Gas shortage

@nature1970

 Green energy is not cheap, is not accessible for everyone and pulls more natural resources from the land for production.  Everyone wants a solar roof until they see the price. Articles will tell you that solar panels on your roof will pay for themselves in a few years, but it's more like a dozen and more. The battery pack from Tesla is a great idea, however the raw materials needed to build "green" products are also destroying land.  Plus labor to keep the panels clean, if the roof needs to be replaced there's even more labor to remove and reinstall. Panels do not last forever so how do you dispose of them? Isn't the idea of going green to limit waste and natural resources? 

Actually the new electric Ford F150 pickup looks be reasonably priced but lacks miles per charge right now, IMO. Think it's great we migrate to electric WHERE WE CAN. Don't force it!!!!

Environmentalists scream WE CAN'T WAIT, WE CAN'T WAIT!!!! 

Ok, then what about our Asian countries???  China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam plan to build more than 600 new coal-fired power projects, with a combined capacity of more than 300 gigawatts. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/asias-new-coal-plant-plans-jeopardise-climate-targets-report-says-2021-06-29/

They bury their head in the sand and still proceed to tie a hand behind the U.S.'s back. STUPID!! Were not going to put a dent in the carbon percentages in our atmosphere if this is happening. 

74% of each barrel of oil makes either gasoline or diesel, the other 26% makes mostly plastic products. More than just fuel prices go up.

I like this statement; "See your traitor pushed forward that America can sell oil and petroleum abroad."

What?? America have exports??? Money coming to our economy, not leaving??? Sure as hell can't have that!!!! 

A traitor is one who gives tax payers money to electric car battery makers and then allows those companies to be sold to CHINA after our tax payers money was used for technology. China now has it. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/battery-maker-that-received-stimulus-money-could-be-sold-to-chinese-company/2012/12/05/8de81124-3f09-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b_story.html

Even Hunter Biden helped Chinese military supplier buy Michigan auto parts manufacture.

https://justthenews.com/accountability/political-ethics/how-hunter-biden-tied-hedge-fund-helped-communist-china-obtain

There's your traitors!!! But just like the future 600 coal fired power plants in Asia, in addition to the ones ALREADY THERE, bury your head in the sand. Move along........................

@BigGame90

 I think you're missing his point. His point is simply that oil is a finite resource. And we need to explore alternative energy sources based simply on that. Likewise, I believe in being energy independent but I don't believe oil companies should just have carte blanche to drill any or everywhere. And the notion that it simply boils down to being energy independent is a crock of shit. It boils down to profits for the petroleum industry.

@UNIMAN

 How many tax dollars do you think are being collected on oil exported out of the country? This shit is not about bolstering our economy. It's about oil companies raking in profits.

@StumpTownStu

 I agree with your post. I'm all for green energy but at the same time oil is much needed. Going towards green energy is going to take time as it won't change over night. Solar for homes in Arizona and the desert areas makes 100% sense. Like oil, green energy has its drawbacks but to force green energy down our throats is simply wrong. It's not nearly as affordable and useful as oil. Change takes time and alternative energy is still being explored. You are right about about the profits being the center of the issue but that's what makes the world go round.

@BigGame90

 We haven't ceased oil production though. Nor is anyone advocating for ceasing oil production. My only point has been gas prices are routinely inflated by the oil industry based on the excuse du jour but it's really only about profits. Opening up public lands isn't about making us energy independent, it's about profits. And those profits often do little to nothing to actually help Americans. They provide jobs but not substantially more. The oil companies are not paying their fair share in taxes, so it's not bolstering the economy in that way either. It's putting money in a handful of pockets.

@StumpTownStu

 Seems to be the current case with pretty much all commodities right now as well.

America has a large public water sewer system. The sewage treatment plant should be turned into a biofuel production and energy plant. It utilizing methane and rendering water and carbon dioxide hence an improvement in the green house gas and carbon neutral.  

We need to utilize recycling systems. If we can burn coal with advanced emmisio. Systems than we can burn plastic in a fiber form. Instead of throwing it away burn it to produce energy.  

Yes solar and wind hydro power are the holy trail of green energy system's but the price maintanience and regulations do put this out of reach for individuals. However finding energy production wha t would be pollution and waste is a good step in the right direction. 

