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All Forums | Horse Racing

G1 Kentucky Derby 3YO 10F - 5/3/2014 (Churchill Downs)

«First Previous 123 ... 567 Next Last»
fatroll07
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atlasshrugged
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«First Previous 123 ... 567 Next Last»
 
fatroll07
fatroll07
Veteran
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Joined: Nov, 2003
Posts: 2682
Posted: Apr. 14, 2014 - 8:23 PM ET #101

Don't mean to be captain obvious but California chrome is probably the most impressive horse I have seen coming into the derby since big brown without all the foot problems. There is no doubt my win bet and all my exotics will be made around him wps. He has a beautiful stride and finishes like a freight train straight as an arrow. It's a beautiful thing to watch. The horse he decimated is a lot of people's second selection in the derby. A few longer shots.
1) Cairo prince- most of the focus from Florida is from constitution and rightfully so. But when I hear people say that he was fighting his jockey and still won etc I think to myself do you really think that will change in a 20 horse field? Plus pletcher her is fade material on derby day where they have some of the toughest regulations in place. 
Cairo made a monster move coming from 3-4 lengths back and went 3-4 wide on a track that is impossible to close on. He also came into the race on an 8-9 week layoff and I think he was a little short. I like his breeding better then constitution, his trainer, and his experience at a better price.
2) General a rod- keep losing money on this horse but his breeding screams distance. He ran a decent trip over cd surface. His first race he came from off the pace and won going away. Word is that they are tinkering with blinkers to try and get him to relax like he did in race 1
3) wicked strong- ran a monster after getting off the highway at GP
4) danza- as much as I don't like pletcher on derby day its hard to interpret that last race. He ran beautifully. Will he bounce? Probably but he may go off at 15-1 and constitution may be 6-1

More to come when I have some more data
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Don't mean to be captain obvious but California chrome is probably the most impressive horse I have seen coming into the derby since big brown without all the foot problems. There is no doubt my win bet and all my exotics will be made around him wps. He has a beautiful stride and finishes like a freight train straight as an arrow. It's a beautiful thing to watch. The horse he decimated is a lot of people's second selection in the derby. A few longer shots.
1) Cairo prince- most of the focus from Florida is from constitution and rightfully so. But when I hear people say that he was fighting his jockey and still won etc I think to myself do you really think that will change in a 20 horse field? Plus pletcher her is fade material on derby day where they have some of the toughest regulations in place. 
Cairo made a monster move coming from 3-4 lengths back and went 3-4 wide on a track that is impossible to close on. He also came into the race on an 8-9 week layoff and I think he was a little short. I like his breeding better then constitution, his trainer, and his experience at a better price.
2) General a rod- keep losing money on this horse but his breeding screams distance. He ran a decent trip over cd surface. His first race he came from off the pace and won going away. Word is that they are tinkering with blinkers to try and get him to relax like he did in race 1
3) wicked strong- ran a monster after getting off the highway at GP
4) danza- as much as I don't like pletcher on derby day its hard to interpret that last race. He ran beautifully. Will he bounce? Probably but he may go off at 15-1 and constitution may be 6-1

More to come when I have some more data
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 9:27 AM ET #102

Quote Originally Posted by mikeyp1:

I will not pour cold water on the chances of Constitution, but is he in he same mold as other Todd Derby contenders who underachieved in the Derby, like Verrazano?

 

It is hard to tell I think he is a good horse. My concern is him being a Tapit horse. Don't the Tapit breed horses struggle with the derby distance? Not sure but would be stronger on him if he wasn't.

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Quote Originally Posted by mikeyp1:

I will not pour cold water on the chances of Constitution, but is he in he same mold as other Todd Derby contenders who underachieved in the Derby, like Verrazano?

 

It is hard to tell I think he is a good horse. My concern is him being a Tapit horse. Don't the Tapit breed horses struggle with the derby distance? Not sure but would be stronger on him if he wasn't.

 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 2:35 PM ET #103

Quote Originally Posted by IBETSPORTS:

It is hard to tell I think he is a good horse. My concern is him being a Tapit horse. Don't the Tapit breed horses struggle with the derby distance? Not sure but would be stronger on him if he wasn't.






There isn't that many 10 furlong or more races run in the United States.   You can go thru some of Tapit's offspring races in the link below.

