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    All Forums | Poker

    A couple of poker pros gone busto

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    JamesD816
    BIGfnPOO
    TRAIN69
    vanzack
    wizardofroz
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    JamesD816
    JamesD816
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    Posted: Jun. 5, 2013 - 2:04 PM ET #76

    I have read quite a bit on covers though I do not post much. The skill threshold argument by Vanzack is not accurate at all. Vanzack is obviously one of the most respected, if not the most respected poster on covers. To be blunt if his skill threshold argument was posted by 99.9% of the covers community he would have gotten tons more heat. There is no skill ceiling that once a player reaches it he is equal to others that have also reached the top. As a matter of fact the game evolves all the time. A guy who was a winner in early online poker in lets say 2003 was not nearly as good as a guy in 2008.  The guys that were tops in 2008 would get crushed by the guys in 2013. This applies to all stakes, from micros to high stakes. It also applies to live play. The players that continue to work on their game are the ones that continue to succeed year after year.

    Is there luck in Poker?  Of course there is and it is more of a factor in tournaments then cash. There is luck in all gambling.  How many NBA sports bettors would be RICH if every game they lost by 2 points or less they won.  Those NBA last second meaningless layups to cover the spread are also 100% luck. A great poker player needs to win far less coin tosses and get far less premium hands then an average player or a poor player to be successful. Just like a great handicapper can take a few more bad beats and still be profitable.

    I am VERY surprised so many people who bet sports and think sports is beatable think poker is luck.  In many ways it defies logic because you control so much more in poker then you do when betting into efficient markets and paying vig. 

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    I have read quite a bit on covers though I do not post much. The skill threshold argument by Vanzack is not accurate at all. Vanzack is obviously one of the most respected, if not the most respected poster on covers. To be blunt if his skill threshold argument was posted by 99.9% of the covers community he would have gotten tons more heat. There is no skill ceiling that once a player reaches it he is equal to others that have also reached the top. As a matter of fact the game evolves all the time. A guy who was a winner in early online poker in lets say 2003 was not nearly as good as a guy in 2008.  The guys that were tops in 2008 would get crushed by the guys in 2013. This applies to all stakes, from micros to high stakes. It also applies to live play. The players that continue to work on their game are the ones that continue to succeed year after year.

    Is there luck in Poker?  Of course there is and it is more of a factor in tournaments then cash. There is luck in all gambling.  How many NBA sports bettors would be RICH if every game they lost by 2 points or less they won.  Those NBA last second meaningless layups to cover the spread are also 100% luck. A great poker player needs to win far less coin tosses and get far less premium hands then an average player or a poor player to be successful. Just like a great handicapper can take a few more bad beats and still be profitable.

    I am VERY surprised so many people who bet sports and think sports is beatable think poker is luck.  In many ways it defies logic because you control so much more in poker then you do when betting into efficient markets and paying vig. 

     
    BIGfnPOO
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 5, 2013 - 5:59 PM ET #77

    after seeing more live poker  than perhaps 1,000,000's of  humans and a fair share of online, how can you say winning a poker hand or a poker session is skill.???  you cannot say over 10 ,20 yrs , we live for today tomorrow is not promised. I've seen players bankrolls demolished after a week of bad beats, real bad beats not suckouts. never to recover.  then u see donks, lets use mr gold.. a pure shmuck of shmucks   king of the shmucks   wins.  his skill is non existent,   LUCK got the $$$ as so often it does.   some of the best players are never able to play above 1-2  2-5    due to many factors,  NO luck has played a part in 
    bigFnPOO
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    after seeing more live poker  than perhaps 1,000,000's of  humans and a fair share of online, how can you say winning a poker hand or a poker session is skill.???  you cannot say over 10 ,20 yrs , we live for today tomorrow is not promised. I've seen players bankrolls demolished after a week of bad beats, real bad beats not suckouts. never to recover.  then u see donks, lets use mr gold.. a pure shmuck of shmucks   king of the shmucks   wins.  his skill is non existent,   LUCK got the $$$ as so often it does.   some of the best players are never able to play above 1-2  2-5    due to many factors,  NO luck has played a part in 
     
    JamesD816
    JamesD816
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    Posted: Jun. 5, 2013 - 6:45 PM ET #78

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGfnPOO:

    after seeing more live poker  than perhaps 1,000,000's of  humans and a fair share of online, how can you say winning a poker hand or a poker session is skill.???  you cannot say over 10 ,20 yrs , we live for today tomorrow is not promised. I've seen players bankrolls demolished after a week of bad beats, real bad beats not suckouts. never to recover.  then u see donks, lets use mr gold.. a pure shmuck of shmucks   king of the shmucks   wins.  his skill is non existent,   LUCK got the $$$ as so often it does.   some of the best players are never able to play above 1-2  2-5    due to many factors,  NO luck has played a part in 

    Poo,

      No one is talking about winning a single hand or a single session as a barometer of luck or skill. We are talking about long term results, long term skill is absolutely more important then luck.  

      Your example proves my point not yours. You use Mr. Gold as an example of luck. He played well AND got very lucky and won the main event. Anyone to win the main event has to have plenty of luck along with playing well. But I agree he is not a great player. He is an average player or maybe good player for low stakes who went on a sick sick run of luck and playing well for one week and won 12 million of which he got 7 million. Then he started playing higher stakes with really good and great players and the luck ran out........

    Now he is broke, has been for a long time. But now he is so broke that he is selling his WSOP main even bracelet. The sale is for July this year

    2006 World Series of Poker Championship Bracelet Won by Jamie | LotID #31001 | Heritage Auctions


    You say some of the BEST players are not able to play above 1-2 or 2-5 due to many factors. What factors are they?


    All gambling has sick runs of luck, good and bad. Sports poker, keno, horses, everything. Skill games and games of pure luck, there will be runs of luck good and bad. Its just simple statistics considering the millions of people playing.  Didn't some guy on this site pick 25 games in a row and win 100k a year or two ago?  The odds of that are over 3.3 million to one. But it happened. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGfnPOO:

    after seeing more live poker  than perhaps 1,000,000's of  humans and a fair share of online, how can you say winning a poker hand or a poker session is skill.???  you cannot say over 10 ,20 yrs , we live for today tomorrow is not promised. I've seen players bankrolls demolished after a week of bad beats, real bad beats not suckouts. never to recover.  then u see donks, lets use mr gold.. a pure shmuck of shmucks   king of the shmucks   wins.  his skill is non existent,   LUCK got the $$$ as so often it does.   some of the best players are never able to play above 1-2  2-5    due to many factors,  NO luck has played a part in 

    Poo,

      No one is talking about winning a single hand or a single session as a barometer of luck or skill. We are talking about long term results, long term skill is absolutely more important then luck.  

