Posted:
#876
ah yes
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If Christ died on the cross for all of humanity
Posted:
#877
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
1. I believe with 99.999 (continuing to infinity)% certainty there is no god.
1. I believe with 99.999 (continuing to infinity)% certainty there is no god.
Now...I thought my 3 points were so obvious that they didn't need an explanation. It's like if I said to you, I believe that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, would you really ask me for proof of that? Of course not. It's so blatantly obvious that you would accept it as true.
So each point one at a time
1. "I am not hurting anyone or anything by saying things about god." Without being insulting, if I have to explain this, then this discussion is over. This is self-explanatory. My words don't harm people. The end.
2. "Furthermore, assuming, once again, that god exists, there is absolutely NO DOUBT that he is NOT all-good/kind/just, etc." This is also blatantly obvious. Aside from the fact that if you attribute all things in this world to god, then god is the biggest mass murderer of al time, we have the problems I brought up before. God punishes people for not believing in him while trying his hardest to conceal his existence. Additionally, my example to SJD proves this as fact if your god exists. Quick recap: we have 2 people, person A is a christian who always murders and sins but repents and loves god. Person B is an atheist who always helps people and is a perfect man, but he ridicules god and denounces his existence. SJD has told me that god will condemn Person B for all eternity. Simple logical reasoning concludes that a god that would do that is by no means all good.
3. "God is a spiteful asshole and if it were possible, he deserves to be damned to hell for all eternity." This is just me expounding on #2 so the same explanation applies.
And I know you're trying to conduct a rational debate, but please, do not question my use of logic. EVERYTHING I say is grounded in fact. I make sure of that before I say it. And I encourage you to do the same. Ground EVERYTHING you say in fact. Ex: the bible cannot be used as evidence because it is not factual.
1) You're saying that it is impossible for words to be a cause in which the effect is harmful to another?
2 [& 3] ) You are being contradictory. You're pretty much saying, if an All-Good/Kind/Just/Powerful/Knowledgeable entity exists, then it is not All-Good/Kind/Just/Powerful/Knowledgeable, etc. You needed to fix your premise.
But of course, I know what you are trying to say. And the arguments that you are making are quite elementary. The "God is a Murderer" clause, the "Punishing people for not believing clause". Is that it? Is that why your non-Christian? Because you couldn't figure out why those clauses are erroneous on your own? Fine then, we'll go over them together.
God is a Murderer Argument
People die because of God's will, therefore God is a murderer. Okay. So what
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Posted:
#879
Well, looks like I accidentally pressed "submit". Let me continue what I was saying:
God is a Murderer Argument
People die because of God's will. Therefore God is a murderer. Okay. So what is the key word here? "Murder". What does that mean?:
But what would be the conclusion of such a premise? There is no real way to tell. The argument is very shaky, filled with too many implicit notions, and a very unclear message. Are you saying, "therefore God does not exist?". Are you saying "anyone who kills someone is therefore evil"? Are you equating God with humanity and then subjecting him to such a kind of law? Are you calling God objectively evil, without stating the grounds for objective morality? The questions could go on.
This is not a very intelligent argument at all, and leads to no explicit conclusion. Let's look at the second argument.
God Punishes People for not Believing
This is just plain untrue. It's a gross misunderstanding of what Christianity is. It's like you've never heard of Christianity before. In fact, I'm wondering how you came to this argument? But I've heard it so many times (from teenage/young adult 'new atheists') that I'm wondering if people are indoctrinated into crafting horrible straw man and calling it the enemy.
Nevermind that. This is just a false premise. God does not punish people for not-believing. People are rendered according to their own works. But Heaven is only for perfect entities. We are not perfect. But the Christ is like, "I'll let you get in, just believe in me keep my commandments, of which the greatest is love". And those who believe in the Christ will enter through the narrow gate into heaven. Those who reject the Christ's offer will try and go through the broad way, and be rejected because they aren't perfect.
I can explain it in further detail if you want.