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/members/progenypps/pps_report.cfm?sire_face="Arial" size="2" color="#0000ff">

I see a lot of 9 furlong winners, a 1 and 3/16 winner,  a 1950 meter winner over in Japan  (9.7 furlongs).

You can also watch videos of their races.    I watched videos of Ginger Tap and White Rose and they both looked like they could go 10 furlongs.    Both those horses looked almost identical to Tapit and they both ran exactly the way he ran in the Wood Memorial.   


I'm not a pedigree expert though.     
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Quote Originally Posted by IBETSPORTS:

It is hard to tell I think he is a good horse. My concern is him being a Tapit horse. Don't the Tapit breed horses struggle with the derby distance? Not sure but would be stronger on him if he wasn't.






There isn't that many 10 furlong or more races run in the United States.   You can go thru some of Tapit's offspring races in the link below.

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/members/progenypps/pps_report.cfm?sire_face="Arial" size="2" color="#0000ff">

I see a lot of 9 furlong winners, a 1 and 3/16 winner,  a 1950 meter winner over in Japan  (9.7 furlongs).

You can also watch videos of their races.    I watched videos of Ginger Tap and White Rose and they both looked like they could go 10 furlongs.    Both those horses looked almost identical to Tapit and they both ran exactly the way he ran in the Wood Memorial.   


I'm not a pedigree expert though.     
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 2:36 PM ET #104

That link I posted above doesn't work.   Try this one.
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That link I posted above doesn't work.   Try this one.
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 6:47 PM ET #105

Quote Originally Posted by IBETSPORTS:

Thanks 

Well if that is true than would it be good to exclude the Tapit Horses in the derby all together? That might be an easy way to  toss some or maybe they come in 2-4 sometimes.



hey fellas playing a little catch up here been swamped in my professional life including sunday.

tough call on these Tapits.  the data seems pretty firm right about that 9F mark as I mentioned earlier and I was kind of chuckling seeing how many were making their way into the Derby.  Tapiture (hey i was accurate on one thing Saturday) certainly struggled trying to go further yet Constitution easy trip or not looked to me like he was finishing with energy.  i use the breeding as a secondary indicator yet certainly important in this race because relatively young horses trying what in today's game is an obscure and challenging distance. 
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Quote Originally Posted by IBETSPORTS:

Thanks 

Well if that is true than would it be good to exclude the Tapit Horses in the derby all together? That might be an easy way to  toss some or maybe they come in 2-4 sometimes.



hey fellas playing a little catch up here been swamped in my professional life including sunday.

tough call on these Tapits.  the data seems pretty firm right about that 9F mark as I mentioned earlier and I was kind of chuckling seeing how many were making their way into the Derby.  Tapiture (hey i was accurate on one thing Saturday) certainly struggled trying to go further yet Constitution easy trip or not looked to me like he was finishing with energy.  i use the breeding as a secondary indicator yet certainly important in this race because relatively young horses trying what in today's game is an obscure and challenging distance. 
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 6:54 PM ET #106

Ring Weekend - why do they need to see another work before saying yes?  If he was doing so good and they liked that last would they not be openly talking about running?  i'm holding with my toss if he's in.

Tapiture - sticking to my guns if he's in.  Doesn't look like he's set for his best under these circumstances.  even Asmussen might not enter him.

Midnight Hawk - trying Hawthorne instead.  Would have been pummeled in my view maybe Baffert felt the same.

Chitu - Baffert says he was "tired" in his drill.  translation: trying to convince the owners to withdraw him because he doesn't think he'll fire in this race at this distance???

Dance of Fate (is that the name, not sure?) - if he's in didn't the trainer already say he highly doubts he will fire and he wants much more time between spins?


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Ring Weekend - why do they need to see another work before saying yes?  If he was doing so good and they liked that last would they not be openly talking about running?  i'm holding with my toss if he's in.

Tapiture - sticking to my guns if he's in.  Doesn't look like he's set for his best under these circumstances.  even Asmussen might not enter him.

Midnight Hawk - trying Hawthorne instead.  Would have been pummeled in my view maybe Baffert felt the same.

Chitu - Baffert says he was "tired" in his drill.  translation: trying to convince the owners to withdraw him because he doesn't think he'll fire in this race at this distance???

