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    All Forums | MLB Betting Forum

    Flat betting in Baseball....

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    GWarner27
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    GWarner27
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 8:13 PM ET #126

    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

     

    This is a tough question to answer, because there are so many possible scenarios, but I'll try to give you an idea of what I understand.  Let's say a bettor is putting $10 on every game for an entire season.  Let's also assume that the odds of the games bet on are either +200 or -200, so either a fairly heavy favorite or fairly heavy underdog.  In a 100 game season, let's also assume you bet evenly on dogs and favorites.  Now, let's say you go 40-10 on favorites, for a profit of $100 (40 wins of 5$ and 10 losses of 10$).  For the underdogs, you go 10-40, for a loss of $200.  You are down $100 on the season.

    Now, realize that at -200 odds, you are supposed to win two times for every time you lose, and at +200 odds, you are supposed to win once for every two losses.  Therefore, this split (if there is no skill/luck involved) would result in about a 33-17 record on favorites and a 17-33 record on dogs, and the bettor would end up breaking even on the season.  However, in the scenario I presented, the bettor was able to win 7 more games on favorites than he statistically should have, but he lost 7 more games on underdogs.  Even though his luck pretty much evened out, he is down $100 on the season, because he valued dogs more, and he did not have a good season betting dogs. 

    In other words, betting 10 a game regardless of the odds washes out your record for favorites, and makes your dog plays more meaningful to your final bankroll.  To adjust, the bettor should we wagering MORE money per bet on ML favorites and LESS money per bet on ML underdogs so as not to overvalue the dogs.

    "Flat Betting" will value your bets on dogs and favorites equally in the long run.  As opposed to the way most people bet (bet exactly 1 unit on each game), flat betting makes your record betting on favorites more prominent in your bankroll, and betting on dogs less prominent in your bankroll, AS IT SHOULD BE, since underdogs are less likely to hit.

     

    If you are especially good at betting specifically favorites or dogs, then "flat betting" is probably not for you, but for most systems and bettors, "flat betting" is the best way to keep a bankroll that corresponds to your betting record.



    that's exactly what i'm looking for. Thank you lawstyle, and thank you Vanzack for everything in this thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

     

    This is a tough question to answer, because there are so many possible scenarios, but I'll try to give you an idea of what I understand.  Let's say a bettor is putting $10 on every game for an entire season.  Let's also assume that the odds of the games bet on are either +200 or -200, so either a fairly heavy favorite or fairly heavy underdog.  In a 100 game season, let's also assume you bet evenly on dogs and favorites.  Now, let's say you go 40-10 on favorites, for a profit of $100 (40 wins of 5$ and 10 losses of 10$).  For the underdogs, you go 10-40, for a loss of $200.  You are down $100 on the season.

    Now, realize that at -200 odds, you are supposed to win two times for every time you lose, and at +200 odds, you are supposed to win once for every two losses.  Therefore, this split (if there is no skill/luck involved) would result in about a 33-17 record on favorites and a 17-33 record on dogs, and the bettor would end up breaking even on the season.  However, in the scenario I presented, the bettor was able to win 7 more games on favorites than he statistically should have, but he lost 7 more games on underdogs.  Even though his luck pretty much evened out, he is down $100 on the season, because he valued dogs more, and he did not have a good season betting dogs. 

    In other words, betting 10 a game regardless of the odds washes out your record for favorites, and makes your dog plays more meaningful to your final bankroll.  To adjust, the bettor should we wagering MORE money per bet on ML favorites and LESS money per bet on ML underdogs so as not to overvalue the dogs.

    "Flat Betting" will value your bets on dogs and favorites equally in the long run.  As opposed to the way most people bet (bet exactly 1 unit on each game), flat betting makes your record betting on favorites more prominent in your bankroll, and betting on dogs less prominent in your bankroll, AS IT SHOULD BE, since underdogs are less likely to hit.

     

    If you are especially good at betting specifically favorites or dogs, then "flat betting" is probably not for you, but for most systems and bettors, "flat betting" is the best way to keep a bankroll that corresponds to your betting record.



    that's exactly what i'm looking for. Thank you lawstyle, and thank you Vanzack for everything in this thread
     
    cd329
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 8:22 PM ET #127

    Van,
     In your examples in the first post, how are you coming up with the amounts to bet on each play?
     
    How did you figure out to play 72 bucks to win 128 on a plus 180 dog
    thanks
    cd
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    Van,
     In your examples in the first post, how are you coming up with the amounts to bet on each play?
     
