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If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

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Posted: #201

Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:

JESUS DID NOT EXIST  

i actually believ he did exist....he was the best Houdini, David Copperfiled, and Siegfred and Roy of his tim....one of the best scam artist and magians to ever live....lets not forget, outside of gambling, religion is the next biggest business in the world, and it's based on nothing but hearsay and trickery

 
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Posted: #202
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:


Your bible jesus that "rose from the dead" and "walked on water" and "died for our sins"
great story though

trickery..system...trickery...

 
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Posted: #203
Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

Thats right, you have NO PROOF......

You have NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE

When you say you have no proof, but you make a comment based on your belief, the shortfall between emprical evidence and belief is called faith. Just like theists, atheists have faith as well.

You dont believe the Christian God exists, as you have NO EMPIRICAL evidence, your conviction requires faith.

Ohterwise, if you dont  like to have the term "faith" associated with you, then you must be an agnostic, in that case, dont bag out anyones religion

u actually got one right Rostos...i am agnostic and with that , I dont want to have you try to sell me your snake oil. Until you have proff, shut up
 
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Posted: #204
Quote Originally Posted by Droxside:



You do not get it, ate up with Dogma..There are great truths in the bible (many stolen from past civilizations for your benefit), that does not mean theer are not fallacies as well. If you cannot understand this concept there is little hope for you as a rule...If believing in fairy tells gives you 100% belief in something then I envy you, I wish it were that easy for me, but unfortunately I am awake...
 
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Posted: #205
Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:

if i may chime in to both camps...

the problem is that you guys are using Enlightment/Cartesian/modern thought to argue here (Christians/non-Christians alike).  under this paradigm, there is an assumption that if you are going to be rational, you have to be unbiased, independant, objective, and free from the influence of tradition.  so pure, un-biased, neutral, objective reasoning is the only thing that counts for rationality and knowledge...under a modernistic paradigm.

so the outcome of this is that all things "religious" or pertaining to tradition are characterized as irrationality.

what post-modern thought does is say that all of that is myth.  there is no such thing as unbiased, objective rationality.  no human person can operate independent of intellectual inheritance or prior commitments.  post-modern thinkers (who have no stake in religion) have debunked the modernist paradigm.

under this "rational" discussion, you are supposed to shed everything that means something to you b/c they are tied to your gender, experience, spirituality, etc.  all those things will only taint a pure rational discussion.  (religion becomes the most taint-able...for some reason.)  the thing is that your "rational reasoning" is always someone's story & commitments pretending as if it weren't.  so if you get to bring your commitments and beliefs into this discussion, everyone should be able to do the same.  now the playing field is level when people quit pretending that their beliefs are somehow independently rational.  under a post-modernist paradigm, there is honest room to discuss religion.

all i'm saying it that there needs to be discussion on epistemology before you can talk about religion, etc.


I'm not quite understanding why this is relevant at all.. I think you're lost in your own thought
 
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Posted: #206
Quote Originally Posted by smartapple123:

If you are a non-believer it is understandable to me.  You have not read the bible, or have not tried to read it with an open mind.  As SJD has said, the bible is not just one book, but 66 books written by 40 God Inspired people.  To read the bible straight through it would take you 56 hours.

Now, for all of you non-believers, the key is to have an open mind here.  (1)Without automatically saying God cannot be true, try to understand that there is a very large possbility it can be true because most of the world believes in God.

Now, for me once i started to read the bible with an open mind, i found out for myself that there was just no way this book was a lie.  It is the truth in every way and you cannot deny the truth. 

Remember it is 66 books written by 40 different authors over a time span of 1600 years.

So for you to say its a myth or a fairy tale, you are basically saying that those (2)40 authors who wrote 66 books over a time-span of 1600 years are liars and were just making stuff up.

Well they werent.  We are all sinners, this is a fact.  Look at all the destruction and evil in the world today.  All the sickness and disease.  It is exactly as God knew it would be after man disobeyed God.  It says that in the bible.  You cannot deny that.