Dance of Fate (is that the name, not sure?) - if he's in didn't the trainer already say he highly doubts he will fire and he wants much more time between spins?


 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 6:58 PM ET #107

Quote Originally Posted by Greyhound:

Did Ride On Curlin show improved stamina yesterday in the Arkansas Derby?   

He was 6 or 7 wide coming around the far turn while the winner Danza was riding the rail.   He also got bumped at the start and was in the 3 path going around the first turn it looked like.   Ride On Curlin got up for 2nd.     He's always been a bit of a fader but that was a different type of race for him.    Got used a bit on the backstretch too.


Not sure he can get 10 furlongs but might be an in the money threat in the Derby if he can get a decent trip and he's got early speed to maybe do just that. 

He was also 7 wide going around the first turn in The Southwest from the 9 hole and hung on for third and lost the Rebel by a length after being right up on the pace for the whole race.

He's raced at Churchill three times already and has done fairly well but didn't win.     Solid horse that seemingly fires every time but the distance of the Derby is probably too much for him.



yeah I think so.  he ran a gutsy race in my view I give him a lot of credit for plugging away.  son of a gun is inconsistent though to me.  i'm torn i guess on him.  i want a bomb from off the pace for sure.  i don't want a bomb that is going to get gobbled up at the top of the stretch.  this guy fires . . . . . . and then other times he's flat and even.  on figs he's iffy to me with all four 3YO moves at Oaklawn which is a concern for reasons mentioned before.  but, always possible he really pops at CD. 

grey do you trust him in this situation?
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Quote Originally Posted by Greyhound:

Did Ride On Curlin show improved stamina yesterday in the Arkansas Derby?   

He was 6 or 7 wide coming around the far turn while the winner Danza was riding the rail.   He also got bumped at the start and was in the 3 path going around the first turn it looked like.   Ride On Curlin got up for 2nd.     He's always been a bit of a fader but that was a different type of race for him.    Got used a bit on the backstretch too.


Not sure he can get 10 furlongs but might be an in the money threat in the Derby if he can get a decent trip and he's got early speed to maybe do just that. 

He was also 7 wide going around the first turn in The Southwest from the 9 hole and hung on for third and lost the Rebel by a length after being right up on the pace for the whole race.

He's raced at Churchill three times already and has done fairly well but didn't win.     Solid horse that seemingly fires every time but the distance of the Derby is probably too much for him.



yeah I think so.  he ran a gutsy race in my view I give him a lot of credit for plugging away.  son of a gun is inconsistent though to me.  i'm torn i guess on him.  i want a bomb from off the pace for sure.  i don't want a bomb that is going to get gobbled up at the top of the stretch.  this guy fires . . . . . . and then other times he's flat and even.  on figs he's iffy to me with all four 3YO moves at Oaklawn which is a concern for reasons mentioned before.  but, always possible he really pops at CD. 

grey do you trust him in this situation?
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 7:19 PM ET #108

Pace:

Not so sure it will be an intense one here like sub 46 for this distance but I see it being contested and lively.  here's who I see with a style that either a) they can only be up front and function, or b) patterns suggest their best/only chance to compete is from up front or just off the pace:

Wildcat Red
Chitu
Midnight Hawk (moot point he won't be in)
Ring Weekend (hasn't done squat any other way)
Social Inclusion
Samraat
Uncle Sigh
Vicar's in Trouble
Tapiture

i'm likely tossing all of these but not just because of style.  i don't see any projecting to run their best in this race at this distance under these circumstances.
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Pace:

Not so sure it will be an intense one here like sub 46 for this distance but I see it being contested and lively.  here's who I see with a style that either a) they can only be up front and function, or b) patterns suggest their best/only chance to compete is from up front or just off the pace:

Wildcat Red
Chitu
Midnight Hawk (moot point he won't be in)
Ring Weekend (hasn't done squat any other way)
Social Inclusion
Samraat
Uncle Sigh
Vicar's in Trouble
Tapiture

i'm likely tossing all of these but not just because of style.  i don't see any projecting to run their best in this race at this distance under these circumstances.
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 7:23 PM ET #109

Closers from mid pack or deeper:

