• Forums
  • Best Betting Sites
  • Sportsbook Promos
  • Best Sports Betting Apps
  • NFL Betting Forum
  • NBA Betting Forum
  • MLB Betting Forum
  • NHL Betting Forum
  • NCAAF Betting Forum
  • NCAAB Betting Forum
  • Soccer Betting Forum
  • Tennis Betting Forum
  • General Discussion
  • Help Forum
  • Guidelines
  • FAQ
  • Forum Updates
    Covers Logo
    Covers App
    Faster picks. Smarter bets.
    All in the NEW Covers App
    Download on the App Store Download on the Google Play Store
    • Sports
      • NFL
        • Back
        • NFL
        • NFL Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NFL Picks
        • Weather
        • Injuries
      • NCAAF
        • Back
        • NCAAF
        • NCAAF Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NCAAF Picks
        • Weather
        • Injuries
      • NBA
        • Back
        • NBA
        • NBA Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NBA Picks
        • Injuries
      • NCAAB
        • Back
        • NCAAB
        • NCAAB Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • NCAAB Picks
        • Injuries
      • MLB
        • Back
        • MLB
        • MLB Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • MLB Picks
        • Weather
        • Injuries
      • NHL
        • Back
        • NHL
        • NHL Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • Prop Projections
        • NHL Picks
        • Injuries
      • Soccer
      • UFC
      • WNBA
        • Back
        • WNBA
        • WNBA Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • WNBA Picks
        • Injuries
      • CFL
        • Back
        • CFL
        • CFL Home
        • Scores & Matchups
        • CFL Picks
      • Golf
        • Back
        • Golf
        • Golf Home
        • Golf Odds
        • Masters Odds
        • PGA Championship Odds
        • US Open Odds
        • British Open Odds
        • Ryder Cup Odds
        • Golf Picks
    • Odds
      • All Odds
      • NFL
      • NCAAF
      • NBA
      • NCAAB
      • MLB
      • NHL
      • Golf
      • Soccer Odds
        • Back
        • Soccer Odds
        • MLS Odds
        • Champions League Odds
        • Premier League Odds
      • UFC
      • WNBA
      • CFL
      • Election Odds
      • Futures
        • Back
        • Futures
        • NFL
        • NBA
        • MLB
        • NHL
        • NCAAB
        • NCAAF
      • Sports Odds History
    • Picks
      • All Picks
      • NFL
      • NBA
      • NHL
      • MLB
      • NCAAF
      • NCAAB
      • Golf
      • WNBA
      • CFL
      • User Picks
      • Team User Picks
      • Consensus Picks
        • Back
        • Consensus Picks
        • All Consensus Picks
        • NFL
        • NBA
        • NHL
        • MLB
        • NCAAF
        • NCAAB
        • CFL
        • WNBA
        • Consensus FAQ
        • Public Money
    • Prop Projections
      • NFL
      • NBA
      • MLB
      • NHL
    • Betting
      • US Betting Sites
      • Canada Betting Sites
      • Sportsbook Reviews
      • States
        • Back
        • States
        • US Legal Tracker
        • Revenue Tracker
        • Arizona
        • Arkansas
        • California
        • Colorado
        • Connecticut
        • DC
        • Florida
        • Georgia
        • Illinois
        • Indiana
        • Iowa
        • Kansas
        • Kentucky
        • Louisiana
        • Maine
        • Maryland
        • Massachusetts
        • Michigan
        • Mississippi
        • Missouri
        • Nevada
        • New Hampshire
        • New Jersey
        • New York
        • North Carolina
        • Ohio
        • Oregon
        • Pennsylvania
        • Tennessee
        • Texas
        • Vermont
        • Virginia
        • West Virginia
        • Wyoming
      • Provinces
        • Back
        • Provinces
        • Alberta
        • British Columbia
        • Manitoba
        • New Brunswick
        • Newfoundland and Labrador
        • Northwest Territories
        • Nova Scotia
        • Nunavut
        • Ontario
        • Prince Edward Island
        • Quebec (English)
        • Quebec (francais)
        • Saskatchewan
        • Yukon
      • By Sport
        • Back
        • By Sport
        • Baseball
        • Basketball
        • Boxing
        • College Football
        • F1
        • Football
        • Super Bowl
        • Golf
        • Hockey
        • Horse Racing
        • March Madness
        • Soccer
        • UFC
        • World Cup
      • Betting Apps
        • Back
        • Betting Apps
        • Best Sports Betting Apps USA
        • Ontario Sports Betting Apps
      • Rest of World
        • Back
        • Rest of World
        • UK Betting Offers
          • Back
          • UK Betting Offers
          • UK Betting Sites
          • bet365 Bonus Code UK
          • 888Sport Promo Code UK
          • William Hill Sign up Offer
          • Betway Sign up Offer
          • BetVictor Bonus Code UK
      • Betting Guides
        • Back
        • Betting Guides
        • All Guides
        • Glossary
        • Betting Calculators
          • Back
          • Betting Calculators
          • Odds Converter
          • Parlay Calculator
        • Futures Betting Guide
        • Moneyline Betting Guide
        • Over/Under Betting Guide
        • Parlay Betting Guide
        • Point Spread Betting Guide
        • Prop Betting Guide
        • Sports Betting Guides
          • Back
          • Sports Betting Guides
          • How To Bet On Sports Guide
          • NFL Betting Guide
          • NHL Betting Guide
          • NBA Betting Guide
          • MLB Betting Guide
          • NCAAB Betting Guide
          • NCAAF Betting Guide
          • Golf Betting Guide
          • Tennis Betting Guide
        • Teaser Betting Guide
      • Betting News
        • Back
        • Betting News
        • All News
        • Industry News
        • Podcasts
        • Covers Videos
        • Covers Writers
        • Offers & Boosts
    • Promos
      • Sportsbook Promos
      • Canada Sportsbook Promos
      • Bonuses By Sportsbook
        • Back
        • Bonuses By Sportsbook
        • bet365 Bonus Code
        • BET99 Promo Code
        • BetMGM Bonus Code
        • BetRivers Bonus Code
        • Caesars Sportsbook Promo
        • DraftKings Promo Code
        • Fanatics Sportsbook Promo
        • FanDuel Promo Code
        • Hard Rock Bet Promo Code
        • Sports Interaction Promo
        • Stake Promo Code
        • theScore Bet Promo Code
        • TonyBet Promo Code
      • Bonuses By Region
        • Back
        • Bonuses By Region
        • Arkansas Promos
        • Arizona Promos
        • Colorado Promos
        • Connecticut Promos
        • DC Promos
        • Illinois Promos
        • Indiana Promos
        • Iowa Promos
        • Kansas Promos
        • Kentucky Promos
        • Louisiana Promos
        • Maine Promos
        • Maryland Promos
        • Massachusetts Promos
        • Michigan Promos
        • Missouri Promos
        • New Jersey Promos
        • New York Promos
        • North Carolina Promos
        • Ohio Promos
        • Pennsylvania Promos
        • Tennessee Promos
        • Vermont Promos
        • Virginia Promos
        • West Virginia Promos
        • Wyoming Promos
    • Forum & Contests
      • All Forums
      • NFL Betting Forum
      • MLB Betting Forum
      • NCAAB Betting Forum
      • NCAAF Betting Forum
      • NBA Betting Forum
      • NHL Betting Forum
      • Soccer Betting Forum
      • Contests
        • Back
        • Contests
        • Contests Home
        • Streak Survivor
        • King of Covers
        • My Contests
    • Casino
      • Sweepstakes Casino
        • Back
        • Sweepstakes Casino
        • Sweepstakes Casino
        • Sweepstakes No-Deposit Bonuses
        • Sweepstakes Promos
          • Back
          • Sweepstakes Promos
          • Card Crush
          • Casino.click
          • Chanced Casino
          • Crown Coins Casino
          • FreeSpin Casino
          • LoneStar
          • McLuck
          • Mega Bonanza Casino
          • PlayFame
          • Pulsz
          • Stake.us
      • US Casinos
        • Back
        • US Casinos
        • US Online Casinos
        • US Online Casino Bonuses
        • Casino Promos
          • Back
          • Casino Promos
          • bet365 Casino Promo Code
          • BetRivers Casino Promo
          • Borgata Casino Bonus Code
          • Caesars Casino Bonus Code
          • DraftKings Casino Promo
          • Fanatics Casino Promo
          • FanDuel Casino Promo Code
          • Golden Nugget Casino Promo
          • Hard Rock Bet Casino Promo
          • Hollywood Casino Promo Code
      • Canada Casinos
        • Back
        • Canada Casinos
        • Canada Online Casinos
        • Provinces
          • Back
          • Provinces
          • Alberta Online Casino
          • BC Online Casino
          • Ontario Online Casinos
        • Casino Promos
          • Back
          • Casino Promos
          • BC.GAME Bonus Code
          • Cloudbet Promo Code
          • RainBet Promo Code
          • Roobet Promo Code
          • Shuffle Promo Code
          • Thrill Promo Code
    • Prediction Markets
      • Prediction Markets
      • Prediction Market Apps
      • Prediction Market Promos
      • Kalshi Promo Code
      • Polymarket Promo Code
      • DraftKings Predictions Promo Code
      • Novig Promo Code
      • ProphetX Promo Code
      • Underdog Promo Code
      • OG Promo Code
      • Fanatics Markets Promo Code
      • Plus500 Promo Code
    Covers Account
    Log in Create account
    Join free Log in
    All Forums | General Discussion

    If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity

    «First Previous 180181182 ... 213214215 Next Last»
    EX4life
    Rostos
    Mikniks
    BigJeezy70
    Wayne317
    Participants:
    Search model icon
    Views: 256997
    Posts: 5358
    «First Previous 180181182 ... 213214215 Next Last»
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:51 PM ET #4476

    The Resurrection:
    The resurrection is perhaps the most important event which proves Christ's divinity (and the Bible's credibility). Jesus was born, lived 33 years, and died. Three executioners signed his death certificate. His body was wrapped in a burial cloth mixed with about one hundred pounds of spices. The Romans had heard the rumor about the Messiah coming back to life, and knew what problems it would cause if it came true. They took every precaution against it happening.

    The tomb was actually a cave. A large stone was placed in front of its entrance. The tomb was sealed with a seal (probably a cord was stretched across it and sealed with a wax stamp at each end). Ten to thirty armed guards guarded it, knowing they could be put to death if anything went wrong. However, three days later the tomb was empty. It should be noted that the stone placed in front of Jesus' tomb was so large that it required several men to carry it. Not only was the wax seal broken and the stone pushed aside, but it was moved up the road completely away from the entrance of the tomb. In addition to this, the tomb wasn't empty but still contained the grave clothes that Jesus was buried in (these were still wrapped up, as if the person inside had simply disappeared). 

    The NT contains six independent testimonies to the fact of the resurrection. These six men (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul) wrote 24 of the 27 books of the NT. Included in their testimonies are various eyewitness accounts as well as reports of other interviewed witnesses of the risen Jesus, including one of over 500 people at one time (1 Cor. 15:6).

    Were these witnesses credible? Critical minds who have considered their testimony point out that these witnesses were both competent and honest. For example, they had no impure motives for their testimony, such as fear, money, or ambition. They had the opportunity to know the truth, were mentally capable, were not gullible, and the documents of their testimony are reliable. There were more than an adequate number of witnesses to verify truth. And there is no contrary evidence.

    Simon Greenleaf, Professor of law at Harvard from 1833 to 1848 has been called the greatest authority on legal evidences in the history of the world. When Greenleaf applied legal evidences to the resurrection event, he concluded that it was an historical reality, and that anyone who examined the evidence for it honestly would be convinced this was the case.

    In the 1930s a British journalist who was trained in the law, named Frank Morrison, set out to do the world a favor by once and for all exposing the superstition of Christ's resurrection. However, by using the test of evidence permitted in a court of law, he became convicted against his will of the truth of the resurrection, and detailed his findings in a book that is still in print, called Who Moved the Stone.

    Perhaps the most powerful evidence is the sheer conviction of the disciples. For 40 years after the resurrection, these men traveled throughout the land telling what they knew to be true. All of them were persecuted and all but one eventually put to death for their faith as testimony to the resurrected Jesus. People simply will not martyr themselves for what they believe to be a lie. People will only give their life for what they are absolutely convinced is true.

    Many of the religious and political leaders of the day had every reason to quell the Christian movement by refuting the resurrection testimony. They were unable to disprove it. John R. W. Stott insists that the silence of Christ's enemies "is as eloquent a proof of the resurrection as the apostles' witness." 

    The early Christian leaders were not a superstitious people, unable to determine truth from reality. They lived in a civilized world of sophisticated Greek and Roman culture. These men were fishermen, carpenters, a physician (Luke), etc., and certainly understood the laws of nature. They attested to the miracles of Jesus in that framework.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    The Resurrection:
    The resurrection is perhaps the most important event which proves Christ's divinity (and the Bible's credibility). Jesus was born, lived 33 years, and died. Three executioners signed his death certificate. His body was wrapped in a burial cloth mixed with about one hundred pounds of spices. The Romans had heard the rumor about the Messiah coming back to life, and knew what problems it would cause if it came true. They took every precaution against it happening.

    The tomb was actually a cave. A large stone was placed in front of its entrance. The tomb was sealed with a seal (probably a cord was stretched across it and sealed with a wax stamp at each end). Ten to thirty armed guards guarded it, knowing they could be put to death if anything went wrong. However, three days later the tomb was empty. It should be noted that the stone placed in front of Jesus' tomb was so large that it required several men to carry it. Not only was the wax seal broken and the stone pushed aside, but it was moved up the road completely away from the entrance of the tomb. In addition to this, the tomb wasn't empty but still contained the grave clothes that Jesus was buried in (these were still wrapped up, as if the person inside had simply disappeared). 

