Everyone on here, for the most part, overlooks how important defense is and only cares about offense.
Defense is half the game while hitting is less than half the game as baserunning is also involved on offense. There are reasons there are players like Adam Everett, Adam Kennedy, Caesar Izturis who have roster spots and play a good amount of the time.
HINT, HINT it is not for their offensive value. These managers and GMs and people in baseball understand how important defense is, especially at key positions, and someone who is going to be a top defender at that key position is more valuable (even if they cant hit out of a wet paper bag) than another player who is suspect defensively but can hit a little.
Offense is the sexy part of baseball but defense is just as important, and in some cases more important than what offensive value a player can provide.
You are an imbecile... Find me one game where JP lost a game for Toronto defensively
Like I said you would be laughed at
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Quote Originally Posted by jpero:
Everyone on here, for the most part, overlooks how important defense is and only cares about offense.
Defense is half the game while hitting is less than half the game as baserunning is also involved on offense. There are reasons there are players like Adam Everett, Adam Kennedy, Caesar Izturis who have roster spots and play a good amount of the time.
HINT, HINT it is not for their offensive value. These managers and GMs and people in baseball understand how important defense is, especially at key positions, and someone who is going to be a top defender at that key position is more valuable (even if they cant hit out of a wet paper bag) than another player who is suspect defensively but can hit a little.
Offense is the sexy part of baseball but defense is just as important, and in some cases more important than what offensive value a player can provide.
You are an imbecile... Find me one game where JP lost a game for Toronto defensively
URISS you bring nothing to the table in this discussion. You are harping on one point that has nothing to do with the whole picture.
You are wrong, entirely wrong. You have no understanding of hte importance of defense.
Also in scouting circles around the league... Wieters is praised highly. He is 25 years old and already established himself as the best defensive catcher in the game. He pretty much has eliminated the running the game when he is behind hte plate and he blocks everything. He calls a great game and his offensive seems to be coming around slowly. He still have room and time to develop that part of this game.
Wieters is the better player than Arencibia and its not particular close at this point. Scouts agree around baseball. Obviously there will be scouts who like Arencibia better just as there are scouts who like other players better than other players. But on a consensus across baseball Wieters is still looked at as one of the best young catchers in the biz and his defense has even raised his value a little because a lot of scouts still believe he will become an .800+ OPS catcher.
The defense separates him from the other catchers and thats what makes him special.
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URISS you bring nothing to the table in this discussion. You are harping on one point that has nothing to do with the whole picture.
You are wrong, entirely wrong. You have no understanding of hte importance of defense.
Also in scouting circles around the league... Wieters is praised highly. He is 25 years old and already established himself as the best defensive catcher in the game. He pretty much has eliminated the running the game when he is behind hte plate and he blocks everything. He calls a great game and his offensive seems to be coming around slowly. He still have room and time to develop that part of this game.
Wieters is the better player than Arencibia and its not particular close at this point. Scouts agree around baseball. Obviously there will be scouts who like Arencibia better just as there are scouts who like other players better than other players. But on a consensus across baseball Wieters is still looked at as one of the best young catchers in the biz and his defense has even raised his value a little because a lot of scouts still believe he will become an .800+ OPS catcher.
The defense separates him from the other catchers and thats what makes him special.
URISS you bring nothing to the table in this discussion. You are harping on one point that has nothing to do with the whole picture.
You are wrong, entirely wrong. You have no understanding of hte importance of defense.
Also in scouting circles around the league... Wieters is praised highly. He is 25 years old and already established himself as the best defensive catcher in the game. He pretty much has eliminated the running the game when he is behind hte plate and he blocks everything. He calls a great game and his offensive seems to be coming around slowly. He still have room and time to develop that part of this game.
Wieters is the better player than Arencibia and its not particular close at this point. Scouts agree around baseball. Obviously there will be scouts who like Arencibia better just as there are scouts who like other players better than other players. But on a consensus across baseball Wieters is still looked at as one of the best young catchers in the biz and his defense has even raised his value a little because a lot of scouts still believe he will become an .800+ OPS catcher.
The defense separates him from the other catchers and thats what makes him special.