    How did you figure out to play 72 bucks to win 128 on a plus 180 dog
    thanks
    cd
     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 8:36 PM ET #128

    cd -- go through the entire thread. He posted the formulas and so did lawstyle.
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    cd -- go through the entire thread. He posted the formulas and so did lawstyle.
     
    cd329
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 8:43 PM ET #129

    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    cd -- go through the entire thread. He posted the formulas and so did lawstyle.

     

    Thanks, i must have passed right over it.

    cd

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    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:

    cd -- go through the entire thread. He posted the formulas and so did lawstyle.

     

    Thanks, i must have passed right over it.

    cd

     
    LongTermProfits
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 9:22 PM ET #130

    van

    very interesting breakdown about flat betting

    if you are using matchbook and wanted to have the "2 unit" outcome, can you simply play around with the risk amount until the risk amount and the "to win" amount when added together equal 2 untis?

    like risk .72 to win 1.28

    or risk 1.01 to win .99

    would this be the "quick and easy way" to equallly proportioned flat betting, without having to use a spreadsheet to calculate the risk amount?

    thanks

     

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    van

    very interesting breakdown about flat betting

    if you are using matchbook and wanted to have the "2 unit" outcome, can you simply play around with the risk amount until the risk amount and the "to win" amount when added together equal 2 untis?

    like risk .72 to win 1.28

    or risk 1.01 to win .99

    would this be the "quick and easy way" to equallly proportioned flat betting, without having to use a spreadsheet to calculate the risk amount?

    thanks

     

     
    GWarner27
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 9:26 PM ET #131

    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

    =IF((B1>0),((2*A1)/((B1/100)+1)),((2*A1)/((100/(SQRT(B1^2))+1))))
     
    Copy and paste that into some cell in a spreadsheet.  In cell A1, type your unit size.  In cell B1, type your odds (-115, -200, +300, whatever...).  In the cell with that formula should appear the appropriate bet size


    Longterm, use this and just play with the odds and your unit and it spits it out perfectly in Excel
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

    =IF((B1>0),((2*A1)/((B1/100)+1)),((2*A1)/((100/(SQRT(B1^2))+1))))
     
    Copy and paste that into some cell in a spreadsheet.  In cell A1, type your unit size.  In cell B1, type your odds (-115, -200, +300, whatever...).  In the cell with that formula should appear the appropriate bet size


    Longterm, use this and just play with the odds and your unit and it spits it out perfectly in Excel
     
    LongTermProfits
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 9:39 PM ET #132

    GWarner
     
     
    thanks for the input, but i am looking for the quick and easy way to just have matchbook figure it out - usually not enough time to plug stuff into excel to figure out risk amounts
     
    i think what i said would work, but just wanted to double check it with van
     
     
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    GWarner
     
     
    thanks for the input, but i am looking for the quick and easy way to just have matchbook figure it out - usually not enough time to plug stuff into excel to figure out risk amounts
     
    i think what i said would work, but just wanted to double check it with van
     
     
     
    Buckeyebomb
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 9:45 PM ET #133

    Grest stuff Van thanks
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    Grest stuff Van thanks
     
    LUNCHBOX
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 9:51 PM ET #134

    Great thread Vanzack.
     
    Your thread about it prior to the season got me to adopt this correct flat method of betting bases and its been great so far.  Most flat bettors (myself included prior to this season) would break even winning a -120 fave and losing a +150 dog, but if you do it right (losing 0.8000 units and making 0.9091) you make a little bit, as you should hitting the shorter fave and losing the longer dog.  And Van you are so right about people being afraid of 'minus' signs.  Unpopular faves have been lights out this year.
     
    Just because I like to flex my math geek skills from time to time, I'll help anyone who cares understand the breakdown of this....and I saw some people joking about how useless algebra is and it came in quite handy to figure out how to apply this.  I've been using it from the get go...still have the scratch sheet that I used to figure it out.
     
    Because you want your risk + return to equal double your unit:
     
    2 * Unit = Risk Amount + Risk Amount(odds)
     
    The formula we need is for Risk Amount...lets call Risk Amt "X"
     
    2 * Unit = X + X(odds)..........divide both sides by X:

    (2 * Unit)/X = X/X +X(odds)/X....simplify:
     
    (2 * Unit)/X = 1 + odds........invert both sides:
     
    X/(2 * Unit) = 1/(1 + odds)......multiply both sides by (2 * Unit)
     
    X = (2 * Unit)/(1 + odds)
     
    Only diff is I type in odds as 1.23 instead of 123
     
    You only need 4 cells:
     
    A1 = Unit Size
    A2 = Odds
    A3 = (2*A1)/(1+A2)
    A4 = A3*A2
     
    Manually enter A1 and A2 which then calculate A3 and A4
    For dogs risk A3 to win A4
    For faves risk A4 to win A3
     
    Same exact thing as above....
     