    The NT contains six independent testimonies to the fact of the resurrection. These six men (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul) wrote 24 of the 27 books of the NT. Included in their testimonies are various eyewitness accounts as well as reports of other interviewed witnesses of the risen Jesus, including one of over 500 people at one time (1 Cor. 15:6).

    Were these witnesses credible? Critical minds who have considered their testimony point out that these witnesses were both competent and honest. For example, they had no impure motives for their testimony, such as fear, money, or ambition. They had the opportunity to know the truth, were mentally capable, were not gullible, and the documents of their testimony are reliable. There were more than an adequate number of witnesses to verify truth. And there is no contrary evidence.

    Simon Greenleaf, Professor of law at Harvard from 1833 to 1848 has been called the greatest authority on legal evidences in the history of the world. When Greenleaf applied legal evidences to the resurrection event, he concluded that it was an historical reality, and that anyone who examined the evidence for it honestly would be convinced this was the case.

    In the 1930s a British journalist who was trained in the law, named Frank Morrison, set out to do the world a favor by once and for all exposing the superstition of Christ's resurrection. However, by using the test of evidence permitted in a court of law, he became convicted against his will of the truth of the resurrection, and detailed his findings in a book that is still in print, called Who Moved the Stone.

    Perhaps the most powerful evidence is the sheer conviction of the disciples. For 40 years after the resurrection, these men traveled throughout the land telling what they knew to be true. All of them were persecuted and all but one eventually put to death for their faith as testimony to the resurrected Jesus. People simply will not martyr themselves for what they believe to be a lie. People will only give their life for what they are absolutely convinced is true.

    Many of the religious and political leaders of the day had every reason to quell the Christian movement by refuting the resurrection testimony. They were unable to disprove it. John R. W. Stott insists that the silence of Christ's enemies "is as eloquent a proof of the resurrection as the apostles' witness." 

    The early Christian leaders were not a superstitious people, unable to determine truth from reality. They lived in a civilized world of sophisticated Greek and Roman culture. These men were fishermen, carpenters, a physician (Luke), etc., and certainly understood the laws of nature. They attested to the miracles of Jesus in that framework.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:51 PM ET #4477

    Let's now get specifically to the details surrounding Jesus' miracles.

    1) What Do Miracles Prove/Show?
    Miracles accomplished the following purposes:

    A. The Bible claims that miracles prove God exists and is the True God.
    a. The plagues on Egypt.
    -Exodus 9: 13-16; 10: 1,2 - The plagues on Egypt occurred so people throughout the world and even in future generations (which includes us today) would know Jehovah is the true God. And sure enough, people throughout history have heard of the plagues God brought on Egypt through Moses.
    -Exodus 12:12 - The plagues were also a judgment on the gods of Egypt. The main point is that Egyptian gods could not do such great works as these, nor could they resist the power of God. So God proved He is the true God in contrast to heathen idols.

    b. Crossing the Red Sea.
    -Exodus 14:18, 31 - The ultimate goal of the parting of the Sea was that God might gain honor, so the people would fear the Lord and believe in Him.
    -Joshua 24:5-7, 14 - As a result of these miracles, God would be honored and people would forsake other gods and serve only the true God.

    c. Manna in the Wilderness.
    -Exodus 16:12-15, 31-35 - God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. It fell like dew on the ground, so each morning they had simply to gather it for food. This confirmed to the people the existence of God.

    d. Giving the law at Mt. Sinai.
    -Deuteronomy 4:32-40 - Moses said that God led Israel out of Egypt by signs and wonders and then spoke to them out of great fire "that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."

    e. Crossing the Jordan on dry ground.
    -Joshua 4:22-24 - God caused the Jordan to stop flowing, so Israel could pass on dry ground. This gave people reason to fear the Lord as God forever.

    f. Elijah on Mt. Carmel.
    -1 Kings 18:36-39 - God sent fire from heaven (which Baal could not do) so people would know to believe in the true God and that Elijah was acting by God's authority.

    g. Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace.
    -Daniel 3 - Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon commanded men to bow to his image or be thrown into a fiery furnace. Daniel's three friends refused and were thrown in but were not harmed. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like that.

    Old Testament and New Testament miracles confirm the existence of God. Such events are impossible by natural means. The fact that they occurred proves there must be a God. And the fact these miracles were done by the God who guided the Bible writers proves that He is the true God, since no other "gods" can duplicate these acts.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Let's now get specifically to the details surrounding Jesus' miracles.

    1) What Do Miracles Prove/Show?
    Miracles accomplished the following purposes:

    A. The Bible claims that miracles prove God exists and is the True God.
    a. The plagues on Egypt.
    -Exodus 9: 13-16; 10: 1,2 - The plagues on Egypt occurred so people throughout the world and even in future generations (which includes us today) would know Jehovah is the true God. And sure enough, people throughout history have heard of the plagues God brought on Egypt through Moses.
    -Exodus 12:12 - The plagues were also a judgment on the gods of Egypt. The main point is that Egyptian gods could not do such great works as these, nor could they resist the power of God. So God proved He is the true God in contrast to heathen idols.

    b. Crossing the Red Sea.
    -Exodus 14:18, 31 - The ultimate goal of the parting of the Sea was that God might gain honor, so the people would fear the Lord and believe in Him.
    -Joshua 24:5-7, 14 - As a result of these miracles, God would be honored and people would forsake other gods and serve only the true God.

    c. Manna in the Wilderness.
    -Exodus 16:12-15, 31-35 - God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. It fell like dew on the ground, so each morning they had simply to gather it for food. This confirmed to the people the existence of God.

    d. Giving the law at Mt. Sinai.
    -Deuteronomy 4:32-40 - Moses said that God led Israel out of Egypt by signs and wonders and then spoke to them out of great fire "that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him."

    e. Crossing the Jordan on dry ground.
    -Joshua 4:22-24 - God caused the Jordan to stop flowing, so Israel could pass on dry ground. This gave people reason to fear the Lord as God forever.

    f. Elijah on Mt. Carmel.
    -1 Kings 18:36-39 - God sent fire from heaven (which Baal could not do) so people would know to believe in the true God and that Elijah was acting by God's authority.

    g. Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace.
    -Daniel 3 - Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon commanded men to bow to his image or be thrown into a fiery furnace. Daniel's three friends refused and were thrown in but were not harmed. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like that.

    Old Testament and New Testament miracles confirm the existence of God. Such events are impossible by natural means. The fact that they occurred proves there must be a God. And the fact these miracles were done by the God who guided the Bible writers proves that He is the true God, since no other "gods" can duplicate these acts.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:51 PM ET #4478

    B. The Bible claims that miracles prove Jesus is God's Son as He claimed.
    The miracles Jesus performed attest to His exalted spiritual office, His deity. They provide evidence that He was God made flesh, and dwelt with humans (John 1:1, 14). Consider these examples.

    a. Matthew 8:27 - When Jesus stilled the storm, the disciples cried out, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"

    b. John 2:23 - When he was in Jerusalem on the Passover "many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did."

    c. John 6:14 - When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves of bread and two fishes, the people said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."

    d. Mark 2:3-12 - Jesus claimed that His power to heal proved He also had power to forgive sins, which only God could do.

    e. John 3:2 - Nicodemus said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him.

    f. John 5:36 - Jesus declared his miracles to be evidence he had come from God - and was God.

    g. John 10:37, 38; 14:10, 11 - Jesus claimed people should believe His works, so they would know the Father is in Him and He in the Father.

    h. Acts 2:22-24 - God gave testimony to Jesus by doing wonders, signs, and miracles through Him. The point is that Jesus did works that were impossible by natural law. If He had been an imposter, God would not have allowed Him to do such works. The fact God allowed Him to do them would confirm the validity of His claims
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    B. The Bible claims that miracles prove Jesus is God's Son as He claimed.
    The miracles Jesus performed attest to His exalted spiritual office, His deity. They provide evidence that He was God made flesh, and dwelt with humans (John 1:1, 14). Consider these examples.

    a. Matthew 8:27 - When Jesus stilled the storm, the disciples cried out, "Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"

    b. John 2:23 - When he was in Jerusalem on the Passover "many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did."

    c. John 6:14 - When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves of bread and two fishes, the people said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."

    d. Mark 2:3-12 - Jesus claimed that His power to heal proved He also had power to forgive sins, which only God could do.

    e. John 3:2 - Nicodemus said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him.

    f. John 5:36 - Jesus declared his miracles to be evidence he had come from God - and was God.

    g. John 10:37, 38; 14:10, 11 - Jesus claimed people should believe His works, so they would know the Father is in Him and He in the Father.

    h. Acts 2:22-24 - God gave testimony to Jesus by doing wonders, signs, and miracles through Him. The point is that Jesus did works that were impossible by natural law. If He had been an imposter, God would not have allowed Him to do such works. The fact God allowed Him to do them would confirm the validity of His claims
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:51 PM ET #4479

    C. The Bible claims that miracles prove Bible writers (& other Prophets) were inspired by God.
    Bible writers and prophets said that miracles done through them confirmed that their message was from God.

    a. Old Testament prophets.
    -Exodus 4:1-9 - Moses feared that the people would not believe God had sent him. So God gave him signs expressly to convince the people to believe.
    -Exodus 14:30, 31 - After the crossing of the Red Sea, the people believed the Lord and His servant Moses.
    -Joshua 3:7-17 - When Joshua led Israel across the Jordan on dry ground, God said this showed the people that He was with Joshua as He had been with Moses.

    b. New Testament prophets.
    -Mark 16:20 - Jesus sent apostles to preach, and as they did so, He worked with them, confirming the word by the signs He gave them.
    -Acts 14:3 - God spoke through Paul and Barnabas. He bore witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
    -2 Corinthians 12:11, 12 - Signs, wonders, and miracles would confirm one was an apostle.
    -Hebrews 2:3, 4 - God bore witness to the message of salvation by signs, wonders, etc.

    People needed a way to distinguish true prophets from false ones. If men could do works that could be performed only by the power of God, people would know God was working in those men and they would believe the message preached. Miracles were a deliberate demonstration by God to prove that He exists, that Jesus is His Son, and that the Bible writers and prophets were His spokesmen.

    D. Biblical miracles show expressions of God's character and love.
    A valuable way of understanding the meaning of miracles is to examine the various terms for miracles used in the Bible. Both the OT and the NT use the word sign (Is. 7:11, 14; John 2:11) to denote a miracle that points to a deeper revelation. Wonder (Joel 2:30; Mark 13:22) emphasizes the effect of the miracle, causing awe and even terror. A work (Matt. 11:2) points to the presence of God in history, acting for mankind. The NT uses the word power (Mark 6:7) to emphasize God's acting in strength. These terms often overlap in meaning (Acts 2:43). These terms are also more specific than the more general term "miracle." As with the OT, the NT miracles are essentially expressions of God's salvation and glory.

    Why did Jesus perform miracles? Jesus answered this question Himself: "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor" (Matt. 11:5). With these words, Jesus declared that His miracles were the fulfillment of the promises of the Messiah's kingdom as foretold by Isaiah (24:18-19; 35:5-6; 61:1). Jesus' miracles were signs of the presence of the kingdom of God (Matt. 12:39).

    This theme of the miracles pointing to the kingdom of God was developed and deepened especially in the Gospel of John. John presented the miracles of Jesus as "signs" on seven occasions. He thought of these miracles as pointing to deep spiritual truth, demanding obedient faith (John 2:11, 23-25).

    Jesus also understood His miracles as evidences of the presence of the kingdom in His ministry (Matt 11:2-5; 12:28). Every miracle story was a sign that God's salvation was present. But not only did the kingdom come; it came in great power, because the dead were raised (Is. 26:19; Luke 7:11-15) and Satan was bound (Mark 3:27). Jesus' miracles were also performed upon the most unlikely people. Jesus consciously brought the salvation of God to those who were rejected. He healed the lame (Matt. 9:1-8), the dumb (Matt 9:32-33), and lepers (Luke 17:11-19). Jesus brought the kingdom to all, regardless of their condition. But Jesus' miracles were not theatrical sensations. He demanded faith of others (Matt 9:2). The hemorrhaging woman was healed because of her faith (Matt 9:18-26). Finally, we gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in His miracles.  He is the Lord over nature (Mark 4:35-41) and death (Luke 8:41-46; John 11:1-44). He is the Suffering Servant who bears the infirmities of others (Matt 8:16-17). He is the Messiah who was to come (Matt 11:2-6). He fights the battle against evil (Mark 3:23-30; Luke 11:18-23).
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    C. The Bible claims that miracles prove Bible writers (& other Prophets) were inspired by God.
    Bible writers and prophets said that miracles done through them confirmed that their message was from God.

    a. Old Testament prophets.
    -Exodus 4:1-9 - Moses feared that the people would not believe God had sent him. So God gave him signs expressly to convince the people to believe.
    -Exodus 14:30, 31 - After the crossing of the Red Sea, the people believed the Lord and His servant Moses.
    -Joshua 3:7-17 - When Joshua led Israel across the Jordan on dry ground, God said this showed the people that He was with Joshua as He had been with Moses.

    b. New Testament prophets.
    -Mark 16:20 - Jesus sent apostles to preach, and as they did so, He worked with them, confirming the word by the signs He gave them.
    -Acts 14:3 - God spoke through Paul and Barnabas. He bore witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
    -2 Corinthians 12:11, 12 - Signs, wonders, and miracles would confirm one was an apostle.
    -Hebrews 2:3, 4 - God bore witness to the message of salvation by signs, wonders, etc.