God is a Murderer Argument
People die because of God's will. Therefore God is a murderer. Okay. So what is the key word here? "Murder". What does that mean?:
mur·der
noun \'m?r-d?r\
the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
Now, can you show that God is doing this? Until you can prove that God is a "murderer", we can't really go forward. A more accurate step is to simply call God a "killer" (one who kills). If that's what you mean, then we can say God kills people. the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
But what would be the conclusion of such a premise? There is no real way to tell. The argument is very shaky, filled with too many implicit notions, and a very unclear message. Are you saying, "therefore God does not exist?". Are you saying "anyone who kills someone is therefore evil"? Are you equating God with humanity and then subjecting him to such a kind of law? Are you calling God objectively evil, without stating the grounds for objective morality? The questions could go on.
This is not a very intelligent argument at all, and leads to no explicit conclusion. Let's look at the second argument.
God Punishes People for not Believing
This is just plain untrue. It's a gross misunderstanding of what Christianity is. It's like you've never heard of Christianity before. In fact, I'm wondering how you came to this argument? But I've heard it so many times (from teenage/young adult 'new atheists') that I'm wondering if people are indoctrinated into crafting horrible straw man and calling it the enemy.
Nevermind that. This is just a false premise. God does not punish people for not-believing. People are rendered according to their own works. But Heaven is only for perfect entities. We are not perfect. But the Christ is like, "I'll let you get in, just believe in me keep my commandments, of which the greatest is love". And those who believe in the Christ will enter through the narrow gate into heaven. Those who reject the Christ's offer will try and go through the broad way, and be rejected because they aren't perfect.
I can explain it in further detail if you want.
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Posted:
#880
Quote Originally Posted by SYSTEM:
maybe you need to understand my question better and then answer it, and then I will respond accordingly...
maybe if I reword it...
according to the bible, the way into heaven is to repent and believe in JC
to me this means that everyone is created and goes through life as a test to see if we will repent our "sins" and believe in JC
now my question is, if this is true and so important, why doesn't this apply to babies that die, or people that can't mentally comprehend, or people that never hear of "god"?
The problem is that your assumption is false. Life is not some kind of test. What kind of religion are you believing in? That sounds like nonsense. Unlike that, Christianity is reality: life is life. You live it. Life isn't some test at all. Life is what you make of it. Because your assumption is false, your question becomes out of place.
Now, just to clarify, there is a time where everything will be judged, but you won't be judged on your life, you'd be judged on you, yourself. Everyone is judged on the content of their very being, their very hearts. You needn't live a few seconds or a thousand years, you needn't be a genius or mentally retarded, you needn't have grown up in a Church or in a cave in the Antarctic Tundra, all that matters is you, yourself.
Anyway, you're question is also a little confusing to me. Are you saying that babies cannot believe in God? Or that a mentally deficient person could not have faith? Or that people who have never heard of God could not come to the conclusion on their own?
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Posted:
#881
How can you say god doesn't punish people for not believing when I WAS JUST TOLD THAT GOD CONDEMNS PEOPLE TO HELL FOR RENOUNCING HIM AND BLASPHEMING HIM. I WAS JUST TOLD THAT BLASPHEMY IS WORSE THAN MURDER. These arguments are basic, yes, but they are the most effective because you, like so many others, are incapable of answering them.
If a perfect god exists, then he does not exist. That is not true. What is true is if god was perfect, the world would be much different. Therefore, either god does not exist or god is not perfect. Either way, the logical conclusion is that YOUR god is not the one up there. And I am not stating grounds for objective morality (because objective morality does not exist). I am saying that relative to the only world I have ever known, and relative to the christian description of god, if god does exist, he is a douche bag.
And please bear in mind, I am under NO OBLIGATION to prove anything. The concept of god is one that defies the laws we know govern this world. Therefore, you have the burden of proof. And as we both know you cannot prove the existence of god. I know through basic probability that there is a greater likelihood of god not existing than existing, so mathematically, I choose to make the correct decision by not believing.
I'm sure you'll ask me to explain EVERYTHING because your can't grasp these basic concepts, but once again, everything I have written is grounded in FACT based on empirical evidence or math.
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Posted:
#882
Kittykatz286,
Murder is worse than insulting God.
But Jesus himself said all sins can be forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy ghost.