      Your example proves my point not yours. You use Mr. Gold as an example of luck. He played well AND got very lucky and won the main event. Anyone to win the main event has to have plenty of luck along with playing well. But I agree he is not a great player. He is an average player or maybe good player for low stakes who went on a sick sick run of luck and playing well for one week and won 12 million of which he got 7 million. Then he started playing higher stakes with really good and great players and the luck ran out........

    Now he is broke, has been for a long time. But now he is so broke that he is selling his WSOP main even bracelet. The sale is for July this year

    2006 World Series of Poker Championship Bracelet Won by Jamie | LotID #31001 | Heritage Auctions


    You say some of the BEST players are not able to play above 1-2 or 2-5 due to many factors. What factors are they?


    All gambling has sick runs of luck, good and bad. Sports poker, keno, horses, everything. Skill games and games of pure luck, there will be runs of luck good and bad. Its just simple statistics considering the millions of people playing.  Didn't some guy on this site pick 25 games in a row and win 100k a year or two ago?  The odds of that are over 3.3 million to one. But it happened. 
     
    TRAIN69
    TRAIN69
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    Posted: Jun. 5, 2013 - 6:59 PM ET #79

    Quote Originally Posted by BIGfnPOO:

    if  m jordan had no arms he would beat u in bball ...if tiger had a arm tied 'round his back he beat u at golf......if   eh  u get it   i can  beat  any  pro poker plyr  a hand.   that is luck.  fk u.       u will never beat tiger one frikkin hole.    well maybe  erik lindgren can.

    You are confusing sports and games. They are not the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGfnPOO:

    if  m jordan had no arms he would beat u in bball ...if tiger had a arm tied 'round his back he beat u at golf......if   eh  u get it   i can  beat  any  pro poker plyr  a hand.   that is luck.  fk u.       u will never beat tiger one frikkin hole.    well maybe  erik lindgren can.

    You are confusing sports and games. They are not the same thing.

     
    vanzack
    vanzack
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    Posted: Jun. 6, 2013 - 9:00 AM ET #80

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesD816:

    I have read quite a bit on covers though I do not post much. The skill threshold argument by Vanzack is not accurate at all. Vanzack is obviously one of the most respected, if not the most respected poster on covers. To be blunt if his skill threshold argument was posted by 99.9% of the covers community he would have gotten tons more heat. There is no skill ceiling that once a player reaches it he is equal to others that have also reached the top. As a matter of fact the game evolves all the time. A guy who was a winner in early online poker in lets say 2003 was not nearly as good as a guy in 2008.  The guys that were tops in 2008 would get crushed by the guys in 2013. This applies to all stakes, from micros to high stakes. It also applies to live play. The players that continue to work on their game are the ones that continue to succeed year after year.

    Is there luck in Poker?  Of course there is and it is more of a factor in tournaments then cash. There is luck in all gambling.  How many NBA sports bettors would be RICH if every game they lost by 2 points or less they won.  Those NBA last second meaningless layups to cover the spread are also 100% luck. A great poker player needs to win far less coin tosses and get far less premium hands then an average player or a poor player to be successful. Just like a great handicapper can take a few more bad beats and still be profitable.

    I am VERY surprised so many people who bet sports and think sports is beatable think poker is luck.  In many ways it defies logic because you control so much more in poker then you do when betting into efficient markets and paying vig. 

    Good post.

    Question - is the difference between play in 2003, 2008, and 2013 just a difference - or is it "better" as you say?  In other words, are there trends in poker where you have an edge for a short period of time because you are playing differently - not better - and then quickly that edge is gone?

    Also, would like to hear why if it is skill that you don't see the same players at the top and winning (or at least top 10) of tournaments all the time consistently.  Like golf.

    Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesD816:

    I have read quite a bit on covers though I do not post much. The skill threshold argument by Vanzack is not accurate at all. Vanzack is obviously one of the most respected, if not the most respected poster on covers. To be blunt if his skill threshold argument was posted by 99.9% of the covers community he would have gotten tons more heat. There is no skill ceiling that once a player reaches it he is equal to others that have also reached the top. As a matter of fact the game evolves all the time. A guy who was a winner in early online poker in lets say 2003 was not nearly as good as a guy in 2008.  The guys that were tops in 2008 would get crushed by the guys in 2013. This applies to all stakes, from micros to high stakes. It also applies to live play. The players that continue to work on their game are the ones that continue to succeed year after year.

    Is there luck in Poker?  Of course there is and it is more of a factor in tournaments then cash. There is luck in all gambling.  How many NBA sports bettors would be RICH if every game they lost by 2 points or less they won.  Those NBA last second meaningless layups to cover the spread are also 100% luck. A great poker player needs to win far less coin tosses and get far less premium hands then an average player or a poor player to be successful. Just like a great handicapper can take a few more bad beats and still be profitable.

    I am VERY surprised so many people who bet sports and think sports is beatable think poker is luck.  In many ways it defies logic because you control so much more in poker then you do when betting into efficient markets and paying vig. 

    Good post.

    Question - is the difference between play in 2003, 2008, and 2013 just a difference - or is it "better" as you say?  In other words, are there trends in poker where you have an edge for a short period of time because you are playing differently - not better - and then quickly that edge is gone?

    Also, would like to hear why if it is skill that you don't see the same players at the top and winning (or at least top 10) of tournaments all the time consistently.  Like golf.

     
    TRAIN69
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    Posted: Jun. 6, 2013 - 7:43 PM ET #81

    Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

    Good post.

    Question - is the difference between play in 2003, 2008, and 2013 just a difference - or is it "better" as you say?  In other words, are there trends in poker where you have an edge for a short period of time because you are playing differently - not better - and then quickly that edge is gone?

    Also, would like to hear why if it is skill that you don't see the same players at the top and winning (or at least top 10) of tournaments all the time consistently.  Like golf.

    Golf is you against the course, not the other players. Also, you get to see what the opponent has (score), so you know if you need to make a birdy on the 18th to win or if a par will do. In poker, its always you vs 1-9 other people (usually 9 as most tourneys have 10 person tables), and then the other 50-8,000 people playing. Every hand puts you in a different position (UTG,BB,SB, cutoff etc), so the game is different 10 times per revolution of the table.