Slim Pickens here and I'm not sold any of these are even fast/good enough to get ALL the way up unless this thing just totally collapses but maybe in 3rd or 4th:

Commanding Curve
We Miss Artie
Medal Count
Wicked Strong (i'm still iffy on him closing at 10F not just 9F)
Ride on Curlin
Intense Holiday (if they go back to prior style)



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Closers from mid pack or deeper:

Slim Pickens here and I'm not sold any of these are even fast/good enough to get ALL the way up unless this thing just totally collapses but maybe in 3rd or 4th:

Commanding Curve
We Miss Artie
Medal Count
Wicked Strong (i'm still iffy on him closing at 10F not just 9F)
Ride on Curlin
Intense Holiday (if they go back to prior style)



 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 7:28 PM ET #110

Current sense of who I see projecting for their best in this race at this distance under these circumstances:

Hoppertunity
General A Rod
Constitution

This isn't my play or my bet but yuk a bit chalky at this point. 

I've got Chrome on the edge of this group.  I'm not tossing him but taking into consideration what he HAS done (rear view mirror) I'm not totally sold we will see his BEST in this race.  I need to think about it more.  You think he runs above a 107 at 10F?  I'm not so sure.  I can see the winner running 103ish here. 
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Current sense of who I see projecting for their best in this race at this distance under these circumstances:

Hoppertunity
General A Rod
Constitution

This isn't my play or my bet but yuk a bit chalky at this point. 

I've got Chrome on the edge of this group.  I'm not tossing him but taking into consideration what he HAS done (rear view mirror) I'm not totally sold we will see his BEST in this race.  I need to think about it more.  You think he runs above a 107 at 10F?  I'm not so sure.  I can see the winner running 103ish here. 
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 7:32 PM ET #111

Haven't had a chance to evaluate this Ark Derby winner yet.  Initial feeling is to fade him and make him duplicate it and beat me.  I know he was just off WTC's time but he regressed a lot in that one I feel. 
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Haven't had a chance to evaluate this Ark Derby winner yet.  Initial feeling is to fade him and make him duplicate it and beat me.  I know he was just off WTC's time but he regressed a lot in that one I feel. 
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 7:40 PM ET #112

Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:




grey do you trust him (Ride On Curlin) in this situation?






I said in the last sentence of my post that I thought 10 furlongs was too much for him. 

But AngryBarber is comparing him to Palace Malice from last year.   That's kind of interesting.     If you remember,   they put first time blinkers on Palace Malice in the Ky Derby and he ran off and set way too fast of a pace and faded to 12th.   But he went on and won the 12 furlong Belmont Stakes a few weeks later.
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Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:




grey do you trust him (Ride On Curlin) in this situation?






I said in the last sentence of my post that I thought 10 furlongs was too much for him. 

But AngryBarber is comparing him to Palace Malice from last year.   That's kind of interesting.     If you remember,   they put first time blinkers on Palace Malice in the Ky Derby and he ran off and set way too fast of a pace and faded to 12th.   But he went on and won the 12 furlong Belmont Stakes a few weeks later.
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 8:20 PM ET #113

I deleted the links to keep the thread from getting screwed up.

IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.

I would also add that there might very well be a reason he always seems wide or has tough trips. He may lack the dexterity to manuever between horses or have that flash of speed to get around them. If that is the case, it would suggest that he is actually built for distance.

But he may also not like racing close to other horses (the old Quality Road syndrome) and if that is the case, no way do I play him in a group of 20.

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I deleted the links to keep the thread from getting screwed up.

IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.

I would also add that there might very well be a reason he always seems wide or has tough trips. He may lack the dexterity to manuever between horses or have that flash of speed to get around them. If that is the case, it would suggest that he is actually built for distance.

But he may also not like racing close to other horses (the old Quality Road syndrome) and if that is the case, no way do I play him in a group of 20.

 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 9:14 PM ET #114

Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:


Update:  like this guy and have a lot of respect for his grit and determination and he certainly did not disgrace himself in the Florida Derby.  i probably can't support him stretching out even more in louisville.  tough to completely toss since he always shows up but he doesn't look to me like he's projecting forward to find his best ever at 10F.  

