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This is who you elected....thank you from the bottom of my heart for F'ing us all

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Posted: #51
I just find it fascinating that you don't think Obama has any responsibility for the Syrian crisis, but are already blaming Trump for what might happen with North Korea-
 
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Posted: #52
Quote Originally Posted by Dsn150:

I just find it fascinating that you don't think Obama has any responsibility for the Syrian crisis, but are already blaming Trump for what might happen with North Korea-

Correct your analysis please, I've stated it several times.

I blame Trump with how he has insulted in public and done the wrong thing with regards to that leader. Trump is a bull, he lacks diplomacy and tact...he knows this about himself but for sure it is harmful to us as a country...in MANY areas, not just NK.

The underlying issues regarding Syria are that they are led by a dictator and religion is a massively destructive force there...neither of those have much to do with our political decisions.

It would be like me blaming Trump that NK has a dictator..well I dont do that it makes no sense...Trump isnt at fault for NK being run by a dictator...

So get your analysis correct please..
 
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Posted: #53
So Trump is a blowhard and mishandling the N Korea situation

Obama really can't be held responsible for any of the Syria fkups, because, you know, what are you gonna do? It's the Middle East.....
 
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Posted: #54
Quote Originally Posted by Dsn150:

So Trump is a blowhard and mishandling the N Korea situation

Obama really can't be held responsible for any of the Syria fkups, because, you know, what are you gonna do? It's the Middle East.....

Oh you are smarter than this...really I know you are.

What is the most deeply rooted social issue and the one issue that has held the centuries of our existence?

No politician can change the hatred that is religion...nobody can change this and until this planet is destroyed there will be religious bred hatred from person to person. There has been more lives lost due to religious differences than ANY political misunderstandings or differences.

Yeah Obama can go over there and revolutionize our minds and rid the Middle East of these thousand year issues...since he is a democrat and all he has to be the blame.

Really?

Nothing kills faster than religion. 
 
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Posted: #55
I agree with everything you just posted about religion- I would probably have gone farther...

But- the US still took action-took sides-drew a red line, etc- surely you would agree those were mishandled...
 
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Posted: #56
Quote Originally Posted by Dsn150:

I agree with everything you just posted about religion- I would probably have gone farther...

But- the US still took action-took sides-drew a red line, etc- surely you would agree those were mishandled...

I dont evaluate a thousands of years issue based on an even eight year window.

Our little political interferences cant change what is embedded inside the souls of those people on all sides. Outside the US actually joining and supporting one religious side and aiding in the genocide of the other religious group for a period of hundreds of years until that side is destroyed completely I dont see how our little involvement has much bearing.

Its like Iraq...we went in there and actually destroyed the fabric that kept the groups apart and created an environment for this fighting to erupt...we did not help at all, we harmed the real destruction of innocent people as we unleashed the religious fighting. 


 
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Posted: #57
I agree-
When you say "we", who specifically do you mean-
I put Iraq on GWB- actually probably more Dick Cheney, but in the end, his administration-

But I put Syria squarely on the Obama administration-

As you say, and I agree, we had little to no business to be involved in either- we broke, but we didn't fix....
 
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Posted: #58
Obama's strategy in Syria was catastphic to the citizens there

 
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Posted: #59
Quote Originally Posted by Dsn150:

I agree-
When you say "we", who specifically do you mean-
I put Iraq on GWB- actually probably more person Cheney, but in the end, his administration-

But I put Syria squarely on the Obama administration-

As you say, and I agree, we had little to no business to be involved in either- we broke, but we didn't fix....

Well unfortunately WE is this country...even now with the big mistake in office this country is WE...so WE means anything this country does.

I think Iraq was a massive mistake and you know that as we were posting here during that time. I dont see how we can kind of meddle a little into such a massive issue and expect a good result.

Syria wasnt Obama's problem or fault, I dont know how as a leader of this country we could expect a good result unless we were to commit to a course of strategy that would be massive in cost, time and lives lost. 

Changing the mindset of people as a collective takes decades, hundreds of years if it even has a chance at working at all.
 
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Posted: #60
Am I on the wrong forum, I thought we were supposed to be analysing college football?  My Bad.  Last I checked Trump won, get over it!
 
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Posted: #61
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


There has been more lives lost due to religious differences than ANY political misunderstandings or differences.

Nothing kills faster than religion. 

I would ask your definition of 'political' here.  It depends on what all you include.  It is akin to the folks that claim religious wars have killed more people than secular wars.  Obviously that is not true, and not even close.  But if you say 'strictly politics', that is one thing; but if you say 'social, political, cultural, power, territorial, etc.' differences, that is a whole different deal.  People oversimplify things.  It is human nature to do this because it makes it easier to understand and deal with.  But I am not so sure it is that simple in this case.  If things worked out well we should give credit to the folks that helped it happen.  If things did not work out so well, it is okay to lay some blame at their feet.  They are big boys.  They can take the heat. 
 