     
     
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    Great thread Vanzack.
     
    Your thread about it prior to the season got me to adopt this correct flat method of betting bases and its been great so far.  Most flat bettors (myself included prior to this season) would break even winning a -120 fave and losing a +150 dog, but if you do it right (losing 0.8000 units and making 0.9091) you make a little bit, as you should hitting the shorter fave and losing the longer dog.  And Van you are so right about people being afraid of 'minus' signs.  Unpopular faves have been lights out this year.
     
    Just because I like to flex my math geek skills from time to time, I'll help anyone who cares understand the breakdown of this....and I saw some people joking about how useless algebra is and it came in quite handy to figure out how to apply this.  I've been using it from the get go...still have the scratch sheet that I used to figure it out.
     
    Because you want your risk + return to equal double your unit:
     
    2 * Unit = Risk Amount + Risk Amount(odds)
     
    The formula we need is for Risk Amount...lets call Risk Amt "X"
     
    2 * Unit = X + X(odds)..........divide both sides by X:

    (2 * Unit)/X = X/X +X(odds)/X....simplify:
     
    (2 * Unit)/X = 1 + odds........invert both sides:
     
    X/(2 * Unit) = 1/(1 + odds)......multiply both sides by (2 * Unit)
     
    X = (2 * Unit)/(1 + odds)
     
    Only diff is I type in odds as 1.23 instead of 123
     
    You only need 4 cells:
     
    A1 = Unit Size
    A2 = Odds
    A3 = (2*A1)/(1+A2)
    A4 = A3*A2
     
    Manually enter A1 and A2 which then calculate A3 and A4
    For dogs risk A3 to win A4
    For faves risk A4 to win A3
     
    Same exact thing as above....
     
     
     
     
    Godfather16
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 10:37 PM ET #135

    This guy is so full of it, if you can't pick a higher % of winners to beat the juice then it doesn't matter what syle of betting you use, you're through.
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    This guy is so full of it, if you can't pick a higher % of winners to beat the juice then it doesn't matter what syle of betting you use, you're through.
     
    GWarner27
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 10:48 PM ET #136

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather16:

    This guy is so full of it, if you can't pick a higher % of winners to beat the juice then it doesn't matter what syle of betting you use, you're through.


    thanks for your input
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather16:

    This guy is so full of it, if you can't pick a higher % of winners to beat the juice then it doesn't matter what syle of betting you use, you're through.


    thanks for your input
     
    acf5026
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:01 PM ET #137

    Vanzack,

    GREAT thread, I love math and I can't believe I haven't thought of this. (Haven't been betting on baseball at all so I am blaming that). For everyone disagreeing either admit you are not flat betting or think about the numbers and actually read what Vanzack and others are saying.




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    Vanzack,

    GREAT thread, I love math and I can't believe I haven't thought of this. (Haven't been betting on baseball at all so I am blaming that). For everyone disagreeing either admit you are not flat betting or think about the numbers and actually read what Vanzack and others are saying.




     
    nccashman
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:11 PM ET #138

    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

     

     flat betting makes your record betting on favorites more prominent in your bankroll, and betting on dogs less prominent in your bankroll,

    If you are especially good at betting specifically favorites or dogs, then "flat betting" is probably not for you,

     

    This is exactly what I said earlier and van the man said I was a loser.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawstyle:

     

     flat betting makes your record betting on favorites more prominent in your bankroll, and betting on dogs less prominent in your bankroll,

    If you are especially good at betting specifically favorites or dogs, then "flat betting" is probably not for you,

     

    This is exactly what I said earlier and van the man said I was a loser.

     
    betthehouse
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:21 PM ET #139

    This coming from a dumb fucker that would vote for a dumbocrat
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    This coming from a dumb fucker that would vote for a dumbocrat
     
    Dsn150
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:25 PM ET #140

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather16:

    This guy is so full of it, if you can't pick a higher % of winners to beat the juice then it doesn't matter what syle of betting you use, you're through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godfather16:

    This guy is so full of it, if you can't pick a higher % of winners to beat the juice then it doesn't matter what syle of betting you use, you're through.