Sewage treatment plants can use digesters (very big upfront capital costs) to reduce the organic material in sludge to methane and CO2. The methane is then scrubbed, dewatered, etc. so it can be burned. MOST ALL sewage treatment plants use all the heat/energy from burning the methane to heat the digester (required) and the rest used to heat onsite buildings or run a generator that supplies some power to the facility. RARELY does any of this energy leave the plant as there is not enough to give out. Nor can it power the entire facility. 

Landfills also tap methane from capped landfills and power generators that feed into the grid. Several of these landfills had accepted sewage sludge in the past to be buried with the trash. Sewage sludge is a great seed for methane production in a landfill. https://drawdown.org/solutions/landfill-methane-capture#:~:text=Landfill%20methane%20can%20be%20tapped,that%20might%20otherwise%20be%20used.

As far as oil companies not paying their fair share, I don't really know. Folks with agendas against oil companies say they don't, folks in favor of oil companies say they do. Here's one; https://www.txoga.org/new-record-texas-oil-and-gas-industry-paid-16-3-billion-in-taxes-and-state-royalties-in-2019-most-in-texas-history/

Everybody picks a side a runs with it. 

From a purely economic viewpoint, there are very good reasons to do away with this tax altogether.  Studies show even for unskilled laborers there would be a 12% pay increase.  One proponent of this has suggested any difference could be made up on individual shareholders, etc.

The oil companies profit is also just another talking point of sorts.  Oil generally run in the 6% range -- as opposed to say Apple, which would be around 20%.  A small company --which these folks claim to love so much more than big companies -- would struggle with a profit margin this low.

Folks just love to hate any big corporation and do not even know why -- other than what they hear others say.  Folks just need to do a bit more research into these two subjects and form their own 'opinions'.

@Raiders22

 6% is a good profit margin on an industry that size, so please spare the forum the mind fuck. Of course a small business couldn't operate at such a low margin. Are you comparing a diner, a dry cleaners, to what, a trillion dollar industry? For context, Tesla, on of the more valuable companies in the country, had a profit margin of 4.47% last quarter. And i've owned Tesla for years. That's one of the most profitable quarters I have seen. It's always boo hoo for the big corporations. They struggle so much. They need tax breaks. It'll trickle down. Even laborers would get a 12% pay bump. It's horse shit. Those unskilled laborers could get a 12% bump as is and these companies would still be profitable. As far as tech companies go, they're far more egregious than the oil industry. The oil industry aren't bad in my book. This thread wasn't really about if they pay a fair far taxes. It was about if we produce enough oil domestically. If price hikes are legitimate or market manipulation. And if the oil industry should have carte blanche to just drill anywhere they please on public lands.

Few typos in this post. Out of character for me. Was watching the end of the game.

The size is not the issue.  The way people feel about the larger-sized ones is the issue.  No one thinks of restaurants the same way they do pharmaceutical companies for example.

It is not an individual company you want to compare.  For example, I am very bearish on Tesla and have been for some time and have been shorting it.  So, you cannot pick one company out of the industry to use for comparison.

The point is the industries that folks tend to not like and want to ‘regulate’ are whole sectors not individual diners or individual car companies.

The issue is the oil industry ranks very far down (industry-wise) in profit margin.  Yet, folks tend to think they are way up there.

Part of it is psychological, for sure.  People think, rightly or wrongly, that they ‘need or deserve’ certain things.  Great medicine, great cars, huge houses to heat and cool, etc.  Then they get upset and seem to feel they are getting gouged by a certain industry — when, in fact, the numbers do not show this.

Then if you say the profit margin is very low compared to other industries—they switch the argument.

They then say they just make enough profit for an industry that size.  Then when you show them, economically, that this sentiment is also incorrect—they switch the argument, again.

They then say that they make enough money and that no company or sector should make that much total money.

This is the same type of argument you get from people that used to say there should be no millionaires.  Nowadays, a million is not what it used to be.  So, now they say there should be no billionaires.

It is just lazy logic and faulty reasoning.

Why should there not be billionaires?  Just because one group wants to stifle ambitious or creative people and make everyone equally non-ambitious, or whatever word you choose?

Why should one industry be vilified more than many, many others when they have a low profit margin and economics prove they are not gouging?  They are producing — in tremendous volume — a very much needed resource.  But it is okay for, say tobacco or beverage, to have a tremendous profit margin.

