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If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:04 AM ET #1151

Seventy sevens continued...

Now, 173,880 days from February 27 - March 28, 444 BC, lands us at March 24 - April 22, AD 33.

According to this prophecy, the Messiah would show up, present Himself as Messiah to the nation and then be “cut off” some time between March 24 and April 22, AD 33. Jesus Christ presented Himself to the nation of Israel on Palm Sunday, March 27, was crucified four days later on April 1, or “Preparation Day” (the annual day on which the Passover Lamb was slain), and rose from the dead on Sunday, April 3, AD 33, all within our 30-day range of dates.

The prophecy then goes on to say that subsequent to the Messiah being “cut off,” “the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Within one generation of Christ’s crucifixion, Titus razed Jerusalem and destroyed the temple.

There is some debate about the exact date of the decree that began the 483 years. There is also debate as to whether the days should be counted on our modern 365-day calendars, or the 360-day lunar calendar that was normally used in ancient times. Whichever the case, Daniel's prophecy concludes very close to the time Jesus Christ was being crucified in Jerusalem.

If we knew all the exact dates of Daniel's prophecy and timing, we would find it would land exactly on the very day of Christ's death. Through God revealing it to him, the Prophet Daniel predicted the very day of Christ's death—over 400 years before it occurred.

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:12 AM ET #1152

Quantum leap,

"Why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""

The actual text states “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46).

This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion.

It has been difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God.

It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient - God still loved Him.

In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.

However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5).

He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).

He was made a sin-offering, and He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God.

It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained, that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be saved from eternal death.

In those awful moments, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity.

It was at this time that 2 Corinthians 5:21 occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

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Quantum leap,

"Why did Jesus say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""

The actual text states “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46).

This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion.

It has been difficult to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God.

It is certain that God approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and obedient - God still loved Him.

In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.

However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5).

He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).

He was made a sin-offering, and He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God.

It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained, that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be saved from eternal death.

In those awful moments, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity.

It was at this time that 2 Corinthians 5:21 occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Jesus became sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces, except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.

Quantum_Leap

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:22 AM ET #1153

Quote Originally Posted by Crashdavis565:

what is the big deal?

I mean he is the son of God, why does it matter that he gave his human life on the cross. What is a human life worth in the Kingdom of God?

Is this really that big of a sacrifice? Think about it. If he dies at 27 or at 77 what is the difference? If he dies in his sleep or on the cross, what is the big deal? He is the son of God for crying out loud, what would the worldly issues matter for his life when he will spend the next 10,000 years at the right hand of God?

Puzzling.

Your questions were great, and obviously thought provoking.

They also lead you to the answer that you are suggesting, that is perhaps also puzzling--there is no meaning at all in a sacrifice, except for those caught up in the sacrifice. It is meaningless.

Additionally, it can be argued that Jesus "the Christ" never died in a crucifixion ceremony at all. It is puzzling the ceremony transpired on Passover--a time in those days that was severely supervised by religious authorities and the general public. In all likelihood Roman guards were bribed by Jesus' wealthier cohorts, and his living body was hustled away before the law observing person woke up the next day to kill Jesus themselves.

Noticeable is the challenge to Jewish laws and authorities, but utmost respect and submission for Roman law and authority.

You are correct in your suggestion and there is not much need to dilly dally with biblical transcripts that politically left out gnostic gospels (notably the Gospel of Thomas). The religion built up around Jesus is used by men for their own gain and to keep the masses in a haze so they cannot feel the truth of the essence of being.

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:24 AM ET #1154

Quantum Leap,

You said "You don't really know that you have free will, or whether there are conditions that are determining your existence. You cannot presume you know God's intent."

If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will.

The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases.

Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature.

For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability.

The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely.

In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23).

Every call to repent is a call to choose.

The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40).

Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good?

It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16).

It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work.

At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

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Quantum Leap,

You said "You don't really know that you have free will, or whether there are conditions that are determining your existence. You cannot presume you know God's intent."

If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will.

The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases.

Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature.

For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability.

The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely.

In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23).

Every call to repent is a call to choose.

The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40).

Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good?

It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16).

It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work.

At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

Quantum_Leap

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:28 AM ET #1155

Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:

Quantum Leap,

You said "Let me ask you this: What kind of father of God would hide himself in this way?"

Jehovah revealed himself over and over again throughout the Old Testament.

Then, he went above and beyond to tell the people ALL throughout the Old Testament that he was going to come as the messiah to save the world, then fulfilled every prophecy in the Old Testament in Jesus Christ.

There are many Old Testament prophecies about Jesus Christ. Some interpreters place the number of Messianic prophecies in the hundreds.

Here are a few that are considered the clearest and most important concerning the Old Testament predicting the coming of Jesus Christ?

