The 2005 pistons pretty much did, granted all of their role players are terrific role players but Chancy was the closest thing that team had to a superstar and it would be a stretch to call him that
Billups and Rasheed were both perennial All Stars during the years around that title run... Billups still makes regular All Star appearances...
however, a team like that is the exception that proves the rule... those are few and far between...
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Quote Originally Posted by Fairweatherfan:
The 2005 pistons pretty much did, granted all of their role players are terrific role players but Chancy was the closest thing that team had to a superstar and it would be a stretch to call him that
Billups and Rasheed were both perennial All Stars during the years around that title run... Billups still makes regular All Star appearances...
however, a team like that is the exception that proves the rule... those are few and far between...
Kobe struggled after Shaq left 'til Gasol was handed to them on a platter and that's when they start winning. Take Gasol out and insert Shaq/Ilgauskas/Jamison/Varajao and see how LA do.
You need at least one player who can create scoring chances for themselves or others on their own. No other Cavs player can close to do that.
MJ/Kobe have ROLE players besides superstars who have hit winning play-off shots, Kerr/Paxson/Horry/Fisher. Cavs do not have any.
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Title? No way in hell!!!
Kobe struggled after Shaq left 'til Gasol was handed to them on a platter and that's when they start winning. Take Gasol out and insert Shaq/Ilgauskas/Jamison/Varajao and see how LA do.
You need at least one player who can create scoring chances for themselves or others on their own. No other Cavs player can close to do that.
MJ/Kobe have ROLE players besides superstars who have hit winning play-off shots, Kerr/Paxson/Horry/Fisher. Cavs do not have any.
yeah ur right one series doesnt make or break ur career but with lebron we get to have this debate every year. you can read my thread on it again next year and the year after . if he makes everyone on his team better then they are all in trouble when he leaves they will have to play over seas. winning games in the regular season means nothing if u choke in the playoffs (66,,61, choke,choke) oh yeah but they did win homecourt through out
i am a cavs fan., and the whole series looked very weird., the cavs looked like a completely different team the regular season., i knew how tough the celtics were going to be in a best of 7 series,. and the celtics/ hawks were both back and forth for the 3 and 4 seed., being a cavs fan i was telling how important it would be to get to play the hawks in the second round ., then either boston or orlando in the conference finals., it is funny how homecourt throughout and best record., got the cavs hands down the toughest 2nd matchup of any team in the league., not taking anything away from boston., not that i could., the cavs deserves to lose the series they played bad,. i saw no hustle no sense of urgency., i knew after game 1 , in which the cavs got very lucky to win at home after playing very poorly the whole game,. that is was not going to be good., if lebron stays or goes., he will end up with more championship rings than kobe,. a better coach., new gm., there has to be other smart front offices out there that will do better than what cleveland did the last few years., that is all for now.
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Quote Originally Posted by lightsout2184:
yeah ur right one series doesnt make or break ur career but with lebron we get to have this debate every year. you can read my thread on it again next year and the year after . if he makes everyone on his team better then they are all in trouble when he leaves they will have to play over seas. winning games in the regular season means nothing if u choke in the playoffs (66,,61, choke,choke) oh yeah but they did win homecourt through out
i am a cavs fan., and the whole series looked very weird., the cavs looked like a completely different team the regular season., i knew how tough the celtics were going to be in a best of 7 series,. and the celtics/ hawks were both back and forth for the 3 and 4 seed., being a cavs fan i was telling how important it would be to get to play the hawks in the second round ., then either boston or orlando in the conference finals., it is funny how homecourt throughout and best record., got the cavs hands down the toughest 2nd matchup of any team in the league., not taking anything away from boston., not that i could., the cavs deserves to lose the series they played bad,. i saw no hustle no sense of urgency., i knew after game 1 , in which the cavs got very lucky to win at home after playing very poorly the whole game,. that is was not going to be good., if lebron stays or goes., he will end up with more championship rings than kobe,. a better coach., new gm., there has to be other smart front offices out there that will do better than what cleveland did the last few years., that is all for now.
