I AM NOT ADVOCATING FLAT BETTING. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS MORE PROFITABLE.
But Van, this is the bottom line. We all want to know which method of betting will net you more units over the long haul. For me, unless my numbers drastically change over time, the wrong method is flat betting. And if it doesn't work for me, I assume there are many others it doesn't work for either. I believe this thread started with the argument that flat betting helps eliminate unnecessary losses over the long haul so this seems to be the bare bones of the discussion.
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I AM NOT ADVOCATING FLAT BETTING. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS MORE PROFITABLE.
But Van, this is the bottom line. We all want to know which method of betting will net you more units over the long haul. For me, unless my numbers drastically change over time, the wrong method is flat betting. And if it doesn't work for me, I assume there are many others it doesn't work for either. I believe this thread started with the argument that flat betting helps eliminate unnecessary losses over the long haul so this seems to be the bare bones of the discussion.
That said, just to clarify what I've shown to the rest, if a bettor
KNOWS he will do better betting ML underdogs than ML favorites in the
long run, then he would be better off not flat-betting, but no bettors
KNOW this, and flat betting caters to the averages.
But Vanzack is condemning this as false. So now we have one's mathematical word vs. another's.
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That said, just to clarify what I've shown to the rest, if a bettor
KNOWS he will do better betting ML underdogs than ML favorites in the
long run, then he would be better off not flat-betting, but no bettors
KNOW this, and flat betting caters to the averages.
But Vanzack is condemning this as false. So now we have one's mathematical word vs. another's.
That said, just to clarify what I've shown to the rest, if a bettor KNOWS he will do better betting ML underdogs than ML favorites in the long run, then he would be better off not flat-betting, but no bettors KNOW this, and flat betting caters to the averages.
But Vanzack is condemning this as false. So now we have one's mathematical word vs. another's.
No, he realized it wasn't false and stated it in the post directly after that he misread my point.
Also, you say "there are many others this doesn't work for either". That's not true. There are very few bettors who are hitting underdogs at an 18% higher rate than they should be. Most hit at about exactly the rate the odds dictate. In the long run, I assure you that your percentage will drop, and it will approach the percentage that the odds dictate. You may still be up a few percentages, but 18 percent is ridiculous. Honestly, even you are probably better off flat betting starting now, as you can't keep up a 16-10 pace on underdogs. If you think you can, then don't take my advice. But when the numbers settle down, you'll be greatful you started flat betting.
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Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:
That said, just to clarify what I've shown to the rest, if a bettor KNOWS he will do better betting ML underdogs than ML favorites in the long run, then he would be better off not flat-betting, but no bettors KNOW this, and flat betting caters to the averages.
But Vanzack is condemning this as false. So now we have one's mathematical word vs. another's.
No, he realized it wasn't false and stated it in the post directly after that he misread my point.
Also, you say "there are many others this doesn't work for either". That's not true. There are very few bettors who are hitting underdogs at an 18% higher rate than they should be. Most hit at about exactly the rate the odds dictate. In the long run, I assure you that your percentage will drop, and it will approach the percentage that the odds dictate. You may still be up a few percentages, but 18 percent is ridiculous. Honestly, even you are probably better off flat betting starting now, as you can't keep up a 16-10 pace on underdogs. If you think you can, then don't take my advice. But when the numbers settle down, you'll be greatful you started flat betting.
Lawstyle -- I will revisit this analysis a couple of months from now to see where we stand, but I cannot, in good faith, change to flat betting when, after putting it to practical application (after all, this is what it's all about), it has netted me fewer units overall.
If, when I revisit it, things have veered more to average and if flat betting from today until 2 months from now would have done better than my method, then I will happily preach to everyone how flat betting is the winner.
But we are not at this point. I am very confident in my method of creating lines and I do not have any reason to believe my success or results will drastically change. And if they don't, then flat betting is a method by which I would consciously limit my potential winnings.
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Lawstyle -- I will revisit this analysis a couple of months from now to see where we stand, but I cannot, in good faith, change to flat betting when, after putting it to practical application (after all, this is what it's all about), it has netted me fewer units overall.
If, when I revisit it, things have veered more to average and if flat betting from today until 2 months from now would have done better than my method, then I will happily preach to everyone how flat betting is the winner.
But we are not at this point. I am very confident in my method of creating lines and I do not have any reason to believe my success or results will drastically change. And if they don't, then flat betting is a method by which I would consciously limit my potential winnings.
Ok I have to chime in here....one of the most confusing debates I've ever seen in these threads.
Lanastasis, first of all...the debate you are having isn't about flat betting, its about which form of flat betting is best. By risking one unit on each play you are using your own method of flat betting. Someone who does not flat bet at all will bet 200 a couple plays, then 500 on the play they 'really like' then chase a little with some 800 plays...get lucky and chill back with some 200 plays, then get drunk and chase with a 2000 play. Its all over the map.