The thought that we came here from nothing, without any creator is ridiculous.  (3)The notion that a bunch of cells can come together from nothing and create human life and animal life is just crazy. It would be like saying the websters unabridged dictionary came about because of an explosion in a printing room or like saying a tornado can sweep through a junkyard and a boeing 757 will appear.  Point is, you would need A LOT of faith to believe that happened.

The point is, if you truly seek the truth, take a look at the bible with an open mind, and decide for yourself whether or not you think the people who wrote it were being honest and sincere.  I tell you, you will not be dissapointed.

I myself was skeptical about God before I started to read the Bible, but as i read with an open mind, I came to know for myself that these books were nothing that man coudlve done by himself.  It is history of what happened during those times in great great detail.

You will not come to know God without hearing his word.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God- Rom. 10:17

(4)Key is having an open mind, seek the truth.

 

 
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Posted: #207

WOW, You really don't know who Christ is do you? Starting a thread like this shows the battle we have within ourselves. We will never make any sense of our lives and everything that goes on in them and around them until we truely know Christ and the sacrifice God made for us when he came in the flesh of a man, lived the perfect life and bore all our shame on the Cross. Love will just be a word to us until we know the Father and the Son. Regardless of what we want to admit to, we are all longing to find God. We end up in all kinds of addictions (trying to kill the pain) looking for what only God/Christ can give us-'The knowing that we are loved no matter who we are or what we have done'. The cross is the bridge to God--a gap we can never make up on our own, it is a gift unimaginable-one we have a hard time understanding because we DO NOT DESERVE IT!

Truely seek God and he will reveal himself to you.....or you can keep floundering through life allowing each new mistake to take you deeper into the void. 

Learn who Christ is and accept his free gift of life-accept LIFE!

                                                                                                                        

 
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Posted: #208
1) So something is true if a lot of people think it? OH, ok. So considering atheists/agnostics make up about 16% of the American population... I'd say that's a lot of people, no? And how about the population of India? That's a whole SHITLOAD of non-christians... I guess that's also true. As a matter of fact, fuck it! EVERYTHING IS TRUE

2) That's exactly what we're saying. There is a whole branch of writing called "fiction..." you should look it up sometime! Interesting stuff

3) Those were two of the worst comparisons I can possibly imagine. Just because it's beyond YOUR understanding (which clearly is minimal at best), does not necessitate that it's crazy. You couldn't dream of building a computer, but people do it. Although you can't understand how, you don't say WOW that's crazy! You accept it. Why is that any different

4) I was just thinking the same about you
 
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Posted: #209
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

How is the Christian faith which is one of many religions destructive for mankind when it teaches us that sin is destructive and following the Ten Commandments is morally good for everyone's life. You are not making any sense.

Nowhere in the Holy Bible does it preach violence and we all know that violence is destructive.

Why if everyone obeyed and followed the Ten Commandments this world no doubt would be a safe world to live in for all mankind, everyone man, woman or child need not worry about crime for there would be no crime whatsoever.



The Crusades. Anyway.......
 
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Posted: #210
Quote Originally Posted by Sugarbear19:



I'm not quite understanding why this is relevant at all.. I think you're lost in your own thought

It's relevant b/c HOW we know things is the fundamental question beneath WHAT we know.  You can't answer the latter before first dealing with the former.

how about tell us...HOW do you know something is true?
 
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Posted: #211
Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



IT TELLS US IN THE BIBLE TO KILL HOMOSEXUALS!!!

It is not telling you or anyone else to kill gays today but rather during the time of Moses in the Old Testament there were punishments for disobedience.

The Lord spoke directly to Moses and said, "Give the people of Israel these instructions, which apply both to native Israelites and to the foreigners living in Israel. ---Leviticus 20:2

So those punishments applied to native Israelites and foreigners living in Israel during those times of Moses.

So don't misinterpret what it says, I mean see what happens to you today if you administer the ultimate punishment to gays, you are going to jail and face the death penalty if you live in a state that has the death penalty. I see you live in New York a liberal state so you would just get life.

