January Stock Talk Part III
Gunners, I thought CROX was overvalued for a long time, I was wrong for a long time..I agree with you on DECK..time horizon is the issue though.
Want another bloated pig? CMG. I dont care if their food is great and growth is good. It WILL slow, they have process issues (an ex-Covers member and I go the rounds via email about this) and at a 60 PE I think it is probably 40 pts overvalued..the issue is WHEN not IF.
Gunners, I thought CROX was overvalued for a long time, I was wrong for a long time..I agree with you on DECK..time horizon is the issue though.
Want another bloated pig? CMG. I dont care if their food is great and growth is good. It WILL slow, they have process issues (an ex-Covers member and I go the rounds via email about this) and at a 60 PE I think it is probably 40 pts overvalued..the issue is WHEN not IF.
I was morbidly interested in "if you had to buy a homebuilder stock, whcih would it be?" question elsewhere...after a lot of readinf responses etc etc...I only came up with RYL.
Of course, the nice thing is, I DON'T have to buy anything at all right now, and hell I could not if I wanted to at the moment.After watching serious deterioration, and expecting more, I am only watching and hoping for minimal damage.
I do think the Fed had better cut at least 50, because if they do not, you are going to see a real trainwreck.But we are used to that.
I was morbidly interested in "if you had to buy a homebuilder stock, whcih would it be?" question elsewhere...after a lot of readinf responses etc etc...I only came up with RYL.
Of course, the nice thing is, I DON'T have to buy anything at all right now, and hell I could not if I wanted to at the moment.After watching serious deterioration, and expecting more, I am only watching and hoping for minimal damage.
I do think the Fed had better cut at least 50, because if they do not, you are going to see a real trainwreck.But we are used to that.
If I HAD to buy a homebuilder, say if a relative gave me 50k to be used only for that, it would be TOL with no doubt in my mind. This is why.
RYL looks like this-
1B market cap
3.5B revenues (of course that will keep dropping as for all builders)
81M cash
983M debt
Operating margin 8.65%
TOL looks like this-
2.57B market cap
4.65B revenues
900M cash
2.27B debt
Operating margin 15.64%
To me what sticks out like a blazing red sign is the cash and debt. RYL with 81M in cash and 11X the debt is in MUCH more serious jepoardy of struggling and maybe going under than TOL is. Plus those margins are seriously better for TOL.
Another biggie is compare 5 yr charts on the stocks-
CHART
TOL is the choice without a doubt in my mind.
Looking at even MORE builders, say CTX, LEN, DHI etc..TOL has a DRAMATICALLY better cash position than ANY I found.
If I were gambling I would go with BZH or HOV or SPF
Builder Index
If I HAD to buy a homebuilder, say if a relative gave me 50k to be used only for that, it would be TOL with no doubt in my mind. This is why.
RYL looks like this-
1B market cap
3.5B revenues (of course that will keep dropping as for all builders)
81M cash
983M debt
Operating margin 8.65%
TOL looks like this-
2.57B market cap
4.65B revenues
900M cash
2.27B debt
Operating margin 15.64%
To me what sticks out like a blazing red sign is the cash and debt. RYL with 81M in cash and 11X the debt is in MUCH more serious jepoardy of struggling and maybe going under than TOL is. Plus those margins are seriously better for TOL.
Another biggie is compare 5 yr charts on the stocks-
CHART
TOL is the choice without a doubt in my mind.
Looking at even MORE builders, say CTX, LEN, DHI etc..TOL has a DRAMATICALLY better cash position than ANY I found.
If I were gambling I would go with BZH or HOV or SPF
Builder Index
Good stuff Wall....I like TOL as well, if I can use the word like regarding that sector.I don't like any of them, in reality....
From Larry Summers, plumping for fiscal policies...not sure it is doable in DC however:
There is now a compelling case for the president and Congress to create a programme of fiscal stimulus to the US economy that could be signed into law in the next several months.
Given the market’s prediction of Fed policy actions, the debate now is not about whether or not to provide macroeconomic stimulus. That question appears to be settled. The question is whether it is better for all the stimulus to come from discretionary monetary policy or for some of the stimulus to come from discretionary fiscal policy. A diversified policy approach seems clearly preferable in that (i) in a world where judging the impact of policy measures is difficult, the outcome is less uncertain with a diversified mix of stimulus measures; (ii) the proximate impact of fiscal policies is felt by the families bearing the brunt of recession, in contrast to monetary policies whose immediate impact is on financial institutions; (iii) use of fiscal policy reduces the amount by which interest rates have to be reduced, thereby reducing downward pressure on the dollar, which in turn contributes to upward pressure on US inflation and international instability; (iv) partial reliance on fiscal policy mitigates the various risks of bubble creation associated with excessively low interest rates.