Are any of these guys the mvp of the team with the best record?
i never implied that they were,. big fella., but the fact that j.nelson is an all-star pg and d.howard is a younger stronger freak of nature (kind of like a shaq) nobody can guard him in the post and he can't make free throws to save his life., d.howard is a first team nba player probably like top 3 or 4 in the mvp race in recent and future years., i was just saying., this media rubbish is out of control., lebron is the best basketball play on the planet., but it comes down to being a team sport, and he needs more talent., just one more guy who is consistently there just about every night., not once a week a la mo williams & .. umm maybe jamison., they needed somebody else brother.,
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Quote Originally Posted by graymeat2002:
Are any of these guys the mvp of the team with the best record?
i never implied that they were,. big fella., but the fact that j.nelson is an all-star pg and d.howard is a younger stronger freak of nature (kind of like a shaq) nobody can guard him in the post and he can't make free throws to save his life., d.howard is a first team nba player probably like top 3 or 4 in the mvp race in recent and future years., i was just saying., this media rubbish is out of control., lebron is the best basketball play on the planet., but it comes down to being a team sport, and he needs more talent., just one more guy who is consistently there just about every night., not once a week a la mo williams & .. umm maybe jamison., they needed somebody else brother.,
an interesting fact, Jordan won every series that the bulls had home court advantage in.
jordan had a better team., but lebron is not trying to be jordan., kobe tries to be jordan., and kobe is very clutch., i think even know you can say that lebron is a better overall/ all-around basketball player then kobe., kobe is a better scorer., but making 13-of 30 and getting to the line a lot,. doesn't seem that a great scoring player., i am nobody again mind you.,. i have never really been a fan of kobe., yes he can score and is very clutch., but with out shaq he would not have 4 rings !!
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Quote Originally Posted by graymeat2002:
an interesting fact, Jordan won every series that the bulls had home court advantage in.
jordan had a better team., but lebron is not trying to be jordan., kobe tries to be jordan., and kobe is very clutch., i think even know you can say that lebron is a better overall/ all-around basketball player then kobe., kobe is a better scorer., but making 13-of 30 and getting to the line a lot,. doesn't seem that a great scoring player., i am nobody again mind you.,. i have never really been a fan of kobe., yes he can score and is very clutch., but with out shaq he would not have 4 rings !!
I think it was said best earlier in the thread: put Lebron on the Lakers and what do you have? You'd have NBA playoffs for 2nd place because Stern would've handed them the trophy back in preseason. ALL this talk about LEBRON not being MJ or KOBE is crazy? The only person who wants to be M.J. is KOBE. Lebron is Lebron. He'll never be the pure shooter of the aforentioned two but he doesn't have to. He is the most explosive, agile, quick, 6'9 270lb dude to ever touch the rock. Will he ever get one (championship)? IF Vegas ever put out odds on that the betting trend would be as follows: 100% of bettors are on Lebron gets a RING!!!!!
very very true. , even if the bet was for lebron to win a ring in the next 3 seasons., who is going to bet against that.,
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Quote Originally Posted by jasonperry91:
I think it was said best earlier in the thread: put Lebron on the Lakers and what do you have? You'd have NBA playoffs for 2nd place because Stern would've handed them the trophy back in preseason. ALL this talk about LEBRON not being MJ or KOBE is crazy? The only person who wants to be M.J. is KOBE. Lebron is Lebron. He'll never be the pure shooter of the aforentioned two but he doesn't have to. He is the most explosive, agile, quick, 6'9 270lb dude to ever touch the rock. Will he ever get one (championship)? IF Vegas ever put out odds on that the betting trend would be as follows: 100% of bettors are on Lebron gets a RING!!!!!
very very true. , even if the bet was for lebron to win a ring in the next 3 seasons., who is going to bet against that.,
Its amazing how many people have such short and selective memories. Here are Facts for all you Jordan Worshipers.
MJ NEVER BEAT the Celtics or the Pistons in their PRIME. It was not until the Pistons and Boston got old did he overcome them. His first title against the lakers were also against an OLD Laker team. Its amazing how many people compare lebron at 25 to MJ at 32. Completely different points in their career. Point is MJ would have done the same as Lebron with this current Cavs team. MJ won nothing with out a supporting Cast. Lebron wont either. Boston is and was a much better team.
