Abortion

So, if the man wants an abortion and the woman refuses -- where does the man's obligation stop then?

@Raiders22

 #96- Freedoms for the female and choice for the female are my only social consideration, that is because I am not the person carrying the child or at risk for carrying the child and thus the only societal consideration is choice and rights for the individual carrying the child. My personal views, secular or religious have zero value with regard to the rights and choice of a female in society. 

This is also another copout.  These women are allowed to vote to send men off to war to die.  Do you see this differently?  

If so, how and why?

@wallstreetcappers

Absolutely it is.  That is the problem with the stance. 

@Raiders22

 #101- you cannot shift to financial consideration past birth the only issue here is abortion and the rights of the female, she is the person and the only person who has a say as to what happens to her body in ANY fashion. If a man does not want to financially contribute then do not contribute to the conception process, pretty simple concept.

The man has ZERO say as to the birth process, like it or not, disagree with her choice or not..once the process starts it is 100% the right of the woman and only the woman.

@Raiders22

 We are not playing deflection rationalization games, if you disagree with the draft process then follow the legal channels to express that and to show your disagreement. The only topic today is abortion, nothing else.

@Raiders22

 #104- If you as a MAN do not like giving choice to a WOMAN with regards to abortion then do not have sex or get snipped and then YOU are expressing your position on abortion, outside that as a MAN we have zero say in the matter.

@wallstreetcappers

Why?

For example?

You keep saying that -- but take it inside your house and theoretically play it out?  How would it work?

And does the converse work for the woman here as well or this applies only to the man?

@Raiders22

 In my house it plays out as to the views I have on my own, but even then if I was with a female who was pregnant it is STILL her choice, not mine. In society as I defined it has ZERO to do with my personal views and 100% to do with the rights of the female.

Yes.  But would you be totally ambivalent about it?

But at no point do you view it as her 'rights' trumping anyone else's rights? And why not?

@Raiders22

 The woman carrying the child is the only rights in question, if a MAN wants to support pro-life then either get snipped or do not have sex. That is pro-life. The problem is that MEN want to have sex and contribute to the obligation it creates for a female but not accept responsibility for their actions. The responsibility for the action of procreation is that when a MAN contributes then HE gives UP the right to control the decision of the female BECAUSE of the CHOICE he makes by contributing to the process of procreation. 

My religious or secular views mean zero, my religious and secular views which imply CONTROL over a female is by either not having sex or by getting snipped, that is all a MAN can do to try and control the rights of a woman with regard to procreation. There is no abortion when the man controls the narrative by not creating a pregnancy. If you are pro-life then keep the DNA in your pants and do not allow procreation to go forward.

@wallstreetcappers

 The woman carrying the child is the only rights in question

Yessir.  You keep saying that.  I am asking why is that your stance?  How did you come to this conclusion?

Take the man out of it -- the only question I have about him is why you then obligate him after the woman 'chooses' to have sex and then 'chooses' not to have the abortion.

Why do you take the stance to not consider the child's rights at all?  At what point do they come into play and why at that point?

@wallstreetcappers

 My religious or secular views mean zero

Sure, you can assert that.

But when do you include moral, philosophical or scientific views?

@Raiders22

 #117- when I am in my house talking about my secular and religious opinions, that is pretty much the only time MY abortion concerns have impact. As a MAN we have no say in the rights of a woman, if you do not like abortion then do not participate in the process of procreation. If a MAN decides his rights to give DNA through sex are of highest importance then they LOSE all rights and control with the impacts this choice has on the female.

@wallstreetcappers

 As a MAN we have no say in the rights of a woman

Again, does the opposite apply as well.  If not, why not?

@wallstreetcappers

 if you do not like abortion then do not participate in the process of procreation.

Simply because of this view you have?  That is akin to a pure antinatalism view.  This ignores a lot of other considerations; and I always find that this is purposeful and without clear reasoning.  It still comes down to one person's rights over other's. 

@Raiders22

 #119- That is deflection, the discussion is not if a man has the right regarding a womans choice, I keep answering the same question and you keep trying to divert the topic to something else.

The carrier of the child is the one who has the rights, not the man to control the rights of a female to her body. The control a man has is to not initiate the procreation process, if a man is reckless with their portion of the process then he has no claim on the result.

No sir, it is not.  When you are using that type of reasoning you have to hold what we call logical propositional consistency.  This position does not do that.

I have told you already to remove the man from the equation of the abortion and consider the woman and the child's rights.  Why does one have all of the rights and one have no rights?

The question about the woman being able to tell a man what to do with his body is a separate question as well.  Why is this acceptable? 

So, two very different and separate questions but are conflated into the issue when people take this path on abortion.

@wallstreetcappers

 if a man is reckless with their portion of the process then he has no claim on the result.

This also does not completely solve the quandary.  What if he has been, etc., etc. Adding conditions to it does not change the underlying question.

@Raiders22

 The female holds 100% of the burden and responsibility of the process and development of birth, there is no other way to position it. Even if a man does not agree with the choice of the woman there is no claim he can have since he holds ZERO of the responsibility and burden and risk of pregnancy. The only participant who has rights and claim is the female. It might not seem "fair" in your view but the woman holds all of the burden and all of the claim.

@wallstreetcappers

 And if she has been 'reckless' and even on purpose 'reckless'?