    People needed a way to distinguish true prophets from false ones. If men could do works that could be performed only by the power of God, people would know God was working in those men and they would believe the message preached. Miracles were a deliberate demonstration by God to prove that He exists, that Jesus is His Son, and that the Bible writers and prophets were His spokesmen.

    D. Biblical miracles show expressions of God's character and love.
    A valuable way of understanding the meaning of miracles is to examine the various terms for miracles used in the Bible. Both the OT and the NT use the word sign (Is. 7:11, 14; John 2:11) to denote a miracle that points to a deeper revelation. Wonder (Joel 2:30; Mark 13:22) emphasizes the effect of the miracle, causing awe and even terror. A work (Matt. 11:2) points to the presence of God in history, acting for mankind. The NT uses the word power (Mark 6:7) to emphasize God's acting in strength. These terms often overlap in meaning (Acts 2:43). These terms are also more specific than the more general term "miracle." As with the OT, the NT miracles are essentially expressions of God's salvation and glory.

    Why did Jesus perform miracles? Jesus answered this question Himself: "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor" (Matt. 11:5). With these words, Jesus declared that His miracles were the fulfillment of the promises of the Messiah's kingdom as foretold by Isaiah (24:18-19; 35:5-6; 61:1). Jesus' miracles were signs of the presence of the kingdom of God (Matt. 12:39).

    This theme of the miracles pointing to the kingdom of God was developed and deepened especially in the Gospel of John. John presented the miracles of Jesus as "signs" on seven occasions. He thought of these miracles as pointing to deep spiritual truth, demanding obedient faith (John 2:11, 23-25).

    Jesus also understood His miracles as evidences of the presence of the kingdom in His ministry (Matt 11:2-5; 12:28). Every miracle story was a sign that God's salvation was present. But not only did the kingdom come; it came in great power, because the dead were raised (Is. 26:19; Luke 7:11-15) and Satan was bound (Mark 3:27). Jesus' miracles were also performed upon the most unlikely people. Jesus consciously brought the salvation of God to those who were rejected. He healed the lame (Matt. 9:1-8), the dumb (Matt 9:32-33), and lepers (Luke 17:11-19). Jesus brought the kingdom to all, regardless of their condition. But Jesus' miracles were not theatrical sensations. He demanded faith of others (Matt 9:2). The hemorrhaging woman was healed because of her faith (Matt 9:18-26). Finally, we gain a deeper understanding of Jesus in His miracles.  He is the Lord over nature (Mark 4:35-41) and death (Luke 8:41-46; John 11:1-44). He is the Suffering Servant who bears the infirmities of others (Matt 8:16-17). He is the Messiah who was to come (Matt 11:2-6). He fights the battle against evil (Mark 3:23-30; Luke 11:18-23).
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:52 PM ET #4480

    2) Science vs Miracles:
    Jesus' teaching on the reign of God was related to Israel's hopes of fulfillment and to answering the problem of evil. Yet, if Jesus merely challenged people with strange stories and confronting sayings, he would be easily dismissed as just another religious "nut." Jesus not only spoke about the kingdom, he reinforced His message through what came to be described as wondrous deeds and miraculous events. To modern ears, influenced by scientific understandings of causality and the laws of nature, Jesus' miracle stories are met with skepticism. And yet, contemporary secular culture greets stories of the paranormal with an increased degree of interest... ironic isn't it.

    There are only two possible explanations for the miracle stories in the Gospels. Either Jesus' miracles happened or they did not. Many scholars have opted for the second alternative, casting doubt on the Bible's truth. They may accept the value of Jesus' moral teachings but consider the miracles to be stories with a lesson, or pious frauds.

    Many scholars have been suspicious of the biblical miracles because they could not be explained by natural means. The French philologist and historian Ernest Renan (1823-1892) said, "No miracle has ever taken place under conditions which science can accept."

    True, science cannot demonstrate that the miracles ascribed to Jesus really occurred. However, just because we cannot explain miracles scientifically does not mean they did not take place. To prove or disprove any natural phenomenon, science typically depends on verifiable, repeatable experimentation. Science depends upon observation and replication. Miracles, such as the Incarnation (Christ's virgin birth) and the Resurrection, are by their very nature unprecedented events. No one can replicate these events in a laboratory. Miracles are, by nature, unrepeatable - the result of God supernaturally suspending, or transcending, the created order and the laws of nature. Hence, science simply cannot be the judge and jury as to whether or not these events occurred. Since the Bible states that Jesus' miracles were accomplished by supernatural power, we should not expect to find any natural explanation. By definition, a miracle is something beyond the scope of science to explain. Author Ron Rhodes says, "The scientific method is useful for studying nature, but not super-nature." Miracles deviate from the known laws of nature by definition. Science and scholarship can neither confirm nor deny whether Jesus performed miracles.

    Laws of Logic vs Laws of Nature:
    The laws of logic are sometimes confused with the laws of nature. The laws of logic are prescriptive. They define the basic and inviolable parameters and unavoidable patterns of human thinking. On the other hand, the laws of nature are descriptive. They are a record of how the natural world normally operates. Scientific laws don;t control or explain events. They are only a generalized record of those events. The laws of logic constitute a perfect standard. The laws of nature describe actual reality. God can suspend the laws of nature at will because He designed them. He would not (and actually cannot) violate the laws of logic, because they are a part of His nature. C.S. Lewis said, "If a man has no conception of a regular order in nature, then of course he could not notice departures from that order. When the disciples saw Christ walking on the water, they were frightened: they would not have been frightened unless they had known the laws of nature, and know that this was an exception."

    Science, Nature, and Scripture:
    I believe that nature and Scripture, properly interpreted, do not conflict. God has communicated to humankind both by general revelation (nature; the observable universe) and special revelation (the Bible). Since both of these revelations come from God - and since God does not contradict Himself - we must conclude that these two revelations are in agreement with each other. While there may be conflicts between one's interpretation of the observable universe and one's interpretation of the Bible, there's no ultimate contradiction.

    We might say that science is a fallible human interpretation of the observable universe while theology is a fallible human interpretation of the Scriptures. Science historian Thomas Kuhn proved in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions - that is, science is in a constant state of change. New discoveries have consistently cause old scientific paradigms to be discarded in favor of newer paradigms.

    Here is the point: It is not nature and Scripture that contradict; rather, it is science (man's fallible interpretation of nature) and theology (man's fallible interpretation of Scripture) that sometimes fall into conflict. Hence one cannot simply dismiss certain parts of the Bible because "science and the Bible contradict."
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    2) Science vs Miracles:
    Jesus' teaching on the reign of God was related to Israel's hopes of fulfillment and to answering the problem of evil. Yet, if Jesus merely challenged people with strange stories and confronting sayings, he would be easily dismissed as just another religious "nut." Jesus not only spoke about the kingdom, he reinforced His message through what came to be described as wondrous deeds and miraculous events. To modern ears, influenced by scientific understandings of causality and the laws of nature, Jesus' miracle stories are met with skepticism. And yet, contemporary secular culture greets stories of the paranormal with an increased degree of interest... ironic isn't it.

    There are only two possible explanations for the miracle stories in the Gospels. Either Jesus' miracles happened or they did not. Many scholars have opted for the second alternative, casting doubt on the Bible's truth. They may accept the value of Jesus' moral teachings but consider the miracles to be stories with a lesson, or pious frauds.

    Many scholars have been suspicious of the biblical miracles because they could not be explained by natural means. The French philologist and historian Ernest Renan (1823-1892) said, "No miracle has ever taken place under conditions which science can accept."

    True, science cannot demonstrate that the miracles ascribed to Jesus really occurred. However, just because we cannot explain miracles scientifically does not mean they did not take place. To prove or disprove any natural phenomenon, science typically depends on verifiable, repeatable experimentation. Science depends upon observation and replication. Miracles, such as the Incarnation (Christ's virgin birth) and the Resurrection, are by their very nature unprecedented events. No one can replicate these events in a laboratory. Miracles are, by nature, unrepeatable - the result of God supernaturally suspending, or transcending, the created order and the laws of nature. Hence, science simply cannot be the judge and jury as to whether or not these events occurred. Since the Bible states that Jesus' miracles were accomplished by supernatural power, we should not expect to find any natural explanation. By definition, a miracle is something beyond the scope of science to explain. Author Ron Rhodes says, "The scientific method is useful for studying nature, but not super-nature." Miracles deviate from the known laws of nature by definition. Science and scholarship can neither confirm nor deny whether Jesus performed miracles.

    Laws of Logic vs Laws of Nature:
    The laws of logic are sometimes confused with the laws of nature. The laws of logic are prescriptive. They define the basic and inviolable parameters and unavoidable patterns of human thinking. On the other hand, the laws of nature are descriptive. They are a record of how the natural world normally operates. Scientific laws don;t control or explain events. They are only a generalized record of those events. The laws of logic constitute a perfect standard. The laws of nature describe actual reality. God can suspend the laws of nature at will because He designed them. He would not (and actually cannot) violate the laws of logic, because they are a part of His nature. C.S. Lewis said, "If a man has no conception of a regular order in nature, then of course he could not notice departures from that order. When the disciples saw Christ walking on the water, they were frightened: they would not have been frightened unless they had known the laws of nature, and know that this was an exception."

    Science, Nature, and Scripture:
    I believe that nature and Scripture, properly interpreted, do not conflict. God has communicated to humankind both by general revelation (nature; the observable universe) and special revelation (the Bible). Since both of these revelations come from God - and since God does not contradict Himself - we must conclude that these two revelations are in agreement with each other. While there may be conflicts between one's interpretation of the observable universe and one's interpretation of the Bible, there's no ultimate contradiction.

    We might say that science is a fallible human interpretation of the observable universe while theology is a fallible human interpretation of the Scriptures. Science historian Thomas Kuhn proved in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions - that is, science is in a constant state of change. New discoveries have consistently cause old scientific paradigms to be discarded in favor of newer paradigms.

    Here is the point: It is not nature and Scripture that contradict; rather, it is science (man's fallible interpretation of nature) and theology (man's fallible interpretation of Scripture) that sometimes fall into conflict. Hence one cannot simply dismiss certain parts of the Bible because "science and the Bible contradict."
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:52 PM ET #4481

    3) The Characteristics of True Miracles
    The power of miracles as evidence rests in the nature of the acts themselves. Considering the specific details of Bible miracles will help us see the convincing nature of the evidence. This evidence is further strengthened when we contrast Bible miracles to the so-called miracles fraudulently claimed by those who are not really from God.

    A) There was conclusive evidence that the miraculous even occurred.
    i) The occurrence of the event was unmistakably evident to observers.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles in cases of invisible or undetectable diseases. Or the problem may be psychosomatic, cause by the person's mental or emotional state, such that an improvement in their mental or emotional state would remove the problem. Often there is no obvious evidence that the supposed event occurred at all. In some cases, in fact, the whole thing could have been staged or faked in harmony with natural law. Contrast this to the following examples of Bible miracles. We will see no sleight of hand or trickery. In miraculous healings, there was clear evidence that the people had organic disorders, and there was conclusive proof that the problem was removed.
    -Lazarus (John 11): It was clear to all witnesses that Lazarus had been dead four days yet came alive again.
    -Blind man (John 9): It was unquestionably proved that the man could not see from birth, but then he was so healed he could see.
    -Woman bowed together (Luke 13): All could see she was hunch-backed, but then she was straightened.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): Many people knew the man could not walk, but it was obvious that he was enabled to do so.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): The man had died and a great multitude gathered for his funeral procession. Yet Jesus raised him in the presence of the crowd.
    -Elymas (Acts 13): Elymas was a sorcerer who opposed Paul's effort to convert a proconsul. Paul struck him blind temporarily, resulting in the proconsul's conversion.

    ii) Local people were personally involved in the miracles.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles that supposedly happened to someone somewhere whom no one knows locally, so no one can visit them to verify the event. In contrast, local people received the effect of the Bible miracles, and local people could observe for themselves and check the matter out. They could question the people involved, check out whether they had really been ill, observe if there was a complete healing or whether there were relapses, etc. Hence, they could determine for themselves whether there had been a real miracle.
    -Lazarus (John 11): Lazarus was healed in his hometown, where he was known to be dead and could then be observed alive.
    -Blind man (John 9): To determine the validity of the healing, people could contact witnesses. Jesus was not afraid to have people check out the validity of His miracles.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): This young man was raised from the dead in the presence of his own funeral party - the very people who knew him best, knew of his death, and could see for themselves that he had come back to life.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): This man was known by the people of the city to be lame. Multitudes of these people saw him before and after he was healed.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    3) The Characteristics of True Miracles
    The power of miracles as evidence rests in the nature of the acts themselves. Considering the specific details of Bible miracles will help us see the convincing nature of the evidence. This evidence is further strengthened when we contrast Bible miracles to the so-called miracles fraudulently claimed by those who are not really from God.

