.
you guys who say people are dumb if they believe in God are cracking me up. Why are you guys still arguing a question that cannot and willnot ever be answered by another human. That in itself sort of makes you guys dumb.
If you guys who dont believe in God actually can look around and believe your body and everything around you evolved{which by the way is just another man created word and idea} then thats your choice but it certainly doesnt make you smarter then a person who believes in God which his choice.
To RJ, just because people over in sweden dont believe in god, that doesnt mean thats the reason for all the things that happen over there. Kind of foolish to believe that.
no matter what any scientist discovers like in this case with this thread, that doesnt mean they have proved God doesnt exist, because there is no way for them to prove God didnt create everything they discover. All the steven hawkings in the world put togther cant answer the question
live your life beliving there is a God or live your life not believing there is a God, just dont live your life trying to figure out if your belief is true, you wont get the answer
i don't think any of us are out to call people on the othr side dumb. however, we have an intellectual right to properly characterize poor logic or the complete ignorance of logic. also, we may feel compelled to question noah's ark-level beliefs.
for my purposes, if you say there is a god that none of us can see that created everything, there's not much i can or want to say to refute that. my response, just as anyone who is intellectually honest, is something along the lines of- how the fuck would i know.
however, when someone interjects their religion into the conversation or tries to affect other people and use their religion or god to do so, i may have some questions. and when i see stories about priests and other sandusky born agains doing bad shit, i may have some comments.
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Quote Originally Posted by cd329:
you guys who say people are dumb if they believe in God are cracking me up. Why are you guys still arguing a question that cannot and willnot ever be answered by another human. That in itself sort of makes you guys dumb.
If you guys who dont believe in God actually can look around and believe your body and everything around you evolved{which by the way is just another man created word and idea} then thats your choice but it certainly doesnt make you smarter then a person who believes in God which his choice.
To RJ, just because people over in sweden dont believe in god, that doesnt mean thats the reason for all the things that happen over there. Kind of foolish to believe that.
no matter what any scientist discovers like in this case with this thread, that doesnt mean they have proved God doesnt exist, because there is no way for them to prove God didnt create everything they discover. All the steven hawkings in the world put togther cant answer the question
live your life beliving there is a God or live your life not believing there is a God, just dont live your life trying to figure out if your belief is true, you wont get the answer
i don't think any of us are out to call people on the othr side dumb. however, we have an intellectual right to properly characterize poor logic or the complete ignorance of logic. also, we may feel compelled to question noah's ark-level beliefs.
for my purposes, if you say there is a god that none of us can see that created everything, there's not much i can or want to say to refute that. my response, just as anyone who is intellectually honest, is something along the lines of- how the fuck would i know.
however, when someone interjects their religion into the conversation or tries to affect other people and use their religion or god to do so, i may have some questions. and when i see stories about priests and other sandusky born agains doing bad shit, i may have some comments.
To all the posters backing me up, thank you. To all the religious posters...I don't think anyones calling you guys dumb or silly for believing. My point is that all religions are man made, every single one of them. Christianity has just as much validity as Scientology. Do you really want to lump yourself in with people who believe in made up stuff??
Yes, I understand that not everyone gets religion drilled into their heads early on, but that's the way it is for MOST people. Sure, there are some people who turn to religion later in life for various reasons. But again, they're turning to something that they've heard of or are aware of. They're still choosing to believe in something that was originally man made. So whether they decide to believe in Allah or Jesus it's all the same....total nonsense.
These major religions have only been in existence for a fraction of time that humans have been on this planet. Keep going back thru time and you see all the other religions that have come and gone. They've all died out and given way to new creations. How can you not see that it's all an attempt by early man to explain things that they didn't understand?
And yes, I do believe at their hearts human beings are wild, impulsive monsters capable of ruthless atrocities if given the chance. We're evolved animals, that's it. If I'm wrong, explain all wars, the Holocaust, slavery, poverty...human nature at it's finest. Religion DOES give us a basic code to live by, and it was created by people in an attempt to differentiate ourselves from animals. But do you really need to have a god? Can't you just agree that not killing your neighbor and stealing his shit is a good way to live? At least science attempts to explain things, all religion does is tell you you have to have faith....that's the best explanation they can come up with. No thanks.
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To all the posters backing me up, thank you. To all the religious posters...I don't think anyones calling you guys dumb or silly for believing. My point is that all religions are man made, every single one of them. Christianity has just as much validity as Scientology. Do you really want to lump yourself in with people who believe in made up stuff??
Yes, I understand that not everyone gets religion drilled into their heads early on, but that's the way it is for MOST people. Sure, there are some people who turn to religion later in life for various reasons. But again, they're turning to something that they've heard of or are aware of. They're still choosing to believe in something that was originally man made. So whether they decide to believe in Allah or Jesus it's all the same....total nonsense.