Wanted to provide clarity on this since I list him in my top three.  Everything is relative and the ultimate question for any race is "who is gonna fire big in this race under these circumstances?"  that said having seen all of the others I'm left thinking that General A Rod is one of my top choices to come in healthy (of course need to confirm this leading up with drills, etc.), fit, and ready to go.

Also like the five week break he's gotten especially considering he has plenty of races underneath him.  like how he has shown the maturity to sit back a little and kick it in at the right time.  like rosario on him.  like the removal of the shades if they do that.  and to be perfectly frank looking at this trainer (things like first off the claim) I can't discount his ability to come up with the right "nutrition" program.  not sure he can win but i'm comfortable expecting him to bring a top effort and barring a horrendous trip he won't need to make a hail mary move from the clouds.  
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Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:


Update:  like this guy and have a lot of respect for his grit and determination and he certainly did not disgrace himself in the Florida Derby.  i probably can't support him stretching out even more in louisville.  tough to completely toss since he always shows up but he doesn't look to me like he's projecting forward to find his best ever at 10F.  

Wanted to provide clarity on this since I list him in my top three.  Everything is relative and the ultimate question for any race is "who is gonna fire big in this race under these circumstances?"  that said having seen all of the others I'm left thinking that General A Rod is one of my top choices to come in healthy (of course need to confirm this leading up with drills, etc.), fit, and ready to go.

Also like the five week break he's gotten especially considering he has plenty of races underneath him.  like how he has shown the maturity to sit back a little and kick it in at the right time.  like rosario on him.  like the removal of the shades if they do that.  and to be perfectly frank looking at this trainer (things like first off the claim) I can't discount his ability to come up with the right "nutrition" program.  not sure he can win but i'm comfortable expecting him to bring a top effort and barring a horrendous trip he won't need to make a hail mary move from the clouds.  
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 10:01 PM ET #115

Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

I deleted the links to keep the thread from getting screwed up.

IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.

I would also add that there might very well be a reason he always seems wide or has tough trips. He may lack the dexterity to manuever between horses or have that flash of speed to get around them. If that is the case, it would suggest that he is actually built for distance.

But he may also not like racing close to other horses (the old Quality Road syndrome) and if that is the case, no way do I play him in a group of 20.







Cmon man, you didn't need to delete those links to Palice Malice and Ride On Curlin past performances.    They were not screwing up anything.     The one link up above was screwing it up.      
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

I deleted the links to keep the thread from getting screwed up.

IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.

I would also add that there might very well be a reason he always seems wide or has tough trips. He may lack the dexterity to manuever between horses or have that flash of speed to get around them. If that is the case, it would suggest that he is actually built for distance.

But he may also not like racing close to other horses (the old Quality Road syndrome) and if that is the case, no way do I play him in a group of 20.







Cmon man, you didn't need to delete those links to Palice Malice and Ride On Curlin past performances.    They were not screwing up anything.     The one link up above was screwing it up.      
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 10:12 PM ET #116

It wasn't anything you did. Sometimes the format of the link causes spacing issues, which happened here.
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It wasn't anything you did. Sometimes the format of the link causes spacing issues, which happened here.
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 10:25 PM ET #117

Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

It wasn't anything you did. Sometimes the format of the link causes spacing issues, which happened here.





The links were important to the post.    I thought it was an interesting comparison that AngryBarber made and the links were there to let people take a look at it.
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:

It wasn't anything you did. Sometimes the format of the link causes spacing issues, which happened here.





The links were important to the post.    I thought it was an interesting comparison that AngryBarber made and the links were there to let people take a look at it.
 
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Posted: Apr. 15, 2014 - 11:08 PM ET #118

Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.







The only race that Palace Malice had won before winning the 12 furlong Belmont Stakes was a 6.5 furlong maiden special race.

He hadn't shown  a "winning move" either .    
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.







The only race that Palace Malice had won before winning the 12 furlong Belmont Stakes was a 6.5 furlong maiden special race.

He hadn't shown  a "winning move" either .    
 
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Posted: Apr. 16, 2014 - 6:56 AM ET #119

Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.

I would also add that there might very well be a reason he always seems wide or has tough trips. He may lack the dexterity to manuever between horses or have that flash of speed to get around them. If that is the case, it would suggest that he is actually built for distance.