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Posted: #62
Religion and politics are intwined. It is what it is.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE OBAMA CAGES!
 
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Posted: #63
Quote Originally Posted by StumpTownStu:

Religion and politics are intwined. It is what it is.

This is 100% correct...and why post 63 isnt cut and dry at all.

Sure secular, cultural and geographic fighting happens, happened...but the root of many of these disagreements are the fragments of religion, the decisions made, the hatred in our minds are due to our upbring and biases ingrained due to religion.

So yeah I will say that religion kills more than anything else because people take their religious beliefs with them to work, engaging with others, how you treat your neighbors etc etc and religion often times teaches a very negative way of how to treat someone who does not believe what you do.
 
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Posted: #64
Quote Originally Posted by Dsn150:

I just find it fascinating that you don't think Obama has any responsibility for the Syrian crisis, but are already blaming Trump for what might happen with North Korea-

Actually, Wall has been critical of the US policy the Mideast through the last three presidents.

Personally, and I've stated it many times here,  Obama's policy in the Mideast was uneven at best and a failure at worst. Religious theocracy breeds dictatorship and that hasn't changed since the start of time. When we remove and weaken one dictator, we empower the brutality that brings even more horrific results. Egypt is a prime example. I have no love for Assad but his leadership did not hurt America. Libya had renounced terrorist affiliations and support. I get it. These leaders do horrific things to their people, as their predecessors and as will their successors. 

Spending millions and risking lives to achieve the same results is counterintuitive to a cohesive policy. Trump seems no different than Obama who was no different than Bush in that regard.


 
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Posted: #65
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


This is 100% correct...and why post 63 isnt cut and dry at all.

Sure secular, cultural and geographic fighting happens, happened...but the root of many of these disagreements are the fragments of religion, the decisions made, the hatred in our minds are due to our upbring and biases ingrained due to religion.

So yeah I will say that religion kills more than anything else because people take their religious beliefs with them to work, engaging with others, how you treat your neighbors etc etc and religion often times teaches a very negative way of how to treat someone who does not believe what you do.

Sure there are a mixture of reasons and causes.  And some also involve religious and non-religious reasons.  But to plainly state that religion causes more deaths is incorrect is all I was pointing out.  Hatred and bias are not taught by religion either.  That is very much learned.  According to one quick check of a list I saw someone took the time to compile:   WWII by itself outnumbered all religious wars.  I am not saying a huge amount are not religious-based; just saying it is not most. 

The sum of all of the (maximum) values is: 74,672,001 deaths. (A lot of deaths caused by religion!)


This world is corrupt no matter how wars began. Wars are bad and pointing fingers at the people who caused them isn't going to solve our problems.

The sum of all of the values is 307,805,040 deaths.

74,672,001 < 307,805,040

Statistically speaking, the casualties of secular wars combined are greater than the casualties of religious wars combined. But war is not good in general. Instead we can solve our problems with peace.

 
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Posted: #66
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:


Sure there are a mixture of reasons and causes.  And some also involve religious and non-religious reasons.  But to plainly state that religion causes more deaths is incorrect is all I was pointing out.  Hatred and bias are not taught by religion either.  That is very much learned.  According to one quick check of a list I saw someone took the time to compile:   WWII by itself outnumbered all religious wars.  I am not saying a huge amount are not religious-based; just saying it is not most. 

The sum of all of the (maximum) values is: 74,672,001 deaths. (A lot of deaths caused by religion!)


This world is corrupt no matter how wars began. Wars are bad and pointing fingers at the people who caused them isn't going to solve our problems.

The sum of all of the values is 307,805,040 deaths.

74,672,001 < 307,805,040

Statistically speaking, the casualties of secular wars combined are greater than the casualties of religious wars combined. But war is not good in general. Instead we can solve our problems with peace.

The highlighted portion was the quote.  Realized that may not have been clear.
 
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Posted: #67
My point is all things secular are tied to the base instinct of man and you are not really understanding religion if you think it does not breed/foster hate...it does.

For Christians the OT is FULL of this type of behavior...the "If you are not of Israel" then they go and wage war against them sort of thing...its the kill or be killed approach and it is squarely rooted in most all religions...not all but most.

The reason why religion is filled with hate and anger and war is because it is our carnal nature, it is how humans treat each other deep down. And it is why changing these attitudes and feelings is extremely difficult if not impossible.

Secular wars stem from power and hatred, many times the desire to wage war with another has to do with what those leaders were taught and the values/morals they have and that for sure is tied to religion. And MANY secular wars were backed/supported by religion.
 
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Posted: #68
stick to the picks man, not the politics
 
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Posted: #69
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


Actually, Wall has been critical of the US policy the Mideast through the last three presidents.

