East Palestine, Ohio

@UNIMAN

 Incineration is the most preferred and common method to dispose of vinyl chloride.

Democrat ran Michigan Wayne County Officials scream there's no way your (Biden run govt.) going to bury any of that East Palestine hazardous waste in our hazardous waste landfill!!!!! 

So our government apoligizes and looks elsewhere.

Oh OK. Sooooo what happens when you burn it? Let's Goggle that and see;

When burned or heated to a high enough temperature, vinyl chloride decomposes to hydrogen chloride, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and traces of phosgene. 

Exposure to phosgene may cause irritation to the eyes, dry burning throat, vomiting, cough, foamy sputum, breathing difficulty, and chest pain; 

Phosgene is extremely poisonous and was used as a chemical weapon during World War I, where it was responsible for 85,000 deaths. It is a highly potent pulmonary irritant and quickly filled enemy trenches due to it being a heavy gas.     (IT BUILDS UP ON THE GROUND AFTER BURNING)

Hydrogen chloride can irritate the skin, nose, eyes, throat, and larynx. 

Hydrogen chloride forms corrosive hydrochloric acid on contact with water found in body tissue. Inhalation of the fumes can cause coughing, choking, inflammation of the nose, throat, and upper respiratory tract, and in severe cases, pulmonary edema, circulatory system failure, and death. Skin contact can cause redness, pain, and severe chemical burns. Hydrogen chloride may cause severe burns to the eye and permanent eye damage.

The U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health have established occupational exposure limits for hydrogen chloride at a ceiling of 5 ppm (7 mg/m), and compiled extensive information on hydrogen chloride workplace safety concerns.

5 parts per million, that's nothing!

Oh OK. Sooooo what happens when you burn it? Let's Goggle that and see;

When burned or heated to a high enough temperature, vinyl chloride decomposes to hydrogen chloride, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and traces of phosgene. 

Exposure to phosgene may cause irritation to the eyes, dry burning throat, vomiting, cough, foamy sputum, breathing difficulty, and chest pain; 

Phosgene is extremely poisonous and was used as a chemical weapon during World War I, where it was responsible for 85,000 deaths. It is a highly potent pulmonary irritant and quickly filled enemy trenches due to it being a heavy gas.     (IT BUILDS UP ON THE GROUND AFTER BURNING)

Hydrogen chloride can irritate the skin, nose, eyes, throat, and larynx. 

Hydrogen chloride forms corrosive hydrochloric acid on contact with water found in body tissue. Inhalation of the fumes can cause coughing, choking, inflammation of the nose, throat, and upper respiratory tract, and in severe cases, pulmonary edema, circulatory system failure, and death. Skin contact can cause redness, pain, and severe chemical burns. Hydrogen chloride may cause severe burns to the eye and permanent eye damage.

The U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health have established occupational exposure limits for hydrogen chloride at a ceiling of 5 ppm (7 mg/m), and compiled extensive information on hydrogen chloride workplace safety concerns.

5 parts per million, that's nothing!

Phosgene gas is Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) at 2 ppm. 

OSHA has set the PEL (personal exposer limit) to 1/10 of 1 part per million.

Over 1,000,000 pounds of vinyl chloride burned.

And some say just another of 1000's of derailments. 

A very important piece of information is odor threshold. When can you know it's there?

Hydrogen chloride is a colorless, corrosive, nonflammable gas with a pungent odor (Budavari et al. 1989). Leonardos et al. (1969) determined the odor threshold of hydrogen chloride to be 10 ppm by using a standardized procedure, a trained odor panel, and high-purity hydrogen chloride; the odor was described by the panel as “pungent.

So the OSHA permissible limit is 5ppm and you don't know it's there until double that at 10ppm. That's dangerous!!!

Phosgene Gas; The odor threshold is reported to be between 0.5 and 1.5 parts per million (ppm), a value above or approaching AEGL-2 and AEGL-3 values, and tolerance to the pleasant odor of phosgene occurs rapidly.

The exposer limit of Phosgene is 0.1 ppm and you don't know it's there until at least 5 times that amount and up to 15 times the amount. VERY BAD!!!

So what the residents who returned say?

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/east-palestine-ohio-health-clinic-1234683289/

It’s been three weeks since the derailment resulted in a massive toxic spill and a faint chemical smell still fills the air. Local hospitals and clinics have treated hundreds of people for a wide range of ailments associated with the spill, including headache, respiratory problems, eye irritation, rashes, and dizziness.

