To those making insults as the sole purpose of a reply, that is not going to be allowed and if the only purpose of a message is a member to member put down then erase the message before clicking the submit button.
It is curious to me having lived through decades of abuses towards equity and inclusion that some here seem to brush it completely aside as if it is something wrong or abused. This country has centuries of abuses towards gender and racial differences and sometimes humans who have not been given a fair opportunity do not get that opportunity unless there is a directive and a legally forced initiative...and even then they still will not and do not.
The flaws and extremes that you guys complaining about the DEI are clamoring about are NOTHING compared to the centuries of abuses those non-white male folk have gone through and we could completely reverse the narrative and make all white males unable to make a living and be forced to servitude for decades and it would not make up for what this country has done.
To see the narrative of eliminating the DEI by Trump is disgraceful, there needs to be a balance and an adjustment but if anything we need MORE DEI not less, more inclusion and acceptance and opportunity not less.
@wallstreetcappers
Very well stated
Trump is a tiki-torch supporting fascist and racist, as are an incredible number of his MAGA cult, so it follows that many MAGAS across the country are against DEI and supportive of maintaining "white privilege"
1
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
To those making insults as the sole purpose of a reply, that is not going to be allowed and if the only purpose of a message is a member to member put down then erase the message before clicking the submit button.
It is curious to me having lived through decades of abuses towards equity and inclusion that some here seem to brush it completely aside as if it is something wrong or abused. This country has centuries of abuses towards gender and racial differences and sometimes humans who have not been given a fair opportunity do not get that opportunity unless there is a directive and a legally forced initiative...and even then they still will not and do not.
The flaws and extremes that you guys complaining about the DEI are clamoring about are NOTHING compared to the centuries of abuses those non-white male folk have gone through and we could completely reverse the narrative and make all white males unable to make a living and be forced to servitude for decades and it would not make up for what this country has done.
To see the narrative of eliminating the DEI by Trump is disgraceful, there needs to be a balance and an adjustment but if anything we need MORE DEI not less, more inclusion and acceptance and opportunity not less.
@wallstreetcappers
Very well stated
Trump is a tiki-torch supporting fascist and racist, as are an incredible number of his MAGA cult, so it follows that many MAGAS across the country are against DEI and supportive of maintaining "white privilege"
Let's be honest! This thread epitomizes liberalism! When the Left can not utilize DEI. They pull the race card! DEI was much more important to the powers that be in LA than water in their fire hydrants! Just ask any honest fireman in LA who was forced to use a hose without water to put out a fire!
2
Let's be honest! This thread epitomizes liberalism! When the Left can not utilize DEI. They pull the race card! DEI was much more important to the powers that be in LA than water in their fire hydrants! Just ask any honest fireman in LA who was forced to use a hose without water to put out a fire!
You cannot quantify that you know the most qualified truly are.
Of course you can. It is done everyday.
Have a poor procedure done or a poorly built deck done. If you cannot judge a person's 'qualifications' then -- that is your problem and not theirs.
Then when you change what you think are 'quantifications' to just make a quota, everyone begins to question the qualifications and whether they are true --including the 'quota-ed' person themself.
1
@wallstreetcappers
You cannot quantify that you know the most qualified truly are.
Of course you can. It is done everyday.
Have a poor procedure done or a poorly built deck done. If you cannot judge a person's 'qualifications' then -- that is your problem and not theirs.
Then when you change what you think are 'quantifications' to just make a quota, everyone begins to question the qualifications and whether they are true --including the 'quota-ed' person themself.
The only way you could even remotely validate your theory is if every single person had the same exact opportunities and upbringings and THEN were sorted to be the "most qualified".
No sir. That is NOT the way it is done at all. Even the old Soviets did not do it this way. They would at least look for aptitude first.
You do not 'force' everyone to try out 'every' possible job.
You simply SELECT the most qualified form those that are interested in that job.
If someone shows an interest and is NOT qualified, yet -- then they need to go get the education and training. It is NOT a company's job to do that -- unless THEY chooses to do that.