But he may also not like racing close to other horses (the old Quality Road syndrome) and if that is the case, no way do I play him in a group of 20.

2 starts back ROC raced on the rail inside of horses and finished a game 3rd in a roughly run Rebel so I don't think he has "Quality Road syndrome".

ROC hasn't turned in a bad start this year and thats with a different jockey in the last 3 races, now he gets Borel back and IMO he's very live going into the Derby. Maybe these Curlin foals just get better as they get a little older.
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Quote Originally Posted by djbrow:


IMO, Ride on Curlin is more like Musket Man. More of a plodder, always seemingly near the top 4, but without a winning move.

I would also add that there might very well be a reason he always seems wide or has tough trips. He may lack the dexterity to manuever between horses or have that flash of speed to get around them. If that is the case, it would suggest that he is actually built for distance.

But he may also not like racing close to other horses (the old Quality Road syndrome) and if that is the case, no way do I play him in a group of 20.

2 starts back ROC raced on the rail inside of horses and finished a game 3rd in a roughly run Rebel so I don't think he has "Quality Road syndrome".

ROC hasn't turned in a bad start this year and thats with a different jockey in the last 3 races, now he gets Borel back and IMO he's very live going into the Derby. Maybe these Curlin foals just get better as they get a little older.
 
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Posted: Apr. 17, 2014 - 6:47 AM ET #120

Quote Originally Posted by angrybarber:

2 starts back ROC raced on the rail inside of horses and finished a game 3rd in a roughly run Rebel so I don't think he has "Quality Road syndrome".

ROC hasn't turned in a bad start this year and thats with a different jockey in the last 3 races, now he gets Borel back and IMO he's very live going into the Derby. Maybe these Curlin foals just get better as they get a little older.

Raise a Native horses do well at the Derby , plus ROC has other very solid pedigree . I'm not saying this horse wins, yet , but I'm not throwing him out of my exotics , right now .. If his old man can win the Derby then so could this baby .. imo .. 
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Quote Originally Posted by angrybarber:

2 starts back ROC raced on the rail inside of horses and finished a game 3rd in a roughly run Rebel so I don't think he has "Quality Road syndrome".

ROC hasn't turned in a bad start this year and thats with a different jockey in the last 3 races, now he gets Borel back and IMO he's very live going into the Derby. Maybe these Curlin foals just get better as they get a little older.

Raise a Native horses do well at the Derby , plus ROC has other very solid pedigree . I'm not saying this horse wins, yet , but I'm not throwing him out of my exotics , right now .. If his old man can win the Derby then so could this baby .. imo .. 
 
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Posted: Apr. 17, 2014 - 1:18 PM ET #121

Ride On Curlin's trainer Billy Gowan talking about the kind of ride he wants from Borel in the KY Derby.   

 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/horse-racing-blog/2014/04/14/kentucky-derby-2014calvin-borel-to-ride-ride-on-curlin/7710621/

 

He won't be up on the pace.    He wants him about 6th in the early part of the race and near the rail.  

 

Here's Super Savers KY Derby chart.

https://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=CD&dt=05/01/2010&ctry=USA&race=11

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Ride On Curlin's trainer Billy Gowan talking about the kind of ride he wants from Borel in the KY Derby.   

 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/horse-racing-blog/2014/04/14/kentucky-derby-2014calvin-borel-to-ride-ride-on-curlin/7710621/

 

He won't be up on the pace.    He wants him about 6th in the early part of the race and near the rail.  

 

Here's Super Savers KY Derby chart.

https://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=CD&dt=05/01/2010&ctry=USA&race=11

 
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Posted: Apr. 17, 2014 - 2:06 PM ET #122

Quote Originally Posted by Upside:


Raise a Native horses do well at the Derby , plus ROC has other very solid pedigree . I'm not saying this horse wins, yet , but I'm not throwing him out of my exotics , right now .. If his old man can win the Derby then so could this baby .. imo .. 

 

 

Curlin didn't win the KY Derby.   He finished 3rd beaten 8 lengths behind Street Sense and Hard Spun.     He won the Preakness though and finished 2nd in the Belmont a head behind Rags To Riches.   

 

 

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Quote Originally Posted by Upside:


Raise a Native horses do well at the Derby , plus ROC has other very solid pedigree . I'm not saying this horse wins, yet , but I'm not throwing him out of my exotics , right now .. If his old man can win the Derby then so could this baby .. imo .. 