There is more than the psychological aspect also.  There is, with the oil industry, an underlying political agenda that has seeped in as well.

“As the table below shows, the Integrated Oil and Gas industry made an average profit of 6.2 cents per dollar of sales, which ranks #114 out of 215 industries by profit margin, and puts oil companies right in the middle of industries by profitability.

If the Senate Finance Committee wants to investigate "excessive" or "windfall" profits, they might consider going after some of the other industries that have benefited from higher commodity prices and achieved much higher profit margins than oil (at 6.2%), like silver (44.7%), copper (24%), gold (21%), and industrial metals (21%) and lumber (17.7%).”

“It must be all those juicy breaks that have motivated big oil to produce so much oil that we have increased our energy deficit 500% in the last 30 years. Right.

Lets be honest. Your government wants oil to produce less, drive gas to $8 a gallon and you to ride a bike. Aint green great!”

“Big oil has been a whipping boy for liberal politicians ever since they realized there were public opinion gains to be made by aggressively deriding their so-called windfall profits. All half truths and lies dreamed up by liberals. This chart simply substantiates was most intelligent individuals have known all along. Political corruption in equals political bs rhetoric out!”

“High volume turnover coupled with an incredibly high capital investment base.

The story I share with those who will listen is this:

If you invest $100 and make a 20 percent return, you make $20 a year on your investment.

If I invest $1000 and make a 10 percent return on it, I make $100 on the capital invested.

Is my return "greedy" and "obscene" because it's five times your return? Indeed, it most certainly is fivefold more that what you get.

Taking it a step further, I have the option of investing my money in many places around the world. If so, and one wants me to invest in the USA, why would you vilify me for spending so much capital here, along with the well-paying jobs and opportunities that go with it?”

“Agree completely..I have pointed out to whiners for years that if you made this kind of return in other industries you would be fired. The only reason their total profit is so high is because of the volumes they handle.

Oil, natural gas, coal are valuable hydrocarbon resources that are being depleted rapidly and when gone will not be coming back. What does a barrel of say orange juice cost? I guarantee you it's a lot higher than $100 but I don't see the posturing cretins that inhabit the senate investigating that. Left to me oil would not be

less than $200/bbl...period. I don't care what the US, or anybody else for that matter, can "afford" to pay and I've actually heard this

absurd argument to try to justify a return $60-70/bbl again. You don't blow an irreplaceable resource for cheap simply because you can't afford to pay more.”

“So if I understand this, if they want to reign in the complaints about high oil and want to end tax breaks then drilling will slow down, maybe refining as well so it will just cause a shortage of new finds and cause oil to spike even higher.

If they make 6.2% profit, think about the volume they must be pumping to make those high profits.”

“...the largest oil companies averaged a profit margin of around 6.5%. This pales in comparison to profit margins in just about every other industry. The pharmaceutical industry, for example, routinely averages a profit margin of about 16%. The soft drink market is even more lucrative.”

“There’s a lot of widely held beliefs about net profit ratio and how it can vary based on industry, whether the industry is mature or in its growth stage, and how certain business models function. This leads to lots of justifications and poorly made assumptions.”

“The big takeaway here is this: the stereotypes about different business models didn’t hold as true as generally believed.

People think that tech stocks should average 40% margins since the cost of computer based technology is so low, while big grocery chains can get away with sub 3% margins because they are simply very capital intensive and always will be.”

“Knowing these key takeaways about net profit ratio provide a somewhat sombering conclusion. That is, there’s no magic ratio about margins that tell us whether to buy or sell.

A business can create great profits and stock performance on either low margins or high margins. We can truly understand this if we understand how stocks generally trade.”

No biggie on typos.  I’m not the grammar police on here, as much as I would like to be.  But I get that this is just a forum for some back and forth.  So, I know as we throw stuff on here there will be some typos.  

Disappointed, in a way, that I don’t think we are seeing a full-strength Giannis in this series.  I have been saying all along I thought they were a team built for the regular season and not the playoffs.

I thought this was his chance to get a title with Nets, Clippers, Lakers all out.  

Still some basketball left — so we shall see.  

Didn’t intend to hijack the thread.  

I get the political bent from folks.  But what I fail to understand is the lack of a grasp of economics.  

No reasonable economist — or a first-year student — would even attempt to make some of the points I see in some of these political threads on here.  