EVERYONE who WANTS to be a doctor will NOT be as qualified as the top few -- just by definition. Some people of ANY group -- 'advantaged' or not -- will simply not have that particular aptitude.
This is NOT 'theory'; this is studied and observed fact.
0
@wallstreetcappers
The only way you could even remotely validate your theory is if every single person had the same exact opportunities and upbringings and THEN were sorted to be the "most qualified".
No sir. That is NOT the way it is done at all. Even the old Soviets did not do it this way. They would at least look for aptitude first.
You do not 'force' everyone to try out 'every' possible job.
You simply SELECT the most qualified form those that are interested in that job.
If someone shows an interest and is NOT qualified, yet -- then they need to go get the education and training. It is NOT a company's job to do that -- unless THEY chooses to do that.
EVERYONE who WANTS to be a doctor will NOT be as qualified as the top few -- just by definition. Some people of ANY group -- 'advantaged' or not -- will simply not have that particular aptitude.
This is NOT 'theory'; this is studied and observed fact.
I would say that the most qualified in society means the most favored and advantaged.
And that would be your opinion AND you would be wrong.
Just because someone takes the time and studies to do a certain job does NOT make them advantaged. Unless, the job is simply a job where 'smarts' are required and they are not smart. Or a 'skill' is required and they cannot perfect it no matter how hard they try.
It is silly to think everyone can do everything and anything -- IF they were ONLY given some advantage.
0
@wallstreetcappers
I would say that the most qualified in society means the most favored and advantaged.
And that would be your opinion AND you would be wrong.
Just because someone takes the time and studies to do a certain job does NOT make them advantaged. Unless, the job is simply a job where 'smarts' are required and they are not smart. Or a 'skill' is required and they cannot perfect it no matter how hard they try.
It is silly to think everyone can do everything and anything -- IF they were ONLY given some advantage.
The DEI directive could take 100 years to truly be understood and quantified yet some of you want to bemoan this being in existence for a few years while the minority in the US, white men have been given advantage and unfair opportunity for centuries.
I am a white man btw as if that isnt blatantly obvious before.
It certainly did not take 100 years for the companies that have been dumping it to find out that it was a disaster.
0
@wallstreetcappers
The DEI directive could take 100 years to truly be understood and quantified yet some of you want to bemoan this being in existence for a few years while the minority in the US, white men have been given advantage and unfair opportunity for centuries.
I am a white man btw as if that isnt blatantly obvious before.
It certainly did not take 100 years for the companies that have been dumping it to find out that it was a disaster.
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers I do not think he meant it as an insult. I think he was pointing out what it seemed as fairly obvious. You can try it out for yourself. Just go type it in and see what you get. I certainly do not think he meant it as an insult. Confused here are we talking about me and chat gpt?
I assume so.
0
Quote Originally Posted by unplucked_gem:
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers I do not think he meant it as an insult. I think he was pointing out what it seemed as fairly obvious. You can try it out for yourself. Just go type it in and see what you get. I certainly do not think he meant it as an insult. Confused here are we talking about me and chat gpt?
Let's be honest! This thread epitomizes liberalism! When the Left can not utilize DEI. They pull the race card! DEI was much more important to the powers that be in LA than water in their fire hydrants! Just ask any honest fireman in LA who was forced to use a hose without water to put out a fire!
To be fair, I think it is about far more than race. It started slowly. But gathered a lot of steam to include far more than simply race. You can almost understand it if that were the only issue.
It has become a situation where even if 2-3 candidates of the same race and the same gender are the ONLY applicants -- a convoluted subset is now the determining factor between the 3 candidates.
0
@sundance
Quote Originally Posted by sundance:
Let's be honest! This thread epitomizes liberalism! When the Left can not utilize DEI. They pull the race card! DEI was much more important to the powers that be in LA than water in their fire hydrants! Just ask any honest fireman in LA who was forced to use a hose without water to put out a fire!