Good stuff Wall....I like TOL as well, if I can use the word like regarding that sector.I don't like any of them, in reality....
From Larry Summers, plumping for fiscal policies...not sure it is doable in DC however:
There is now a compelling case for the president and Congress to create a programme of fiscal stimulus to the US economy that could be signed into law in the next several months.
Given the market’s prediction of Fed policy actions, the debate now is not about whether or not to provide macroeconomic stimulus. That question appears to be settled. The question is whether it is better for all the stimulus to come from discretionary monetary policy or for some of the stimulus to come from discretionary fiscal policy. A diversified policy approach seems clearly preferable in that (i) in a world where judging the impact of policy measures is difficult, the outcome is less uncertain with a diversified mix of stimulus measures; (ii) the proximate impact of fiscal policies is felt by the families bearing the brunt of recession, in contrast to monetary policies whose immediate impact is on financial institutions; (iii) use of fiscal policy reduces the amount by which interest rates have to be reduced, thereby reducing downward pressure on the dollar, which in turn contributes to upward pressure on US inflation and international instability; (iv) partial reliance on fiscal policy mitigates the various risks of bubble creation associated with excessively low interest rates.
Years and years of meddling and phony currency floating has created this mess..if the FED and Greenspam would have done what they did to get Bush re-elected and prolong our economic expansion cycle, we wouldnt be sitting in this situation.
I dont mind SOME assistance, to soften the blow, but we need to have a contraction cycle, it is natural and normal..plus we cannot keep up this currency float and loose credit environment. The more the FED meddles and the government meddles with our free market economy, the worse and longer it will be until the cycle completes itself.
Years and years of meddling and phony currency floating has created this mess..if the FED and Greenspam would have done what they did to get Bush re-elected and prolong our economic expansion cycle, we wouldnt be sitting in this situation.
I dont mind SOME assistance, to soften the blow, but we need to have a contraction cycle, it is natural and normal..plus we cannot keep up this currency float and loose credit environment. The more the FED meddles and the government meddles with our free market economy, the worse and longer it will be until the cycle completes itself.
I guess the qquestion is really: is a recession better than inflation? Is the recession going to be extremely deep due to previous manipulations? And lastly, in an election year, can any administration sit back and watch a recession unfold (realistically, I think it impossible politically).
The other question is what is in it for Democrats to aid a Republican administration patching up a damaged economy...
I guess the qquestion is really: is a recession better than inflation? Is the recession going to be extremely deep due to previous manipulations? And lastly, in an election year, can any administration sit back and watch a recession unfold (realistically, I think it impossible politically).
The other question is what is in it for Democrats to aid a Republican administration patching up a damaged economy...
Almost the rest of Summers' argument:
Fiscal stimulus is appropriate as insurance because it is the fastest and most reliable way of encouraging short run economic growth at a time when a serious recession downturn would pressure American families, exacerbate financial strains, raise protectionist pressures and hurt the global economy.
Poorly provided fiscal stimulus can have worse side effects than the disease that is to be cured. This suggests close attention to three issues:
First, to be effective, fiscal stimulus must be timely. To be worth undertaking, it must be legislated by the middle of the year and be based on changes in taxes and benefits that can be implemented almost immediately.
Second, fiscal stimulus only works if it is spent so it must be targeted . Targeting should favour those with low incomes and those whose incomes have recently fallen for whom spending is most urgent.
Third, fiscal stimulus, to be maximally effective, must be clearly and credibly temporary – with no significant adverse impact on the deficit for more than a year or so after implementation. Otherwise it risks being counterproductive by raising the spectre of enlarged future deficits pushing up longer-term interest rates and undermining confidence and longer-term growth prospects.
Almost the rest of Summers' argument:
Fiscal stimulus is appropriate as insurance because it is the fastest and most reliable way of encouraging short run economic growth at a time when a serious recession downturn would pressure American families, exacerbate financial strains, raise protectionist pressures and hurt the global economy.