 

 

Curlin didn't win the KY Derby.   He finished 3rd beaten 8 lengths behind Street Sense and Hard Spun.     He won the Preakness though and finished 2nd in the Belmont a head behind Rags To Riches.   

 

 

 
atlasshrugged
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Posted: Apr. 17, 2014 - 9:34 PM ET #123

Medal Count:

- like that he's turned the corner and woken up at the right time.  has established that he's run faster as a 3YO than he has as a 2YO and handled additional distance
- surface a potential issue.  i'll give him a pass for folding at SA he maybe just wasn't truly ready for a BC caliber race at the time but he sure didn't seem to like dirt at GP.  could be just there and he likes CD but either way you view it you have to accept that it's a risk
- two ways to look at his recency.  could be he's just doing so good he's ready to fire again or he's due to crumble with the Derby being his 3rd in a four and half week span.  seen this go both ways.  sometimes they just keep cruising and they can also totally fold.  

bottom line:  intriguing for me to use on a tri/super if only for his potential to handle this distance and he has shown good effort late in his races.  with half the field falling apart late this could be useful.  i'll try to get a read on his energy level leading in as this is a lot to ask.  blood implies he could appreciate this distance more than most of these.
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Medal Count:

- like that he's turned the corner and woken up at the right time.  has established that he's run faster as a 3YO than he has as a 2YO and handled additional distance
- surface a potential issue.  i'll give him a pass for folding at SA he maybe just wasn't truly ready for a BC caliber race at the time but he sure didn't seem to like dirt at GP.  could be just there and he likes CD but either way you view it you have to accept that it's a risk
- two ways to look at his recency.  could be he's just doing so good he's ready to fire again or he's due to crumble with the Derby being his 3rd in a four and half week span.  seen this go both ways.  sometimes they just keep cruising and they can also totally fold.  

bottom line:  intriguing for me to use on a tri/super if only for his potential to handle this distance and he has shown good effort late in his races.  with half the field falling apart late this could be useful.  i'll try to get a read on his energy level leading in as this is a lot to ask.  blood implies he could appreciate this distance more than most of these.
 
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Posted: Apr. 18, 2014 - 6:16 AM ET #124

Quote Originally Posted by fatroll07:

Don't mean to be captain obvious but California chrome is probably the most impressive horse I have seen coming into the derby since big brown without all the foot problems. There is no doubt my win bet and all my exotics will be made around him wps. He has a beautiful stride and finishes like a freight train straight as an arrow. It's a beautiful thing to watch. The horse he decimated is a lot of people's second selection in the derby. A few longer shots.
1) Cairo prince- most of the focus from Florida is from constitution and rightfully so. But when I hear people say that he was fighting his jockey and still won etc I think to myself do you really think that will change in a 20 horse field? Plus pletcher her is fade material on derby day where they have some of the toughest regulations in place. 
Cairo made a monster move coming from 3-4 lengths back and went 3-4 wide on a track that is impossible to close on. He also came into the race on an 8-9 week layoff and I think he was a little short. I like his breeding better then constitution, his trainer, and his experience at a better price.
2) General a rod- keep losing money on this horse but his breeding screams distance. He ran a decent trip over cd surface. His first race he came from off the pace and won going away. Word is that they are tinkering with blinkers to try and get him to relax like he did in race 1
3) wicked strong- ran a monster after getting off the highway at GP
4) danza- as much as I don't like pletcher on derby day its hard to interpret that last race. He ran beautifully. Will he bounce? Probably but he may go off at 15-1 and constitution may be 6-1

More to come when I have some more data

Interested in your thoughts more on Cairo.  I'm open minded to taking another look as he should be maybe 20/1 or higher here.  