C'mon my friend. You seem reasonable enough. You don't REALLY believe in a virgin birth; that these ancient ill advised scribes were writing anything more than documents to control the Israeli tribes from outside tribal influences (certainly NOT the "word of God); that someone was actually killed , then flew around like an angel...and so on....?

No christian for that matter REALLY believes in it. Come off it, man. Stop playing games. Come to life man. This is it. Forget the future judgement--this is what they tell you the "bad guys" will get, so that they can steal, lie and murder behind your backs (US government). Live NOW--not for tomorrow.

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:28 AM ET #1156

Quantum Leap,

You said " Please lay off the rest of us--stop trying to realize your Earthly prizes--such as political power, economic power (a la Joel Osteen and his 'prosperity preaching' antics that influence millions) or territorial gains (the Catholic church is the largest landowner in the world), or influence world leaders (need I give examples throughout history of christian exploits, tortures, genocides...???)."

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this!!!

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:36 AM ET #1157

C'mon my friend. You seem reasonable enough. You don't REALLY believe in a virgin birth; that these ancient ill advised scribes were writing anything more than documents to control the Israeli tribes from outside tribal influences (certainly NOT the "word of God); that someone was actually killed , then flew around like an angel...and so on....?

No christian for that matter REALLY believes in it. Come off it, man. Stop playing games. Come to life man. This is it. Forget the future judgement--this is what they tell you the "bad guys" will get, so that they can steal, lie and murder behind your backs (US government). Live NOW--not for tomorrow.

You made me laugh on this one!!!

But yes, I do believe fully in the virgin birth.

Agree with you about the government.

And I do live for the now, but I also don't neglect the FACT that naked I came into this world and naked I will leave.

Have you ever seen a hearse carrying a u-haul?

I know that I can die at any moment in time, so I must be prepared at ALL times!!!

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:43 AM ET #1158

Quantum Leap,

About the Virgin birth...

The doctrine of the virgin birth is crucially important (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27, 34).

The Bible describes the event this way.

In response to Mary’s question, “How will this be?” (Luke 1:34), Gabriel says, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35).

The angel encourages Joseph to not fear marrying Mary with these words: “What is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20).

Matthew states that the virgin “was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:18).

Galatians 4:4 also teaches the Virgin Birth: “God sent His Son, born of a woman.”

From these passages, it is certainly clear that Jesus’ birth was the result of the Holy Spirit working within Mary’s body.

The immaterial (the Spirit) and the material (Mary’s womb) were both involved.

Mary, of course, could not impregnate herself, and in that sense she was simply a “vessel.”

Only God could perform the miracle of the Incarnation.

However, denying a physical connection between Mary and Jesus would imply that Jesus was not truly human. Scripture teaches that Jesus was fully human, with a physical body like ours. This He received from Mary.

At the same time, Jesus was fully God, with an eternal, sinless nature (John 1:14; 1 Timothy 3:16; Hebrews 2:14-17.)

Jesus was not born in sin; that is, He had no sin nature (Hebrews 7:26). It would seem that the sin nature is passed down from generation to generation through the father (Romans 5:12, 17, 19).

The Virgin Birth circumvented the transmission of the sin nature and allowed the eternal God to become a perfect man.

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Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 1:05 AM ET #1159

Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

C'mon my friend. You seem reasonable enough. You don't REALLY believe in a virgin birth; that these ancient ill advised scribes were writing anything more than documents to control the Israeli tribes from outside tribal influences (certainly NOT the "word of God); that someone was actually killed , then flew around like an angel...and so on....?

No christian for that matter REALLY believes in it. Come off it, man. Stop playing games. Come to life man. This is it. Forget the future judgement--this is what they tell you the "bad guys" will get, so that they can steal, lie and murder behind your backs (US government). Live NOW--not for tomorrow.

Isnt it ironic how non believers accuse believers of beliefving something of a birgin birth, yet when the non believer is forced into believing the universe popped into existence from nothing?

Explain that to me bud

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Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 1:06 AM ET #1160

* Virgin birth

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Quantum_Leap

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 2:05 AM ET #1161

Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

* Virgin birth

Yeah, no mixture of blood and semen. And Jesus had brothers, so Mary had to have sex to have Jesus' brothers. But no coitus nine months prior to Jesus' birth.

To address your queston: I don't know how the universe came into being. A cosmic egg?

Your eyes can see outward (an octupus has better eyes than a human, but that was from God's intelligent design I suppose), but you cannot see behind your eyeball. Guess that's kinda what we're dealing with. The snake chasing its tail. Some say it's still creating itself endlessly.

The creation stories to explain it all are amusing anecdotes. The Bible will oneday be considered amusing--tedious but a rewarding read for those with a cultural-historical background in Near East Mythologies.