    Golf is a sport, poker is a game. If I pulled 2 random clubs out of Tiger Woods bag at every hole and thats all he got to use, do you think he would still have won 12 majors? You can be the best poker player ever, but if you get dealt 2-8 offsuit every hand you simply cant win, and thats the "luck" part of it.

    Just my 2c

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    Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

    Good post.

    Question - is the difference between play in 2003, 2008, and 2013 just a difference - or is it "better" as you say?  In other words, are there trends in poker where you have an edge for a short period of time because you are playing differently - not better - and then quickly that edge is gone?

    Also, would like to hear why if it is skill that you don't see the same players at the top and winning (or at least top 10) of tournaments all the time consistently.  Like golf.

    Golf is you against the course, not the other players. Also, you get to see what the opponent has (score), so you know if you need to make a birdy on the 18th to win or if a par will do. In poker, its always you vs 1-9 other people (usually 9 as most tourneys have 10 person tables), and then the other 50-8,000 people playing. Every hand puts you in a different position (UTG,BB,SB, cutoff etc), so the game is different 10 times per revolution of the table.

    Golf is a sport, poker is a game. If I pulled 2 random clubs out of Tiger Woods bag at every hole and thats all he got to use, do you think he would still have won 12 majors? You can be the best poker player ever, but if you get dealt 2-8 offsuit every hand you simply cant win, and thats the "luck" part of it.

    Just my 2c

     
    vanzack
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    Posted: Jun. 6, 2013 - 8:07 PM ET #82

    Quote Originally Posted by TRAIN69:

    Golf is you against the course, not the other players. Also, you get to see what the opponent has (score), so you know if you need to make a birdy on the 18th to win or if a par will do. In poker, its always you vs 1-9 other people (usually 9 as most tourneys have 10 person tables), and then the other 50-8,000 people playing. Every hand puts you in a different position (UTG,BB,SB, cutoff etc), so the game is different 10 times per revolution of the table.

    Golf is a sport, poker is a game. If I pulled 2 random clubs out of Tiger Woods bag at every hole and thats all he got to use, do you think he would still have won 12 majors? You can be the best poker player ever, but if you get dealt 2-8 offsuit every hand you simply cant win, and thats the "luck" part of it.

    Just my 2c

    Well - I think you restated my point.

    I would suppose that if the poker top 10 changed every year, and there was very little repeats on that list, then skill as a determinant would have to be questioned.

    I casually brought up golf - because it was probably the first thing I could think of that was an individual skill against a large pool of competitors.  I don't think anyone would argue that on the scale of luck / skill that golf success is very close to the end of the skill continuum.  And yes - Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament, but you consistently see him over the longterm towards the top.

    So maybe you don't like golf because it is a sport.  Is Chess a sport or a game?  Well, you don't see the chess ranking continuously flip year to year.  I think it is safe to assume that Chess is - like golf - closer to the skill end of the luck / skill scale.

    I know nobody is arguing that there is luck involved in poker - everyone acknowledges that.  The one specific point that "jamesd816" made that I would like further clarification on is that poker - longterm - success can be attributed to skill. 

    I argue that poker is a lake filled with all kinds of fish.  Big predatory fish like sharks, and small feeder fish like minnows - and everything in between.  That poker lake has a drain at the bottom, and that lake loses a bit of its water every day with no replacement (rake).  When that lake eventually dries up - and it will - the sharks will have long eaten the minnows and everything in between - but the sharks will also eat themselves and eventually go belly up on dry land.

    I also argue that once you are a shark, there is no other "super species".  You are at the top of the food chain, but there are also lots of other sharks in the water with you.  Its no problem at first because there are lots of minnows, then carp, then bass - but eventually all there is left is sharks just like you.  And a shark is as high as it gets - and there are lots of them - and the luck of the draw determines whether you get one of the last remaining bass or carp swimming in the lake.  You made it to the end - and outlasted 95% of everything else - but eventually you are flopping around on the shore.

    JamesD816 stated that poker players in 2013 are "better" than poker players in 2003.  Is that true?  Is that like saying LeBron is better than Magic simply because they played in different eras - or is it more accurate to say that they are of similar skill but in different circumstances?

    Maybe - like I always say to covers posters who claim it is impossible to make money betting on sports - I am a caveman looking up at the stars.  I cant do it, so nobody can do it, and I don't know enough about poker to make these kinds of assumptions.  I am willing to accept that.  I just want someone to tell me specifically where I go wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRAIN69:

    Golf is you against the course, not the other players. Also, you get to see what the opponent has (score), so you know if you need to make a birdy on the 18th to win or if a par will do. In poker, its always you vs 1-9 other people (usually 9 as most tourneys have 10 person tables), and then the other 50-8,000 people playing. Every hand puts you in a different position (UTG,BB,SB, cutoff etc), so the game is different 10 times per revolution of the table.

    Golf is a sport, poker is a game. If I pulled 2 random clubs out of Tiger Woods bag at every hole and thats all he got to use, do you think he would still have won 12 majors? You can be the best poker player ever, but if you get dealt 2-8 offsuit every hand you simply cant win, and thats the "luck" part of it.

    Just my 2c

    Well - I think you restated my point.

    I would suppose that if the poker top 10 changed every year, and there was very little repeats on that list, then skill as a determinant would have to be questioned.

    I casually brought up golf - because it was probably the first thing I could think of that was an individual skill against a large pool of competitors.  I don't think anyone would argue that on the scale of luck / skill that golf success is very close to the end of the skill continuum.  And yes - Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament, but you consistently see him over the longterm towards the top.

    So maybe you don't like golf because it is a sport.  Is Chess a sport or a game?  Well, you don't see the chess ranking continuously flip year to year.  I think it is safe to assume that Chess is - like golf - closer to the skill end of the luck / skill scale.

    I know nobody is arguing that there is luck involved in poker - everyone acknowledges that.  The one specific point that "jamesd816" made that I would like further clarification on is that poker - longterm - success can be attributed to skill. 

    I argue that poker is a lake filled with all kinds of fish.  Big predatory fish like sharks, and small feeder fish like minnows - and everything in between.  That poker lake has a drain at the bottom, and that lake loses a bit of its water every day with no replacement (rake).  When that lake eventually dries up - and it will - the sharks will have long eaten the minnows and everything in between - but the sharks will also eat themselves and eventually go belly up on dry land.