These major religions have only been in existence for a fraction of time that humans have been on this planet. Keep going back thru time and you see all the other religions that have come and gone. They've all died out and given way to new creations. How can you not see that it's all an attempt by early man to explain things that they didn't understand?
And yes, I do believe at their hearts human beings are wild, impulsive monsters capable of ruthless atrocities if given the chance. We're evolved animals, that's it. If I'm wrong, explain all wars, the Holocaust, slavery, poverty...human nature at it's finest. Religion DOES give us a basic code to live by, and it was created by people in an attempt to differentiate ourselves from animals. But do you really need to have a god? Can't you just agree that not killing your neighbor and stealing his shit is a good way to live? At least science attempts to explain things, all religion does is tell you you have to have faith....that's the best explanation they can come up with. No thanks.
Ok, here is something for you gentleman to have a think about....
Skeptics such as yourselves have been around since humanity began.
Meaning, skeptics were around the time of Jesus and obviously after.
Here is the question. Why arent their any counter claims / writings at the time of Jesus or just after when the Gospels were being written?
Think of this. At the time of Jesus and just after when the gospels were written, we saw a transformation of scoeity based on these gospels. That is, the construction and establishment of Churches, persecution of Gospel followers, people devoting their lives to the gospel, ie, Priests , bishops etc etc....
So, if you are a skeptic at that time, society is changing. As a skeptic, wouldnt you go and INVESTIGATE the claims being made in the gospels?
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion, therefore, many if not all of the people mentioned in the gospels, WERE STILL around, or most definitly there children....
THis is made much more easier as it was a small country town where the majority of people knew each other, , ie, not like NYC people know only a small percentage of each other...
Here is an example. We know about the story of Elizabeth and her husband Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead. If you are a skeptic, read this, and people started to change their lives based on this....wouldnt you as a skeptic go to Elizabeth or at least her children and ask if it really happened? Or what about the claim that Jesus fed 5000 people with fish and bread?
These are claims that around the time of the gospels were written would be well known facts TO EVERYONE.......yet if not true,
WHY WASNT THEIR ANYONE, ESPECIALLY skeptics investigating these many claims and documented these?
You expect "skeptics" in the year 100 to be reading the Gospels? Where would they get a copy to read? DId they have bookstores back then?
Very early Christianity was very secretive, because you would be tortured and put to death if you were found out to be a Christian, or would lose your ROman Citizenship if you had it. The Romans were feeding Christians to the wild beasts in the Coloseum.
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Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:
Ok, here is something for you gentleman to have a think about....
Skeptics such as yourselves have been around since humanity began.
Meaning, skeptics were around the time of Jesus and obviously after.
Here is the question. Why arent their any counter claims / writings at the time of Jesus or just after when the Gospels were being written?
Think of this. At the time of Jesus and just after when the gospels were written, we saw a transformation of scoeity based on these gospels. That is, the construction and establishment of Churches, persecution of Gospel followers, people devoting their lives to the gospel, ie, Priests , bishops etc etc....
So, if you are a skeptic at that time, society is changing. As a skeptic, wouldnt you go and INVESTIGATE the claims being made in the gospels?
The first gospels were written approx 50 years after the crucifixion, therefore, many if not all of the people mentioned in the gospels, WERE STILL around, or most definitly there children....
THis is made much more easier as it was a small country town where the majority of people knew each other, , ie, not like NYC people know only a small percentage of each other...
Here is an example. We know about the story of Elizabeth and her husband Lazarus who Jesus raised from the dead. If you are a skeptic, read this, and people started to change their lives based on this....wouldnt you as a skeptic go to Elizabeth or at least her children and ask if it really happened? Or what about the claim that Jesus fed 5000 people with fish and bread?
These are claims that around the time of the gospels were written would be well known facts TO EVERYONE.......yet if not true,
WHY WASNT THEIR ANYONE, ESPECIALLY skeptics investigating these many claims and documented these?
You expect "skeptics" in the year 100 to be reading the Gospels? Where would they get a copy to read? DId they have bookstores back then?
Very early Christianity was very secretive, because you would be tortured and put to death if you were found out to be a Christian, or would lose your ROman Citizenship if you had it. The Romans were feeding Christians to the wild beasts in the Coloseum.
Another thing...how do you religious people KNOW that you've got the right religion? Even you people who claim to have turned to it later in life and believe it with every fiber of your being? How do you know the ancient cavemen didn't have it right? How can you say that their animal gods and planet gods are wrong?
It seems like such a human ego thing to say "hmmm, this religion really suits me best, so I'll choose to believe in THIS one, as opposed to that one." Really? Like going to a store or something and trying on religions to see which one fits best lol. For those who believe in Jesus have you explored every single other faith out there, or do you just dismiss all that and KNOW that your Jesus is the real deal, and allllllllllllll the other countless religions and gods that have existed thru history are just wrong?