    A) There was conclusive evidence that the miraculous even occurred.
    i) The occurrence of the event was unmistakably evident to observers.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles in cases of invisible or undetectable diseases. Or the problem may be psychosomatic, cause by the person's mental or emotional state, such that an improvement in their mental or emotional state would remove the problem. Often there is no obvious evidence that the supposed event occurred at all. In some cases, in fact, the whole thing could have been staged or faked in harmony with natural law. Contrast this to the following examples of Bible miracles. We will see no sleight of hand or trickery. In miraculous healings, there was clear evidence that the people had organic disorders, and there was conclusive proof that the problem was removed.
    -Lazarus (John 11): It was clear to all witnesses that Lazarus had been dead four days yet came alive again.
    -Blind man (John 9): It was unquestionably proved that the man could not see from birth, but then he was so healed he could see.
    -Woman bowed together (Luke 13): All could see she was hunch-backed, but then she was straightened.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): Many people knew the man could not walk, but it was obvious that he was enabled to do so.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): The man had died and a great multitude gathered for his funeral procession. Yet Jesus raised him in the presence of the crowd.
    -Elymas (Acts 13): Elymas was a sorcerer who opposed Paul's effort to convert a proconsul. Paul struck him blind temporarily, resulting in the proconsul's conversion.

    ii) Local people were personally involved in the miracles.
    -Fake miracle workers often claim miracles that supposedly happened to someone somewhere whom no one knows locally, so no one can visit them to verify the event. In contrast, local people received the effect of the Bible miracles, and local people could observe for themselves and check the matter out. They could question the people involved, check out whether they had really been ill, observe if there was a complete healing or whether there were relapses, etc. Hence, they could determine for themselves whether there had been a real miracle.
    -Lazarus (John 11): Lazarus was healed in his hometown, where he was known to be dead and could then be observed alive.
    -Blind man (John 9): To determine the validity of the healing, people could contact witnesses. Jesus was not afraid to have people check out the validity of His miracles.
    -Son of the widow of Nain (Luke 7): This young man was raised from the dead in the presence of his own funeral party - the very people who knew him best, knew of his death, and could see for themselves that he had come back to life.
    -Lame man (Acts 3): This man was known by the people of the city to be lame. Multitudes of these people saw him before and after he was healed.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:53 PM ET #4482

    iii) Miracles were often done in the presence of unbelievers, false teachers, and even false miracle-workers.
    -Fake faith healers often refuse to do miracles if doubters or opponents are present, or they excuse their failure on the grounds that the observers lack faith. But when men of God had true power to do miracles, they were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who had questions or doubts, or even people who openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the difference. Observers could investigate for themselves the validity of the miracles.
    -Ten Plagues & Red Sea (Exodus 8; 14): Pharaoh's magicians tried to duplicate Moses' miracles, but eventually admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God. Pharaoh and him army witnessed the crossing of the Red Sea, and they drowned when the water collapsed.
    -Elijah on Mt. Carmel (1 Kings 18): The people of Israel doubted who the true God was. Yet in their presence Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles.
    -Daniel's three friends (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon compelled the people to worship an idol. He threw Daniel's three friends into a fiery furnace, then he and his advisors witnessed that they were not hurt in any way.
    -Malchus (Luke 22): When Jesus was being arrested, Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's servant. In the presence of the very men who were arresting Him, Jesus restored the man's ear!
    -Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8): Simon did works claimed to be from God, but Philip did true miracles in his presence. Simon was so amazed by the contrast that he was converted.

    B) True miracles occurred at a specific point in time.
    Many modern so-called miraculous healings gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months, yet people still claim it is a miracle. Bible healings did not gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months; but occurred instantaneously.
    -Acts 3: The lame man immediately leaped and walked.
    -Luke 13: The hunch-backed woman was immediately made straight.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man got up immediately.
    -Mark 5: The woman with an issue of blood for 12 years was healed immediately.
    -Mark 5: Jairus' daughter had been dead but arose immediately.

    C) True miracles were always successful.
    Modern so-called miracle workers often attempt miracles but fail, especially when attempting to heal obvious physical deformities. Neither Jesus nor His apostles (after they received Holy Spirit baptism) ever attempted to do a miracle and failed. There was no kind of disease they were unable to heal.
    -Matthew 4: Jesus healed all manner of diseases.
    -Matthew 14: All were healed.
    -Acts 5: They were healed every one.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    iii) Miracles were often done in the presence of unbelievers, false teachers, and even false miracle-workers.
    -Fake faith healers often refuse to do miracles if doubters or opponents are present, or they excuse their failure on the grounds that the observers lack faith. But when men of God had true power to do miracles, they were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who had questions or doubts, or even people who openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the difference. Observers could investigate for themselves the validity of the miracles.
    -Ten Plagues & Red Sea (Exodus 8; 14): Pharaoh's magicians tried to duplicate Moses' miracles, but eventually admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God. Pharaoh and him army witnessed the crossing of the Red Sea, and they drowned when the water collapsed.
    -Elijah on Mt. Carmel (1 Kings 18): The people of Israel doubted who the true God was. Yet in their presence Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles.
    -Daniel's three friends (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon compelled the people to worship an idol. He threw Daniel's three friends into a fiery furnace, then he and his advisors witnessed that they were not hurt in any way.
    -Malchus (Luke 22): When Jesus was being arrested, Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's servant. In the presence of the very men who were arresting Him, Jesus restored the man's ear!
    -Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8): Simon did works claimed to be from God, but Philip did true miracles in his presence. Simon was so amazed by the contrast that he was converted.

    B) True miracles occurred at a specific point in time.
    Many modern so-called miraculous healings gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months, yet people still claim it is a miracle. Bible healings did not gradually develop over a period of days, weeks, or months; but occurred instantaneously.
    -Acts 3: The lame man immediately leaped and walked.
    -Luke 13: The hunch-backed woman was immediately made straight.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man got up immediately.
    -Mark 5: The woman with an issue of blood for 12 years was healed immediately.
    -Mark 5: Jairus' daughter had been dead but arose immediately.

    C) True miracles were always successful.
    Modern so-called miracle workers often attempt miracles but fail, especially when attempting to heal obvious physical deformities. Neither Jesus nor His apostles (after they received Holy Spirit baptism) ever attempted to do a miracle and failed. There was no kind of disease they were unable to heal.
    -Matthew 4: Jesus healed all manner of diseases.
    -Matthew 14: All were healed.
    -Acts 5: They were healed every one.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:53 PM ET #4483

    D) True miracles were complete and perfect.
    Modern so-called miracles often involve partial improvements or relapses or require further medical care and treatment, yet the results are claimed to be miracles. Biblical miracles always completely accomplished what the inspired man said they would and always completely satisfied the need. In healings, people returned immediately to complete and normal health. Every symptom of the disease was removed.
    -Matthew 12: A man's withered hand was restored whole as the other hand.
    -Mark 1: The leper showed himself to the priest as evidence of a complete healing.
    -Acts 3: The lame man leaped and walked.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man could walk and carry his bed.

    The point is that these events clearly demonstrated to the observers that something impossible by natural law had occurred; therefore it had to be evidence of God's power. This was necessary in order for miracles to accomplish their purpose of confirming the word preached.

    Some skeptics are mystified about the miracle stories in the Gospels, as they seem to be gems or reporting that even modern newspaper reporters would be proud of.

    Canon Anthony Harvey of Westminster Abbey, an Anglican scholar, observes that this feature of the Gospel accounts is unique in ancient literature: "They do not exaggerate the miracle or add sensational details." He points out, "To a degree that is rare in the writings of antiquity, we can say, to use a modern phrase, that they tell the story straight."
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    D) True miracles were complete and perfect.
    Modern so-called miracles often involve partial improvements or relapses or require further medical care and treatment, yet the results are claimed to be miracles. Biblical miracles always completely accomplished what the inspired man said they would and always completely satisfied the need. In healings, people returned immediately to complete and normal health. Every symptom of the disease was removed.
    -Matthew 12: A man's withered hand was restored whole as the other hand.
    -Mark 1: The leper showed himself to the priest as evidence of a complete healing.
    -Acts 3: The lame man leaped and walked.
    -Mark 2: The paralyzed man could walk and carry his bed.

    The point is that these events clearly demonstrated to the observers that something impossible by natural law had occurred; therefore it had to be evidence of God's power. This was necessary in order for miracles to accomplish their purpose of confirming the word preached.

    Some skeptics are mystified about the miracle stories in the Gospels, as they seem to be gems or reporting that even modern newspaper reporters would be proud of.

    Canon Anthony Harvey of Westminster Abbey, an Anglican scholar, observes that this feature of the Gospel accounts is unique in ancient literature: "They do not exaggerate the miracle or add sensational details." He points out, "To a degree that is rare in the writings of antiquity, we can say, to use a modern phrase, that they tell the story straight."
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:53 PM ET #4484

    4) Evidence that Miracles Occurred.
    Since we cannot personally see Jesus and the Bible writers, how can we reach a verdict whether or not miracles really occurred? Again, we must examine the testimony of witnesses.

    A) Writers who recorded Bible miracles.
    Some say that the gospel accounts were simply altered to make it look like Jesus was performing miracles which never happened. However, it is not very probable; the eyewitnesses of Jesus' miracles were still around when the gospels were written and could have easily refuted such claims. Yet, we have no record of any such refutations. The disciples died for what they believed. It was not simply dying for principles or a philosophy like Buddhism. They died for their belief in the risen Lord Jesus who claimed to be God and performed miracles in front of their very eyes. This is far different than believing in something that wasn't tangible or a belief for the sake of believing and being good.

    i) Miracles Jesus performed.
    The time and place in which Jesus lived was not characterized by superstition and gullibility, but by learning and skepticism. This means that the miracles recorded in the Bible (witnessed by thousands of people) should be considered true. It is said that when Jesus came, "His fame spread all throughout Syria; they brought unto Him all sick people taken with diseases, and all that were possessed with devils and He healed them." (Matt. 4:24)
    -Here are a few of the writers who described Biblical miracles:
    -Moses: Exodus 7-12: Moses described in detail how God brought the plagues on Egypt to give evidence that He is God.
    -Exodus 14: Moses recorded the parting of the Red Sea, so Israel passed through on dry ground.
    -Exodus 16: God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. To confirm the manna, God had Moses put a pot of it in the ark, so Israel could carry it with them into Canaan. *Note that Moses was a first-hand eyewitness of the miracles he records.

    -Joshua: Joshua 24: Joshua confirmed the crossing of the Red Sea. Remember, he would have been an eyewitness, so his testimony confirms that of Moses.
    -Joshua 3-4: He also wrote as an eyewitness that God stopped the flow of the Jordan so that Israel crossed it on dry ground.
    -Joshua 5: As an eyewitness, Joshua confirmed Moses' record regarding the manna.
    -Joshua 6: Joshua recorded the fall of the walls of Jericho by miraculous means.

    -Matthew: Matt 9-10: Like the other original apostles, Matthew personally accompanied Jesus for three years; so his record constitutes eyewitness testimony of Jesus' miracles. Furthermore, he himself did miracles by the power Jesus gave the apostles.
    -Matt 14: Every time the account says the apostles (or twelve disciples) were present, Matthew would have been included. In this case, he joined the other apostles in confessing Jesus to be the Son of God, because they witnessed his walking on the water.
    -Like Moses and Joshua, etc., Matthew was an inspired man who wrote part of the Bible, who was a personal eyewitness to miracles done by other inspired men, and whose work as a prophet was confirmed by miracles he himself was empowered by God to do.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    4) Evidence that Miracles Occurred.
    Since we cannot personally see Jesus and the Bible writers, how can we reach a verdict whether or not miracles really occurred? Again, we must examine the testimony of witnesses.

    A) Writers who recorded Bible miracles.
    Some say that the gospel accounts were simply altered to make it look like Jesus was performing miracles which never happened. However, it is not very probable; the eyewitnesses of Jesus' miracles were still around when the gospels were written and could have easily refuted such claims. Yet, we have no record of any such refutations. The disciples died for what they believed. It was not simply dying for principles or a philosophy like Buddhism. They died for their belief in the risen Lord Jesus who claimed to be God and performed miracles in front of their very eyes. This is far different than believing in something that wasn't tangible or a belief for the sake of believing and being good.

    i) Miracles Jesus performed.
    The time and place in which Jesus lived was not characterized by superstition and gullibility, but by learning and skepticism. This means that the miracles recorded in the Bible (witnessed by thousands of people) should be considered true. It is said that when Jesus came, "His fame spread all throughout Syria; they brought unto Him all sick people taken with diseases, and all that were possessed with devils and He healed them." (Matt. 4:24)
    -Here are a few of the writers who described Biblical miracles:
    -Moses: Exodus 7-12: Moses described in detail how God brought the plagues on Egypt to give evidence that He is God.
    -Exodus 14: Moses recorded the parting of the Red Sea, so Israel passed through on dry ground.
    -Exodus 16: God provided Manna as food for Israel for forty years as they traveled to Canaan. To confirm the manna, God had Moses put a pot of it in the ark, so Israel could carry it with them into Canaan. *Note that Moses was a first-hand eyewitness of the miracles he records.

    -Joshua: Joshua 24: Joshua confirmed the crossing of the Red Sea. Remember, he would have been an eyewitness, so his testimony confirms that of Moses.
    -Joshua 3-4: He also wrote as an eyewitness that God stopped the flow of the Jordan so that Israel crossed it on dry ground.
    -Joshua 5: As an eyewitness, Joshua confirmed Moses' record regarding the manna.
    -Joshua 6: Joshua recorded the fall of the walls of Jericho by miraculous means.