    I also argue that once you are a shark, there is no other "super species".  You are at the top of the food chain, but there are also lots of other sharks in the water with you.  Its no problem at first because there are lots of minnows, then carp, then bass - but eventually all there is left is sharks just like you.  And a shark is as high as it gets - and there are lots of them - and the luck of the draw determines whether you get one of the last remaining bass or carp swimming in the lake.  You made it to the end - and outlasted 95% of everything else - but eventually you are flopping around on the shore.

    JamesD816 stated that poker players in 2013 are "better" than poker players in 2003.  Is that true?  Is that like saying LeBron is better than Magic simply because they played in different eras - or is it more accurate to say that they are of similar skill but in different circumstances?

    Maybe - like I always say to covers posters who claim it is impossible to make money betting on sports - I am a caveman looking up at the stars.  I cant do it, so nobody can do it, and I don't know enough about poker to make these kinds of assumptions.  I am willing to accept that.  I just want someone to tell me specifically where I go wrong.

     
    vanzack
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    Posted: Jun. 6, 2013 - 8:13 PM ET #83

    And let me state proactively - with total transparency - that I acknowledge that I am not a poker expert.  My poker career consists of winning a handful of 10k poker tournaments - but my overall poker experience is certainly limited in comparison to many other people.  Im not a minnow, but I am certainly not a shark.

    But I am a student of game theory.  And I do think that my knowledge of odds and statistics allow me to speak somewhat intelligently about this.

    I guess what I am saying is that I welcome a discussion on this - as I have as long as this thread has been around - which is a long time.  I am not certain of my position, but it doesn't hurt that this has been out there for years and nobody has really grabbed and tugged at the other side of the rope.

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    And let me state proactively - with total transparency - that I acknowledge that I am not a poker expert.  My poker career consists of winning a handful of 10k poker tournaments - but my overall poker experience is certainly limited in comparison to many other people.  Im not a minnow, but I am certainly not a shark.

    But I am a student of game theory.  And I do think that my knowledge of odds and statistics allow me to speak somewhat intelligently about this.

    I guess what I am saying is that I welcome a discussion on this - as I have as long as this thread has been around - which is a long time.  I am not certain of my position, but it doesn't hurt that this has been out there for years and nobody has really grabbed and tugged at the other side of the rope.

     
    TRAIN69
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    Posted: Jun. 6, 2013 - 9:58 PM ET #84

    Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

    Well - I think you restated my point.

    I would suppose that if the poker top 10 changed every year, and there was very little repeats on that list, then skill as a determinant would have to be questioned.

    I casually brought up golf - because it was probably the first thing I could think of that was an individual skill against a large pool of competitors.  I don't think anyone would argue that on the scale of luck / skill that golf success is very close to the end of the skill continuum.  And yes - Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament, but you consistently see him over the longterm towards the top.

    So maybe you don't like golf because it is a sport.  Is Chess a sport or a game?  Well, you don't see the chess ranking continuously flip year to year.  I think it is safe to assume that Chess is - like golf - closer to the skill end of the luck / skill scale.

    I know nobody is arguing that there is luck involved in poker - everyone acknowledges that.  The one specific point that "jamesd816" made that I would like further clarification on is that poker - longterm - success can be attributed to skill. 

    I argue that poker is a lake filled with all kinds of fish.  Big predatory fish like sharks, and small feeder fish like minnows - and everything in between.  That poker lake has a drain at the bottom, and that lake loses a bit of its water every day with no replacement (rake).  When that lake eventually dries up - and it will - the sharks will have long eaten the minnows and everything in between - but the sharks will also eat themselves and eventually go belly up on dry land.

    I also argue that once you are a shark, there is no other "super species".  You are at the top of the food chain, but there are also lots of other sharks in the water with you.  Its no problem at first because there are lots of minnows, then carp, then bass - but eventually all there is left is sharks just like you.  And a shark is as high as it gets - and there are lots of them - and the luck of the draw determines whether you get one of the last remaining bass or carp swimming in the lake.  You made it to the end - and outlasted 95% of everything else - but eventually you are flopping around on the shore.

    JamesD816 stated that poker players in 2013 are "better" than poker players in 2003.  Is that true?  Is that like saying LeBron is better than Magic simply because they played in different eras - or is it more accurate to say that they are of similar skill but in different circumstances?

    Maybe - like I always say to covers posters who claim it is impossible to make money betting on sports - I am a caveman looking up at the stars.  I cant do it, so nobody can do it, and I don't know enough about poker to make these kinds of assumptions.  I am willing to accept that.  I just want someone to tell me specifically where I go wrong.

    I agree and understand. I think the problem with trying to grasp poker skill is that there isnt another game/sport to really compare it to. No teams. Cant choose your weapon (no golf clubs, balls,pucks etc), you go into every hand not knowing what 2 cards you are going to look at. You dont know what "the score" is (wether your hand is the best), you have to deduce what the opponent has through various factors.

    I am unsure if there is a ceiling to how good you can get, but the odds/luck part will cripple the best players in the world a good percentage of the time. Winning a poker hand doesnt mean you are better than the other guy. Rare game where a foolish move doesnt mean you will lose.

    Kenny Rogers actually put it best in 1978 :

    "Now Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
    Is knowin' what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
    'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
    And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

    Van

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    Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

    Well - I think you restated my point.

    I would suppose that if the poker top 10 changed every year, and there was very little repeats on that list, then skill as a determinant would have to be questioned.

    I casually brought up golf - because it was probably the first thing I could think of that was an individual skill against a large pool of competitors.  I don't think anyone would argue that on the scale of luck / skill that golf success is very close to the end of the skill continuum.  And yes - Tiger Woods doesn't win every tournament, but you consistently see him over the longterm towards the top.

    So maybe you don't like golf because it is a sport.  Is Chess a sport or a game?  Well, you don't see the chess ranking continuously flip year to year.  I think it is safe to assume that Chess is - like golf - closer to the skill end of the luck / skill scale.

    I know nobody is arguing that there is luck involved in poker - everyone acknowledges that.  The one specific point that "jamesd816" made that I would like further clarification on is that poker - longterm - success can be attributed to skill. 

    I argue that poker is a lake filled with all kinds of fish.  Big predatory fish like sharks, and small feeder fish like minnows - and everything in between.  That poker lake has a drain at the bottom, and that lake loses a bit of its water every day with no replacement (rake).  When that lake eventually dries up - and it will - the sharks will have long eaten the minnows and everything in between - but the sharks will also eat themselves and eventually go belly up on dry land.