The initial point of this thread was vanzack suggesting the way most people are flat betting isn't truly flat betting. And he is 100% correct. You may be up more doing it your way, but as someone said above you likely have an overall higher units risked. You are risking 1 unit on every play, while this method vanzack is suggesting will often be risking less than 1 unit. This is where it depends if you have played more dogs or faves. If you played more dogs, then you have definitely risked more overall units your way than van's way. Just don't forget, I think both are forms of flat betting, even if van will say this is the only true way to flat bet. The real point of flat betting for most people is to not bet 100 one game and then 1000 the next...thats the first step.
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Ok I have to chime in here....one of the most confusing debates I've ever seen in these threads.
Lanastasis, first of all...the debate you are having isn't about flat betting, its about which form of flat betting is best. By risking one unit on each play you are using your own method of flat betting. Someone who does not flat bet at all will bet 200 a couple plays, then 500 on the play they 'really like' then chase a little with some 800 plays...get lucky and chill back with some 200 plays, then get drunk and chase with a 2000 play. Its all over the map.
The initial point of this thread was vanzack suggesting the way most people are flat betting isn't truly flat betting. And he is 100% correct. You may be up more doing it your way, but as someone said above you likely have an overall higher units risked. You are risking 1 unit on every play, while this method vanzack is suggesting will often be risking less than 1 unit. This is where it depends if you have played more dogs or faves. If you played more dogs, then you have definitely risked more overall units your way than van's way. Just don't forget, I think both are forms of flat betting, even if van will say this is the only true way to flat bet. The real point of flat betting for most people is to not bet 100 one game and then 1000 the next...thats the first step.
are you risking 1 unit on every play? meaning 1 unit to win 1.1 on a +110 dog and 1 unit to win .9091 on a -110 fave....or is it 1 to win 1.1 and 1.1 to win 1 respectively? If its the latter, then your amount risked would be a lot higher. And dont get me wrong, if you are hitting at a winning % for the avg odds you lay, then obviously the more you risk the more you will make as far as total profit goes.
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Lana...I am confused by skimming this stuff....
are you risking 1 unit on every play? meaning 1 unit to win 1.1 on a +110 dog and 1 unit to win .9091 on a -110 fave....or is it 1 to win 1.1 and 1.1 to win 1 respectively? If its the latter, then your amount risked would be a lot higher. And dont get me wrong, if you are hitting at a winning % for the avg odds you lay, then obviously the more you risk the more you will make as far as total profit goes.
Lunchbox, I agree with your premise. However, Vanzack does not. He is of the opinion that there is only one way to flatbet: the way he suggests.
All I care about is results and my results tell me to avoid flat betting right now.
As for your second post and question, I always risk the same unit (1 or 2) on every bet. Every bet I make risks the same amount. It does not risk to win the same amount.
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Lunchbox, I agree with your premise. However, Vanzack does not. He is of the opinion that there is only one way to flatbet: the way he suggests.
All I care about is results and my results tell me to avoid flat betting right now.
As for your second post and question, I always risk the same unit (1 or 2) on every bet. Every bet I make risks the same amount. It does not risk to win the same amount.
I went from commenting on the way I proposed to flat bet in the first post, to commenting on Lans way of betting later in the thread and after digesting it I think I have misspoke.
The bottom line is exactly what Lunchbox states - and my original point is this:
1. If you define flat betting as having the same risk/reward for every bet, then my original post is how to do it.
If Lan makes him more money, or some other way makes someone else more money - great - Im not trying to persuade anyone differently.
I am simply stating that most who stake 1 unit per bet regardless of line think they are flat betting, when they are actually not flat betting and probably havent done the analysis that Lan has done to show that his way is better for him.
So I withdraw my disagreements because I think they were based on my way of flat betting instead of understanding it under the context of what Lan and Law were saying - but I still hold to my original post in this thread - if you want to flat bet that is the way to do it - and if you are doing it differently I think you should know why you are doing it that way.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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You know - I am now officially confused.
I went from commenting on the way I proposed to flat bet in the first post, to commenting on Lans way of betting later in the thread and after digesting it I think I have misspoke.
The bottom line is exactly what Lunchbox states - and my original point is this:
1. If you define flat betting as having the same risk/reward for every bet, then my original post is how to do it.
If Lan makes him more money, or some other way makes someone else more money - great - Im not trying to persuade anyone differently.
I am simply stating that most who stake 1 unit per bet regardless of line think they are flat betting, when they are actually not flat betting and probably havent done the analysis that Lan has done to show that his way is better for him.
So I withdraw my disagreements because I think they were based on my way of flat betting instead of understanding it under the context of what Lan and Law were saying - but I still hold to my original post in this thread - if you want to flat bet that is the way to do it - and if you are doing it differently I think you should know why you are doing it that way.