At least with science there is a general uniformity that we can all agree on. We all know that if you throw a rock into the air it will come back down due to gravity. Science can't explain everything....yet....but I'll still take science over an invisible man that nobody has ever seen. I'll even buy the theory that the universe sprung into existence from nothing, over the theory that there is a creator out there somewhere, playing fucking mind games with us...
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Another thing...how do you religious people KNOW that you've got the right religion? Even you people who claim to have turned to it later in life and believe it with every fiber of your being? How do you know the ancient cavemen didn't have it right? How can you say that their animal gods and planet gods are wrong?
It seems like such a human ego thing to say "hmmm, this religion really suits me best, so I'll choose to believe in THIS one, as opposed to that one." Really? Like going to a store or something and trying on religions to see which one fits best lol. For those who believe in Jesus have you explored every single other faith out there, or do you just dismiss all that and KNOW that your Jesus is the real deal, and allllllllllllll the other countless religions and gods that have existed thru history are just wrong?
At least with science there is a general uniformity that we can all agree on. We all know that if you throw a rock into the air it will come back down due to gravity. Science can't explain everything....yet....but I'll still take science over an invisible man that nobody has ever seen. I'll even buy the theory that the universe sprung into existence from nothing, over the theory that there is a creator out there somewhere, playing fucking mind games with us...
Gotta disagree with you on this one. No matter what any man discovers or comes up, there is no way anybody can prove there is a God, nor can they prove there isnt a God.
Its simply impossible for any human to have the answer, because the questioned just cant be answered
My own personal belief that there has to be a God and thats just because when i look around and see the things, like the human body as just 1 example, way to complicated of a thing to have just basically evolved from some single atom. Dont buy it.
Alligators have been on the planet longer then man has, why dont we have walking and talking ones?
LOL this is why I can't take religious people seriously...
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Quote Originally Posted by cd329:
Gotta disagree with you on this one. No matter what any man discovers or comes up, there is no way anybody can prove there is a God, nor can they prove there isnt a God.
Its simply impossible for any human to have the answer, because the questioned just cant be answered
My own personal belief that there has to be a God and thats just because when i look around and see the things, like the human body as just 1 example, way to complicated of a thing to have just basically evolved from some single atom. Dont buy it.
Alligators have been on the planet longer then man has, why dont we have walking and talking ones?
LOL this is why I can't take religious people seriously...
Why should I believe in a god that will send my soul to eternal damnation just cuz I don't believe? Really? This kind, loving, almighty being is going to do me like that? Fuck that.
Instead, I'll just create my own religion. All the basic life-codes are there...don't kill, don't steal, etc...except MY god is cool. He doesn't give a fuck if you believe or not. EVERYONE goes to heaven and gets to fuck their own personal Mila Kunis. Even if you've done bad things in life.
So, that's my god...you can't prove he doesn't exist, just as you claim I can't prove YOUR god doesn't exist. Lord give me strength...
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Some more thoughts:
Why should I believe in a god that will send my soul to eternal damnation just cuz I don't believe? Really? This kind, loving, almighty being is going to do me like that? Fuck that.
Instead, I'll just create my own religion. All the basic life-codes are there...don't kill, don't steal, etc...except MY god is cool. He doesn't give a fuck if you believe or not. EVERYONE goes to heaven and gets to fuck their own personal Mila Kunis. Even if you've done bad things in life.
So, that's my god...you can't prove he doesn't exist, just as you claim I can't prove YOUR god doesn't exist. Lord give me strength...
Why should I believe in a god that will send my soul to eternal damnation just cuz I don't believe? Really? This kind, loving, almighty being is going to do me like that? Fuck that.
Instead, I'll just create my own religion. All the basic life-codes are there...don't kill, don't steal, etc...except MY god is cool. He doesn't give a fuck if you believe or not. EVERYONE goes to heaven and gets to fuck their own personal Mila Kunis. Even if you've done bad things in life.
So, that's my god...you can't prove he doesn't exist, just as you claim I can't prove YOUR god doesn't exist. Lord give me strength...
agentcooper, you're thinking too much and using too much logic...you have to just believe
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Quote Originally Posted by AgentCooper:
Some more thoughts:
Why should I believe in a god that will send my soul to eternal damnation just cuz I don't believe? Really? This kind, loving, almighty being is going to do me like that? Fuck that.
Instead, I'll just create my own religion. All the basic life-codes are there...don't kill, don't steal, etc...except MY god is cool. He doesn't give a fuck if you believe or not. EVERYONE goes to heaven and gets to fuck their own personal Mila Kunis. Even if you've done bad things in life.
So, that's my god...you can't prove he doesn't exist, just as you claim I can't prove YOUR god doesn't exist. Lord give me strength...
agentcooper, you're thinking too much and using too much logic...you have to just believe
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