So, since in God's eyes this one sin cannot be forgiven then this is worse then murder.
And keep in mind that many great men and women of God throughout history were at one time murders and some were even murders of Christians, before they repented of their sins and committed their lives to Christ!!!
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Posted:
#883
SYSTEM,
To answer your question in post #876.
Yes, Hitler COULD be heaven. But nobody knows this answer except for God himself.
Many would immediately say he is in Hell. I would lean that way based on his life's actions. If he didn't truly repent and get right with Christ before his death, Christ's teachings would lead me to believe that he is in Hell.
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Posted:
#885
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
How can you say god doesn't punish people for not believing when I WAS JUST TOLD THAT GOD CONDEMNS PEOPLE TO HELL FOR RENOUNCING HIM AND BLASPHEMING HIM. I WAS JUST TOLD THAT BLASPHEMY IS WORSE THAN MURDER. These arguments are basic, yes, but they are the most effective because you, like so many others, are incapable of answering them.
If a perfect god exists, then he does not exist. That is not true. What is true is if god was perfect, the world would be much different. Therefore, either god does not exist or god is not perfect. Either way, the logical conclusion is that YOUR god is not the one up there. And I am not stating grounds for objective morality (because objective morality does not exist). I am saying that relative to the only world I have ever known, and relative to the christian description of god, if god does exist, he is a douche bag.
And please bear in mind, I am under NO OBLIGATION to prove anything. The concept of god is one that defies the laws we know govern this world. Therefore, you have the burden of proof. And as we both know you cannot prove the existence of god. I know through basic probability that there is a greater likelihood of god not existing than existing, so mathematically, I choose to make the correct decision by not believing.
I'm sure you'll ask me to explain EVERYTHING because your can't grasp these basic concepts, but once again, everything I have written is grounded in FACT based on empirical evidence or math.
Don't get so emotional. Emotions have no place in logical discussion. (I assume your caps signify a frustration in communication). I do not care what you were told. All that matters is what is true. Keep your mind focused on truth as we go forward. We'll take each concern one at a time, to get you out of the unintelligent juvenile nonsense and into rational reasoning, logical coherency, and plain truth.
First things first. God does not condemn people to Hell for renouncing Him. People are condemned to Hell due to sinfulness (imperfection). People only get into heaven due to God's grace. One can literally believe in God and yet still be rejected. Let me provide for you an example:
The Gospel According to Matthew, 7:21-23 NKJV
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
I'm sorry, but we have to take this slow. You have displayed to all the posters here that you don't even know what Christianity is. So if you are with me, we can continue. If not, tell me what you're not getting.
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Posted:
#886
KittyKatz,
If the God of the Bible wasn't perfect, then everything he has ever claimed to have done, created, said etc. is all a lie...and that would also mean that his very own existence would have to be questioned as well.
Or in others words, if he isn't perfect in every possible way then he also doesn't exist.
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Posted:
#888
archsage,
You said "God does not condemn people to Hell for renouncing Him. People are condemned to Hell due to sinfulness (imperfection)."
If this is true, how do you explain Enoch in the book of Genesis?
Since Enoch got taken to heaven without dying, directly from the earth, then according to what you are saying, Enoch was perfect.
Cause, if he was imperfect he would be condemned to Hell. (I am going by what you stated, in my argument).
Because I believe that people do not go to Hell because of imperfection alone.
0
Posted:
#890
How does God's perfection having anything to do with babies dying?
I am not contradicting myself. I am using historical facts from church history about murder, then i am quoting Christ's words about blasphemy.
I think you might be confusing the word renounce? Cause I nor Christ never used the word renounce.
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Posted:
#891
I can't deal with you people. You nitpick at every word I don't choose perfectly. If you're in a debate, and a person clearly intends to say one thing, but the exact word choice might have a minute difference from the perfect word, do you really go attacking the word choice? and completely digress from the argument? Fuck you guys. Seriously. It's the only way you can justify your fantasy bullshit, by dancing around the issue and never addressing it because I don't know the right word to use to describe whatever it is you christians call blasphemy.