    I also argue that once you are a shark, there is no other "super species".  You are at the top of the food chain, but there are also lots of other sharks in the water with you.  Its no problem at first because there are lots of minnows, then carp, then bass - but eventually all there is left is sharks just like you.  And a shark is as high as it gets - and there are lots of them - and the luck of the draw determines whether you get one of the last remaining bass or carp swimming in the lake.  You made it to the end - and outlasted 95% of everything else - but eventually you are flopping around on the shore.

    JamesD816 stated that poker players in 2013 are "better" than poker players in 2003.  Is that true?  Is that like saying LeBron is better than Magic simply because they played in different eras - or is it more accurate to say that they are of similar skill but in different circumstances?

    Maybe - like I always say to covers posters who claim it is impossible to make money betting on sports - I am a caveman looking up at the stars.  I cant do it, so nobody can do it, and I don't know enough about poker to make these kinds of assumptions.  I am willing to accept that.  I just want someone to tell me specifically where I go wrong.

    I agree and understand. I think the problem with trying to grasp poker skill is that there isnt another game/sport to really compare it to. No teams. Cant choose your weapon (no golf clubs, balls,pucks etc), you go into every hand not knowing what 2 cards you are going to look at. You dont know what "the score" is (wether your hand is the best), you have to deduce what the opponent has through various factors.

    I am unsure if there is a ceiling to how good you can get, but the odds/luck part will cripple the best players in the world a good percentage of the time. Winning a poker hand doesnt mean you are better than the other guy. Rare game where a foolish move doesnt mean you will lose.

    Kenny Rogers actually put it best in 1978 :

    "Now Ev'ry gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
    Is knowin' what to throw away and knowing what to keep.
    'Cause ev'ry hand's a winner and ev'ry hand's a loser,
    And the best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

    Van

     
    wizardofroz
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2013 - 3:20 AM ET #85

    The game of Hold em rarely rewards what mathematical players put into it. Just look at the list of goofballs who have won the WSOP in the last decade or so, and one quickly realizes that luck is a major part of the game, and skill is a minor, albeit important part. 

    The reason so many young new players do well in tourneys is that they are willing to gamble with marginal hands, and if the deck hits them, they are tough to beat.  But long-term, almost all poker players invest a lot of time making no little to no money, or going broke eventually on multiple occasions.
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    The game of Hold em rarely rewards what mathematical players put into it. Just look at the list of goofballs who have won the WSOP in the last decade or so, and one quickly realizes that luck is a major part of the game, and skill is a minor, albeit important part. 

    The reason so many young new players do well in tourneys is that they are willing to gamble with marginal hands, and if the deck hits them, they are tough to beat.  But long-term, almost all poker players invest a lot of time making no little to no money, or going broke eventually on multiple occasions.
     
    wizardofroz
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2013 - 3:22 AM ET #86

    And young gamblers are the worst:  they are naive and cocky and think that they can reinvent the wheel, only to find out that ALL gambling is brutal and designed to make you eventually go broke over time.  
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    And young gamblers are the worst:  they are naive and cocky and think that they can reinvent the wheel, only to find out that ALL gambling is brutal and designed to make you eventually go broke over time.  
     
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2013 - 11:00 PM ET #87

    these mofos got knapsacks full//// i had to get my bro banned    he was ready to get illy
    bigFnPOO
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    these mofos got knapsacks full//// i had to get my bro banned    he was ready to get illy
     
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 7, 2013 - 11:06 PM ET #88

    andy bloch is a beast
    bigFnPOO
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    andy bloch is a beast
     
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    Posted: Jun. 9, 2013 - 1:08 AM ET #89

    capt tom will win 1
    bigFnPOO
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    capt tom will win 1
     
    JamesD816
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    Posted: Jun. 9, 2013 - 3:44 AM ET #90

    Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

    Good post.

    Question - is the difference between play in 2003, 2008, and 2013 just a difference - or is it "better" as you say?  In other words, are there trends in poker where you have an edge for a short period of time because you are playing differently - not better - and then quickly that edge is gone?

    Also, would like to hear why if it is skill that you don't see the same players at the top and winning (or at least top 10) of tournaments all the time consistently.  Like golf.


    Van,

      I see the thread has moved forward, some days I do not come to covers so I could not join discussion. Let me answer your questions.  First before I get to your questions let me say absolutely luck plays a factor in the short term in poker. However skill is the primary factor long term. Let me give you an example.

      You are obviously  a very sharp gambler so let me ask you something. Lets say your ENTIRE net worth is 8 million dollars.  I am sure if I asked you to risk the eight million dollars, your entire net worth eight million dollars,   on a coin toss but if you won I would pay you 125% of your net worth, 10 million dollars, you would decline my offer. Although it is a great bet for you in a mathematical expectation sense, the risk is too great and you could absolutely lose. I am equally confident it I made you the same offer but we would flip the coin 2 million times and each win you would be rewarded the 10 million  but each loss you would pay the eight million you would jump at this opportunity.  Being a smart guy that is familiar with standard deviations and probabilities you know that you are a guaranteed winner with my 2 million flips offer which is of course not the case with my  single flip offer.  The reason I use this example is thousand of  online poker pros play 2 million hands annually.   They know just like with a coin toss a single hand has a great amount of luck determining the outcome. However play millions of hands and the luck factor is diminished to virtually zero.  If you have an edge against the people you are competing with you will be a long term winner. The greater your edge the greater you ROI will be. If you are not winning over millions of hands you do not have the edge you think you have.  Ok now to your questions.....

    The play from 2003 was far weaker then the play of 2013. It is not just different, playing a  2003 style of play would get a person CRUSHED in 2013. The game had evolved a great deal in the last ten years. Flaws in strategy that were not apparent to high stakes players in 2003 are evident to even mid stakes players today. Online poker gives players so much data to dissect about their own game as well as their opponents.  Poker books, HUDs, hand histories, data mining, strategy forums, skype groups that dissect hands, poker coaching sites poker forums etc etc. Thanks to all these things play has improved by leaps and bounds.  Year after year players analyze this immense amount of data  and try to plug all the little weaknesses  in their games while also looking for weaknesses in their adversaries games,. I could list 20 different potential weaknesses but this post is too damn already and  you understand what I mean. If you want a list ask me.