To be fair, I think it is about far more than race. It started slowly. But gathered a lot of steam to include far more than simply race. You can almost understand it if that were the only issue.
It has become a situation where even if 2-3 candidates of the same race and the same gender are the ONLY applicants -- a convoluted subset is now the determining factor between the 3 candidates.
We are being instructed to stay on the TOPIC .....However the posted Topic is not about DEI.....or decades of abuses to minorities.. It's about a court that has ordered Biden to stop his criminal behavior. Topic drift ,,,,like what you see on page #8 contributes to member to member put downs ..and should not be encouraged..especially by Covers leaders.
Fair enough and good point. I certainly helped jump on the topic change.
But this is the only forum thread where that discussion is available. I just felt like it was partly Biden and his administration that encouraged this debacle. For sure it should be 'embarrassing for Biden supporters'.
But we can move away from this. It is just a silly 'woke' policy that does not make sense to me.
Carry on.
0
@SarasotaSlim
Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:
We are being instructed to stay on the TOPIC .....However the posted Topic is not about DEI.....or decades of abuses to minorities.. It's about a court that has ordered Biden to stop his criminal behavior. Topic drift ,,,,like what you see on page #8 contributes to member to member put downs ..and should not be encouraged..especially by Covers leaders.
Fair enough and good point. I certainly helped jump on the topic change.
But this is the only forum thread where that discussion is available. I just felt like it was partly Biden and his administration that encouraged this debacle. For sure it should be 'embarrassing for Biden supporters'.
But we can move away from this. It is just a silly 'woke' policy that does not make sense to me.
@wallstreetcappers Those who you feel are most qualified OFTEN times have advantages that the majority does not And...? A company or business is not in the business of making everyone equal. You are not in the business of having your heart worked on, your plane flown, or even you deck built by someone that is not the best qualified. You would not do it in your personal life, so why 'force' someone else to do it. So, what if someone has advantages? There are plenty that have this same EXACT advantages but CANNOT do the job. Do you hire them anyway? Just to be fair to an incompetent person? Then there are plenary of folks that do not have the 'advantages', yet still become QUALIFIED. It is very lazy logic to say some folks have advantages. Life simply is not fair, and you cannot 'force' it to be fair.
Not sure I can have a conversation with someone who says these words. When life is unfair your answer is to just say it is reality and that is how it goes. Well congrats being one of the minority who has no understanding or comprehension of the oppression put on the majority.
1
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:
@wallstreetcappers Those who you feel are most qualified OFTEN times have advantages that the majority does not And...? A company or business is not in the business of making everyone equal. You are not in the business of having your heart worked on, your plane flown, or even you deck built by someone that is not the best qualified. You would not do it in your personal life, so why 'force' someone else to do it. So, what if someone has advantages? There are plenty that have this same EXACT advantages but CANNOT do the job. Do you hire them anyway? Just to be fair to an incompetent person? Then there are plenary of folks that do not have the 'advantages', yet still become QUALIFIED. It is very lazy logic to say some folks have advantages. Life simply is not fair, and you cannot 'force' it to be fair.
Not sure I can have a conversation with someone who says these words. When life is unfair your answer is to just say it is reality and that is how it goes. Well congrats being one of the minority who has no understanding or comprehension of the oppression put on the majority.
@wallstreetcappers I would say that the most qualified in society means the most favored and advantaged. And that would be your opinion AND you would be wrong. Just because someone takes the time and studies to do a certain job does NOT make them advantaged. Unless, the job is simply a job where 'smarts' are required and they are not smart. Or a 'skill' is required and they cannot perfect it no matter how hard they try. It is silly to think everyone can do everything and anything -- IF they were ONLY given some advantage.
Again I think we should not converse given your approach to reality with comments like this. The issue is not time and effort, skill is developed from ability, effort and opportunity and yet you make it seem like those who lack skill are as you said lazy. How can you say a concept is wrong when you cannot validate it or prove it wrong? If you were not the white male minority and had to make choices which took opportunity from you, do you think your path in life would be the same?