In response to residents’ increasing frustration over their chase for straight answers, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine called for a new Health Assessment Clinic, which opened Tuesday at a downtown church.

   The first patient (noon sharp, appointment only) was Matthew Stokes, 43, a welder for CeramFab, a manufacturing company overlooking the train tracks. He was there for the initial clean-up effort, when, “they took one scoop of dirt, and the senior maintenance guy [with me] had to take a knee. I had to grab hold of something. I can’t explain it. I’ve never been exposed to toxic stuff.”

 His symptoms are typical, but he added, “Even my teeth hurt. I can’t breathe. I got the shit in me.” 

@UNIMAN

 So what we’re the readings after the burn?

 To prevent future overheating of wheel bearings, there should be heat detectors around wheel carriage of trains and electronically controlled faster brakes.  Ohio derailed trains didn't have these safety measures.  Previously, rail industry lobbied against safety measures when congress proposed a law to have them installed on trains because of costs.  Democrats propose improved safety regulations more than republicans.  Generally, democrats see problems and offer solutions.  In contrast, republicans ignore problems and oppose solutions.

It really doesn't matter and no one has made any reading public from what I see.

During my carrer for many years I was hazmat certified. Reponding to several situations including chlorine gas leaks in areas such as chemical rooms. The issue with chlorine is after all air readings show no chlorine it still sticks to surfaces, especially metal or anything moist. Touch it, disturb it, and acid burns can result. Chlorine also reacts with many substances and makes other nasty long lasting compounds. Hydrogen Chloride is Chlorine and Hydrogen, am sure the same applies here. Just measuring air quality not enough. 

Again, if you meant during or right after that would be good to know but there seems to be no transparency or testing by a third party such as the EPA. Hence the outrage.

As the Rollingstone article states just digging a scoop full sent two men to their knees. Yet the cleanup continues and disturbs toxins as residents are told to return.

So you wanna spew the propaganda.

Democrats ofen over-react to tragedies by throwing money and overburdened rules at a situation without performing a cost/benefit analysis. Driven by emotion rather than logic. Democrats try their best to blame Trump for a derailment that their proposed rules had no bearing on. Electronic brakes were never proposed for railcars carrying vinyl chloride rather crude oil and ethanol. Obvious to see attacks on fossil fuels was the motive disguised as safety rules. Congress never proposed heat detectors around wheel carriages and you used a play on words by lumping it with electronic brakes and then say congress proposed a law to have them installed. This is a common tatic to purposely mislead people who are not wise enough to see through it.

Looking at this derailment from a logical view;

https://www.designnews.com/industry/rail-car-wheel-bearing-monitoring-spotlight

Operator Norfolk Southern employs a system of hot box detectors on the Fort Wayne Line, where the accident happened. According to the Villanova Center for Analytics of Dynamic Systems, there are more than 6,000 wayside detectors in North America dedicated to identifying defective rail vehicle components, including wheels, bearings, and truck systems.

Most of these wayside monitoring systems are hot-bearing detectors, the school says in its Rail Vehicle Diagnostics report. These trackside sensors use non-contact infrared temperature sensors to monitor the bearing housing temperature as rail vehicles pass by. When the bearing temperature exceeds a threshold (typically 220° F (105° C) above ambient) the system triggers an alert.

Such a temperature buildup occurs only under severe faulty conditions, says Villanova. That was the case in this derailment, according to the NTSB. The board found that at milepost 79.9, the suspect bearing from the 23rd car had a recorded temperature of 38°F above ambient temperature. By milepost 69.01 when the train passed the next hot box detector, the bearing’s recorded temperature was 103°F above ambient. Twenty miles later while passing a third hot box detector, the suspect bearing’s temperature had rocketed to 253°F above ambient and the alarm sounded.

Norfolk Southern’s HBD alarm thresholds (above ambient temperature) and criteria for bearings are:

• ?Between 170°F and 200°F, warm bearing (non-critical); stop and inspect
• A difference between bearings on the same axle greater than or equal to 115°F (non-critical); stop and inspect
• Greater than 200°F (critical); set out railcar

Great information mainstream media doesn't seem to report.

Seems to me the bearing did not follow a typical failure pattern. It desintegrated more rapidly than expected. Am sure the National Rail Safety Regulator will study this accident and recommend changes to avert future failures such as this.

@UNIMAN

 So in other words...