The whole concept of "what has he won" was once Underrated statement about 20 years ago. Today its an OVerrated statement. Bottom line, No ONE GUY can win a title by HIMSELF.
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Its amazing how many people have such short and selective memories. Here are Facts for all you Jordan Worshipers.
MJ NEVER BEAT the Celtics or the Pistons in their PRIME. It was not until the Pistons and Boston got old did he overcome them. His first title against the lakers were also against an OLD Laker team. Its amazing how many people compare lebron at 25 to MJ at 32. Completely different points in their career. Point is MJ would have done the same as Lebron with this current Cavs team. MJ won nothing with out a supporting Cast. Lebron wont either. Boston is and was a much better team.
The whole concept of "what has he won" was once Underrated statement about 20 years ago. Today its an OVerrated statement. Bottom line, No ONE GUY can win a title by HIMSELF.
jordan had a better team., but lebron is not trying to be jordan., kobe tries to be jordan., and kobe is very clutch., i think even know you can say that lebron is a better overall/ all-around basketball player then kobe., kobe is a better scorer., but making 13-of 30 and getting to the line a lot,. doesn't seem that a great scoring player., i am nobody again mind you.,. i have never really been a fan of kobe., yes he can score and is very clutch., but with out shaq he would not have 4 rings !!
Who choose to where the number 23? that couldn't have possibly had anything to do with Jordan, could it? I'm not a Kobe fan either but, criticizing his shooting and drawing fouls is stupid. could be wrong but, i think lebron shoots just as many free throws as Kobe(probably doesn't make as many which is probably his teams fault)
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Quote Originally Posted by book_itjames11:
jordan had a better team., but lebron is not trying to be jordan., kobe tries to be jordan., and kobe is very clutch., i think even know you can say that lebron is a better overall/ all-around basketball player then kobe., kobe is a better scorer., but making 13-of 30 and getting to the line a lot,. doesn't seem that a great scoring player., i am nobody again mind you.,. i have never really been a fan of kobe., yes he can score and is very clutch., but with out shaq he would not have 4 rings !!
Who choose to where the number 23? that couldn't have possibly had anything to do with Jordan, could it? I'm not a Kobe fan either but, criticizing his shooting and drawing fouls is stupid. could be wrong but, i think lebron shoots just as many free throws as Kobe(probably doesn't make as many which is probably his teams fault)
i never implied that they were,. big fella., but the fact that j.nelson is an all-star pg and d.howard is a younger stronger freak of nature (kind of like a shaq) nobody can guard him in the post and he can't make free throws to save his life., d.howard is a first team nba player probably like top 3 or 4 in the mvp race in recent and future years., i was just saying., this media rubbish is out of control., lebron is the best basketball play on the planet., but it comes down to being a team sport, and he needs more talent., just one more guy who is consistently there just about every night., not once a week a la mo williams & .. umm maybe jamison., they needed somebody else brother.,
With money, pressure, talent and hype come different levels of criticism. mvp, most endorsements, nickname the King, face of the nba, best record in the league, etc.. this all adds up to biggest dissappointment which in turn leads to most criticism. If the Celts beat the magic in the Semis it is less dissapointing for magic
As far as guys not showing up, that reflects leadership(mvp and coach). I'll give the coach/system of the cavs in my opinion is a problem not necessarily the talent. Jamison, williams, Shaq all had memorable and forgetable games. So did Lebron
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Quote Originally Posted by book_itjames11:
i never implied that they were,. big fella., but the fact that j.nelson is an all-star pg and d.howard is a younger stronger freak of nature (kind of like a shaq) nobody can guard him in the post and he can't make free throws to save his life., d.howard is a first team nba player probably like top 3 or 4 in the mvp race in recent and future years., i was just saying., this media rubbish is out of control., lebron is the best basketball play on the planet., but it comes down to being a team sport, and he needs more talent., just one more guy who is consistently there just about every night., not once a week a la mo williams & .. umm maybe jamison., they needed somebody else brother.,
With money, pressure, talent and hype come different levels of criticism. mvp, most endorsements, nickname the King, face of the nba, best record in the league, etc.. this all adds up to biggest dissappointment which in turn leads to most criticism. If the Celts beat the magic in the Semis it is less dissapointing for magic
As far as guys not showing up, that reflects leadership(mvp and coach). I'll give the coach/system of the cavs in my opinion is a problem not necessarily the talent. Jamison, williams, Shaq all had memorable and forgetable games. So did Lebron
IMO the 2 greatest accomplishments from a 1 player standpoint as far as what their teams achieved was Jordan gettin 6 rings with only mediocre centers (tho Rodman had a huge impact when he was there) & Olajuwon winning 2 with only good role players & 3 pt shooters. Jordan had Pippen & some good role players who could knock down open shots, but Hakeem had no real standouts & did it with likes of Elie, Smith, Mad Max, Horry, etc.