Acknowledging the faults and flaws of oppression is the first step to making an impact and change...you are not even at the first step.
2
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:
@wallstreetcappers I would say that the most qualified in society means the most favored and advantaged. And that would be your opinion AND you would be wrong. Just because someone takes the time and studies to do a certain job does NOT make them advantaged. Unless, the job is simply a job where 'smarts' are required and they are not smart. Or a 'skill' is required and they cannot perfect it no matter how hard they try. It is silly to think everyone can do everything and anything -- IF they were ONLY given some advantage.
Again I think we should not converse given your approach to reality with comments like this. The issue is not time and effort, skill is developed from ability, effort and opportunity and yet you make it seem like those who lack skill are as you said lazy. How can you say a concept is wrong when you cannot validate it or prove it wrong? If you were not the white male minority and had to make choices which took opportunity from you, do you think your path in life would be the same?
Acknowledging the faults and flaws of oppression is the first step to making an impact and change...you are not even at the first step.
@SarasotaSlim Give it a rest guy...that was not at all what I said. Why must you be a pain like this on such a regular basis?
Well guy, this is what your side does ....denies what was said ..and blames it on the other person. .when I took the words directly from your own post...
..and can you PLEASE layoff the Moderator to member put downs...it sets a bad example..
1
@wallstreetcappers
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
@SarasotaSlim Give it a rest guy...that was not at all what I said. Why must you be a pain like this on such a regular basis?
Well guy, this is what your side does ....denies what was said ..and blames it on the other person. .when I took the words directly from your own post...
..and can you PLEASE layoff the Moderator to member put downs...it sets a bad example..
Is guy an insult to you? I do not appreciate you taking a dig at me by misquoting what I DIDNT say to try and make yet another point. Your victim card isnt working today and it has never worked. I did not ask for your commentary about member to member digs, your comment was completely unnecessary and inappropriate especially since you were not part of the conversation and I will never ask for your opinion.
You are also welcome to avoid member to member digs, so since you interjected yourself I will for the multiple time say this same thing to you...again and again.
1
@SarasotaSlim
Is guy an insult to you? I do not appreciate you taking a dig at me by misquoting what I DIDNT say to try and make yet another point. Your victim card isnt working today and it has never worked. I did not ask for your commentary about member to member digs, your comment was completely unnecessary and inappropriate especially since you were not part of the conversation and I will never ask for your opinion.
You are also welcome to avoid member to member digs, so since you interjected yourself I will for the multiple time say this same thing to you...again and again.
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers Those who you feel are most qualified OFTEN times have advantages that the majority does not And...? A company or business is not in the business of making everyone equal. You are not in the business of having your heart worked on, your plane flown, or even you deck built by someone that is not the best qualified. You would not do it in your personal life, so why 'force' someone else to do it. So, what if someone has advantages? There are plenty that have this same EXACT advantages but CANNOT do the job. Do you hire them anyway? Just to be fair to an incompetent person? Then there are plenary of folks that do not have the 'advantages', yet still become QUALIFIED. It is very lazy logic to say some folks have advantages. Life simply is not fair, and you cannot 'force' it to be fair. Not sure I can have a conversation with someone who says these words. When life is unfair your answer is to just say it is reality and that is how it goes. Well congrats being one of the minority who has no understanding or comprehension of the oppression put on the majority.
Nope. I am simply saying it is lazy logic to say it is unfair and therefore, we need two make it fair by quotaing up every occupation.\
Not so easy to have a conversation with someone that cannot see that some folks are simply better at some things than others.
Life is NOT fair. If you are 2o lbs overweight and slow -- you will NEVER be an elite sprinter. But should we still have that subset as a part because they are disadvantaged.
If you cannot drive a nail or conceptualize -- can you really be as good as a deck-builder that can.
Can you really be a great engineer -- if you are pathetic at math.
No sir-- give me the best qualified -- EVERY time.