Shit happens, right?

@UNIMAN

 Tit for tat retaliation or validation is not the rules of the site. So yes if you see someone YELLING at another member using LARGE font, please report it and let the site take care of any recourse. I love how you try to correlate when you leave out the most critical aspects of my reply. 

If in doubt about any rules being broken, report the event or send a PM.

Did report it, about 5 times.

I find it sickening that the same two constantly antagonize repeatedly. So I stay away.

And yeah, I understand yelling at a specific person, so I guess using 36pt font bolded and repeatedly quoting in a thread something like "YEAH CRAZY INSANE LIBS" is just fine. Wouldn't that make this a great forum.

I watch Smithsonian's Air Disasters, great show, amazing how they solve crashes and make corrections. Also have shipping disasters. And another is Engineerings Greatest Disasters on another channel. Learn a lot from these shows.

And let me take back my statement in post #63 where I said mainstream media was not reporting the details. They are! CNN has a great piece. Went as far as to saying vibration/acoustic sensors would have caught this much earlier..........

But Steve Ditmeyer, a former Federal Railroad Administration official, says equipping every rail car with on board sensors may not be financially feasible.

“What they’re proposing will work, but it’s very, very expensive,” Ditmeyer told CNN. “And one does have to take cost into consideration.”

It would take more than 12 million on board sensors, according to Tarawneh, to fully equip the roughly 1.6 million rail cars in service across North America.

Even with cost effective safety devices in place accidents can still happen. Here they had monitors about every twenty miles, protocols to be followed if high temps occured. They followed them and accident still happened. OK, what now? Maybe chain the data from each monitor and look for "rate of change"? I don't know, the govt safety people will figure it out. Throwing the kitchen sink at it not a logical choice. Investigate, identify weakness(es), and correct.

Sure it does, if it didn’t then there was no need for the EPA to set toxic levels for substances. And you are correct that Norfolk Southern has not released any info on that.

So, what thirdperson said is confirmed by what Ditmeyer said.So in the corporate world money trumps health and life.

Government officials chose the lesser of two evils.  Controlled release and burn of chemicals instead of uncontrolled explosion risk.

What I meant was it is more important to test soils, waters, surfaces and interior of homes before people return rather than just the atmospheric readings after the burn. Yes of course reading should be taken, recorded, and analyzed.

No, I disagree. "Steve Ditmeyer, a former Federal Railroad Administration official" this guy is former government official, he doesn't represent corporations. 

Do you want more inflation because of higher shipping costs by rail? And when other more cost effective methods could possibly get the job done? People die in car crashes every 16 minutes, should all cars be equiped with roll cages like nascar? Of course not.

A lot of unanswered questions there! Hopefully somebody asks and gets answers.

Most railroad tank cars are equiped with fusible plugs. They are a large strong bolt with a hole drilled down the center. This hole filled with a lead alloy that melts around 150F. If a tank car catches fire the plug will melt and allow pressurized gas or liquid to exit the tank car preventing the explosion. Each car should have plugs on all sides. Another thing is when tank cars heat up from fire water is sprayed on it to cool it, but no water being sprayed at this derailment????

One can only speculate at this point and here I go. Several different chemicals possibly leaking here. Besides vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate, ethylene glycol, isobutylene, and ethylhexyl acrylate.

So most plausible guess at this point is that one or more leaking chemicals were feeding a fire. Add water and chemicals would be further dispersed into waterways. (Just guessing) If fusible plugs melt more chemicals to feed fire and then other tank cars heat up causing a chain reaction. At some point, I am guessing, they decided fighting the fire was more harm than good. That desicion needs to be scrutinized IMO.

Another question is why so many leaking tank cars. They are built pretty tough to avoid punctures. How did they leak?

@wallstreetcappers

 Why does everything morph into a DEM vs REPUB retort with your side? My only point was that this train issue is not a political topic, when a FREE MARKET company screws up that is on the company, your side hates regulation and thinks the government has no place in the economy and especially to be involved with private companies. So when a public company craps on citizens, THEN it is blame the government time...sounds pretty stupid to me. 

It’s because it’s feeble-minded groupthink. Anything outside of the right wing echo chamber and you’re a librul! Lol right Wall Street? Based on your other posts you and I both appear to be centrists, but the lunatic fringe right wing can’t have centrists hanging around, it destroys their rhetoric.

Why are you Goggling? Personally, I use Google