    -Matthew: Matt 9-10: Like the other original apostles, Matthew personally accompanied Jesus for three years; so his record constitutes eyewitness testimony of Jesus' miracles. Furthermore, he himself did miracles by the power Jesus gave the apostles.
    -Matt 14: Every time the account says the apostles (or twelve disciples) were present, Matthew would have been included. In this case, he joined the other apostles in confessing Jesus to be the Son of God, because they witnessed his walking on the water.
    -Like Moses and Joshua, etc., Matthew was an inspired man who wrote part of the Bible, who was a personal eyewitness to miracles done by other inspired men, and whose work as a prophet was confirmed by miracles he himself was empowered by God to do.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:53 PM ET #4485

    -Luke: Luke 1: Luke wrote a history of the life of Christ and a history of the early church in the book of Acts (Acts 1:1-3). Regarding Jesus' life, Luke himself was not an eyewitness, but he served as an historian to record the eyewitness testimony given him by other regarding the miracles of Jesus. He himself was an eyewitness of many of Paul's miracles. As a historian, his reputation is well established.

    -John: John 20: John recorded the signs Jesus did so we can believe Jesus is the Son of God and we can have life in His name. Like Matthew, John was one of the original apostles. Having accompanied Jesus for three years, he testified regarding miracles he personally saw. And like the other apostles, he himself did miracles to confirm his own record.
    -John 21: John wrote his testimony of these events and testified that it was true.
    -1 John 1: He bore witness about what he and others heard, saw with their eyes, and handled with their hands.

    -Peter: 2 Peter 1: Peter claimed he (and others) were eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus, having heard the voice of God who spoke at the Transfiguration. Peter was also one of the original apostles. His record of Jesus' miracles constitutes eyewitness testimony. And he himself did miracles to confirm that God guided him in his writing.

    -Paul: 2 Corinthians 12: Paul claimed that the signs, wonders, and miracles he did confirmed his apostleship. Note that he claimed these miracles were done in the presence of the people to whom he wrote, so they would have known whether or not he did these miracles.
    -1 Corinthians 15: Paul specifically listed himself as an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection. Note that Paul's claim to do miracles and be an eyewitness was confirmed by Luke, who recorded many of Paul's miracles.

    All these men recorded in writing their eyewitness testimony of miracles that confirm Jesus' claims and the claims of Bible writers. As discussed earlier, these men fully meet the qualifications of valid eyewitnesses. Specifically, all of them suffered greatly for the faith they upheld, and many died at the hands of persecutors. Yet they never denied or compromised their testimony.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    -Luke: Luke 1: Luke wrote a history of the life of Christ and a history of the early church in the book of Acts (Acts 1:1-3). Regarding Jesus' life, Luke himself was not an eyewitness, but he served as an historian to record the eyewitness testimony given him by other regarding the miracles of Jesus. He himself was an eyewitness of many of Paul's miracles. As a historian, his reputation is well established.

    -John: John 20: John recorded the signs Jesus did so we can believe Jesus is the Son of God and we can have life in His name. Like Matthew, John was one of the original apostles. Having accompanied Jesus for three years, he testified regarding miracles he personally saw. And like the other apostles, he himself did miracles to confirm his own record.
    -John 21: John wrote his testimony of these events and testified that it was true.
    -1 John 1: He bore witness about what he and others heard, saw with their eyes, and handled with their hands.

    -Peter: 2 Peter 1: Peter claimed he (and others) were eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus, having heard the voice of God who spoke at the Transfiguration. Peter was also one of the original apostles. His record of Jesus' miracles constitutes eyewitness testimony. And he himself did miracles to confirm that God guided him in his writing.

    -Paul: 2 Corinthians 12: Paul claimed that the signs, wonders, and miracles he did confirmed his apostleship. Note that he claimed these miracles were done in the presence of the people to whom he wrote, so they would have known whether or not he did these miracles.
    -1 Corinthians 15: Paul specifically listed himself as an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection. Note that Paul's claim to do miracles and be an eyewitness was confirmed by Luke, who recorded many of Paul's miracles.

    All these men recorded in writing their eyewitness testimony of miracles that confirm Jesus' claims and the claims of Bible writers. As discussed earlier, these men fully meet the qualifications of valid eyewitnesses. Specifically, all of them suffered greatly for the faith they upheld, and many died at the hands of persecutors. Yet they never denied or compromised their testimony.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:54 PM ET #4486

    B) Testimony from other people who personally witnessed miracles.
    Thee following witnesses did not write their own testimony in the Bible; however, they did personally witness miracles done by Jesus or by Bible writers; and other Bible writers as historians recorded their testimony.

    -Jesus' mother Mary (Luke 1): Mary testified that she had no relationship with a man, but the angel Gabriel spoke to her and explained that Jesus would be conceived miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus would be the Son of the Highest, God would give Him the throne of David, and His kingdom would never end. The testimony of Mary and the angel confirm the reality of the Virgin Birth, which in turn validates Jesus' claims.

    -Joseph (Matthew 1): Likewise Joseph knew that he had not caused Mary to conceive, but an angel also spoke to him and explained that Mary had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. So the One to be born would save the people from sin and would be called "God with us." So Joseph's testimony and that of the angel again confirm the Virgin Birth.

    -The Shepherds (Luke 2): A host of angels appeared to shepherds at the time of Jesus' birth and directed them to Jesus. They said that He was the Christ who would be a Savior (v11). So the testimony of the shepherds and of the angels confirms that Jesus was the Christ sent by God. Note that, at the time of these events, the shepherds widely broadcast their testimony about what the angels had told them.

    -John the Baptist (John 1): John bore witness that Jesus is the Son of God, because he saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove and remain on Him. This is John's testimony, not just as a prophet, but as an eyewitness to the miraculous events at Jesus' baptism.

    -Nicodemus (John 3): He said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him. So he testified that he knew Jesus had done miracles. 

    -Lepers who were healed (Matt 8; Luke 17): After healing lepers, Jesus told them to go show themselves to the priest. This was a legal requirement under the law: the priest would perform an elaborate examination to confirm that the leprosy was gone.

    -All Jesus' apostles (Acts 10): They witnessed His miracles, how He healed people because God was with Him. As a result, they often made statements that confirmed the validity of the miracles they had witnessed.

    -Multitudes who observed miracles: Jesus and other prophets did their miracles publicly where many people - often great multitudes - could openly observe them. Often the response of the multitudes constitutes acknowledgement of the validity of the miracle.

    -The converts on Pentecost (Acts 2): Peter openly proclaimed that this huge crowd knew that Jesus had done wonders, signs, and miracles among them. He said this was God's way of attesting to Him. Note that this testimony of Jesus' miracles was preached publicly just fifty days after His resurrection. The fact that 3000 accepted the message (v41) proves they knew they had seen Jesus' miracles. If there was no evidence for these events, the people could easily have said so and would surely not have been convinced by the message.

    All of the above people personally witnessed the events listed; they had no reason to lie. The events were recorded (many of them in more than one Bible account) calmly in a way that is evidently intended to constitute historic evidence. Remember that the Bible writers are historically trustworthy. We have earlier established their credibility as historians.

    C) Enemies who testified or witnessed miracles done by prophets of God.
    Men, who had true power to do miracles, were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who doubted or even openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the differences. We would not expect unbelievers to make a deliberate effort to spread the knowledge of Bible miracles. Nevertheless, opponents to the truth often, either directly or tacitly, admitted that the miracles really occurred or at least failed completely in efforts to disprove the miracles.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    B) Testimony from other people who personally witnessed miracles.
    Thee following witnesses did not write their own testimony in the Bible; however, they did personally witness miracles done by Jesus or by Bible writers; and other Bible writers as historians recorded their testimony.

    -Jesus' mother Mary (Luke 1): Mary testified that she had no relationship with a man, but the angel Gabriel spoke to her and explained that Jesus would be conceived miraculously by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus would be the Son of the Highest, God would give Him the throne of David, and His kingdom would never end. The testimony of Mary and the angel confirm the reality of the Virgin Birth, which in turn validates Jesus' claims.

    -Joseph (Matthew 1): Likewise Joseph knew that he had not caused Mary to conceive, but an angel also spoke to him and explained that Mary had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. So the One to be born would save the people from sin and would be called "God with us." So Joseph's testimony and that of the angel again confirm the Virgin Birth.

    -The Shepherds (Luke 2): A host of angels appeared to shepherds at the time of Jesus' birth and directed them to Jesus. They said that He was the Christ who would be a Savior (v11). So the testimony of the shepherds and of the angels confirms that Jesus was the Christ sent by God. Note that, at the time of these events, the shepherds widely broadcast their testimony about what the angels had told them.

    -John the Baptist (John 1): John bore witness that Jesus is the Son of God, because he saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove and remain on Him. This is John's testimony, not just as a prophet, but as an eyewitness to the miraculous events at Jesus' baptism.

    -Nicodemus (John 3): He said people knew Jesus was a teacher come from God, since no one could do the works Jesus did unless God was with him. So he testified that he knew Jesus had done miracles. 

    -Lepers who were healed (Matt 8; Luke 17): After healing lepers, Jesus told them to go show themselves to the priest. This was a legal requirement under the law: the priest would perform an elaborate examination to confirm that the leprosy was gone.

    -All Jesus' apostles (Acts 10): They witnessed His miracles, how He healed people because God was with Him. As a result, they often made statements that confirmed the validity of the miracles they had witnessed.

    -Multitudes who observed miracles: Jesus and other prophets did their miracles publicly where many people - often great multitudes - could openly observe them. Often the response of the multitudes constitutes acknowledgement of the validity of the miracle.

    -The converts on Pentecost (Acts 2): Peter openly proclaimed that this huge crowd knew that Jesus had done wonders, signs, and miracles among them. He said this was God's way of attesting to Him. Note that this testimony of Jesus' miracles was preached publicly just fifty days after His resurrection. The fact that 3000 accepted the message (v41) proves they knew they had seen Jesus' miracles. If there was no evidence for these events, the people could easily have said so and would surely not have been convinced by the message.

    All of the above people personally witnessed the events listed; they had no reason to lie. The events were recorded (many of them in more than one Bible account) calmly in a way that is evidently intended to constitute historic evidence. Remember that the Bible writers are historically trustworthy. We have earlier established their credibility as historians.

    C) Enemies who testified or witnessed miracles done by prophets of God.
    Men, who had true power to do miracles, were not afraid to do them in the presence of people who doubted or even openly opposed their teaching. At times they would deliberately do miracles in the presence of those who did false miracles, so that people could see the differences. We would not expect unbelievers to make a deliberate effort to spread the knowledge of Bible miracles. Nevertheless, opponents to the truth often, either directly or tacitly, admitted that the miracles really occurred or at least failed completely in efforts to disprove the miracles.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:54 PM ET #4487

    i) Indirect (tacit) admissions:
    -The Egyptian Army (Exodus 14): Moses recorded that Pharaoh's army pursued the Israelites as they left Egypt and caught up to them at the Red Sea. God caused the Sea to part, so Israel passed through on dry ground. Pharaoh's army, attempting to pursue them, was drowned in the sea. The fact that the Egyptian army entered the sea demonstrates that they recognized it had really been parted and that Israel had passed through it. The fact the entire army drowned when the sea returned demonstrates the power of the miracle.

    -Prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel (1 Kings 18): Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles. The false prophets attempted but failed to perform a miracle, which Elijah then obviously accomplished. The fact they could not do such a miracle and then were powerless to prevent their own deaths is a tacit admission that Elijah really did the miracle recorded.

    -Pharisees (John 9): Pharisees attempted to deny that Jesus had miraculously healed the blind man, but were completely unable to disprove it. Their efforts to disprove the miracle simply confirm its validity.

    ii) Direct admissions:
    -Pharaoh's magicians (Exodus 8): Pharaoh's magicians opposed Moses and tried to duplicate his miracles, but eventually they admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God.

    -Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors were idolaters. They witnessed the miracle when Daniel's three friends were protected by God in the fiery furnace. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like this.

    -People of Nazareth (Mark 6): The people of Jesus' hometown rejected Him, because they knew Him and could not believe such a great man could come from their own midst. Nevertheless, they admitted that "mighty works" were performed by His hands.

    -Pharisees (Matthew 12): The Pharisees said Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan. But in so doing, they admitted that Jesus really had cast out the demon. (Jesus then refuted their claim that the power was from Satan)
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    i) Indirect (tacit) admissions:
    -The Egyptian Army (Exodus 14): Moses recorded that Pharaoh's army pursued the Israelites as they left Egypt and caught up to them at the Red Sea. God caused the Sea to part, so Israel passed through on dry ground. Pharaoh's army, attempting to pursue them, was drowned in the sea. The fact that the Egyptian army entered the sea demonstrates that they recognized it had really been parted and that Israel had passed through it. The fact the entire army drowned when the sea returned demonstrates the power of the miracle.

    -Prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel (1 Kings 18): Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal to a showdown to see who had real power of miracles. The false prophets attempted but failed to perform a miracle, which Elijah then obviously accomplished. The fact they could not do such a miracle and then were powerless to prevent their own deaths is a tacit admission that Elijah really did the miracle recorded.

    -Pharisees (John 9): Pharisees attempted to deny that Jesus had miraculously healed the blind man, but were completely unable to disprove it. Their efforts to disprove the miracle simply confirm its validity.

    ii) Direct admissions:
    -Pharaoh's magicians (Exodus 8): Pharaoh's magicians opposed Moses and tried to duplicate his miracles, but eventually they admitted Moses did miracles by the power of God.

    -Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar and his advisors were idolaters. They witnessed the miracle when Daniel's three friends were protected by God in the fiery furnace. Nebuchadnezzar decreed that no other god could deliver like this.

    -People of Nazareth (Mark 6): The people of Jesus' hometown rejected Him, because they knew Him and could not believe such a great man could come from their own midst. Nevertheless, they admitted that "mighty works" were performed by His hands.