I went from commenting on the way I proposed to flat bet in the first post, to commenting on Lans way of betting later in the thread and after digesting it I think I have misspoke.
The bottom line is exactly what Lunchbox states - and my original point is this:
1. If you define flat betting as having the same risk/reward for every bet, then my original post is how to do it.
If Lan makes him more money, or some other way makes someone else more money - great - Im not trying to persuade anyone differently.
I am simply stating that most who stake 1 unit per bet regardless of line think they are flat betting, when they are actually not flat betting and probably havent done the analysis that Lan has done to show that his way is better for him.
So I withdraw my disagreements because I think they were based on my way of flat betting instead of understanding it under the context of what Lan and Law were saying - but I still hold to my original post in this thread - if you want to flat bet that is the way to do it - and if you are doing it differently I think you should know why you are doing it that way.
I think we have finally reached common ground.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
You know - I am now officially confused.
I went from commenting on the way I proposed to flat bet in the first post, to commenting on Lans way of betting later in the thread and after digesting it I think I have misspoke.
The bottom line is exactly what Lunchbox states - and my original point is this:
1. If you define flat betting as having the same risk/reward for every bet, then my original post is how to do it.
If Lan makes him more money, or some other way makes someone else more money - great - Im not trying to persuade anyone differently.
I am simply stating that most who stake 1 unit per bet regardless of line think they are flat betting, when they are actually not flat betting and probably havent done the analysis that Lan has done to show that his way is better for him.
So I withdraw my disagreements because I think they were based on my way of flat betting instead of understanding it under the context of what Lan and Law were saying - but I still hold to my original post in this thread - if you want to flat bet that is the way to do it - and if you are doing it differently I think you should know why you are doing it that way.
I went from commenting on the way I proposed to flat bet in the first post, to commenting on Lans way of betting later in the thread and after digesting it I think I have misspoke.
The bottom line is exactly what Lunchbox states - and my original point is this:
1. If you define flat betting as having the same risk/reward for every bet, then my original post is how to do it.
If Lan makes him more money, or some other way makes someone else more money - great - Im not trying to persuade anyone differently.
I am simply stating that most who stake 1 unit per bet regardless of line think they are flat betting, when they are actually not flat betting and probably havent done the analysis that Lan has done to show that his way is better for him.
So I withdraw my disagreements because I think they were based on my way of flat betting instead of understanding it under the context of what Lan and Law were saying - but I still hold to my original post in this thread - if you want to flat bet that is the way to do it - and if you are doing it differently I think you should know why you are doing it that way.
I have been following this post with interest, as I play 1 (rarely 2) unit per game, normally on underdogs- unless I have completely missed the point here, VanZack is not trying to persuade anyone to bet "his" way, just to use the term "flat bet" accurately- please correct me if I am wrong here-
In the end no matter how you do it, you still have to handicap properly- no wagering / money management system described can overcome poor picks.
Just my 2 cents.
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Quote Originally Posted by vanzack:
You know - I am now officially confused.
I went from commenting on the way I proposed to flat bet in the first post, to commenting on Lans way of betting later in the thread and after digesting it I think I have misspoke.
The bottom line is exactly what Lunchbox states - and my original point is this:
1. If you define flat betting as having the same risk/reward for every bet, then my original post is how to do it.
If Lan makes him more money, or some other way makes someone else more money - great - Im not trying to persuade anyone differently.
I am simply stating that most who stake 1 unit per bet regardless of line think they are flat betting, when they are actually not flat betting and probably havent done the analysis that Lan has done to show that his way is better for him.
So I withdraw my disagreements because I think they were based on my way of flat betting instead of understanding it under the context of what Lan and Law were saying - but I still hold to my original post in this thread - if you want to flat bet that is the way to do it - and if you are doing it differently I think you should know why you are doing it that way.
I have been following this post with interest, as I play 1 (rarely 2) unit per game, normally on underdogs- unless I have completely missed the point here, VanZack is not trying to persuade anyone to bet "his" way, just to use the term "flat bet" accurately- please correct me if I am wrong here-
In the end no matter how you do it, you still have to handicap properly- no wagering / money management system described can overcome poor picks.
Vanzack you are right - that in order to truly flat bet you must use the way you have proposed... and that, I believe, is the ONLY point you were trying to make. You did not say it is more or less profitable than other methods just that it is flat betting and allows you to weight all games the same.
It can be more profitable to wager other ways such as lanastasis does, but you have to be able to hit your plays that are more "important" as vanzack puts it, above a certain threshold, whether they are big dogs or high favs
I think that sums it up
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Vanzack you are right - that in order to truly flat bet you must use the way you have proposed... and that, I believe, is the ONLY point you were trying to make. You did not say it is more or less profitable than other methods just that it is flat betting and allows you to weight all games the same.