And that is why most scouts SUCK... And that is a fact!... Good scouts are a dime a dozen... I could careless what the consensus is around the league...
JP's defense is not going to cost his team a game EVER... And offensively he blows Weiters out of the box...
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Quote Originally Posted by jpero:
URISS you bring nothing to the table in this discussion. You are harping on one point that has nothing to do with the whole picture.
You are wrong, entirely wrong. You have no understanding of hte importance of defense.
Also in scouting circles around the league... Wieters is praised highly. He is 25 years old and already established himself as the best defensive catcher in the game. He pretty much has eliminated the running the game when he is behind hte plate and he blocks everything. He calls a great game and his offensive seems to be coming around slowly. He still have room and time to develop that part of this game.
Wieters is the better player than Arencibia and its not particular close at this point. Scouts agree around baseball. Obviously there will be scouts who like Arencibia better just as there are scouts who like other players better than other players. But on a consensus across baseball Wieters is still looked at as one of the best young catchers in the biz and his defense has even raised his value a little because a lot of scouts still believe he will become an .800+ OPS catcher.
The defense separates him from the other catchers and thats what makes him special.
And that is why most scouts SUCK... And that is a fact!... Good scouts are a dime a dozen... I could careless what the consensus is around the league...
JP's defense is not going to cost his team a game EVER... And offensively he blows Weiters out of the box...
You are an imbecile... Find me one game where JP lost a game for Toronto defensively
Like I said you would be laughed at
JP has 13 more WP and 5 more passed balls along with 12 more stolen bases allowed than Wieters......
Wait for it, heres the kicker.......
In 65 less innings behind the plate. That is 30 more extra bases that he has allowed to baserunners compared to Wieters.
You are trying to tell me that none of those 30 extra bases given to baserunners turned into runs or had an impact. And that is in 7 less full games played than Wieters.
Arencibia's defensive WAR/value is negative compared to Wieters who has the best dWAR in the game.at 0.7 vs. JP -0.3.
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Quote Originally Posted by URISS2302:
You are an imbecile... Find me one game where JP lost a game for Toronto defensively
Like I said you would be laughed at
JP has 13 more WP and 5 more passed balls along with 12 more stolen bases allowed than Wieters......
Wait for it, heres the kicker.......
In 65 less innings behind the plate. That is 30 more extra bases that he has allowed to baserunners compared to Wieters.
You are trying to tell me that none of those 30 extra bases given to baserunners turned into runs or had an impact. And that is in 7 less full games played than Wieters.
Arencibia's defensive WAR/value is negative compared to Wieters who has the best dWAR in the game.at 0.7 vs. JP -0.3.
And that is why most scouts SUCK... And that is a fact!... Good scouts are a dime a dozen... I could careless what the consensus is around the league...
JP's defense is not going to cost his team a game EVER... And offensively he blows Weiters out of the box...
And Adam Dunn doesn't cost his teams games on defense either.
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Quote Originally Posted by URISS2302:
And that is why most scouts SUCK... And that is a fact!... Good scouts are a dime a dozen... I could careless what the consensus is around the league...
JP's defense is not going to cost his team a game EVER... And offensively he blows Weiters out of the box...
And Adam Dunn doesn't cost his teams games on defense either.
Bringing up statistics like WAR and OWAR is amateur... Its a numbers way of evaluating talent... Its a clear indication of separating those who have played the game and can evaluate talent rather than those who have never played an inning at a competitive level but took a bunch of business class' in college ...
This thread and conversation is a waste of space
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Bringing up statistics like WAR and OWAR is amateur... Its a numbers way of evaluating talent... Its a clear indication of separating those who have played the game and can evaluate talent rather than those who have never played an inning at a competitive level but took a bunch of business class' in college ...
Its kind of like a sports writer who talks about baseball and players... Never played an inning but make asinine articles thinking they know shit... Its laughable... you fall into that category
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Its kind of like a sports writer who talks about baseball and players... Never played an inning but make asinine articles thinking they know shit... Its laughable... you fall into that category
screw the orioles. up 4,600.00 since start of baseball season. if it werent for the O'S i'd be up triple that. they cant win for me. yet against my better judgement i will try them again tonie with guthrie on the bump. i like them huge tonite along with the cards. if the O'S lose tonite i will seek out a vodoo woman and cast a spell them so that they will lose 100 games as usual.