     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:28 PM ET #141

    Quote Originally Posted by betthehouse:

    This coming from a dumb fucker that would vote for a dumbocrat


    You just called the majority of Americans "dumb fuckers." I hope you feel more relieved now that you have spewed your hate on a message board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by betthehouse:

    This coming from a dumb fucker that would vote for a dumbocrat


    You just called the majority of Americans "dumb fuckers." I hope you feel more relieved now that you have spewed your hate on a message board.
     
    nccashman
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:39 PM ET #142

    the majority? it's a shame that so many Americans are deceived by the powers that be...
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    the majority? it's a shame that so many Americans are deceived by the powers that be...
     
    betthehouse
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:42 PM ET #143

    I said dumb fucker not dumb fuckers, of course, here we go, another dumbocrat putting words in our mouths.
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    I said dumb fucker not dumb fuckers, of course, here we go, another dumbocrat putting words in our mouths.
     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:43 PM ET #144

    Quote Originally Posted by nccashman:

    the majority? it's a shame that so many Americans are deceived by the powers that be...


    Both Republicans and Democrats are equally corrupt and the shame is that Americans don't get this or why and how it's the case.

    But please, PLEASE, let's stick to baseball here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nccashman:

    the majority? it's a shame that so many Americans are deceived by the powers that be...


    Both Republicans and Democrats are equally corrupt and the shame is that Americans don't get this or why and how it's the case.

    But please, PLEASE, let's stick to baseball here.
     
    betthehouse
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:43 PM ET #145

    Just because someone would vote for a dumbocrat doesnt mean they are dumb.  They are just uneducated
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    Just because someone would vote for a dumbocrat doesnt mean they are dumb.  They are just uneducated
     
    HeadOverHeart
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:44 PM ET #146

    vanzack, I get it now through the math examples posted.  It is flat-betting based upon the payout of the wager, not based upon the wager amount itself.

    Gotcha. 

    We are on the same roads here, just looking ina different direction.

    Interesting way to look at wagering.  Never thought of it myself, as I have just flat-betted my wagered amounts (I use decimal lines so juice is hard to "see.").

    Good sharing and I will keep this in mind for future use.
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    vanzack, I get it now through the math examples posted.  It is flat-betting based upon the payout of the wager, not based upon the wager amount itself.

    Gotcha. 

    We are on the same roads here, just looking ina different direction.

    Interesting way to look at wagering.  Never thought of it myself, as I have just flat-betted my wagered amounts (I use decimal lines so juice is hard to "see.").

    Good sharing and I will keep this in mind for future use.
     
    betthehouse
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:44 PM ET #147

    get your money from the goverment and blow it on gambling.
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    get your money from the goverment and blow it on gambling.
     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:44 PM ET #148

    Quote Originally Posted by betthehouse:

    I said dumb fucker not dumb fuckers, of course, here we go, another dumbocrat putting words in our mouths.


    The logical conclusion of your statement is that it applies to anyone who votes Democrat. And by the way, I am a registered Republican, you moron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by betthehouse:

    I said dumb fucker not dumb fuckers, of course, here we go, another dumbocrat putting words in our mouths.


    The logical conclusion of your statement is that it applies to anyone who votes Democrat. And by the way, I am a registered Republican, you moron.
     
    lanastasis
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:45 PM ET #149

    Quote Originally Posted by betthehouse:

    Just because someone would vote for a dumbocrat doesnt mean they are dumb.  They are just uneducated


    Dumb=uneducated. Talk about shitty semantics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by betthehouse:

    Just because someone would vote for a dumbocrat doesnt mean they are dumb.  They are just uneducated


    Dumb=uneducated. Talk about shitty semantics.
     
     
    nccashman
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    Posted: Apr. 14, 2008 - 11:46 PM ET #150

    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:



    Both Republicans and Democrats are equally corrupt and the shame is that Americans don't get this or why and how it's the case.

    But please, PLEASE, let's stick to baseball here.

     

    That's basically what I was saying there lan...corruption on both sides...it just sounded like you were defending the democratic persuasion

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    Quote Originally Posted by lanastasis:



    Both Republicans and Democrats are equally corrupt and the shame is that Americans don't get this or why and how it's the case.

    But please, PLEASE, let's stick to baseball here.

     

    That's basically what I was saying there lan...corruption on both sides...it just sounded like you were defending the democratic persuasion

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