Lastly please don't misunderstand that just because you are not allowed to give the ultimate punishment to gays that it means it is ok to be gay. In the eyes of the Lord Almighty it is a sin and he will deal with gays come Judgment Day.

 
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Posted: #212
Religion aside my good buddy, SirJohnDrake, what are your opinions on homosexuality?
 
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Posted: #213
Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:


It's relevant b/c HOW we know things is the fundamental question beneath WHAT we know.  You can't answer the latter before first dealing with the former.

how about tell us...HOW do you know something is true?

If you really wanna get into this argument, the reality is that about 99% of all knowledge is secondary, tertiary, etc. All we really can depend on is the observations and experiments of others. Personally, I lend more credence to science than I do to claims that fly in the face of science. I find religion to be, quite literally, unbelievable, because I put stock in logic. 

There is a reason for this adage: A fool believes himself to be wise while the wise man knows himself to be foolish. It's because we don't KNOW very much at all, but there is a lot more evidence to suggest that the Bible is nonsensical than the contrary. I don't claim to have the answers, but you can't deny that believing in religion is a SUBSTANTIALLY larger leap of faith than is relying on the ever-changing world of science. Occam's Razor my man
 
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Posted: #214

Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:

Religion aside my good buddy, SirJohnDrake, what are your opinions on homosexuality?

Hi Kitty! I see you've returned with a question regarding a controversial topic. It should be already evident where I stand but let me just say a few words on it, it is morally wrong and I will never understand why men and women choose a perverted lifestyle. It is not natural and should never be accepted as an alternative lifestyle.

So what's your views or opinions on this topic Kitty?

 
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Posted: #215

Quote Originally Posted by Sugarbear19:



The Crusades. Anyway.......

Again let me state that the Holy Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ does not preach violence. Men create violence on their own.

The Crusades were religiously sanctioned military campaigns called by the Pope with the main goal of restoring Christian control of the Holy Land. These Crusades occurred between 1095 and 1291.

Many historians felt the Crusades were not effective because, "those who survive, together with their children, are more and more embittered against the Christian faith.

 Later,18 century enlightenment thinkers judged the Crusaders harshly. Likewise, some modern historians in the West expressed moral outrage. In the 1950s, Sir Steven Runciman wrote a resounding condemnation:

 
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Posted: #216
Quote Originally Posted by Sugarbear19:


If you really wanna get into this argument, the reality is that about 99% of all knowledge is secondary, tertiary, etc. All we really can depend on is the observations and experiments of others. Personally, I lend more credence to science than I do to claims that fly in the face of science. I find religion to be, quite literally, unbelievable, because I put stock in logic. 

There is a reason for this adage: A fool believes himself to be wise while the wise man knows himself to be foolish. It's because we don't KNOW very much at all, but there is a lot more evidence to suggest that the Bible is nonsensical than the contrary. I don't claim to have the answers, but you can't deny that believing in religion is a SUBSTANTIALLY larger leap of faith than is relying on the ever-changing world of science. Occam's Razor my man

you are constantly proving that you are a product of white western modern culture in your determination of truth.  for example, how do you "know" a man?  through "facts" about him or more through the "story" of his life? giving science the final say on "truth" is a epistemological inconsistency that you might want to figure out.

maybe you didn't read post 181...

the problem is that you guys are using Enlightment/Cartesian/modern thought to argue here.  under this paradigm, there is an assumption that if you are going to be rational, you have to be unbiased, independant, objective, and free from the influence of tradition.  so pure, un-biased, neutral, objective reasoning (what you can prove in a petri dish) is the only thing that counts for rationality and knowledge...under a modernistic paradigm.

so the outcome of this is that all things "religious" or pertaining to tradition are characterized as irrationality.

what post-modern thought does is say that all of that is myth.  there is no such thing as unbiased, objective rationality.  no human person can operate independent of intellectual inheritance or prior commitments.  post-modern thinkers (who have no stake in religion) have debunked the modernist paradigm.
 