You think he's fast enough?  It kind of looks to me like using him is hoping he finally runs something that supports his lofty reputation prior to the Florida derby.  
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Quote Originally Posted by fatroll07:

Don't mean to be captain obvious but California chrome is probably the most impressive horse I have seen coming into the derby since big brown without all the foot problems. There is no doubt my win bet and all my exotics will be made around him wps. He has a beautiful stride and finishes like a freight train straight as an arrow. It's a beautiful thing to watch. The horse he decimated is a lot of people's second selection in the derby. A few longer shots.
1) Cairo prince- most of the focus from Florida is from constitution and rightfully so. But when I hear people say that he was fighting his jockey and still won etc I think to myself do you really think that will change in a 20 horse field? Plus pletcher her is fade material on derby day where they have some of the toughest regulations in place. 
Cairo made a monster move coming from 3-4 lengths back and went 3-4 wide on a track that is impossible to close on. He also came into the race on an 8-9 week layoff and I think he was a little short. I like his breeding better then constitution, his trainer, and his experience at a better price.
2) General a rod- keep losing money on this horse but his breeding screams distance. He ran a decent trip over cd surface. His first race he came from off the pace and won going away. Word is that they are tinkering with blinkers to try and get him to relax like he did in race 1
3) wicked strong- ran a monster after getting off the highway at GP
4) danza- as much as I don't like pletcher on derby day its hard to interpret that last race. He ran beautifully. Will he bounce? Probably but he may go off at 15-1 and constitution may be 6-1

More to come when I have some more data

Interested in your thoughts more on Cairo.  I'm open minded to taking another look as he should be maybe 20/1 or higher here.  

You think he's fast enough?  It kind of looks to me like using him is hoping he finally runs something that supports his lofty reputation prior to the Florida derby.  
 
 
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Posted: Apr. 22, 2014 - 1:29 PM ET #125

Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:

Samraat:

- tough to knock a horse that shows up every time, runs hard and with strong effort, and keeps winning
- all of his wins seem to be grinding efforts and he hasn't really run by horses easily late in the lane
- most of his noise on the Big A inner strip and not the main
- very consistent speed figs but not rising gradually so i'm left to wonder is this the best we will see from this guy or will he move forward?
- blood/tree suggests the 10F is possible primarily from daddy's side but iffy from mommy's side and inconclusive on the sibs

bottom line:  for me the Wood will tell me what i really need to know about this guy.  it certainly looks like he will run his race and try hard but is he good enough.  this 9F, switch to the main, and level of competition particularly with the gulfstream speedball coming in will tell me a lot.   


Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:


update:  really no change.  very nice horse that runs hard and fires every time.  still think he runs a bot even late and not sure he'll improve going out further.  i can see him looking like he has a shot at the top of the lane if he gets a clean trip but will he accelerate home or flatten out late?  i'm likely tossing him.





This horse has been having trouble changing leads.   He won the Withers leading with his left leg the whole time.  You can see it clearly on video.    He didn't change his lead until very late in the Wood Memorial and finished 2nd.

Watch the video below and the trainer talking about it.     "He's not going to win the Derby unless he changes leads.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEgtx0W2WfA

Why is lead switching critical ? A horse will get very tired if it remains on one lead for too long.   
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Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:

Samraat:

- tough to knock a horse that shows up every time, runs hard and with strong effort, and keeps winning
- all of his wins seem to be grinding efforts and he hasn't really run by horses easily late in the lane
- most of his noise on the Big A inner strip and not the main
- very consistent speed figs but not rising gradually so i'm left to wonder is this the best we will see from this guy or will he move forward?
- blood/tree suggests the 10F is possible primarily from daddy's side but iffy from mommy's side and inconclusive on the sibs

bottom line:  for me the Wood will tell me what i really need to know about this guy.  it certainly looks like he will run his race and try hard but is he good enough.  this 9F, switch to the main, and level of competition particularly with the gulfstream speedball coming in will tell me a lot.   


Quote Originally Posted by atlasshrugged:


update:  really no change.  very nice horse that runs hard and fires every time.  still think he runs a bot even late and not sure he'll improve going out further.  i can see him looking like he has a shot at the top of the lane if he gets a clean trip but will he accelerate home or flatten out late?  i'm likely tossing him.





This horse has been having trouble changing leads.   He won the Withers leading with his left leg the whole time.  You can see it clearly on video.    He didn't change his lead until very late in the Wood Memorial and finished 2nd.

Watch the video below and the trainer talking about it.     "He's not going to win the Derby unless he changes leads.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEgtx0W2WfA

Why is lead switching critical ? A horse will get very tired if it remains on one lead for too long.   
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