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Posted:
#892
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
How can you say god doesn't punish people for not believing when I WAS JUST TOLD THAT GOD CONDEMNS PEOPLE TO HELL FOR RENOUNCING HIM AND BLASPHEMING HIM. I WAS JUST TOLD THAT BLASPHEMY IS WORSE THAN MURDER. These arguments are basic, yes, but they are the most effective because you, like so many others, are incapable of answering them.
If a perfect god exists, then he does not exist. That is not true. What is true is if god was perfect, the world would be much different. Therefore, either god does not exist or god is not perfect. Either way, the logical conclusion is that YOUR god is not the one up there. And I am not stating grounds for objective morality (because objective morality does not exist). I am saying that relative to the only world I have ever known, and relative to the christian description of god, if god does exist, he is a douche bag.
And please bear in mind, I am under NO OBLIGATION to prove anything. The concept of god is one that defies the laws we know govern this world. Therefore, you have the burden of proof. And as we both know you cannot prove the existence of god. I know through basic probability that there is a greater likelihood of god not existing than existing, so mathematically, I choose to make the correct decision by not believing.
I'm sure you'll ask me to explain EVERYTHING because your can't grasp these basic concepts, but once again, everything I have written is grounded in FACT based on empirical evidence or math.
How do you know this?
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Posted:
#895
KittyKat,
Not sure as to why you got so upset. All I can go by is what you wrote down. This is such a poor form of communication so I can only go by what you write...sorry if I offended you. That wasn't my intent. Nor, will it ever be.
And I will try to clarify better.
Murder is just 1 of the 10 commandments obviously.
The New Testament says if we break one of the 10 (which we all have done), then we are guilty of breaking all of them!!!
So, according to God's point of view. Adultery, lying, stealing etc. is judged in the same way + by the same law (the commandments).
So, if I steal one thing, that makes me a thief.
If I tell one lie, that make me a liar. So, on. And so, on.
God judges all of this, the same way.
Also, Christ himself speaks about the judgment of murder and he takes it to another level in Matthew 5:21-26!!!
Murder just isn't a violent act committed against another. It is now viewed by God, as a heart issue of anger/forgiveness toward another!
Now, when Christ talks about that all sins can be forgiven, except for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, this is a very controversial subject by many.
What is Christ saying? What does he mean? Have not most people done this at least once in their lifetime?
There are several interpretations to his statement and would be happy to give what I know, if you want me to?
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Posted:
#896
Quote Originally Posted by KittyKatz286:
I can't deal with you people. You nitpick at every word I don't choose perfectly. If you're in a debate, and a person clearly intends to say one thing, but the exact word choice might have a minute difference from the perfect word, do you really go attacking the word choice? and completely digress from the argument? Fuck you guys. Seriously. It's the only way you can justify your fantasy bullshit, by dancing around the issue and never addressing it because I don't know the right word to use to describe whatever it is you christians call blasphemy.
I can't deal with you people. You nitpick at every word I don't choose perfectly. If you're in a debate, and a person clearly intends to say one thing, but the exact word choice might have a minute difference from the perfect word, do you really go attacking the word choice? and completely digress from the argument? Fuck you guys. Seriously. It's the only way you can justify your fantasy bullshit, by dancing around the issue and never addressing it because I don't know the right word to use to describe whatever it is you christians call blasphemy.
In logic, the words use define the very premise of an argument. If you are unable to use words to precisely state what exactly you mean, then that's your problem. In order for us to understand exactly what you mean, and then logically understand them in a coherent manner, the words you use must be exact. Thus is the nature of logic -- it's much more intellectually demanding than the conversational language of laymen.
Normally I wouldn't mind regular conversation, but the problem with regular conversation is that each sentence holds certain premises and logical statements both explicitly stated and implicitly referenced. In a logical argument, all premises need to be displayed out front to be examined for rational coherency. Of course, if you have a problem with reasonable discussion at this level you are by no means forced to participate.
Anyway, interestingly enough, you previously had two statements. It'd be no good to ignore them, each of your concerns warrants a response, whether you are willing to actually participate in thinking about the answers or not:
- If god was perfect, babies wouldn't die.