3
@wallstreetcappers
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22: @wallstreetcappers Those who you feel are most qualified OFTEN times have advantages that the majority does not And...? A company or business is not in the business of making everyone equal. You are not in the business of having your heart worked on, your plane flown, or even you deck built by someone that is not the best qualified. You would not do it in your personal life, so why 'force' someone else to do it. So, what if someone has advantages? There are plenty that have this same EXACT advantages but CANNOT do the job. Do you hire them anyway? Just to be fair to an incompetent person? Then there are plenary of folks that do not have the 'advantages', yet still become QUALIFIED. It is very lazy logic to say some folks have advantages. Life simply is not fair, and you cannot 'force' it to be fair. Not sure I can have a conversation with someone who says these words. When life is unfair your answer is to just say it is reality and that is how it goes. Well congrats being one of the minority who has no understanding or comprehension of the oppression put on the majority.
Nope. I am simply saying it is lazy logic to say it is unfair and therefore, we need two make it fair by quotaing up every occupation.\
Not so easy to have a conversation with someone that cannot see that some folks are simply better at some things than others.
Life is NOT fair. If you are 2o lbs overweight and slow -- you will NEVER be an elite sprinter. But should we still have that subset as a part because they are disadvantaged.
If you cannot drive a nail or conceptualize -- can you really be as good as a deck-builder that can.
Can you really be a great engineer -- if you are pathetic at math.
No sir-- give me the best qualified -- EVERY time.
The issue is not time and effort, skill is developed from ability, effort and opportunity and yet you make it seem like those who lack skill are as you said lazy.
Nonsense. Go try as you might at something you have no aptitude or ability to do and you will NEVER be as qualified as someone that can do it well and proven that.
0
@wallstreetcappers
The issue is not time and effort, skill is developed from ability, effort and opportunity and yet you make it seem like those who lack skill are as you said lazy.
Nonsense. Go try as you might at something you have no aptitude or ability to do and you will NEVER be as qualified as someone that can do it well and proven that.
The DEI needing to be in existence is the reality of the foundation society has been built on by pushing down the true majority to enrich and benefit the true minority.
What 'true majority' has been 'pushed down'? And how?
Still waiting on your explanation of this.
0
@wallstreetcappers
The DEI needing to be in existence is the reality of the foundation society has been built on by pushing down the true majority to enrich and benefit the true minority.
What 'true majority' has been 'pushed down'? And how?
There are myths about affirmative hiring. For examples, quota system, favoring certain groups, unfair to merit and lowering of standards. In reality, affirmative action treats everyone equally and ensures the most qualified job candidates are hired. Case against affirmative action is weak. Polls show most Americans support affirmative action.
I went through Affirmative Action in 1970's and 80's. For one job I took a civil service test along with 114 others. Finished 4th. There were three job openings and I never even got interviewed as three minorities were hired. Within six months two had quit and then I was interviewed and got my job. Ten yrs later in same organization interviewed for supervisor, no test, just interview questions. I was selected by the manager and then department head. Affirmative action director decided the candidate who finished third, a minority who did not have the minimum qualifications desired and never worked in the sector he would supervise got the job. My manager encouraged me to leave the organization and find a place where merit counted. I did and was hired immediately as a supervisor. Stayed there until I retired.
Before the supervisor interview Governor Blanchard of Michigan annouced the state was hiring 114 Conservation Officers. I applied and took a lengthly civil service exam that I studied for. Felt good about the test but never received a call after a year and half. While duck hunting one day ran into an officer and asked him what was happening with all those hires? He laughed and said; "Your a white male so you need to score at least 97% to be considered. Minorities and females only need to score 70%." Six months later they called me for a State Trooper interview. I declined as I now was working as a supervisor for an org that promoted based on merit.
Sorry Third but I think your post is full of crap!
2
Quote Originally Posted by thirdperson:
There are myths about affirmative hiring. For examples, quota system, favoring certain groups, unfair to merit and lowering of standards. In reality, affirmative action treats everyone equally and ensures the most qualified job candidates are hired. Case against affirmative action is weak. Polls show most Americans support affirmative action.