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screw the orioles. up 4,600.00 since start of baseball season. if it werent for the O'S i'd be up triple that. they cant win for me. yet against my better judgement i will try them again tonie with guthrie on the bump. i like them huge tonite along with the cards. if the O'S lose tonite i will seek out a vodoo woman and cast a spell them so that they will lose 100 games as usual.
Oh dear God... fuck WAR and OWAR... Those stats are like tits on a BULL... Arencibia and Posey should not even be in the same sentence as Weiters.... I could careless if Weiters through 100MP to 2nd and threw out 90% of runners...
So are you a scout yet?
Wins Above Replacement, commonly known as WAR, is a
non-standardized sabermetric baseball statistic that is used to
show how many more wins a player would give a team as opposed to a
"replacement level", or minor league/bench player at that position. Position players are evaluated using statistics for fielding and hitting
Theo Epstein uses WAR, OPS+, BABIP, wOBA, and other advanced stats when evaluating players and choosing players to sign or trade.
I guess he is an imbecile just as I am. These stats are being all around baseball in front offices and for decision making. It is the new moneyball strategy of finding what stat is undervalued and how to find a player that will perform better than the contract he is signed to vs another player who might get paid more but not be as valuable because people are looking at the sexier stats.
Over the past few seasons more teams have started to carry younger players rather than aging Vets. They have also started to care more about defense and there are more players in the league who are superior defenders rather than a team using a superior offensive player who plays suspect defense.
If you do not believe this evaluation just look at roster make up over the past few seasons and notice that OPS for the league (along with age) has trended downward for each season over the past 3. This is not a coincidence but rather a change in the philosophy of baseball roster management. In the past defense was difficult to rate and put a value on but nowadays it is a lot easier to rate defense and evaluate that part of the game.
The game has changed from an offensive game with HRs to teams being constructed that can play great defense, pitch well, run the bases (more speed) and do the little things/ small ball. And it is because defense was overlooked during the steroid era and offense was the crown jewel.
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Quote Originally Posted by URISS2302:
Oh dear God... fuck WAR and OWAR... Those stats are like tits on a BULL... Arencibia and Posey should not even be in the same sentence as Weiters.... I could careless if Weiters through 100MP to 2nd and threw out 90% of runners...
So are you a scout yet?
Wins Above Replacement, commonly known as WAR, is a
non-standardized sabermetric baseball statistic that is used to
show how many more wins a player would give a team as opposed to a
"replacement level", or minor league/bench player at that position. Position players are evaluated using statistics for fielding and hitting
Theo Epstein uses WAR, OPS+, BABIP, wOBA, and other advanced stats when evaluating players and choosing players to sign or trade.
I guess he is an imbecile just as I am. These stats are being all around baseball in front offices and for decision making. It is the new moneyball strategy of finding what stat is undervalued and how to find a player that will perform better than the contract he is signed to vs another player who might get paid more but not be as valuable because people are looking at the sexier stats.
Over the past few seasons more teams have started to carry younger players rather than aging Vets. They have also started to care more about defense and there are more players in the league who are superior defenders rather than a team using a superior offensive player who plays suspect defense.
If you do not believe this evaluation just look at roster make up over the past few seasons and notice that OPS for the league (along with age) has trended downward for each season over the past 3. This is not a coincidence but rather a change in the philosophy of baseball roster management. In the past defense was difficult to rate and put a value on but nowadays it is a lot easier to rate defense and evaluate that part of the game.
The game has changed from an offensive game with HRs to teams being constructed that can play great defense, pitch well, run the bases (more speed) and do the little things/ small ball. And it is because defense was overlooked during the steroid era and offense was the crown jewel.