    -Pharisees (Matthew 12): The Pharisees said Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan. But in so doing, they admitted that Jesus really had cast out the demon. (Jesus then refuted their claim that the power was from Satan)
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:54 PM ET #4488

    -Council of chief priests and Pharisees (John 11): After Jesus raised Lazarus, even His enemies admitted He did many miracles.

    Surely none of these witnesses (and I could name more; just left the list at where I did) had any inclination to testify in favor of Bible miracles. None were friends of God's message or messengers - at least not till after they observed the evidence of the miracles. All of them would have denied and disproved the miracles, if they could have successfully done so. Because there were so many hostile witnesses who observed and scrutinized Christ, successful "fabrication" of miracle stories in His ministry would have been impossible. But in the end, none of them could successfully deny Bible miracles, and most of them directly or indirectly acknowledged the miracles. If the enemies of the Bible could not disprove these miracles at the time they occurred, how could anyone thousands of years later expect to disprove them? This testimony demonstrates the overwhelming power of the evidence that miracles really occurred.

    The Miracles at Calvary:
    Many things happened at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. These things would have been common knowledge to multitudes of people and if they were not true would have surely been disputed. Events such as the sky becoming dark in the middle of the day, the temple curtain being torn in half signifying that anyone who believed in Jesus had access to God, and a great earthquake: these events occurred and were witnessed by thousands of people. Matthew 27:54 says, "Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, 'Truly this was the Son of God.'"

    Jesus' Life, Death, and Resurrection Were Not Refuted:
    The writers of the NT were eye-witnesses of what they recorded. The fact that they wrote the manuscripts during the time the enemies of Christ were alive (and could prove whether the things they said were true or not) should be further proof that what was said/written was true. We don't have a record of any refutation as to the birth, life, death, or resurrection of Christ. The Bible says that after His death and resurrection Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    -Council of chief priests and Pharisees (John 11): After Jesus raised Lazarus, even His enemies admitted He did many miracles.

    Surely none of these witnesses (and I could name more; just left the list at where I did) had any inclination to testify in favor of Bible miracles. None were friends of God's message or messengers - at least not till after they observed the evidence of the miracles. All of them would have denied and disproved the miracles, if they could have successfully done so. Because there were so many hostile witnesses who observed and scrutinized Christ, successful "fabrication" of miracle stories in His ministry would have been impossible. But in the end, none of them could successfully deny Bible miracles, and most of them directly or indirectly acknowledged the miracles. If the enemies of the Bible could not disprove these miracles at the time they occurred, how could anyone thousands of years later expect to disprove them? This testimony demonstrates the overwhelming power of the evidence that miracles really occurred.

    The Miracles at Calvary:
    Many things happened at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. These things would have been common knowledge to multitudes of people and if they were not true would have surely been disputed. Events such as the sky becoming dark in the middle of the day, the temple curtain being torn in half signifying that anyone who believed in Jesus had access to God, and a great earthquake: these events occurred and were witnessed by thousands of people. Matthew 27:54 says, "Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, 'Truly this was the Son of God.'"

    Jesus' Life, Death, and Resurrection Were Not Refuted:
    The writers of the NT were eye-witnesses of what they recorded. The fact that they wrote the manuscripts during the time the enemies of Christ were alive (and could prove whether the things they said were true or not) should be further proof that what was said/written was true. We don't have a record of any refutation as to the birth, life, death, or resurrection of Christ. The Bible says that after His death and resurrection Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people (1 Corinthians 15:5-8).
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:55 PM ET #4489

    D) Historians and other miscellaneous references to Jesus and His miracles:
    i) The Disciples: One must also recognize the noble character of the men who witnessed these miracles (Peter, James, and John, for example). Such men were not prone to misrepresentation, and were willing to give up their lives rather than deny their beliefs. Also important is the fact that eleven of the twelve apostles died a martyr's death for no other reason than for being followers of Jesus Christ. If the death and resurrection of Jesus was a hoax, then these men must have known it, and would not have chosen to die such horrible deaths.

    Josephus (the first century Jewish historian), and Tacitus (an early second century Roman historian) make significant reference to Jesus. The mid-first century Roman historian Thallus makes reference to the darkness of the sun at the time of the crucifixion.

    Specific details in the Gospel accounts and the fact that first-century Jewish authorities acknowledged Jesus' miracles (John 3:2), adds weight to the case. Even so-called antagonistic sources, such as the Talmud and certain Islamic writings, allude to the miracles of Jesus. Then, finally, all attempts to refute the broad-ranging reports of miracles in the Bible have themselves lacked reliable documentation and credibility.

    Conclusion:
    We have now studied around 30 or so miracles described in the Bible, and many more could be discussed. These were done by God at the hands of at least ten different prophets. They were recorded by at least ten Bible writers in at least 15 books of the Bible. In addition, the accounts cite more than 15 individuals or groups who were opponents of God's people but who directly or indirectly acknowledged that Bible miracles really did occur. In addition another 15 individuals or groups (who were not necessarily opposed to the message) are also cited as having acknowledged Bible miracles. That makes a total of more than thirty individuals or groups who admitted Jesus or Bible prophets really did miracles. 

    Compare this to other religious groups who claim to be from God. Many of them make few claims of miracles. If they make some claims, they have no eyewitnesses and accounts are often legends recorded years after the event allegedly occurred. Or the events fail to measure up to the characteristics of Bible miracles, so those of us who disagree with their teaching can easily deny the validity of their "miracles" and point out where they fail to measure up.

    For example, compare Moses and Jesus to men like Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Everyone knows about the miracles of Moses and Jesus. People immediately associate the plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea with Moses. And they immediately associate Jesus with the virgin birth and resurrection. When people think of Moses and Jesus, they think of miracles. Mohammed and Smith also claimed to be prophets like Bible prophets, and they delivered writings and religious systems that they claim are equal to those of the Bible. But what miracles are associated with Mohammed or Smith? What miracles do you immediately think of when you think of those men, like the miracles people associate with Moses and Jesus?

    Muslims and Mormons rarely make serious claims that Mohammed and Smith did miracles to confirm their messages. If you press for examples of miracles, they may make a few claims based, not on eyewitness testimony, but on tradition or fables written years after the alleged events. Some claim that, one night, Mohammed was allegedly carried to Jerusalem and from there ascended into heaven to see wonderful visions. However, no one saw it happen. His wife says he never left the bed. There is absolutely no eyewitness testimony to confirm any miracles done by Mohammed. Whether friend or foe, the people who really saw the works of Jesus and His apostles, could not successfully deny that miracles were done. Their testimony becomes evidence on which we can base our faith. No religious group which is not based on the Bible can even approach the Bible evidence of miracles.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    D) Historians and other miscellaneous references to Jesus and His miracles:
    i) The Disciples: One must also recognize the noble character of the men who witnessed these miracles (Peter, James, and John, for example). Such men were not prone to misrepresentation, and were willing to give up their lives rather than deny their beliefs. Also important is the fact that eleven of the twelve apostles died a martyr's death for no other reason than for being followers of Jesus Christ. If the death and resurrection of Jesus was a hoax, then these men must have known it, and would not have chosen to die such horrible deaths.

    Josephus (the first century Jewish historian), and Tacitus (an early second century Roman historian) make significant reference to Jesus. The mid-first century Roman historian Thallus makes reference to the darkness of the sun at the time of the crucifixion.

    Specific details in the Gospel accounts and the fact that first-century Jewish authorities acknowledged Jesus' miracles (John 3:2), adds weight to the case. Even so-called antagonistic sources, such as the Talmud and certain Islamic writings, allude to the miracles of Jesus. Then, finally, all attempts to refute the broad-ranging reports of miracles in the Bible have themselves lacked reliable documentation and credibility.

    Conclusion:
    We have now studied around 30 or so miracles described in the Bible, and many more could be discussed. These were done by God at the hands of at least ten different prophets. They were recorded by at least ten Bible writers in at least 15 books of the Bible. In addition, the accounts cite more than 15 individuals or groups who were opponents of God's people but who directly or indirectly acknowledged that Bible miracles really did occur. In addition another 15 individuals or groups (who were not necessarily opposed to the message) are also cited as having acknowledged Bible miracles. That makes a total of more than thirty individuals or groups who admitted Jesus or Bible prophets really did miracles. 

    Compare this to other religious groups who claim to be from God. Many of them make few claims of miracles. If they make some claims, they have no eyewitnesses and accounts are often legends recorded years after the event allegedly occurred. Or the events fail to measure up to the characteristics of Bible miracles, so those of us who disagree with their teaching can easily deny the validity of their "miracles" and point out where they fail to measure up.

    For example, compare Moses and Jesus to men like Mohammed and Joseph Smith. Everyone knows about the miracles of Moses and Jesus. People immediately associate the plagues and the crossing of the Red Sea with Moses. And they immediately associate Jesus with the virgin birth and resurrection. When people think of Moses and Jesus, they think of miracles. Mohammed and Smith also claimed to be prophets like Bible prophets, and they delivered writings and religious systems that they claim are equal to those of the Bible. But what miracles are associated with Mohammed or Smith? What miracles do you immediately think of when you think of those men, like the miracles people associate with Moses and Jesus?

    Muslims and Mormons rarely make serious claims that Mohammed and Smith did miracles to confirm their messages. If you press for examples of miracles, they may make a few claims based, not on eyewitness testimony, but on tradition or fables written years after the alleged events. Some claim that, one night, Mohammed was allegedly carried to Jerusalem and from there ascended into heaven to see wonderful visions. However, no one saw it happen. His wife says he never left the bed. There is absolutely no eyewitness testimony to confirm any miracles done by Mohammed. Whether friend or foe, the people who really saw the works of Jesus and His apostles, could not successfully deny that miracles were done. Their testimony becomes evidence on which we can base our faith. No religious group which is not based on the Bible can even approach the Bible evidence of miracles.
     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:55 PM ET #4490

    ORIGINAL POINT:

    The disciples were only beginning to grasp God's truth and way. Not until they received the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost did they receive a more complete spiritual understanding and power. On the final night of Jesus' earthly life, just before his arrest and trial, Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper with his disciples. He explained how the Pentecost miracle would occur in their minds - and can in ours.

    There is a reason why a miracle of understanding and faith must occur in our minds. We are what the Bible calls "fleshly" beings. We understand only what our eyes, ears and other physical organs bring to our mind. We grasp only human purposes and actions. But God is Spirit. His ways, character and purposes cannot be understood unless He grants us a miracle of additional understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9). 

    No matter how much evidence is produced, if a person doesn't want to believe in God he/she won;t. However, there is a lot of evidence that supports the truth of the Bible. God said: "Those who seek Me with their whole heart will find Me." (Jeremiah 29:13)

    Two popular religious writers, Kenneth Boa and Larry Moody, expressed it well in their book, I'm Glad You Asked. They said, "If God created the universe, there is a supernatural dimension to reality, and this means that miracles are possible." If God exists, does He have the power to interact with and alter any law of nature? The answer must be yes. To accept Jesus' miracles as myths or mere stories with a lesson and to seek natural explanations amounts to a tacit presupposition that God does not exist, or that he is unable to affect the natural world and, therefore, is removed from our experience.

    Belief in Jesus' miracles, then, rests on belief in God. As John Lafarge once said of miracles: "For those who believe in God, no explanation is needed; for those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."

    I could sit here and type day after day, showing countless ways in which God really does exist, sent His one and only Son, who died on the cross and rose in three days to save all of mankind; but if you do not believe in God, you must ask yourself; is there truly anything I (or anybody else) can say, prove, or show that would change your mind? I hope this helps.

    Thanks guys and hope everybody has a great rest of the day 
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    ORIGINAL POINT:

    The disciples were only beginning to grasp God's truth and way. Not until they received the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost did they receive a more complete spiritual understanding and power. On the final night of Jesus' earthly life, just before his arrest and trial, Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper with his disciples. He explained how the Pentecost miracle would occur in their minds - and can in ours.

    There is a reason why a miracle of understanding and faith must occur in our minds. We are what the Bible calls "fleshly" beings. We understand only what our eyes, ears and other physical organs bring to our mind. We grasp only human purposes and actions. But God is Spirit. His ways, character and purposes cannot be understood unless He grants us a miracle of additional understanding (Isaiah 55:8-9). 

    No matter how much evidence is produced, if a person doesn't want to believe in God he/she won;t. However, there is a lot of evidence that supports the truth of the Bible. God said: "Those who seek Me with their whole heart will find Me." (Jeremiah 29:13)

    Two popular religious writers, Kenneth Boa and Larry Moody, expressed it well in their book, I'm Glad You Asked. They said, "If God created the universe, there is a supernatural dimension to reality, and this means that miracles are possible." If God exists, does He have the power to interact with and alter any law of nature? The answer must be yes. To accept Jesus' miracles as myths or mere stories with a lesson and to seek natural explanations amounts to a tacit presupposition that God does not exist, or that he is unable to affect the natural world and, therefore, is removed from our experience.

    Belief in Jesus' miracles, then, rests on belief in God. As John Lafarge once said of miracles: "For those who believe in God, no explanation is needed; for those who do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."

    I could sit here and type day after day, showing countless ways in which God really does exist, sent His one and only Son, who died on the cross and rose in three days to save all of mankind; but if you do not believe in God, you must ask yourself; is there truly anything I (or anybody else) can say, prove, or show that would change your mind? I hope this helps.

    Thanks guys and hope everybody has a great rest of the day 
     
    Rostos
    Rostos
    Hall of Fame
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Feb, 2009
    Posts: 27785
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 5:55 PM ET #4491

    The usual crowd is back with not one shroud of evidence that God doesnt exist. As Smoothd said, its all anti God rather than proper atheism....