    Information is the reason the poker universe changes so quickly. Look at something like data mining. That is when you get the hand histories of your opponents so you can dissect their style of play. 
    Its cheating and not allowed by any online poker sites. Getting info can make a good player CRUSH a great player for millions. This is a great read.  


    https://www.pokernews.com/news/2009/12/pokernews-exclusive-isildur1-speaks-about-the-4-million-7714.htm

    The guy who got robbed the 4+ million won over a million just  last week winning the online WCOOP. 580 players buy in was 10,300. He has recovered from getting robbed because he is so talented and just crushed even the top players

    You mentioned Golf as something you wanted to compare, lets look at golf. You asked why in golf you see the same people in the top ten all the time but not in poker.  First just look at the hard numbers in golf for almost all PGA events  you have fields of 132-156 depending on the season. At the WSOP the average field  size was 1226 in 2012. It is much more difficult to crack the top ten against 1225 opponents then it is 144.  Despite fields almost 1/9th the size golfers on the top level don't even win all that much either. In the years 2010-2013 excluding tiger and Rory only one golfer ever had a 3 win year, Jim Furyk in 2010.  It seems that the same guys make the top ten every week only  because so many of their names are familiar to us. But in actuality there are dozens of guys out of the 144 peppering the top ten week in and week out.  The PGA has had 18 or 19 events this year. Over 45 players have cracked  the top ten a minimum of three times, not a single player has done it more then six. There is a lot more parity in the PGA  then people realize. I would say Golf has Tiger & Rory Poker has the two Phils ( one a tournament specialist) and the rest of the players in both are in the pack

    The second thing you have to realize is poker is a game of the mind and golf is a game of the mind AND body. Just look at tigers huge slump after his divorce and you know golf is a mental game for players at all levels. Not just a physical one. But the fact is physical ability is a huge part of golf and it will great affect the outcome of events. Some player are so vastly superior physically and technically then others  that  often they can overcome  mental or even physical  mistakes whether it be a poor club choice, bad form or even  poor shot selection. Rory Mcllroy is ranked in the top 10 in driving distance on the PGA tour, his drive is 15 yards longer then the tour average. That physical ability is one of the reasons he is top five in greens in regulation and the number two ranked player in the world. Guys like Rory and Tiger are vastly superior physically and it gives them a huge edge every time they step on the course. Sometimes they play poor enough to surrender that edge  often then not they do not.  When they are at their peak mentally AND physically they are going to be in the mix on sunday.  Rory had SIX titles last year four on PGA while Tiger had 3 . Rory only had four in previous five years on the tour but he looks like he is growing up and will sit with Tiger above the pack for a long time.

    There is no question that over a finite amount of time the luck factor in poker can great affect results. Poker players call it variance.  But Variance works both ways, sometimes you will run good and sometimes you will run bad. However long term luck will run pretty close to even and a superior player will thrive. 


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    Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:

    Good post.

    Question - is the difference between play in 2003, 2008, and 2013 just a difference - or is it "better" as you say?  In other words, are there trends in poker where you have an edge for a short period of time because you are playing differently - not better - and then quickly that edge is gone?

    Also, would like to hear why if it is skill that you don't see the same players at the top and winning (or at least top 10) of tournaments all the time consistently.  Like golf.


    Van,

      I see the thread has moved forward, some days I do not come to covers so I could not join discussion. Let me answer your questions.  First before I get to your questions let me say absolutely luck plays a factor in the short term in poker. However skill is the primary factor long term. Let me give you an example.

      You are obviously  a very sharp gambler so let me ask you something. Lets say your ENTIRE net worth is 8 million dollars.  I am sure if I asked you to risk the eight million dollars, your entire net worth eight million dollars,   on a coin toss but if you won I would pay you 125% of your net worth, 10 million dollars, you would decline my offer. Although it is a great bet for you in a mathematical expectation sense, the risk is too great and you could absolutely lose. I am equally confident it I made you the same offer but we would flip the coin 2 million times and each win you would be rewarded the 10 million  but each loss you would pay the eight million you would jump at this opportunity.  Being a smart guy that is familiar with standard deviations and probabilities you know that you are a guaranteed winner with my 2 million flips offer which is of course not the case with my  single flip offer.  The reason I use this example is thousand of  online poker pros play 2 million hands annually.   They know just like with a coin toss a single hand has a great amount of luck determining the outcome. However play millions of hands and the luck factor is diminished to virtually zero.  If you have an edge against the people you are competing with you will be a long term winner. The greater your edge the greater you ROI will be. If you are not winning over millions of hands you do not have the edge you think you have.  Ok now to your questions.....

    The play from 2003 was far weaker then the play of 2013. It is not just different, playing a  2003 style of play would get a person CRUSHED in 2013. The game had evolved a great deal in the last ten years. Flaws in strategy that were not apparent to high stakes players in 2003 are evident to even mid stakes players today. Online poker gives players so much data to dissect about their own game as well as their opponents.  Poker books, HUDs, hand histories, data mining, strategy forums, skype groups that dissect hands, poker coaching sites poker forums etc etc. Thanks to all these things play has improved by leaps and bounds.  Year after year players analyze this immense amount of data  and try to plug all the little weaknesses  in their games while also looking for weaknesses in their adversaries games,. I could list 20 different potential weaknesses but this post is too damn already and  you understand what I mean. If you want a list ask me.

    Information is the reason the poker universe changes so quickly. Look at something like data mining. That is when you get the hand histories of your opponents so you can dissect their style of play. 
    Its cheating and not allowed by any online poker sites. Getting info can make a good player CRUSH a great player for millions. This is a great read.  


    https://www.pokernews.com/news/2009/12/pokernews-exclusive-isildur1-speaks-about-the-4-million-7714.htm

    The guy who got robbed the 4+ million won over a million just  last week winning the online WCOOP. 580 players buy in was 10,300. He has recovered from getting robbed because he is so talented and just crushed even the top players

    You mentioned Golf as something you wanted to compare, lets look at golf. You asked why in golf you see the same people in the top ten all the time but not in poker.  First just look at the hard numbers in golf for almost all PGA events  you have fields of 132-156 depending on the season. At the WSOP the average field  size was 1226 in 2012. It is much more difficult to crack the top ten against 1225 opponents then it is 144.  Despite fields almost 1/9th the size golfers on the top level don't even win all that much either. In the years 2010-2013 excluding tiger and Rory only one golfer ever had a 3 win year, Jim Furyk in 2010.  It seems that the same guys make the top ten every week only  because so many of their names are familiar to us. But in actuality there are dozens of guys out of the 144 peppering the top ten week in and week out.  The PGA has had 18 or 19 events this year. Over 45 players have cracked  the top ten a minimum of three times, not a single player has done it more then six. There is a lot more parity in the PGA  then people realize. I would say Golf has Tiger & Rory Poker has the two Phils ( one a tournament specialist) and the rest of the players in both are in the pack