That is why I included some of the quotes and comments.  Maybe it will interest folks to study up in this area.  

@Raiders22

 You're trying to win an argument with whataboutism. "...but the pharmaceutical companies..." Is anyone holding up Big Pharma as some bastion of economic integrity?  You've attempted to change the narrative to fit an agenda. Personally, I haven't complained about a gas price hike. The people who do try to blame the ceasing of construction of a yet operational leg of a pipeline and the market manipulation of said industry. You talk about orange juice? If orange growers thought the price of OJ wasn't to their liking, would they shut down an orchard or two until it fit their liking? Shut down a processing plant for maintenance? Does the orange juice industry receive the subsidies the oil industry receives? Do orange growers get access to public lands to grow oranges? Nobody is attacking the oil industry but they do receive a ton of "too big to fail" type tax incentives and subsidies. And so do farmers. Frankly, some industries are necessary and therefore need to be propped up but to attempt to spin the narrative as if the industry is just eeking by. To attempt to frame it against other, unrelated industries, is complete horseshit. We're not talking about other industries. My stance is not that the oil industry is evil. Their not amazon, making a profit off cheaply made chinese bullshit and overworked staff. They produce a necessary commodity and they spread the wealth. Energy jobs are good jobs. My point was simply that price hikes have more to do with market manipulation (not always by us, often by other oil producing cartels). That is has little to do with stopping construction on an additional leg of a very much still operational pipeline system. It has little to do with ceasing permits for public lands. Sometimes you just have to pump the breaks. Oil is a very finite commodity. So we'll have to explore other energy sources at some point. That's a fact. It also means we'll eventually have to open more public lands for drilling but I believe that at a certain point, you have to pump the breaks.

Since you love to point out the oil industries relatively low (not low, relatively low) profit margin, would it be safe to say that without subsidies and current tax rates, the industry wouldn't be able to maintain itself? We're propping it up? Then the fact that they are making any profit is a blessing. And believe me, they are making a profit. No tears need be shed for the oil industry. Now if you want to talk precious metals, pharmaceuticals, well that's an entirely different brand of evil but I don't think the spirit of this thread was to paint the oil industry in a bad light, per se. Some people (not me) complained about gas prices. My role was just to say we should all be clear on what really leads to gas price hikes. Frankly, we don't even know what high gas prices are in this country.

@StumpTownStu

 6% profit margin sucks no matter the industry or size of the business.

Most people who’ve never been in business for themselves don’t even know how to calculate accurate profit margin. They think if you got a $106 return on $100 that’s 6%

The guy’s point was that gas was high.  You say it is high every summer.  Then ask when did you not pay high prices in summer.  Ask when was it this high.  Seven summers ago.  

Then it veered off into the oil industries being all about profit and manipulating their prices.  When this is shown not to be the case it veers off into subsidies and orange juice and Tesla.  

There are many articles that address all of this.  People always want to drag up the subsidies.  I suggest they do more reading on this subject also.  

The oil business is doing nothing other businesses are not doing.  They are not taking any more advantage than other businesses do.

They just happen to be an industry people tend not to like and now there is a political agenda behind it also.  

Then people shouldn't complain about the price of gas. I wasn't. And you would be shocked at some of the easily recognizable "Big Businesses" that operate at below 6%. Raider here tries to play word soup and compare the oil industry to fucking Coca-Cola, which is complete ridiculous. Put sugar water, and CO² in a can and yeah, you're going to have high profit margins. It's sugar water in a can.

I think the narrative of this thread has shifted. Some people, not me, complained about gas prices. They presented their reasoning for hikes in said prices. All I said was that the oil industry is notorious for manipulating it's own prices. No one refuted this. I also said pumping more dirty ass Tar Sands crude from Canada through are country, much of it in route to China, isn't necessarily the answer. My third point was that opening more Federal land to drilling isn't necessarily the answer either. That industry lobbyist will have you believe it is, but that it all boils down to profit. And even at 6.5%, with the sheer volume we are talking, those profits are huge. I can't believe raider has the audacity to attempt to garner sympathy for the oil industry. I have no beef with the industry. As I said, they spread the wealth better than most. Sympathy though? For the oil industry?

I am not holding up pharmaceuticals??  I was saying you guys do the same thing with them you do with the oil industry.  I guess I was not clear enough on that.