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Rostos

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 2:41 AM ET #1162

Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Leap:

Yeah, no mixture of blood and semen. And Jesus had brothers, so Mary had to have sex to have Jesus' brothers. But no coitus nine months prior to Jesus' birth.

To address your queston: I don't know how the universe came into being. A cosmic egg?

Your eyes can see outward (an octupus has better eyes than a human, but that was from God's intelligent design I suppose), but you cannot see behind your eyeball. Guess that's kinda what we're dealing with. The snake chasing its tail. Some say it's still creating itself endlessly.

The creation stories to explain it all are amusing anecdotes. The Bible will oneday be considered amusing--tedious but a rewarding read for those with a cultural-historical background in Near East Mythologies.

You are ducking in between atheism and agnosticism depending on what suits your argument. It is a logically inconsistent position.

On the one hand, you state you dont believe in God, then when put into a corner, you state you dont know.

You rule out God on one hand, then say you dont know.....

Inconsistent logic

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:08 PM ET #1163

Quantum Leap,

You stated "The Bible will oneday be considered amusing--tedious but a rewarding read for those with a cultural-historical background in Near East Mythologies."

This is a false comparison!!!

There are a number of voices claiming that the accounts of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament are simply myths and were the result of the writers borrowing stories from pagan mythology, such as the stories of Osiris, Dionysus, Adonis, Attis, and Mithras. The claim is that these mythological figures are essentially the same story as what the New Testament ascribes to Jesus Christ of Nazareth. As Dan Brown claims in, The Da Vinci Code, “Nothing in Christianity is original.”

However, once the facts are examined, these claims are proven false. To discover the truth about these particular claims and others like them, it is important to: (1) unearth the history behind their assertions, (2) examine the actual historical portrayals of the false gods being compared to Christ, (3) expose the logical fallacies that the authors are making, and (4) look at why the New Testament Gospels can be trusted as accurately depicting the true and historical Jesus Christ.

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matt4000

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Posted: Nov. 10, 2011 - 12:12 PM ET #1164

Quantum Leap continued...

First, the claims of Jesus as a myth or an exaggeration originated in the writings of 19th century liberal German theologians. Their claim was essentially that Jesus was nothing more than a copy of the widespread worship of dying and rising fertility gods in various places—Tammuz in Mesopotamia, Adonis in Syria, Attis in Asia Minor, and Osiris in Egypt.

None of these works ever advanced in the realm of academia and religious thought because their assertions were investigated by theologians and scholars and determined to be completely false and baseless. It has only been in the late twentieth and early twenty-first century that these assertions have been resurrected, primarily due to the rise of the internet and mass distribution of information that has no historical foundation or accountability.

This leads us to the next area of investigation—do the mythological gods of antiquity really mirror the person of Jesus Christ? As an example, the Zeitgeist movie makes these claims about the Egyptian god Horus:

• He was born on December 25th of a virgin - Isis Mary

• A star in the East proclaimed his arrival

• Three kings came to adore the new-born “savior”

• He became a child prodigy teacher at age 12

• At age 30 he was “baptized” and began a “ministry”

• Horus had twelve “disciples”

• Horus was betrayed

• He was crucified

• He was buried for three days

• He was resurrected after three days

However, when the actual writings about Horus are competently examined, this is what we find:

• Horus was born to Isis; there is no mention in history of her being called “Mary.” Moreover, Mary is our anglicized form of her real name ‘Miryam’ or Miriam. “Mary” was not even used in the original texts of Scripture.

• Isis was not a virgin; she was the widow of Osiris and conceived Horus with Osiris.

• Horus was born during month of Khoiak (Oct/Nov), not December 25. Further, there is no mention in the Bible as to Christ’s actual birth date.

• There is no record of three kings visiting Horus at his birth. The Bible never states the actual number of magi that came to see Christ.

• Horus is not a “savior” in any shape or form; he did not die for anyone.

• There are no accounts of Horus being a teacher at the age of 12.

• Horus was not “baptized.” The only account of Horus that involves water is one story where Horus is torn to pieces, with Isis requesting the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was placed into.

• Horus did not have a “ministry.”

• Horus did not have 12 disciples. According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers and some indications of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him.

• There is no account of Horus being betrayed by a friend.

• Horus did not die by crucifixion. There are various accounts of Horus’ death, but none of them involve crucifixion.

• There is no account of Horus being buried for three days.

• Horus was not resurrected. There is no account of Horus coming out of the grave with the body he went in with. Some accounts have Horus/Osiris being brought back to life by Isis and going to be the lord of the underworld.

So when compared side by side, Jesus and Horus bear little, if any, resemblance to one another. Another popular comparison done by those claiming that Jesus Christ is a myth is with Jesus and Mithras. All the above claims of Horus are applied to Mithras (e.g. born of a virgin, being crucified, rising in three days, etc.).