    The second thing you have to realize is poker is a game of the mind and golf is a game of the mind AND body. Just look at tigers huge slump after his divorce and you know golf is a mental game for players at all levels. Not just a physical one. But the fact is physical ability is a huge part of golf and it will great affect the outcome of events. Some player are so vastly superior physically and technically then others  that  often they can overcome  mental or even physical  mistakes whether it be a poor club choice, bad form or even  poor shot selection. Rory Mcllroy is ranked in the top 10 in driving distance on the PGA tour, his drive is 15 yards longer then the tour average. That physical ability is one of the reasons he is top five in greens in regulation and the number two ranked player in the world. Guys like Rory and Tiger are vastly superior physically and it gives them a huge edge every time they step on the course. Sometimes they play poor enough to surrender that edge  often then not they do not.  When they are at their peak mentally AND physically they are going to be in the mix on sunday.  Rory had SIX titles last year four on PGA while Tiger had 3 . Rory only had four in previous five years on the tour but he looks like he is growing up and will sit with Tiger above the pack for a long time.

    There is no question that over a finite amount of time the luck factor in poker can great affect results. Poker players call it variance.  But Variance works both ways, sometimes you will run good and sometimes you will run bad. However long term luck will run pretty close to even and a superior player will thrive. 


     
    1129ken
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    Posted: Jun. 10, 2013 - 9:18 AM ET #91

    A real privilege ( and a humbling one at that ) to be able to learn from the Vanzack/JamesD816 seminar. Thanks. 

     

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    A real privilege ( and a humbling one at that ) to be able to learn from the Vanzack/JamesD816 seminar. Thanks. 

     

     
    scalabrine
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    Posted: Jun. 12, 2013 - 11:54 AM ET #92

    @james

    I'd like to hear the 20 potential weaknesses you've spotted that you've profited from.

    Of even just a few unique ones...
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    @james

    I'd like to hear the 20 potential weaknesses you've spotted that you've profited from.

    Of even just a few unique ones...
     
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 14, 2013 - 2:14 AM ET #93

    bigFnPOO
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    Fortmax
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    Posted: Jun. 14, 2013 - 12:14 PM ET #94

    @James,

    Could you please enlighten us the 20 weakneses in poker ?,i'm still in the learning process of poker and hopefully get better in the future.

    I play recreationally ,poker tournament's during weekends.

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    @James,

    Could you please enlighten us the 20 weakneses in poker ?,i'm still in the learning process of poker and hopefully get better in the future.

    I play recreationally ,poker tournament's during weekends.

     
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 15, 2013 - 10:57 PM ET #95

     



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    JamesD816
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    Posted: Jun. 16, 2013 - 7:19 PM ET #96

    Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

    @james

    I'd like to hear the 20 potential weaknesses you've spotted that you've profited from.

    Of even just a few unique ones...

    Just saw your post. I have about ten minutes so I will do my best on the fly. These are not in any particular order though some are crucial. Also order of importance does have something to do with stakes you play, table dynamics, and your style of play.  Ok here we go

    1. Players unaware of  position, position is crucial. 
    2. Limping into pots. This is a very very common fish mistake.
    3. Is failure to isolate limpers when you have a premium hand preflop
    4. Trying to bluff calling stations. This applies to all stakes
    5. Being overly creative in low stakes games. Stick to ABC poker
    6. Being a calling station ( this is as bad as bluffing one)
    7. Raising  too may hands on button. The button is important but do not think it is a suit of armor, you still need to show some restraint. Good players are very familiar with people bullying with button and they will slow pay a big hand to go over the top or smooth call and you will likely be in big trouble after the flop. Button raises are good, button raises every time is a very risky strategy.
    8. Incorrect bet sizing/pot odds. This has many sub chapters. Not betting enough to get people off draws when you have a made hand or over betting   when you have a nice chunk of a dry board. 
    9. Not mixing it up at all. This is more for mid stakes to high stakes. Playing ABC poker low stakes is acceptable. Playing too conservative or too  tight in higher stakes means good players will only play back at you if they have monster hands. I can think of 10 guys I would fold bottom two pair on the flop to if they bet or reraised me that I see regularly in LA cash games. I can think of dozens of other guys I would go over the top against in the same situation.  The ones I would go over the top against are FAR better players then the ones I would lay my hand down to. 
    10. Drinking
    11. Straddling. Straddling is ok ( at best) if at least half the players are doing it and its a loose game with a few weak players. However typically when you straddle you are playing in an unnaturally bloated pot in relation to your hand and you are out of position.
    12. Failure to continuation bet after a preflop raise. 
    13. Set mining with less then 8-1 implied odds.  
    14. failure to protect quality hands preflop
    15 Calling 3 bets too light.  If someone bets, you raise and they go over the top. Your range of calling hands here should be very clearly defined in your head. Remember 4bet and fold are both also options.
    16. Playing too many hands preflop/ lack of patience
    17.  Playing scared, usually because you are  in a game too big for you bankroll. You see this often in big card rooms. If I see a 5-10 or 10-20  reg in the 25-50 game the first thing I try to find out is if he is stakes or sold some pieces of himself. If he did not I try to put pressure on him at these higher stakes whenever possible.
    18 exhaustion. People playing too long make many mistakes. When you show up to the cardroom in the morning its not hard to figure out who pulled an all nighter.
    19. Awareness of stack sizes. There are many examples I could cite but due to time restraints I will only mention one. For instance, in a multiway pot after the flop  you can not bluff nearly as often if one of the player in the pot only has 900 left and there is 5k in the pot. He is probably calling with any pair or draw hoping to improve on turn or river
    20. Tilt.chasing losses




    OK I listed 20 and saved one of my favorites for last. This is a huge mistake for many weaker players.  # 21 is the reverse free roll. Most of us as gamblers know  what a free roll is. If you dont know I will tell you. Lets say you bet a baseball game over 9 and its 6-3 in the 7th inning. Well you are on a free roll. You are going to win or push, you can not lose. Thats a free roll.  A reverse free roll is very common in poker. Its when a player makes a bet on the river that is ONLY getting called by a better hand.  For instance if you have a set and there are four clubs on the board and you make a big bet on the river, do you think you are getting called if your opponent doesnt have a club?  Same applies to a four card straight on the board, if you have top 2 or a set.  There are more subtle nuances to the reverse free roll when people over bet top 2 pairs, the a** end of the straight or a weak flush but I am out of time.