    Funny how people want evidence to believe, yet we are on a gambling forum where people who bet have no emprical evidence that games they bet on arent not fixed, yet still bet on games..

    Its amazing where different human beings put there faith into.......

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User

    The usual crowd is back with not one shroud of evidence that God doesnt exist. As Smoothd said, its all anti God rather than proper atheism....

    Funny how people want evidence to believe, yet we are on a gambling forum where people who bet have no emprical evidence that games they bet on arent not fixed, yet still bet on games..

    Its amazing where different human beings put there faith into.......

     
    Mikniks
    Mikniks
    Veteran
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Nov, 2010
    Posts: 1384
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 6:13 PM ET #4492

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    The usual crowd is back with not one shroud of evidence that God doesnt exist. As Smoothd said, its all anti God rather than proper atheism....

    Funny how people want evidence to believe, yet we are on a gambling forum where people who bet have no emprical evidence that games they bet on arent not fixed, yet still bet on games..

    Its amazing where different human beings put there faith into.......



    Ehh, that's not really the same.  I think people hope the games aren't fixed.  I doubt they have faith that they aren't, but even if games are fixed, you'll probably be on the right side about half the time, so it's pointless to concern yourself with fixes.  People just like thinking they got screwed somehow lol

    By the way, I blame that guy "yesterday" for starting this up again.  This needs to go away.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    The usual crowd is back with not one shroud of evidence that God doesnt exist. As Smoothd said, its all anti God rather than proper atheism....

    Funny how people want evidence to believe, yet we are on a gambling forum where people who bet have no emprical evidence that games they bet on arent not fixed, yet still bet on games..

    Its amazing where different human beings put there faith into.......



    Ehh, that's not really the same.  I think people hope the games aren't fixed.  I doubt they have faith that they aren't, but even if games are fixed, you'll probably be on the right side about half the time, so it's pointless to concern yourself with fixes.  People just like thinking they got screwed somehow lol

    By the way, I blame that guy "yesterday" for starting this up again.  This needs to go away.
     
    Rostos
    Rostos
    Hall of Fame
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Feb, 2009
    Posts: 27785
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 6:22 PM ET #4493

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



    Ehh, that's not really the same.  I think people hope the games aren't fixed.  I doubt they have faith that they aren't, but even if games are fixed, you'll probably be on the right side about half the time, so it's pointless to concern yourself with fixes.  People just like thinking they got screwed somehow lol

    By the way, I blame that guy "yesterday" for starting this up again.  This needs to go away.

    Alot of people in the NBA forum for example, do alot of research, look at trends, players in and out, scheduling, refs etc etc, based on this research, they have an opinion and then bet based on this opinion.....

    All this research gets thrown out the window if the game is tampered with.

    But they still place there bets based on the research they did, they place it on "good faith" that the game is going to be played and officiated correctly with no tampering. But they have no evidence that the game is not going to be tampered with, but still place the bet.

    Look at how much faith they place in david Stern.....Tim donaghy was caught tampering games, he was caught by pure accident by the FBI that was investigating another completely different case. Yet Stern afterwards comes out and says no other refs are cheating. How does he know? The NBA's internal controls never detected fraudulent behaviour by Donaghy, if it wasnt for a piece of luck by the FBI, then Donaghy would still be out there tampering games.....

    The gamblers in the NBA forum have faith and trust in David Stern when he said no other refs are cheating, that is why they place there bets......They have faith and trust that no other refs are tampering games.......They dont have emprical evidence that they dont tamper games but have faith that they dont.....

    Different people put there faith into different things.....

     

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikniks:



    Ehh, that's not really the same.  I think people hope the games aren't fixed.  I doubt they have faith that they aren't, but even if games are fixed, you'll probably be on the right side about half the time, so it's pointless to concern yourself with fixes.  People just like thinking they got screwed somehow lol

    By the way, I blame that guy "yesterday" for starting this up again.  This needs to go away.

    Alot of people in the NBA forum for example, do alot of research, look at trends, players in and out, scheduling, refs etc etc, based on this research, they have an opinion and then bet based on this opinion.....

    All this research gets thrown out the window if the game is tampered with.

    But they still place there bets based on the research they did, they place it on "good faith" that the game is going to be played and officiated correctly with no tampering. But they have no evidence that the game is not going to be tampered with, but still place the bet.

    Look at how much faith they place in david Stern.....Tim donaghy was caught tampering games, he was caught by pure accident by the FBI that was investigating another completely different case. Yet Stern afterwards comes out and says no other refs are cheating. How does he know? The NBA's internal controls never detected fraudulent behaviour by Donaghy, if it wasnt for a piece of luck by the FBI, then Donaghy would still be out there tampering games.....

    The gamblers in the NBA forum have faith and trust in David Stern when he said no other refs are cheating, that is why they place there bets......They have faith and trust that no other refs are tampering games.......They dont have emprical evidence that they dont tamper games but have faith that they dont.....

    Different people put there faith into different things.....

     

     
    BigJeezy70
    BigJeezy70
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Jul, 2010
    Posts: 307
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 6:59 PM ET #4494

    I wouldn't say that in gambling we are putting our faith in anything.  It's called GAMBLING.  Religion is completely different.  As an athiest, I don't have to prove anything to you.  As a christian, you don't have to prove anything to me.  Neither side has proof!!!  Don't try to push your god onto us.  Believe what you want to believe.  I will do the same.

     

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User

    I wouldn't say that in gambling we are putting our faith in anything.  It's called GAMBLING.  Religion is completely different.  As an athiest, I don't have to prove anything to you.  As a christian, you don't have to prove anything to me.  Neither side has proof!!!  Don't try to push your god onto us.  Believe what you want to believe.  I will do the same.

     

     
    Wayne317
    Wayne317
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2011
    Posts: 295
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 8:18 PM ET #4495

    This is just part 1 of my response to  Rostos. I'm red font.

    So, now you are saying that God should have done it differently? How do you know how Gods should act? What standard or basis do you have to compare this against? How do you know how he should have done it? Your answer will be nothing but speculation as you have no "manual" on how God should act.

     

     

    No, I’m saying the people who made up your God had great imaginations. However their stories when taken literally (as you have for some strange reason)  make no sense at all.

     

    There is a difference between someone NOT HEARING about the gospel at all and someone that does but rejectes it, ie, rejects Christ and chooses another religion. As i stated, God judges righteously.

     

    So your God is going to judge someone for using the brain that he apparently gave them? That’s what you are saying, assuming that person’s beliefs was their choice and they chose another religion or none at all.  Jesus says there is no way except through him. Your religion rewards for nothing other than unreasonable gullibility.

     

    In my view, your responses didnt refue anything. The scripture states that God judges righteously. End of discussion.

     

    The oh to typical “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” No thinking required.

     

     if one has never heard of the Gospel, God doesnt send them to hell for not accepting Christ. This is a typical atheist misconception that fails..

     

    Well if that’s true that the only thing reasonable I’ve ever heard about your God. So I guess it’s my best interest not to introduce Christian to my kids because I’m pretty sure they won’t believe that nonsense either. But you have to wonder why missionaries would go to the depths of Africa and other places to spread the good news when those people spots in heaven are already sealed if they never heard the Gospel?  That just opens the door for hell to those people. How evil is that? 

     

    It has EVERYTHING to do with sin. That was the reason why Christ was crucified. It has everything to do with morality. I love how you try and degrade my God into a magical figure, i can already tell you are more anti God charged with emotion. I dont know why you keep on making judgements about who gets to go to heavan and who doesnt. Christ says many times there is ONLY one judge. I havent told anyone here if they are going to heavan to hell, yet you seem to think you can.

     

     

    Well plenty of your kind do, at least they have the balls to do so. As loony as they are at least westboro Baptist keeps it real.

    So your not a sinner?  You have already used Gods name in vain, so straight away you have sinned and backed that up with a lie claiming that you have never sinned. 

     

    LOL, I think I’m going to start calling you Buzz light year. Do you know why? Because before Buzz with bitch slapped with truth he really thought he was a space ranger. He really thought he had laser on his wrist that could damage people.  He talked about how he had to defend the universe against Evil Emperor Zurg.  Everyone else around him knew it was just a blinking flashing light and harmless and that he was just a toy.

     

     You think that your God is real and that doing something against the commands of this imaginary deity means anything. You live in a fantasy world and are completely  oblivious to the real beauty of it.

     

    Furthermore, you like most atheists seem to think that Chrostians can say " i will go and murder someone now, then after i do it, i will ask for forgiveness and all will be good". It doesnt work like that bud.

     

    No, I don’t think anyone plans to kill someone then says they will repent afterwards. That would be silly. But there are plenty of cases where people do kill people then claim to be born again Christians. The son of sam is an example. He claims that he’s forgiven. If he is, there is a possibility that he will go to heaven and it’s potentially possible the 1, 2 or all 5 of the people he killed could go to hell. I don’t see any ultimate justice in that scenario at all.  He got to live after the fact and make up for what he did wrong, but they did not. The fact that scenario exists even potentially  is sickening.


    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    This is just part 1 of my response to  Rostos. I'm red font.

    So, now you are saying that God should have done it differently? How do you know how Gods should act? What standard or basis do you have to compare this against? How do you know how he should have done it? Your answer will be nothing but speculation as you have no "manual" on how God should act.

     

     

    No, I’m saying the people who made up your God had great imaginations. However their stories when taken literally (as you have for some strange reason)  make no sense at all.

     

    There is a difference between someone NOT HEARING about the gospel at all and someone that does but rejectes it, ie, rejects Christ and chooses another religion. As i stated, God judges righteously.

     

    So your God is going to judge someone for using the brain that he apparently gave them? That’s what you are saying, assuming that person’s beliefs was their choice and they chose another religion or none at all.  Jesus says there is no way except through him. Your religion rewards for nothing other than unreasonable gullibility.

     

    In my view, your responses didnt refue anything. The scripture states that God judges righteously. End of discussion.

     

    The oh to typical “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” No thinking required.

     

     if one has never heard of the Gospel, God doesnt send them to hell for not accepting Christ. This is a typical atheist misconception that fails..

     

    Well if that’s true that the only thing reasonable I’ve ever heard about your God. So I guess it’s my best interest not to introduce Christian to my kids because I’m pretty sure they won’t believe that nonsense either. But you have to wonder why missionaries would go to the depths of Africa and other places to spread the good news when those people spots in heaven are already sealed if they never heard the Gospel?  That just opens the door for hell to those people. How evil is that? 

     

    It has EVERYTHING to do with sin. That was the reason why Christ was crucified. It has everything to do with morality. I love how you try and degrade my God into a magical figure, i can already tell you are more anti God charged with emotion. I dont know why you keep on making judgements about who gets to go to heavan and who doesnt. Christ says many times there is ONLY one judge. I havent told anyone here if they are going to heavan to hell, yet you seem to think you can.

     

     

    Well plenty of your kind do, at least they have the balls to do so. As loony as they are at least westboro Baptist keeps it real.

    So your not a sinner?  You have already used Gods name in vain, so straight away you have sinned and backed that up with a lie claiming that you have never sinned. 

     

    LOL, I think I’m going to start calling you Buzz light year. Do you know why? Because before Buzz with bitch slapped with truth he really thought he was a space ranger. He really thought he had laser on his wrist that could damage people.  He talked about how he had to defend the universe against Evil Emperor Zurg.  Everyone else around him knew it was just a blinking flashing light and harmless and that he was just a toy.

     

     You think that your God is real and that doing something against the commands of this imaginary deity means anything. You live in a fantasy world and are completely  oblivious to the real beauty of it.

     

    Furthermore, you like most atheists seem to think that Chrostians can say " i will go and murder someone now, then after i do it, i will ask for forgiveness and all will be good". It doesnt work like that bud.

     

    No, I don’t think anyone plans to kill someone then says they will repent afterwards. That would be silly. But there are plenty of cases where people do kill people then claim to be born again Christians. The son of sam is an example. He claims that he’s forgiven. If he is, there is a possibility that he will go to heaven and it’s potentially possible the 1, 2 or all 5 of the people he killed could go to hell. I don’t see any ultimate justice in that scenario at all.  He got to live after the fact and make up for what he did wrong, but they did not. The fact that scenario exists even potentially  is sickening.


     
    Wayne317
    Wayne317
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2011
    Posts: 295
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 8:45 PM ET #4496

    Part 2

     

    Again, you are more anti God

     
     

    Didn’t I tell you I was not anti God? I more than welcome the search for God/creators if they exist. What I don’t like is people who worship the words of dead men as God, like you do. You worship a man made compilation of books as God, instead of the actual creation (the universe) in short you are an idol worshiper.  I’ll show you that here shortly.

     

    . Hypothetically, lets assume God doesnt exist, is it bad to tell someone that they will go to hell and scare them if they steal, lie, rape, murder etc? Maybe if people acted more in accordance with the commandments, the world wouldnt be such a f###ing mess the way it is.......

     

    My first question to you is, how would you even know the difference? In most states in America we have some form of  the death penalty. Most Americans are Christians and believe in God and hell, and we are still violent and the death penalty or hell don’t serve any deterrent whatsoever.  So all you are doing is lying for the sake of lying, which makes no sense at all.

     

    You know maybe if people truly understood that this is the one and only shot at existence we will ever have, people might treat life just a little more precious than we have. If there were no promise of eternal life do you think those 911 hijackers or any suicide bombers would do what they did? They did it for the promise of eternal bliss, because their religion made this life seem so worthless, ugly and unworthy to the point where they couldn’t wait to leave.

     

    Who said anything about physically dead people walking up from there graves?

