Covid-19 Good And Bad

US government is divided about origin of pandemic.  5 government departments favor natural origin.  2 departments favor lab leak theory and 1 department remains uncertain.  But virology and epidemiological community is much less divided because of strong evidences for natural origin and no evidence of lab leak.

Cochrane review of 51 studies conclude that lockdowns are important in reducing the number of covid deaths and people infected.  Despite many studies showing that masks work, Cochrane review is doubtful about masks because of research limitations.  For examples, inconsistent mask wearing by populations and only 6 of 78 studies conducted during the pandemic.

Doctors still recommend vaccination for people who recover from infection.  Best protection combines both natural and vaccine immunity.

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/

2017; https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2017.21487

NBC, May 2020;

"Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Sunday on ABC that "there is enormous evidence ... I can tell you that there is a significant amount of evidence that this came from that laboratory in Wuhan." But he declined to detail the evidence, as did Trump when he was asked about it."

The above is the real reason for the denial today. If Trump Admin said it then go the opposite way no matter how obsurd. 

There is no actual evidence Alex Murdaugh killed his wife and son yet he was found guilty. Because it was so obvious!!! Same here.

@thirdperson

 "Secondly, not unusual for Wuhan lab to be located near a market.  Most major Chinese cities have coronavirus labs."

Haha!    No. They. Do. Not.  Certainly not at a high enough level to study them.  There are two BSL-4 labs in China.  Probably not many more total at other high levels.

https://www.globalbiolabs.org/map

If you are going to be a good BOT -- you need to BOT better. 

Nice find. Think I see four, Wuhan, Beijing, Harbin-way up NorthWest, and Kunming-way down South. You can also include BSL-3 labs as they too are allowed to study coronaviruses although I doubt they have the ability to fuse different viruses. Harbin is why up in NorthWest corner and has the only BSL-3  lab listed, along with a BSL-4 lab. Now these others could be under construction! Believe Wuhan was only BSL-4 in late 2019.

Circumstantial evidence is indirect evidence that by itself doesn't prove a fact.  Fact checker snopes report FBI and energy department assessments aren't based on scientific evidences but instead circumstantial arguments about safety conditions for potential lab leak.  However other government departments remain unconvinced about lab leak.  No evidence of SAR-cov-2 in any lab before the pandemic but strongest scientific evidences support natural origin.  Probability is one in 10 million that Wuhan market isn't the source of covid outbreak according to Worobey from University of Arizona.

Worobey, a Canadian earning a living in the United States, biggest mistake is that he bases his theory from data the Chinese Communist Party released and ignores The United States State Department Fact Sheet.

-China allowed no one from the West to inspect the lab and lab data. 

From The United States State Department, Jan., 2021; 

For more than a year, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has systematically prevented a transparent and thorough investigation of the COVID-19 pandemic’s origin, choosing instead to devote enormous resources to deceit and disinformation. Nearly two million people have died. Their families deserve to know the truth. Only through transparency can we learn what caused this pandemic and how to prevent the next one.

1. Illnesses inside the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV)

• The U.S. government has reason to believe that several researchers inside the WIV became sick in autumn 2019, before the first identified case of the outbreak, with symptoms consistent with both COVID-19 and common seasonal illnesses. This raises questions about the credibility of WIV senior researcher Shi Zhengli’s public claim that there was “zero infection” among the WIV’s staff and students of SARS-CoV-2 or SARS-related viruses.
• Accidental infections in labs have caused several previous virus outbreaks in China and elsewhere, including a 2004 SARS outbreak in Beijing that infected nine people, killing one.
• The CCP has prevented independent journalists, investigators, and global health authorities from interviewing researchers at the WIV, including those who were ill in the fall of 2019. Any credible inquiry into the origin of the virus must include interviews with these researchers and a full accounting of their previously unreported illness.

2. Research at the WIV:

• Starting in at least 2016 – and with no indication of a stop prior to the COVID-19 outbreak – WIV researchers conducted experiments involving RaTG13, the bat coronavirus identified by the WIV in January 2020 as its closest sample to SARS-CoV-2 (96.2% similar). The WIV became a focal point for international coronavirus research after the 2003 SARS outbreak and has since studied animals including mice, bats, and pangolins.
• The WIV has a published record of conducting “gain-of-function” research to engineer chimeric viruses. But the WIV has not been transparent or consistent about its record of studying viruses most similar to the COVID-19 virus, including “RaTG13,” which it sampled from a cave in Yunnan Province in 2013 after several miners died of SARS-like illness.
• WHO investigators must have access to the records of the WIV’s work on bat and other coronaviruses before the COVID-19 outbreak. As part of a thorough inquiry, they must have a full accounting of why the WIV altered and then removed online records of its work with RaTG13 and other viruses.
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It all comes down to if;

--You believe China over US Pentagon and balloon was only researching weather and not spying.

--You believe China over WHO and many others and China's COVID low death count is accurate.

--You believe China that allowed no one to throughly investigate COVID outbreak and where they said first cases discovered were actually where the outbreak began.

Correct again, Thirdperson

Opinions and guesses and speculation.  But no proof.

That's the bottom line.

Until **PROOF** is provided it's all just speculation, and a moot point at best.

I am not too sure how 'reliable' Worobey is on this.  He is very, very sketchy on HIV to me and others.  He parlayed his research and work on somewhat biased and misleading papers on HIV origin into heading his own lab.  