    I would happily answer any questions about any specific leak and go into further detail when I have time.  I am sure I missed half a dozen more and will notice it when I reread post later today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scalabrine:

    @james

    I'd like to hear the 20 potential weaknesses you've spotted that you've profited from.

    Of even just a few unique ones...

    Just saw your post. I have about ten minutes so I will do my best on the fly. These are not in any particular order though some are crucial. Also order of importance does have something to do with stakes you play, table dynamics, and your style of play.  Ok here we go

    1. Players unaware of  position, position is crucial. 
    2. Limping into pots. This is a very very common fish mistake.
    3. Is failure to isolate limpers when you have a premium hand preflop
    4. Trying to bluff calling stations. This applies to all stakes
    5. Being overly creative in low stakes games. Stick to ABC poker
    6. Being a calling station ( this is as bad as bluffing one)
    7. Raising  too may hands on button. The button is important but do not think it is a suit of armor, you still need to show some restraint. Good players are very familiar with people bullying with button and they will slow pay a big hand to go over the top or smooth call and you will likely be in big trouble after the flop. Button raises are good, button raises every time is a very risky strategy.
    8. Incorrect bet sizing/pot odds. This has many sub chapters. Not betting enough to get people off draws when you have a made hand or over betting   when you have a nice chunk of a dry board. 
    9. Not mixing it up at all. This is more for mid stakes to high stakes. Playing ABC poker low stakes is acceptable. Playing too conservative or too  tight in higher stakes means good players will only play back at you if they have monster hands. I can think of 10 guys I would fold bottom two pair on the flop to if they bet or reraised me that I see regularly in LA cash games. I can think of dozens of other guys I would go over the top against in the same situation.  The ones I would go over the top against are FAR better players then the ones I would lay my hand down to. 
    10. Drinking
    11. Straddling. Straddling is ok ( at best) if at least half the players are doing it and its a loose game with a few weak players. However typically when you straddle you are playing in an unnaturally bloated pot in relation to your hand and you are out of position.
    12. Failure to continuation bet after a preflop raise. 
    13. Set mining with less then 8-1 implied odds.  
    14. failure to protect quality hands preflop
    15 Calling 3 bets too light.  If someone bets, you raise and they go over the top. Your range of calling hands here should be very clearly defined in your head. Remember 4bet and fold are both also options.
    16. Playing too many hands preflop/ lack of patience
    17.  Playing scared, usually because you are  in a game too big for you bankroll. You see this often in big card rooms. If I see a 5-10 or 10-20  reg in the 25-50 game the first thing I try to find out is if he is stakes or sold some pieces of himself. If he did not I try to put pressure on him at these higher stakes whenever possible.
    18 exhaustion. People playing too long make many mistakes. When you show up to the cardroom in the morning its not hard to figure out who pulled an all nighter.
    19. Awareness of stack sizes. There are many examples I could cite but due to time restraints I will only mention one. For instance, in a multiway pot after the flop  you can not bluff nearly as often if one of the player in the pot only has 900 left and there is 5k in the pot. He is probably calling with any pair or draw hoping to improve on turn or river
    20. Tilt.chasing losses




    OK I listed 20 and saved one of my favorites for last. This is a huge mistake for many weaker players.  # 21 is the reverse free roll. Most of us as gamblers know  what a free roll is. If you dont know I will tell you. Lets say you bet a baseball game over 9 and its 6-3 in the 7th inning. Well you are on a free roll. You are going to win or push, you can not lose. Thats a free roll.  A reverse free roll is very common in poker. Its when a player makes a bet on the river that is ONLY getting called by a better hand.  For instance if you have a set and there are four clubs on the board and you make a big bet on the river, do you think you are getting called if your opponent doesnt have a club?  Same applies to a four card straight on the board, if you have top 2 or a set.  There are more subtle nuances to the reverse free roll when people over bet top 2 pairs, the a** end of the straight or a weak flush but I am out of time.

    I would happily answer any questions about any specific leak and go into further detail when I have time.  I am sure I missed half a dozen more and will notice it when I reread post later today.
     
    Bling
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    Posted: Jun. 16, 2013 - 7:32 PM ET #97

    James, thanks for the info.  You are by far the most knowledgeable player to grace this thread.


    I have a question on #21.  Can you expound further on the reverse free roll?  There are times where I will bet in the situation that you just mentioned, i.e when I have a set, top two pair, etc. when there is an open ended straight draw or maybe even 4 to a flush at times when I am pretty sure my opponent was not on those draws.  I strike first so he cannot bet to try to bluff me out of the pot.  Is that what you were implying?
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    James, thanks for the info.  You are by far the most knowledgeable player to grace this thread.


    I have a question on #21.  Can you expound further on the reverse free roll?  There are times where I will bet in the situation that you just mentioned, i.e when I have a set, top two pair, etc. when there is an open ended straight draw or maybe even 4 to a flush at times when I am pretty sure my opponent was not on those draws.  I strike first so he cannot bet to try to bluff me out of the pot.  Is that what you were implying?
     
    earthWake
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    Posted: Jun. 16, 2013 - 7:50 PM ET #98

    James you seem very smart but all you listed is pretty generic with a few deep levels. Atleast you attack poker with the correct mindset though 

    For example #12, C-betting is very important but do you recommend doing it 100% of the time after a preflop raise? What happens if you flop a monster or out of position. Obviously C-betting must be done out of position but again generic as to say not continuation betting. 
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    James you seem very smart but all you listed is pretty generic with a few deep levels. Atleast you attack poker with the correct mindset though 

    For example #12, C-betting is very important but do you recommend doing it 100% of the time after a preflop raise? What happens if you flop a monster or out of position. Obviously C-betting must be done out of position but again generic as to say not continuation betting. 
     
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 16, 2013 - 11:44 PM ET #99

    bling when u last to act and bet a set on a 4 flush brd and i raise u  where r u?
    bigFnPOO
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    bling when u last to act and bet a set on a 4 flush brd and i raise u  where r u?
     
     
    BIGfnPOO
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    Posted: Jun. 16, 2013 - 11:46 PM ET #100

    great post james
    bigFnPOO
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    great post james
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