Poorly provided fiscal stimulus can have worse side effects than the disease that is to be cured. This suggests close attention to three issues:
First, to be effective, fiscal stimulus must be timely. To be worth undertaking, it must be legislated by the middle of the year and be based on changes in taxes and benefits that can be implemented almost immediately.
Second, fiscal stimulus only works if it is spent so it must be targeted . Targeting should favour those with low incomes and those whose incomes have recently fallen for whom spending is most urgent.
Third, fiscal stimulus, to be maximally effective, must be clearly and credibly temporary – with no significant adverse impact on the deficit for more than a year or so after implementation. Otherwise it risks being counterproductive by raising the spectre of enlarged future deficits pushing up longer-term interest rates and undermining confidence and longer-term growth prospects.
The cycle has been altered by YEARS if you ask me, and it should not have happened.
About the technical indicators, I dont weigh my investing decisions, especially LONG term investments based on technicals.
I would feel completely comfortable owning TOL even if the housing group were to stagnate for 2 yrs..TOL isnt going under, they have plenty of cash to handle whatever happens in the group.
The cycle has been altered by YEARS if you ask me, and it should not have happened.
About the technical indicators, I dont weigh my investing decisions, especially LONG term investments based on technicals.
I would feel completely comfortable owning TOL even if the housing group were to stagnate for 2 yrs..TOL isnt going under, they have plenty of cash to handle whatever happens in the group.
One could make a case that decades of meddling have occurred...
On another subject, not to politicize, I wonder i these stats are true.I think they are, but I do not know definitively:
The Democratic candidates agree that the Bush tax cuts needs to be repealed. So, in 2010 we face the largest tax increase in history if that is to be the case. Want to double the dividend and capital gain taxes? Vote for Hillary or Obama. Watch your stocks tank.
They want to "tax the rich" and make more for middle class tax cuts. Sounds nice, but let's look at the facts. The bottom half of taxpayers only pay 3% of the total income taxes collected, which is 1% less than before the Bush tax cuts. 44% of the US population, or 122 million people, pays no income tax at all.
The richest 1% of the country pay 39% of all taxes ($365,000 income and up), which is 3% more than before the Bush tax cuts, under the Clinton tax policy. The top 5% ($145,000) pay 60% of all taxes (up 5% from 1999); and the top 25%, with income over $62,000, pays paid 86% of all taxes. It seems to me that the rich are paying their fair share. Every category is paying more now than under Clinton, except the bottom 75%.
One could make a case that decades of meddling have occurred...
On another subject, not to politicize, I wonder i these stats are true.I think they are, but I do not know definitively:
The Democratic candidates agree that the Bush tax cuts needs to be repealed. So, in 2010 we face the largest tax increase in history if that is to be the case. Want to double the dividend and capital gain taxes? Vote for Hillary or Obama. Watch your stocks tank.
They want to "tax the rich" and make more for middle class tax cuts. Sounds nice, but let's look at the facts. The bottom half of taxpayers only pay 3% of the total income taxes collected, which is 1% less than before the Bush tax cuts. 44% of the US population, or 122 million people, pays no income tax at all.
The richest 1% of the country pay 39% of all taxes ($365,000 income and up), which is 3% more than before the Bush tax cuts, under the Clinton tax policy. The top 5% ($145,000) pay 60% of all taxes (up 5% from 1999); and the top 25%, with income over $62,000, pays paid 86% of all taxes. It seems to me that the rich are paying their fair share. Every category is paying more now than under Clinton, except the bottom 75%.
On a more immediate, practical note:is there a rule ofthumb regarding stop losses? I think i am always simply guessing at where to place them when it comes to a given stock....in this market, it is tough to get panicked, but as easy to get stopped out. I never have completely made up my mind on such matters.
On a more immediate, practical note:is there a rule ofthumb regarding stop losses? I think i am always simply guessing at where to place them when it comes to a given stock....in this market, it is tough to get panicked, but as easy to get stopped out. I never have completely made up my mind on such matters.
I dont think a repeal of the div break would mean much to the market at all.
Want to see the market get nailed even more than a recession? Let the US greenback return to traditional historic levels against the Euro and other currencies. Then you have foreign investors go elsewhere with their money and sell our stocks..that would CRATER the markets..
The market has done fine under dems and poorly under repubs, I dont think that rule really has much merit..and if the dems get elected it wont mean much to the markets longer term.