I went through Affirmative Action in 1970's and 80's. For one job I took a civil service test along with 114 others. Finished 4th. There were three job openings and I never even got interviewed as three minorities were hired. Within six months two had quit and then I was interviewed and got my job. Ten yrs later in same organization interviewed for supervisor, no test, just interview questions. I was selected by the manager and then department head. Affirmative action director decided the candidate who finished third, a minority who did not have the minimum qualifications desired and never worked in the sector he would supervise got the job. My manager encouraged me to leave the organization and find a place where merit counted. I did and was hired immediately as a supervisor. Stayed there until I retired.
Before the supervisor interview Governor Blanchard of Michigan annouced the state was hiring 114 Conservation Officers. I applied and took a lengthly civil service exam that I studied for. Felt good about the test but never received a call after a year and half. While duck hunting one day ran into an officer and asked him what was happening with all those hires? He laughed and said; "Your a white male so you need to score at least 97% to be considered. Minorities and females only need to score 70%." Six months later they called me for a State Trooper interview. I declined as I now was working as a supervisor for an org that promoted based on merit.
Sorry Third but I think your post is full of crap!
Acknowledging the faults and flaws of oppression is the first step to making an impact and change...you are not even at the first step.
This is where you are wrong also.
This is a separate issue.
Fix that. They have been working on that.
Most anyone that wants to get educated in a field and has the aptitude can pretty mush do it. If you are a minority, you get all sorts of advantages to even this playing field out to get educated. BUT what if you do NOT have an aptitude or are no good at it. Then you should NOT get advantage over someone that does.
Now hiring people that are NOT as qualified is ANOTHER issue; and a quite silly one.
0
@wallstreetcappers
Acknowledging the faults and flaws of oppression is the first step to making an impact and change...you are not even at the first step.
This is where you are wrong also.
This is a separate issue.
Fix that. They have been working on that.
Most anyone that wants to get educated in a field and has the aptitude can pretty mush do it. If you are a minority, you get all sorts of advantages to even this playing field out to get educated. BUT what if you do NOT have an aptitude or are no good at it. Then you should NOT get advantage over someone that does.
Now hiring people that are NOT as qualified is ANOTHER issue; and a quite silly one.
@SarasotaSlim Is guy an insult to you? I do not appreciate you taking a dig at me by misquoting what I DIDNT say to try and make yet another point. Your victim card isnt working today and it has never worked. I did not ask for your commentary about member to member digs, your comment was completely unnecessary and inappropriate especially since you were not part of the conversation and I will never ask for your opinion. You are also welcome to avoid member to member digs, so since you interjected yourself I will for the multiple time say this same thing to you...again and again.
Hell no..guy is not an insult .. However saying Why must you be a pain like this on such a regular basis? Defiantly is a direct insult ..along with saying you will never ask for my opinion is another insult. But, since you are sitting in the bully pulpit ..I see you feel free to demean and belittle some members ...who cannot answer you back in kind..
Now, tell me specifically were did I misquoted you?
Also ,since when did a member have to request permission to comment in a thread conversation.?
3
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:
@SarasotaSlim Is guy an insult to you? I do not appreciate you taking a dig at me by misquoting what I DIDNT say to try and make yet another point. Your victim card isnt working today and it has never worked. I did not ask for your commentary about member to member digs, your comment was completely unnecessary and inappropriate especially since you were not part of the conversation and I will never ask for your opinion. You are also welcome to avoid member to member digs, so since you interjected yourself I will for the multiple time say this same thing to you...again and again.
Hell no..guy is not an insult .. However saying Why must you be a pain like this on such a regular basis? Defiantly is a direct insult ..along with saying you will never ask for my opinion is another insult. But, since you are sitting in the bully pulpit ..I see you feel free to demean and belittle some members ...who cannot answer you back in kind..
Now, tell me specifically were did I misquoted you?
Also ,since when did a member have to request permission to comment in a thread conversation.?
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