Whether this was all idealogical or political or not, it certainly seems financially-driven.

To dismiss the OPV theory for the bushmeat theory, or even the other theories.  Also, there are some questions about the dates and origins of some of this samples -- not to mention his extrapolations, a lot of which have no scientific data to back them up.

I am not saying he is not trustworthy, per se.  But he has a past history of being capable of choosing what to use or believe to support his narrative.

Correct again, Thirdperson

Opinions by various US officials is still the same thing ----> no proof.

That's always the bottom line.

Until **PROOF** is provided it's all just speculation, and a moot point at best.

 Obviously.

Until **PROOF** is provided it's all just speculation, and a moot point at best.

Just what the Chinese said after they refused examination of their lab and questioning of their lab techs. 

Problem is that weak lab leak theory requires a conspiracy or cover up and cannot explain scientific evidences.  Scientists consider evidences overwhelming for natural origin from two peer reviewed studies in Science journal.  Rasmussen study of two earliest virus variants suggest two separate spillovers at Wuhan market.  For this to begin as a lab leak, one person would have to be infected and visit the market.  Then another person would have to be infected with a different variant and visit the market a week later.  Each person leaving no trace of virus in lab or the rest of the city.  Such a scenario is highly unlikely relative to simpler explanation of natural origin of infections in the market.

Worobey study reveals evidences of Wuhan market as epicenter of SARS-cov-2 spreading to nearby community.  Unlike market, no evidence of SARS-cov-2 in Wuhan lab and surroundings.  The first 5-10 people infected in the world can be traced to the market.  Highly unlikely the first covid outbreak didn't occur at the market if there wasn't a source of the virus there.  There are no other explanations that fit the evidences.

Problem is that weak lab leak theory requires a conspiracy or cover up and cannot explain scientific evidences.  Scientists consider evidences overwhelming for natural origin from two peer reviewed studies in Science journal.  Rasmussen study of two earliest virus variants suggest two separate spillovers at Wuhan market.  For this to begin as a lab leak, one person would have to be infected and visit the market.  Then another person would have to be infected with a different variant and visit the market a week later.  Each person leaving no trace of virus in lab or the rest of the city.  Such a scenario is highly unlikely relative to simpler explanation of natural origin of infections in the market.

Worobey study reveals evidences of Wuhan market as epicenter of SARS-cov-2 spreading to nearby community.  Unlike market, no evidence of SARS-cov-2 in Wuhan lab and surroundings.  The first 5-10 people infected in the world can be traced to the market.  Highly unlikely the first covid outbreak didn't occur at the market if there wasn't a source of the virus there.  There are no other explanations that fit the evidences.

@thirdperson

 good to hear the opinion from an expert like you 

Worobey has no evidence, he only has that information the Chinese gave him. That first 5-10 people infected not substantiated. 

Both Rasmussen and Worobey taking the word of the Chinese and dismissing the word of The United States State Department. 

"The U.S. government has reason to believe that several researchers inside the WIV became sick in autumn 2019, before the first identified case of the outbreak, "

It's kinda sickening really

His evidence is the 'claim' that first case could be traced to the market.

Do these clowns have no clue that all cover-ups begin with a lie fed to them?

he's like a fish that just jumps in the boat

No proof either way.  And extremely unlikely there ever will be.

What we *DO* have **PROOF** of is that Donald "adolf" trump and his MAGA-republican morons did in fact downplay the seriousness of the virus and failed to adequately protect America from the viral scourge in favor of politics - setting up conditions that ultimately caused the premature deaths of over ONE MILLION Americans. 

Only a MAGA-moron dope argues otherwise... Fortunately there's nobody on this forum like that, but I see there are idiots like that on other social forums.

Only a cult following Dem-moron would believe there were bounties on American troops, would believe Trump was colluding with Russia, would believe get the vaccine and you never get COVID, would believe Jan 6th was an insurrection, would believe Capital Police were killed on Jan 6th, would believe hydroxy is deadly, and would believe The Chinese Communist Government over the United States Government.

Unfortunately, most on this forum are just that.

cant disagree with those facts       they should b obvious toanyone  

cant disagree with those facts       they should b obvious toanyone  

Former CDC Director....

The former head of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has said he was "sidelined" over his views on the origins of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Dr Robert Redfield was the key witness in a US congressional committee's first public hearing as it investigates how the coronavirus emerged.

He said he was cut out of early discussions on where the virus came from because he suspected a lab leak.

The House panel, which consists of nine Republicans and seven Democrats, has said it aims to stay above the fray of partisan politics.

He claimed he was "sidelined" at the beginning of the pandemic and excluded from meetings as his views were not in line with other major scientists like Dr Fauci, the de-facto face of the US pandemic response.

"It was told to me that they wanted a single narrative, and that I obviously had a different point of view," he said. "Science has debate and they squashed any debate."

Why does it "matter" to you "covid origin deniers" whether covid came from a lab in China or not? 

Seriously, I'm genuinely interested in why the narrative of "it was naturally occurring"  is so important for you to defend?  

The current Administration has already allowed the cat out of the bag in letting the story run in the MSM.  That normally would be your "permission" to help spread the regime's narrative preference; yet, you clowns are not on board yet (publicly). 

Why is this?  

I have my theories but would love to hear some sound reasoning of why this benefits you to keep denying???