To me, they have been the 2 most valuable players in the league even going back to the days of Magic & Bird who were both incredible & did a ton for their team & the league. If they were honest, Jordan should have got the MVP every full season he played after his 3rd or so & Olujuwon should have come in 2nd from the late 80's on except when MJ didn't play. Would've loved to have seen the Bulls/Rockets matched up in the Finals in the mid-90's, but never happened. Would have been interesting cuz Hakeem used to give 'em fits & when Hou hit their 3's they would beat the Bulls in the reg season -
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IMO the 2 greatest accomplishments from a 1 player standpoint as far as what their teams achieved was Jordan gettin 6 rings with only mediocre centers (tho Rodman had a huge impact when he was there) & Olajuwon winning 2 with only good role players & 3 pt shooters. Jordan had Pippen & some good role players who could knock down open shots, but Hakeem had no real standouts & did it with likes of Elie, Smith, Mad Max, Horry, etc.
To me, they have been the 2 most valuable players in the league even going back to the days of Magic & Bird who were both incredible & did a ton for their team & the league. If they were honest, Jordan should have got the MVP every full season he played after his 3rd or so & Olujuwon should have come in 2nd from the late 80's on except when MJ didn't play. Would've loved to have seen the Bulls/Rockets matched up in the Finals in the mid-90's, but never happened. Would have been interesting cuz Hakeem used to give 'em fits & when Hou hit their 3's they would beat the Bulls in the reg season -
Jordan and Kobe could carry Lebron's team past the celtics and maybe to a championship. Lebron is hyped up more than his game suggest he should be. He asked to get certain players on the team and the Cavs went out and did it and they lost. Maybe the other players aren't the problem. Maybe Lebron should look in the mirror and not blame everyone else and take the blame on his shoulders. I find these stats interesting:
All playoff numbers
Jordan Kobe Lebron
FG % 48.7 44.8 45.9
3 FG % 33.2 33.3 31.6
FT % 82.8 81.1 74.3
TO Game 3.05 2.91 3.73
Lebron can't shoot from the outside. Doesn't make free throws let alone any when it matters and turns the ball over more than either of the others. His box scores may be flashy but he doesn't know how to win. If he learns to make free throws and hold onto the ball he might win a championship. Until then hes a good player and thats it.
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Jordan and Kobe could carry Lebron's team past the celtics and maybe to a championship. Lebron is hyped up more than his game suggest he should be. He asked to get certain players on the team and the Cavs went out and did it and they lost. Maybe the other players aren't the problem. Maybe Lebron should look in the mirror and not blame everyone else and take the blame on his shoulders. I find these stats interesting:
All playoff numbers
Jordan Kobe Lebron
FG % 48.7 44.8 45.9
3 FG % 33.2 33.3 31.6
FT % 82.8 81.1 74.3
TO Game 3.05 2.91 3.73
Lebron can't shoot from the outside. Doesn't make free throws let alone any when it matters and turns the ball over more than either of the others. His box scores may be flashy but he doesn't know how to win. If he learns to make free throws and hold onto the ball he might win a championship. Until then hes a good player and thats it.
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