It can be more profitable to wager other ways such as lanastasis does, but you have to be able to hit your plays that are more "important" as vanzack puts it, above a certain threshold, whether they are big dogs or high favs
Vanzack you are right - that in order to truly flat bet you must use the way you have proposed... and that, I believe, is the ONLY point you were trying to make. You did not say it is more or less profitable than other methods just that it is flat betting and allows you to weight all games the same.
It can be more profitable to wager other ways such as lanastasis does, but you have to be able to hit your plays that are more "important" as vanzack puts it, above a certain threshold, whether they are big dogs or high favs
I think that sums it up
Thank you.
You said what I was unable to say in 250 posts and 2 days.
Word for word I agree.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by popinjay:
Vanzack you are right - that in order to truly flat bet you must use the way you have proposed... and that, I believe, is the ONLY point you were trying to make. You did not say it is more or less profitable than other methods just that it is flat betting and allows you to weight all games the same.
It can be more profitable to wager other ways such as lanastasis does, but you have to be able to hit your plays that are more "important" as vanzack puts it, above a certain threshold, whether they are big dogs or high favs
I think that sums it up
Thank you.
You said what I was unable to say in 250 posts and 2 days.
I did this by using 100 as a unit size (or U), and -130 as odds.
Now make the odds positive, so -130 becomes 130.
FOR A FAVORITE: Bet Size = 2U/((100/ODDS) + 1)
FOR AN UNDERDOG: Bet Size = 2U/((ODDS/100) + 1))
So, I did (2x100) divided by ((100/130) + 1), as the formula states.
For the +160 dog, the Unit Size (or U) is still 100, and the odds are 160.
So, I did 2x100 divided by (160/100 + 1)
I know you asked not to use formulas, but that is the only way I know to do it. Does that help?
I get the ML average, and the system you well described above. If I was wagering on 6 games in a day, would it then be beneficial to us the ML avg. on those six in the above system, or would it negate the fav / dog individual MLs?
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Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:
cd... for the -130 fav, bet $113.04
for the +160 dog, bet $76.92.
I did this by using 100 as a unit size (or U), and -130 as odds.
Now make the odds positive, so -130 becomes 130.
FOR A FAVORITE: Bet Size = 2U/((100/ODDS) + 1)
FOR AN UNDERDOG: Bet Size = 2U/((ODDS/100) + 1))
So, I did (2x100) divided by ((100/130) + 1), as the formula states.
For the +160 dog, the Unit Size (or U) is still 100, and the odds are 160.
So, I did 2x100 divided by (160/100 + 1)
I know you asked not to use formulas, but that is the only way I know to do it. Does that help?
I get the ML average, and the system you well described above. If I was wagering on 6 games in a day, would it then be beneficial to us the ML avg. on those six in the above system, or would it negate the fav / dog individual MLs?
I am actually confused at what pertinence my Covers Born on Date has anything to do with my comment.
because this is a very informative thread, regardless its location, and you being new to this site, it's a bit much you telling everyone where it should be located ....
it's all good
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Quote Originally Posted by gamblingsnob:
I am actually confused at what pertinence my Covers Born on Date has anything to do with my comment.
because this is a very informative thread, regardless its location, and you being new to this site, it's a bit much you telling everyone where it should be located ....
so, if you had a record of 20-10 ...and u flat betted, your units would be +10 ?
i don't think so depending on how many favorites you bet, but it does make sense because it almost makes every game worth the same. There's a reason 'books limit money on a side by making it -130, which makes you put 1.17 units on it when you'd only be putting 1 on EVEN and 1.024 on -105 and 1.048 on -110 because that is the side they favor.
...this thread should be at the top always
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Quote Originally Posted by ethancraft50:
so, if you had a record of 20-10 ...and u flat betted, your units would be +10 ?
i don't think so depending on how many favorites you bet, but it does make sense because it almost makes every game worth the same. There's a reason 'books limit money on a side by making it -130, which makes you put 1.17 units on it when you'd only be putting 1 on EVEN and 1.024 on -105 and 1.048 on -110 because that is the side they favor.
ethan why would you resurrect this piece of shit thread?
You are a total douchebag. I guess you would rather have 1000 pick threads or lock threads on the first page.
I totally get it that you DONT GET IT, but stop embarassing yourself.
I would say out of all of the threads I have been involved with, this one has had the most impact recently, and people genuinely are interested so if you arent, just buzz off.
And while you are at it, just kill yourself.
Support your local animal shelter. I am on twitter.
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Quote Originally Posted by nccashman:
ethan why would you resurrect this piece of shit thread?
You are a total douchebag. I guess you would rather have 1000 pick threads or lock threads on the first page.
I totally get it that you DONT GET IT, but stop embarassing yourself.
I would say out of all of the threads I have been involved with, this one has had the most impact recently, and people genuinely are interested so if you arent, just buzz off.
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