That is bullshit if you are talking about 5 by 5 statistics. Your boy isnt doing HALF as good as the bulk of those guys.
he is trying to sound like a scout... 75% of scouts are HORRIBLE and use statistics like War and OWar to evaluate... Pero hasn't played an inning of competitive baseball but thinks he knows shit because he has had a few sit downs with dumb ass scouts
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Quote Originally Posted by JOE8877:
That is bullshit if you are talking about 5 by 5 statistics. Your boy isnt doing HALF as good as the bulk of those guys.
he is trying to sound like a scout... 75% of scouts are HORRIBLE and use statistics like War and OWar to evaluate... Pero hasn't played an inning of competitive baseball but thinks he knows shit because he has had a few sit downs with dumb ass scouts
That is bullshit if you are talking about 5 by 5 statistics. Your boy isnt doing HALF as good as the bulk of those guys.
You dont get points in fantasy baseball for defense.
Lets put it this way. If URISS were running a team Mark Belanger would have never made his team and would have never played an inning.
Yet he is one of the best defensive players to ever play the game of baseball. His value was great defensively it did not matter he was a .220 hitter with a .580 OPS. He quite possibly could be the worst everyday offensive player in the history of baseball. However, he saved so many runs with his glove and made so many plays defensively that his defensive value outweighed his offensive ineptitude.
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Quote Originally Posted by JOE8877:
That is bullshit if you are talking about 5 by 5 statistics. Your boy isnt doing HALF as good as the bulk of those guys.
You dont get points in fantasy baseball for defense.
Lets put it this way. If URISS were running a team Mark Belanger would have never made his team and would have never played an inning.
Yet he is one of the best defensive players to ever play the game of baseball. His value was great defensively it did not matter he was a .220 hitter with a .580 OPS. He quite possibly could be the worst everyday offensive player in the history of baseball. However, he saved so many runs with his glove and made so many plays defensively that his defensive value outweighed his offensive ineptitude.
And I never said GM's and or scouts dont look at stats... What I said is that the ones who know what they are doing... dont say.. "Hey Weiters WAr and OWar is better than JP's, he is twice the player"... Its asinine absurd, and borderline insane... and you would be laughed at
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And I never said GM's and or scouts dont look at stats... What I said is that the ones who know what they are doing... dont say.. "Hey Weiters WAr and OWar is better than JP's, he is twice the player"... Its asinine absurd, and borderline insane... and you would be laughed at
And that scout who told you probably never played an inning of baseball...
Yea being a 13th round draft pick and making it to AAA before blowing his arm out = never playing an inning.
I'll let him know next time I see him.
oWAR is used to evaluate who much value that player provides offensively compared to a bench player/AAAA replacement type player that would take those ABs instead.
WAR encompasses oWAR along with dWAR (the defensive value). It is a great tool for comparing players and what they actually provide. Defense is just as important yet you write it off as whatever.
Arencibia has allowed 30 more baserunners than Wieters to advance an extra base on the basepaths in 65 less innings. If half of those extra bases led to runs that is 15 runs more he has allowed based on his defensive, if its a 1/3 than its 10 runs more, 1/4 its 7 runs more, a 1/5 its 6 runs more.....
For you to sit there and claim his defense has not led to any runs or change in the game is asinine. All you care about is offensive production.
Defense and pitching wins ballgames.
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Quote Originally Posted by URISS2302:
And that scout who told you probably never played an inning of baseball...
Yea being a 13th round draft pick and making it to AAA before blowing his arm out = never playing an inning.
I'll let him know next time I see him.
oWAR is used to evaluate who much value that player provides offensively compared to a bench player/AAAA replacement type player that would take those ABs instead.
WAR encompasses oWAR along with dWAR (the defensive value). It is a great tool for comparing players and what they actually provide. Defense is just as important yet you write it off as whatever.
Arencibia has allowed 30 more baserunners than Wieters to advance an extra base on the basepaths in 65 less innings. If half of those extra bases led to runs that is 15 runs more he has allowed based on his defensive, if its a 1/3 than its 10 runs more, 1/4 its 7 runs more, a 1/5 its 6 runs more.....
For you to sit there and claim his defense has not led to any runs or change in the game is asinine. All you care about is offensive production.
No you assume I only care about offense ... What I said was Arencibia is hands down a better player than Weiters... You said he was'half te player"... based on your amateurish WAR stats... Stick to your day job
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No you assume I only care about offense ... What I said was Arencibia is hands down a better player than Weiters... You said he was'half te player"... based on your amateurish WAR stats... Stick to your day job
You refuse to take into account the difference in defense between the 2 and only care about the offense.