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Posted: #217
Quote Originally Posted by SirJohnDrake:

Hi Kitty! I see you've returned with a question regarding a controversial topic. It should be already evident where I stand but let me just say a few words on it, it is morally wrong and I will never understand why men and women choose a perverted lifestyle. It is not natural and should never be accepted as an alternative lifestyle.

So what's your views or opinions on this topic Kitty?

You think homosexuals choose to be that way? It's not like you grow up trying to figure out if you like boys or girls. There are some excpetions, but most are born that way. So, should they go through life faking everything and lying to themselves and their partner because God would not allow them into heaven?? Does that sound like a god to you? 

 
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Posted: #218
let me help you "modern thinkers" understand what paradigm you are using to find truth...

In the 17th Century, Newton thought that he provided a reality not dependant on divine revelatioin.  (the universe is a machine that obeys laws according to math.)  Descartes then constructed this map of reality (one based on logic and math) and every claim to "know" was applied to this map.  everything outside of this map was described as belief.  this Cartesian test (aka. the critical principle) is what become the criteria for "truth" in the next few centuries.  this is the crown of modern thought. 

the critical principle got into big trouble b/c it can EASILY be debunked by the critical principle itself.  all rational doubt implies something that you don't doubt.  (i.e. if you are asked why you doubt something, it will be b/c of something you "believe".)  the critical principle destroys itself.
 
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Posted: #219
I am really unsure about everything, but I don't understand the "have faith" and "believe" and you will go to heaven stuff. I want to believe, but the type of person I am I would like some proof please. So, would I REALLY get sent to hell when I die just because I question things? Seriously, use common sense and think to yourself. Does that sound like the actions of a god that is supposedly "all loving"??? Believe me, if he shows himself and proves to be a god.....I will be the first to say "MY BAD" I definitely believe in you now!!
 
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Posted: #220
Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

I am really unsure about everything, but I don't understand the "have faith" and "believe" and you will go to heaven stuff. I want to believe, but the type of person I am I would like some proof please. So, would I REALLY get sent to hell when I die just because I question things? Seriously, use common sense and think to yourself. Does that sound like the actions of a god that is supposedly "all loving"??? Believe me, if he shows himself and proves to be a god.....I will be the first to say "MY BAD" I definitely believe in you now!!

so what paradigm are you using to determine how much "proof" he needs to give and what it should look like?
 
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Posted: #221
Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:


so what paradigm are you using to determine how much "proof" he needs to give and what it should look like?

Enough to make me believe without question. Even the people that say they are 100% sure.....are really not being truthful.

 
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Posted: #222
Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

Enough to make me believe without question.


isn't that going to be a different answer for everyone you ask?  why does your definition of "enough" get to be the "truth".  and what if God's definition of enough is different from yours?

 
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Posted: #223
Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

 Even the people that say they are 100% sure.....are really not being truthful.


for sure...there is no way to be 100% sure about God...that is why there is faith involved.  but not anymore faith than you are using when you believe that God has not given enough proof.  there is much belief and faith involved no matter what you believe.
 
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Posted: #224
Quote Originally Posted by sims_key:


for sure...there is no way to be 100% sure about God...that is why there is faith involved.  but not anymore faith than you are using when you believe that God has not given enough proof.  there is much belief and faith involved no matter what you believe.

My point is why should I be sent to hell just because I question if god exists. Why should anyone blindly have faith in something they don't know exists. I am just being more truthful and honest with myself. Is that something to be sent to hell for?....and if so, does that sound like something a true god would do?? Does that seem at all logical?

 
 
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Posted: #225
Quote Originally Posted by E-Muffin:

My point is why should I be sent to hell just because I question if god exists. Why should anyone blindly have faith in something they don't know exists. I am just being more truthful and honest with myself. Is that something to be sent to hell for?....and if so, does that sound like something a true god would do?? Does that seem at all logical?

it's not blind faith, but there is much faith involved.  

once again, why do you get to determine what God sends people to hell for...doesn't that make you God?  what are you using to determine what is "something that a true god would do"?  what are you basing this on?
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