     

    Well it’s in the bible it’s part of the whole crucifixion and resurrection story. You do remember reading that part right?

     

    “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.”

     


    Now give me one good reason as to why I, a 31 year old man that lives in the year 2012 should believe that dead people rose from their graves?  To require people to believe this sort of thing is unreasonable. It’s magic, no God worth a damn would require people to go against every thing they know to be true to believe in stupid nonsense like that. Especially when we know as a fact that dead people have never gotten up from their graves anywhere outside of your (and others) book of magic. Why even give us brains in the first place if we are not supposed to use them?




    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Part 2

     

    Again, you are more anti God

     
     

    Didn’t I tell you I was not anti God? I more than welcome the search for God/creators if they exist. What I don’t like is people who worship the words of dead men as God, like you do. You worship a man made compilation of books as God, instead of the actual creation (the universe) in short you are an idol worshiper.  I’ll show you that here shortly.

     

    . Hypothetically, lets assume God doesnt exist, is it bad to tell someone that they will go to hell and scare them if they steal, lie, rape, murder etc? Maybe if people acted more in accordance with the commandments, the world wouldnt be such a f###ing mess the way it is.......

     

    My first question to you is, how would you even know the difference? In most states in America we have some form of  the death penalty. Most Americans are Christians and believe in God and hell, and we are still violent and the death penalty or hell don’t serve any deterrent whatsoever.  So all you are doing is lying for the sake of lying, which makes no sense at all.

     

    You know maybe if people truly understood that this is the one and only shot at existence we will ever have, people might treat life just a little more precious than we have. If there were no promise of eternal life do you think those 911 hijackers or any suicide bombers would do what they did? They did it for the promise of eternal bliss, because their religion made this life seem so worthless, ugly and unworthy to the point where they couldn’t wait to leave.

     

    Who said anything about physically dead people walking up from there graves?

     

    Well it’s in the bible it’s part of the whole crucifixion and resurrection story. You do remember reading that part right?

     

    “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.”

     


    Now give me one good reason as to why I, a 31 year old man that lives in the year 2012 should believe that dead people rose from their graves?  To require people to believe this sort of thing is unreasonable. It’s magic, no God worth a damn would require people to go against every thing they know to be true to believe in stupid nonsense like that. Especially when we know as a fact that dead people have never gotten up from their graves anywhere outside of your (and others) book of magic. Why even give us brains in the first place if we are not supposed to use them?




     
    EX4life
    EX4life
    All-Star
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2009
    Posts: 13235
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 9:00 PM ET #4497

    Wayne317, now respond to my comments on the previous page... thank you 
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Wayne317, now respond to my comments on the previous page... thank you 
     
    Wayne317
    Wayne317
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2011
    Posts: 295
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 9:31 PM ET #4498

    Part 3  This will be it for tonight, there is another part left but i'm tired and pissed the sixers moosed me..


    The bottom line is , you believe something pop into existence FROM NOTHING, (and you say i believe in a disney story).

     

    No I don’t. To say that is a lie. This is just my opinion; I don’t think there ever was nothing under the defection of that word that you are trying to give it. I think what you said there is a strawman argument because nobody would ever suggest that if you put nothing in a box and left there untouched that something would magically pop in there. That’s not what the big bang theory says. Btw that’s the first time I even mentioned the big bang, so where you got “you believe something pop into existence from nothing” is beyond me and nothing but a lie. I don’t know or really care where the universe came from; I just don’t believe your nonsense. Not knowing the answer doesn’t mean it’s the Christian God by default.

     

    (and you say i believe in a disney story).

     

    Because you do. This is how you believe the earth was created.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk2qkXlNQQE

    Then you claim that I believe something popped into existence from nothing? Mikey used an incantation spell in the same way your God apparently did. The only fact here is that both events never happened in reality.

     

     Things coming into being from nothing has never been observed and to think it can happen is ludicorous

     Agreed, so why do you believe it? Genesis basically says turtles, ducks, trees, ect.. All were poofed into the world instantly in their present forms perfectly adapted into the environments they were in from nothing, all at once.

     

    Furthermore, when something popped into existence from nothing, the rare of explansion was so precise that out of pure luck, a universe was formed. The rate of expnason if slower or faster than smallest of fractions would have meant there was no universe.

    Please site where you got this information from. I’ve never heard that although I have taken an astronomy (those evil liberal satanic educational institutions, I know) course before. Who wants to bet it’s a creationist/ Christian website or is just made up? I’m going to hold you to that too, I want to see where you got that from.

     “Then out of more pure luck, a lightining rod hit a pond causing life to occur.”

     For those of you who don’t know, he got this out of the movie “expelled” Ben Stein said this, Ben Stein is not a trust worthy source for this type of information, he’s not a scientist of any kind. Now please quote the academic source that also states this. Let me give the readers a hint, he won’t find one. You attack things you don’t even understand using arguments that don’t even represent what you claim you don’t agree with.  Your posts are maddening to read times.

     "And you say my story is a fairy tale.......”

     Man made from dirt? Check

    Woman made from rib? Check

    Talking animals? Check

    Women spontaneously  turning into salt ? Check

    Magic sticks that can turn into snakes and back into sticks? Check

    Magic hair that makes you strong? Check

    Zombies crawling out of graves? Check

     Did miss anything?

     

    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User

    Part 3  This will be it for tonight, there is another part left but i'm tired and pissed the sixers moosed me..


    The bottom line is , you believe something pop into existence FROM NOTHING, (and you say i believe in a disney story).

     

    No I don’t. To say that is a lie. This is just my opinion; I don’t think there ever was nothing under the defection of that word that you are trying to give it. I think what you said there is a strawman argument because nobody would ever suggest that if you put nothing in a box and left there untouched that something would magically pop in there. That’s not what the big bang theory says. Btw that’s the first time I even mentioned the big bang, so where you got “you believe something pop into existence from nothing” is beyond me and nothing but a lie. I don’t know or really care where the universe came from; I just don’t believe your nonsense. Not knowing the answer doesn’t mean it’s the Christian God by default.

     

    (and you say i believe in a disney story).

     

    Because you do. This is how you believe the earth was created.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk2qkXlNQQE

    Then you claim that I believe something popped into existence from nothing? Mikey used an incantation spell in the same way your God apparently did. The only fact here is that both events never happened in reality.

     

     Things coming into being from nothing has never been observed and to think it can happen is ludicorous

     Agreed, so why do you believe it? Genesis basically says turtles, ducks, trees, ect.. All were poofed into the world instantly in their present forms perfectly adapted into the environments they were in from nothing, all at once.

     

    Furthermore, when something popped into existence from nothing, the rare of explansion was so precise that out of pure luck, a universe was formed. The rate of expnason if slower or faster than smallest of fractions would have meant there was no universe.

    Please site where you got this information from. I’ve never heard that although I have taken an astronomy (those evil liberal satanic educational institutions, I know) course before. Who wants to bet it’s a creationist/ Christian website or is just made up? I’m going to hold you to that too, I want to see where you got that from.

     “Then out of more pure luck, a lightining rod hit a pond causing life to occur.”

     For those of you who don’t know, he got this out of the movie “expelled” Ben Stein said this, Ben Stein is not a trust worthy source for this type of information, he’s not a scientist of any kind. Now please quote the academic source that also states this. Let me give the readers a hint, he won’t find one. You attack things you don’t even understand using arguments that don’t even represent what you claim you don’t agree with.  Your posts are maddening to read times.

     "And you say my story is a fairy tale.......”

     Man made from dirt? Check

    Woman made from rib? Check

    Talking animals? Check

    Women spontaneously  turning into salt ? Check

    Magic sticks that can turn into snakes and back into sticks? Check

    Magic hair that makes you strong? Check

    Zombies crawling out of graves? Check

     Did miss anything?

     

     
    Wayne317
    Wayne317
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2011
    Posts: 295
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 9:35 PM ET #4499

    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    Wayne317, now respond to my comments on the previous page... thank you 


    It would take me weeks to wad though all of that garbage to disprove it all. But if you insist i will.
    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by EX4life:

    Wayne317, now respond to my comments on the previous page... thank you 


    It would take me weeks to wad though all of that garbage to disprove it all. But if you insist i will.
     
     
    Wayne317
    Wayne317
    Prospect
    Participation Meter
    Joined: Dec, 2011
    Posts: 295
    Posted: Jan. 30, 2012 - 9:45 PM ET #4500

    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    Alot of people in the NBA forum for example, do alot of research, look at trends, players in and out, scheduling, refs etc etc, based on this research, they have an opinion and then bet based on this opinion.....

    All this research gets thrown out the window if the game is tampered with.

    But they still place there bets based on the research they did, they place it on "good faith" that the game is going to be played and officiated correctly with no tampering. But they have no evidence that the game is not going to be tampered with, but still place the bet.

    Look at how much faith they place in david Stern.....Tim donaghy was caught tampering games, he was caught by pure accident by the FBI that was investigating another completely different case. Yet Stern afterwards comes out and says no other refs are cheating. How does he know? The NBA's internal controls never detected fraudulent behaviour by Donaghy, if it wasnt for a piece of luck by the FBI, then Donaghy would still be out there tampering games.....

    The gamblers in the NBA forum have faith and trust in David Stern when he said no other refs are cheating, that is why they place there bets......They have faith and trust that no other refs are tampering games.......They dont have emprical evidence that they dont tamper games but have faith that they dont.....

    Different people put there faith into different things.....

     



    Because having trust that the games are not fixed is the same as having faith is dead people got out of their graves 2,000 years ago. Yeah that's a real even comparison you have there.




    Reply
    Quote Post
    0
    Report User
    Quote Originally Posted by Rostos:

    Alot of people in the NBA forum for example, do alot of research, look at trends, players in and out, scheduling, refs etc etc, based on this research, they have an opinion and then bet based on this opinion.....

    All this research gets thrown out the window if the game is tampered with.

    But they still place there bets based on the research they did, they place it on "good faith" that the game is going to be played and officiated correctly with no tampering. But they have no evidence that the game is not going to be tampered with, but still place the bet.

    Look at how much faith they place in david Stern.....Tim donaghy was caught tampering games, he was caught by pure accident by the FBI that was investigating another completely different case. Yet Stern afterwards comes out and says no other refs are cheating. How does he know? The NBA's internal controls never detected fraudulent behaviour by Donaghy, if it wasnt for a piece of luck by the FBI, then Donaghy would still be out there tampering games.....

    The gamblers in the NBA forum have faith and trust in David Stern when he said no other refs are cheating, that is why they place there bets......They have faith and trust that no other refs are tampering games.......They dont have emprical evidence that they dont tamper games but have faith that they dont.....

    Different people put there faith into different things.....

     



    Because having trust that the games are not fixed is the same as having faith is dead people got out of their graves 2,000 years ago. Yeah that's a real even comparison you have there.




    All Forums | General Discussion
    «First Previous 180181182 ... 213214215 Next Last»

    Hot Forums IconHot Forum Topics

    • 🤢🥴💩_ Fubah's risky baseball bets _🥶😲🥵 445,784 Covers arrow
    • Tuesday 09/08/2026 977 Covers arrow
    • 🏈🏈🏈 Fubah2's risky CFB bets 253,247 Covers arrow
    • Couple thoughts 3,958 Covers arrow
    • 9/8 POD 🔥🔥???? 3,453 Covers arrow
    • Tuesday 2,834 Covers arrow
    • Breathtaking ....truly 20,479 Covers arrow
    • We have picked a terrible time to have the stupidest president ever 26,699 Covers arrow
    • Obviously the true face of the republican party 30,558 Covers arrow
    • PART DEUX 216 Covers arrow

    Warning - External Link

    Report User

    Thank you for reporting
    This content is abusive or harmful
    This post is spam
    An error has occurred
    This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.

    Delete Post

    Are you sure you would like to remove this post?

    Remove Thread

    Are you sure you would like to remove this thread?

    Scan Results

    Login/Register

    Happy to have you join the conversation. To do so, please login or create an account.
    Accounts are free and easy to create.

    Search


    Loading…

    Loading…

    About Us
    Contact Us
    Careers
    Our Team
    Brand
    Testimonials
    Betting Guides
    Sportsbook Reviews
    Betting News
    Podcasts
    Responsible Gambling
    Betting Sites
    US Betting Sites
    Canada Betting Sites
    Canada Casinos
    Best Betting Apps
    Contests
    Streak Survivor
    King of Covers
    Ultimate Race
    Office Pools
    The Covers community has
    810,221
    lifetime members worldwide
    Join our community today
    Covers 30 Years Logo Established in 1995,
    Covers is the world
    leader in sports
    betting information.
    21+
    Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER
    Help Privacy Terms of Service Cookies Sitemap Forum
    YouTube logo
    Facebook logo
    Twitter logo
    Instagram logo
    LinkedIn logo
    Google News logo
    Covers is verified safe by:
    Evalon Logo Logo GPWA Logo GDPR logo Logo GeoTrust logo Logo PCI DSS logo Logo
    Copyright © 1995 - 2026 CS Media Ltd. All Rights Reserved.
    If you choose to make use of any information on this website including online sports betting services from any websites that may be featured on this website, we strongly recommend that you carefully check your local laws before doing so.It is your sole responsibility to understand your local laws and observe them strictly.Covers does not provide any advice or guidance as to the legality of online sports betting or other online gambling activities within your jurisdiction and you are responsible for complying with laws that are applicable to you in your relevant locality.Covers disclaims all liability associated with your use of this website and use of any information contained on it.As a condition of using this website, you agree to hold the owner of this website harmless from any claims arising from your use of any services on any third party website that may be featured by Covers.