You can't even admit it when called out.
And I said based on the valuation JP is half the player Wieters is today based on sole value provided so far this season. You can twist my words anyway you want and attack with the personal jabs.
Its all good. Just shows your true colors.
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Wieters is a better all around player today.
You refuse to take into account the difference in defense between the 2 and only care about the offense.
You can't even admit it when called out.
And I said based on the valuation JP is half the player Wieters is today based on sole value provided so far this season. You can twist my words anyway you want and attack with the personal jabs.
You refuse to take into account the difference in defense between the 2 and only care about the offense.
You can't even admit it when called out.
And I said based on the valuation JP is half the player Wieters is today based on sole value provided so far this season. You can twist my words anyway you want and attack with the personal jabs.
Its all good. Just shows your true colors.
Why dont you call all the GM offices and ask them who they would rather have.. JP or Weiters.... 90% will say JP
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Quote Originally Posted by jpero:
Wieters is a better all around player today.
You refuse to take into account the difference in defense between the 2 and only care about the offense.
You can't even admit it when called out.
And I said based on the valuation JP is half the player Wieters is today based on sole value provided so far this season. You can twist my words anyway you want and attack with the personal jabs.
Its all good. Just shows your true colors.
Why dont you call all the GM offices and ask them who they would rather have.. JP or Weiters.... 90% will say JP
It would probably be a 60/40 split in Wieters favor. His defense is that good. He might be a better defensive catcher than Pudge at teh same points in their careers.
Wieters has better track record offensive than JP while at Gtech and his short time in the minors. He made it to the big leagues a year in a half faster than JP and is only a year older.
JPs bat is better right now but Wieters is a switch hitter who can still become a .800+ OPS hitter. He has shown flashes of the hitter people expected him to be and has made progress in his offense this season.
Wieters being a .750 OPS catcher along with his defense is more valuable than if JP is an .820 OPS catcher with his bad defense. Calling a great game and controlling the running game are keys to being a great catcher. You seem to overlook this fact.
Wieters is an amazing defensive catcher. I have even heard from some scouts they think he is the best defensive catcher they have seen since Bench. That is extremely high praise. If his defense is that good, his offense does not need to become what everyone thought it could.
Once again 30 extra bases given to baserunners, so far this season, in 65 less innings caught. Those extra bases over a full season will add up and result in more runs scored.
Defense and pitching win games. Offense just makes it easier.
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You are wrong about that.....
It would probably be a 60/40 split in Wieters favor. His defense is that good. He might be a better defensive catcher than Pudge at teh same points in their careers.
Wieters has better track record offensive than JP while at Gtech and his short time in the minors. He made it to the big leagues a year in a half faster than JP and is only a year older.
JPs bat is better right now but Wieters is a switch hitter who can still become a .800+ OPS hitter. He has shown flashes of the hitter people expected him to be and has made progress in his offense this season.
Wieters being a .750 OPS catcher along with his defense is more valuable than if JP is an .820 OPS catcher with his bad defense. Calling a great game and controlling the running game are keys to being a great catcher. You seem to overlook this fact.
Wieters is an amazing defensive catcher. I have even heard from some scouts they think he is the best defensive catcher they have seen since Bench. That is extremely high praise. If his defense is that good, his offense does not need to become what everyone thought it could.
Once again 30 extra bases given to baserunners, so far this season, in 65 less innings caught. Those extra bases over a full season will add up and result in more runs scored.
Defense and pitching win games. Offense just makes it easier.
So that makes him better "all around than Posey"... stop trying to sound like a scout, you are making yourself look stupid...
Thank you URISS2302, Jpero this has been a good read, but your bias after 4 pages now is really ticking me off and alot of others too. Your entitled to your opnions but the majority are misinformed and foolish
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Quote Originally Posted by URISS2302:
So that makes him better "all around than Posey"... stop trying to sound like a scout, you are making yourself look stupid...
Thank you URISS2302, Jpero this has been a good read, but your bias after 4 pages now is really ticking me off and alot of others too. Your entitled to your opnions but the majority are misinformed and foolish
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