Stop-losses..some people use a percentage of the purchase (10% 15% whatever) as a measure of stop loss, others use technical support levels..so the 50/200 whatever moving average.
It depends and is completely subjective..
I dont think a repeal of the div break would mean much to the market at all.
Want to see the market get nailed even more than a recession? Let the US greenback return to traditional historic levels against the Euro and other currencies. Then you have foreign investors go elsewhere with their money and sell our stocks..that would CRATER the markets..
The market has done fine under dems and poorly under repubs, I dont think that rule really has much merit..and if the dems get elected it wont mean much to the markets longer term.
Stop-losses..some people use a percentage of the purchase (10% 15% whatever) as a measure of stop loss, others use technical support levels..so the 50/200 whatever moving average.
It depends and is completely subjective..
I think your last line is what gets me about it. I am always dithering back and forth over it....I suppose I will continue to do so, stock by stock.
Is it really possible that 122 million people do not pay any tax???
As for Repubs/Dems, I think it depends on teh person in the office. Clinton was a Republican in all but name economically, especially regarding trade.
LBJ on the other hand, did a great deal of damage with guns and butter imbecilities.His governance of the economy as well as the war will always taint his name.Corrupt, corrupt bastard that he was anyway.
I think your last line is what gets me about it. I am always dithering back and forth over it....I suppose I will continue to do so, stock by stock.
Is it really possible that 122 million people do not pay any tax???
As for Repubs/Dems, I think it depends on teh person in the office. Clinton was a Republican in all but name economically, especially regarding trade.
LBJ on the other hand, did a great deal of damage with guns and butter imbecilities.His governance of the economy as well as the war will always taint his name.Corrupt, corrupt bastard that he was anyway.
Using hard moving averages or round numbers will get you nailed by market makers.
Big firms have tools that can show stop orders on the screen and they know how to scoop down and pull those orders out..or on the upside how to trigger buy stops.
My preference is to use moving averages and go a HAIR under them for safety..not right on any specific moving average and not on any round numbers.
Using hard moving averages or round numbers will get you nailed by market makers.
Big firms have tools that can show stop orders on the screen and they know how to scoop down and pull those orders out..or on the upside how to trigger buy stops.
My preference is to use moving averages and go a HAIR under them for safety..not right on any specific moving average and not on any round numbers.
Thanks guys.
Thanks guys.
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (Telegraph): Bush convenes Plunge Protection Team
“Bears beware. The New Deal of 2008 is in the works. The US Treasury is
about to shower households with rebate cheques to head off a full-blown
slump, and save the Bush presidency. On Friday, Mr Bush convened the
so-called Plunge Protection Team for its first known meeting in the
Oval Office. The black arts unit – officially the President’s Working
Group on Financial Markets – was created after the 1987 crash.
“It appears to have powers to support the markets in a crisis with a host of instruments, mostly by through buying futures contracts on the stock indexes and key credit levers. And it has the means to fry ‘short’ traders in the hottest of oils.
“The team is led by Treasury chief Hank Paulson, ex-Goldman Sachs, a man with a nose for market psychology, and includes Fed chairman Ben Bernanke and the key exchange regulators.
“Judging by a well-briefed report in the Washington Post, a mood of deep alarm has taken hold in the upper echelons of the administration. ‘What everyone’s looking at is what is the fastest way to get money out there,’ said a Bush aide. Emergency measures are now clearly on the agenda, apparently consisting of a mix of tax cuts for businesses and bungs for consumers.
“‘In terms of any stimulus package, we’re considering all options,’ said Mr Bush. This should be interesting to watch. The president is not one for half measures. He has already shown in Iraq and on biofuels that he will pursue policies a l’outrance once he gets the bit between his teeth.”
Source: Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, Telegraph, January 8, 2008.
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (Telegraph): Bush convenes Plunge Protection Team
“Bears beware. The New Deal of 2008 is in the works. The US Treasury is
about to shower households with rebate cheques to head off a full-blown
slump, and save the Bush presidency. On Friday, Mr Bush convened the
so-called Plunge Protection Team for its first known meeting in the
Oval Office. The black arts unit – officially the President’s Working
Group on Financial Markets – was created after the 1987 crash.
“It appears to have powers to support the markets in a crisis with a host of instruments, mostly by through buying futures contracts on the stock indexes and key credit levers. And it has the means to fry ‘short’ traders in the hottest of oils.