Personally, and I've stated it many times here,  Obama's policy in the Mideast was uneven at best and a failure at worst. Religious theocracy breeds dictatorship and that hasn't changed since the start of time. When we remove and weaken one dictator, we empower the brutality that brings even more horrific results. Egypt is a prime example. I have no love for Assad but his leadership did not hurt America. Libya had renounced terrorist affiliations and support. I get it. These leaders do horrific things to their people, as their predecessors and as will their successors. 

Spending millions and risking lives to achieve the same results is counterintuitive to a cohesive policy. Trump seems no different than Obama who was no different than Bush in that regard.



Actually, Wall has refused to acknowledge (as you did) that the US policy in Syria during the Obama administration was (in your words, which I think is well said) uneven at best and a failure at worst...

He actually has avoided the question altogether, choosing to lecture on the ills of religion and decades long strife, that a US president couldn't possibly have influence over....
 
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Posted: #70
Quote Originally Posted by Dsn150:


Actually, Wall has refused to acknowledge (as you did) that the US policy in Syria during the Obama administration was (in your words, which I think is well said) uneven at best and a failure at worst...

He actually has avoided the question altogether, choosing to lecture on the ills of religion and decades long strife, that a US president couldn't possibly have influence over....

See that IS my answer...you want to finger point at a democrat and their approach and my answer is our policy is immaterial it means nothing in the scheme of things. I also said that unless we really want to commit time, money the loss of life for a VERY VERY long time then whatever policy is thrown out there means zippo. It does nothing of value especially long term.

Sorry I am not interested in partisan blame yet that is all you seem to want in the form of an answer....democrats bad, repubs good, repubs bad democrats good...sorry I am not interested in that it is beneath the real issue and adds nothing of value.
 
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Posted: #71
So, Bush was wrong in Iraq- Obama was dealt a hand he had no control over, so no harm, no foul- and Trump is totally mismanaging North Korea.

But, we don't want to get into a Democrat vs Republican thing...

Got it...

LMAO- at least your hypocrisy is front and center...

 
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Posted: #72
Quote Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

My point is all things secular are tied to the base instinct of man and you are not really understanding religion if you think it does not breed/foster hate...it does.

For Christians the OT is FULL of this type of behavior...the "If you are not of Israel" then they go and wage war against them sort of thing...its the kill or be killed approach and it is squarely rooted in most all religions...not all but most.

The reason why religion is filled with hate and anger and war is because it is our carnal nature, it is how humans treat each other deep down. And it is why changing these attitudes and feelings is extremely difficult if not impossible.

Secular wars stem from power and hatred, many times the desire to wage war with another has to do with what those leaders were taught and the values/morals they have and that for sure is tied to religion. And MANY secular wars were backed/supported by religion.
I thought your point was religion killed more people than anything else. But if you want to change your point and say most killing is influenced by religion, I can't see that as true either. Certainly there are some that abuse religion as with any tool or power. I grant you that.  If you think religion fosters hate and bias, it could be argued very effectively that you truly do not understand religion either.  I also grant you that folks are born inherently evil --- no doubt about it.  Even those folks that have never even heard of religion as we are discussing it.  But for sure religion has done more good than bad.  Many more people that were bad and became religious have done good than people that used religion as an excuse to do evil.  And of course if you read the OT in a vacuum and select just what you want it can appear that way. But what about the good or the NT. Or even other religions. 
So now, no matter who is president, no matter the war --- they have to be excused by your logic.  Since all of wars and differences are deep-down religious based there is nothing any president (Bush, Obama, or Trump) can do right. 
I would also wonder the obvious question about your bias and hatred of CEOs, corporations, Trump, religion, and most republicans and their ideals. What religion led you to those? 
 
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Posted: #73
Quote Originally Posted by Raiders22:

  But for sure religion has done more good than bad.  Many more people that were bad and became religious have done good than people that used religion as an excuse to do evil. 

You cannot possibly prove this conjecture but there is ample evidence of the religion being used to kill millions and millions since 1935. 
 
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Posted: #74
Religion is likely the most destructive force in history, and remains so today-
Generally egocentric (all about the individual- what can I do to reach "salvation")- never truly altruistic, always ripe with hypocrisy....

What's not to like...

LMAO
 
 
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Posted: #75
Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


You cannot possibly prove this conjecture but there is ample evidence of the religion being used to kill millions and millions since 1935. 

Yeah I am not of the opinion that religion can change a person to the degree he is referencing here. If anything religion suppresses true emotions and feelings and unless you are inclined to yield to suppression, any "change" is short lived.

To me religion can motivate a person who is inclined to be motivated in this way...similar to how some people can be motivated going to a rally or some are motivated by reading a book, some are motivated by doing physical activity...different things motivate different people. 

Religion has some great features such as family values, believing in something greater than yourself but you really dont NEED religion to find that out, but for those who find the motivation in going and listening then good for them of course but I am not of the opinion that religion on its own can alter behavior unless you are motivated by such an approach.
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