- And once again you contradict yourself. Renouncing god is unforgivable but murder is not? That's ridiculous.
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Posted:
#897
Quote Originally Posted by archsage:
The problem is that your assumption is false. Life is not some kind of test. What kind of religion are you believing in? That sounds like nonsense. Unlike that, Christianity is reality: life is life. You live it. Life isn't some test at all. Life is what you make of it. Because your assumption is false, your question becomes out of place.
Now, just to clarify, there is a time where everything will be judged, but you won't be judged on your life, you'd be judged on you, yourself. Everyone is judged on the content of their very being, their very hearts. You needn't live a few seconds or a thousand years, you needn't be a genius or mentally retarded, you needn't have grown up in a Church or in a cave in the Antarctic Tundra, all that matters is you, yourself.
Anyway, you're question is also a little confusing to me. Are you saying that babies cannot believe in God? Or that a mentally deficient person could not have faith? Or that people who have never heard of God could not come to the conclusion on their own?
The problem is that your assumption is false. Life is not some kind of test. What kind of religion are you believing in? That sounds like nonsense. Unlike that, Christianity is reality: life is life. You live it. Life isn't some test at all. Life is what you make of it. Because your assumption is false, your question becomes out of place.
Now, just to clarify, there is a time where everything will be judged, but you won't be judged on your life, you'd be judged on you, yourself. Everyone is judged on the content of their very being, their very hearts. You needn't live a few seconds or a thousand years, you needn't be a genius or mentally retarded, you needn't have grown up in a Church or in a cave in the Antarctic Tundra, all that matters is you, yourself.
Anyway, you're question is also a little confusing to me. Are you saying that babies cannot believe in God? Or that a mentally deficient person could not have faith? Or that people who have never heard of God could not come to the conclusion on their own?
My assumption is spot on according to the bible,,,
What is this bs, "christianity is reality. life is life" and then you say life is not a test, but you will be judged, but not on life but on yourself? your life is you...
where do you get this crap????
and no babies do not believe in god. people are not born with a belief, it is learned.
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Posted:
#898
Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:
SYSTEM,
SYSTEM,
To answer your question in post #876.
Yes, Hitler COULD be heaven. But nobody knows this answer except for God himself.
Many would immediately say he is in Hell. I would lean that way based on his life's actions. If he didn't truly repent and get right with Christ before his death, Christ's teachings would lead me to believe that he is in Hell.
so, he could be in heaven. does this sound ok to you?
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Posted:
#899
Quote Originally Posted by matt4000:
KittyKat,
KittyKat,
Not sure as to why you got so upset. All I can go by is what you wrote down. This is such a poor form of communication so I can only go by what you write...sorry if I offended you. That wasn't my intent. Nor, will it ever be.
And I will try to clarify better.
Murder is just 1 of the 10 commandments obviously.
The New Testament says if we break one of the 10 (which we all have done), then we are guilty of breaking all of them!!!
So, according to God's point of view. Adultery, lying, stealing etc. is judged in the same way + by the same law (the commandments).
So, if I steal one thing, that makes me a thief.
If I tell one lie, that make me a liar. So, on. And so, on.
God judges all of this, the same way.
Also, Christ himself speaks about the judgment of murder and he takes it to another level in Matthew 5:21-26!!!
Murder just isn't a violent act committed against another. It is now viewed by God, as a heart issue of anger/forgiveness toward another!
Now, when Christ talks about that all sins can be forgiven, except for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, this is a very controversial subject by many.
What is Christ saying? What does he mean? Have not most people done this at least once in their lifetime?
There are several interpretations to his statement and would be happy to give what I know, if you want me to?
you sound like ray comfort
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Posted:
#900
1. What I'm saying is if god was perfect, a lot of things in the world would be different. A lot of terrible things wouldn't happen. I was using babies dying as an example, that's all.
2. Please clarify the distinction between your position and SJD's position. SJD has told me that murder is forgivable, but blasphemy is not. You are telling me what exactly? And furthermore, if there is a distinction between your 2 positions, then what kind of religion is that where two people can follow the same beliefs and have different interpretations?
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