“The team is led by Treasury chief Hank Paulson, ex-Goldman Sachs, a man with a nose for market psychology, and includes Fed chairman Ben Bernanke and the key exchange regulators.
“Judging by a well-briefed report in the Washington Post, a mood of deep alarm has taken hold in the upper echelons of the administration. ‘What everyone’s looking at is what is the fastest way to get money out there,’ said a Bush aide. Emergency measures are now clearly on the agenda, apparently consisting of a mix of tax cuts for businesses and bungs for consumers.
“‘In terms of any stimulus package, we’re considering all options,’ said Mr Bush. This should be interesting to watch. The president is not one for half measures. He has already shown in Iraq and on biofuels that he will pursue policies a l’outrance once he gets the bit between his teeth.”
Source: Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, Telegraph, January 8, 2008.
But some economists fear that lower rates will simply provide a short-lived boost at the expense of the economy’s longer-term health: Cheap money encourages foolish investments, they say, which is precisely how Americans came to experience the evaporation of wealth in the Internet era, followed by housing prices rising beyond any reasonable connection to incomes.
“This appears to be a panic on the part of the Fed,” said Michael T. Darda, chief economist at MKM Partners, a research and trading firm. “The housing bubble was a reaction from the effort to protect us from the collapse of the tech bubble. What’s the next bubble going to be as a consequence of trying to protect us against this?”
Mr. Darda asserts that the economy would be fine if left to its own devices, maintaining that the job market is healthier than most economists think. He contends that the December jobs report is likely to be revised to show that far more jobs were created than the 18,000 reported by the Labor Department.
“That could be important in terms of reversing the direction,” Mr. Darda said. “We need to see evidence that the labor market isn’t falling apart. That’s critical.”
But most economists seem convinced that the economy has slowed significantly, and say it is the severity of a downturn that is in doubt, not the existence of one.
“If we have a recession with a modest consumer retrenchment, and the rest of the world holds up, this could be three quarters of disappointment,” said Robert Barbera, the chief economist of ITG. “The risk is a more dramatic decline for the consumer.”
There is little doubt that the Fed will lower its benchmark rate later this month, making it cheaper for banks to lend money to one another. But there is more doubt whether Washington can quickly agree on fiscal policy moves — that is, raising spending or cutting taxes — in an election year in which the White House and Congress are controlled by different parties.
A recession could pack enormous political consequences. Over the last century, the economy has been in a recession four times in the early part of a presidential election year, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. In each of those years — 1920, 1932, 1960 and 1980 — the party of the incumbent president lost the election.
But some economists fear that lower rates will simply provide a short-lived boost at the expense of the economy’s longer-term health: Cheap money encourages foolish investments, they say, which is precisely how Americans came to experience the evaporation of wealth in the Internet era, followed by housing prices rising beyond any reasonable connection to incomes.
“This appears to be a panic on the part of the Fed,” said Michael T. Darda, chief economist at MKM Partners, a research and trading firm. “The housing bubble was a reaction from the effort to protect us from the collapse of the tech bubble. What’s the next bubble going to be as a consequence of trying to protect us against this?”
Mr. Darda asserts that the economy would be fine if left to its own devices, maintaining that the job market is healthier than most economists think. He contends that the December jobs report is likely to be revised to show that far more jobs were created than the 18,000 reported by the Labor Department.
“That could be important in terms of reversing the direction,” Mr. Darda said. “We need to see evidence that the labor market isn’t falling apart. That’s critical.”
But most economists seem convinced that the economy has slowed significantly, and say it is the severity of a downturn that is in doubt, not the existence of one.
“If we have a recession with a modest consumer retrenchment, and the rest of the world holds up, this could be three quarters of disappointment,” said Robert Barbera, the chief economist of ITG. “The risk is a more dramatic decline for the consumer.”
There is little doubt that the Fed will lower its benchmark rate later this month, making it cheaper for banks to lend money to one another. But there is more doubt whether Washington can quickly agree on fiscal policy moves — that is, raising spending or cutting taxes — in an election year in which the White House and Congress are controlled by different parties.
A recession could pack enormous political consequences. Over the last century, the economy has been in a recession four times in the early part of a presidential election year, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research. In each of those years — 1920, 1932, 1960 and 1980 — the party of the incumbent president lost the election.
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